Stag vs Boulder All Road

[Brent Avery]

      Does anyone know if it would be worth spending the extra amount towards the standard model offered by Boulder in comparison to a Stag? I am on the light side at 140 pounds or so I desire a light, responsive frame which the Stag seems to provide. Beyond that is the "skinny tubed " version from Boulder albeit at double or more the price of the Stag. Money does come in to it to a degree but I guess it is more a case of price vs performance as well as aesthetics, and I do prefer a level top tube. I guess you can't have it all as the All Road is sloped. It will be my main bike so naturally I want it to be enjoyable to ride! Any thoughts or comments are appreciated.






         Brent Avery

          Vancouver, B.C., Canada

[jfrye]

As a Stage owner I'm very happy with the quality of construction and value of the Stag. I cannot speak to the quality or performance differences between the two. You can read more Stag owner reports in the "Rawland Cycles Owners Group" Google Group. In general Stag owner reports are very favorable. 

[Steve Park]

Get the one that speaks to you.  I hear the Stag is quite nice and I enjoy my All Road.

The Stag comes in 1 color and set sizes.
The All Road comes in 4 or 5 colors and can have custom geometry and tubes for a small upcharge.  Waterford welds and paints them, so the construction is very tidy.

I think the Stag lacks cable routing for a headlight..I don't know what else is different.

fwiw when you lump in the component cost, the Stag/AllRoad price difference isn't as huge a percentage of the total outlay.  I personally wouldn't make the decision based on the frame price unless I had to.

[Steve Park]

One more difference.... the All Road has a lot of braze-ons. 

All Road: 3 bottle cages, fenders, racks (front and rear), headlight wire routing, taillight braze-on, and some other downtube braze-ons for taillight wire routing, chain hanger
Stag: 3? bottle cages, fenders, chain hanger

more is less or less is more, you decide.

[Steve Park]

uh, or something like that. lessmorelesswhatever.

[Steve Park]

One more Boulder thought:
So I've ridden both the skinny tubes Boulder and the regular tubes Boulder a lot. They feel subtly different, and both are good.  Both bikes ride really smooth - comfortable, quick, easy to drive without much attention.  The skinny tubes flex a bit more when pedaling.  Both bikes ppppppppplane for me.  The standard tubes sort of give the bike a more bomber feel...a bit more solid over crap roads whereas the skinny tubes are more flexy in that situation - make sense? this is a ride-feel thing not a performance thing. 
This is a long way of saying that the Boulder upgrade to skinny tubes may or may not be worthwhile depending on how you like a bike to feel. 

On Tuesday, November 5, 2013 8:34:22 PM UTC-5, Brent Avery wrote:
     Beyond that is the "skinny tubed " version from Boulder albeit at double or more the price of the Stag. Money does come in to it to a degree but I guess it is more a case of price vs performance as well as aesthetics, and I do prefer a level top tube. I guess you can't have it all as the All Road is sloped.

[Steve Palincsar]

On 11/06/2013 02:03 PM, Steve Park wrote:
> The standard tubes sort of give the bike a more bomber feel...a bit
> more solid over crap roads whereas the skinny tubes are more flexy in
> that situation - make sense? this is a ride-feel thing not a
> performance thing.

"Standard diameter" is the skinny tubes. The larger ones are called
"oversize."

[Gregory Haase]

The Stag does have braze-ons for 3 bottle cages, plus a pump peg behind the head tube. It does NOT have anything for wire routing.

-G

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[Steve Park]

My bad.  Correctamundo'd.  Thx 

[Michael Mann]

Depending on your budget, I would also take a look at the Ocean Air Cycles Rambler (650b in most sizes). The Stag was a strong contender for me, but I could afford the Rambler and am glad I went that route. Skinny tubes, internal wiring, US made, and threadless steerer were all part of my decision process. Lots of other nice thoughtful details. Now that I have it built and on the road, it's proving to be a very sweet ride.

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[Distance Drifter]

I've been mulling over a similar debate. I have an rSogn set up for rando- fun ride for brevets and love the versatility to go camping when needed. Side by side- the rSogn and stock All-Road seem very similar tubing and geometry wise. My riding partner has an All-Road and have no problem keeping up (except when climbing but thats just me ;-)

 

I do, however, would prefer a straight top tube and am curious whether going to a Stag for brevets would dramatically change overall performance on long brevet rides. Despite the lack of braze-ons, the Stag with a custom poweder coat would still be cheaper that a stock All-Road. Taking the long game- I would save for a custom All-Road with a non-sloping top tube. Being a new family man, I may go Stag with custom paint.  

 

With respect to perfomance, I think they would be similar overall.

[somervillebikes]

I can't speak for the Boulder All-road, but I can say with certainty that my Stag is way lighter and more responsive than the 650B conversion that it replaces.  That bike was an 80s Japanese touring rig with 9/6/9 standard diameter tubing.  The Stag (XL) is 8/5/8 standard diameter, and my average speed has skyrocketed.  Very comfortable and quick on longer rides (although my longest ride has only been about 80 miles).  And on time-constrained shorter rides, I feel entirely unsatisfied, wanting to go farther.

Anton

On Wednesday, November 6, 2013 3:33:53 PM UTC-5, Distance Drifter wrote:

...am curious whether going to a Stag for brevets would dramatically change overall performance on long brevet rides

 

[Daniel]

Probably the other "off the shelf" frame in the price range to add for consideration would be the Box Dog Bicycles Pelican.

[Kieran Joyes]

Putting the Stag and the Pelican in the same price range is reaching a little, I think. They certainly could be considered to be in the same category, feature and design-wise though.

 

KJ

[Daniel]

To clarify: the DBD Pelican is $1400, which puts it in same price range as the Boulder All Road ($1435+), mentioned by the OP.

[Alex Wetmore]

From: Kieran Joyes <kjo...@gmail.com>

> Putting the Stag and the Pelican in the same price range is reaching a

> little, I think. They certainly could be considered to be in the same

> category, feature and design-wise though.

 

In a complete rando bike (with lights, fenders, handlebar bag and rack) the price difference is perhaps 20%, even if as frames alone the difference is 100%.

alex

[Kieran Joyes]

Yeah, fair point. I guess it would depend on whether a buyer was starting from scratch or already had existing parts and was only shopping for a frameset.

Seems like not matter what, with any of these options, you can't go wrong.

And didn't the Pelican go up to $1600? Thought I read that somewhere

KJ

[Daniel]

Yes, the ones built by Banjo are currently $1400 and the newer Winter-built framesets are $1600.

--

[William Lindsay]

....and once you are at $1600 it's just a hop and a skip to $3000 for a S&P frameset which comes with a nice semi-custom rack.  Those are sweet.  :-)

[Brent Avery]

 Thank you everyone for your input on various options - I have a Rivendell Bleriot and the Fuji 650b conversion I recently did ( posted here ) showed me what standard diameter tubing offered - at least for me. The 57 cm Bleriot - even with 42mm Hetres - has a less forgiving ride over bumps etc. than the Fuji with 38mm Soma B lines, enough that I prefer it over the Bleriot. My understanding is the 59 cm and up used even stouter tubing - it is a nice bike and handles well enough but the frames lack of any beneficial flex really makes it a pain on less than smooth roads. I have come to really appreciate the many benefits of low trail design.My plan is to sell the Bleriot frame and use all the parts on the Stag, I just need to purchase a front rack and bag and possibly have the Stag fork steerer threaded - although I have been thinking of staying with the threadless set up as there is more than enough length - I tend to have the handlebars a bit on the high side. The Stag appears to be the better choice partly because I do not have a lot of disposable income since retiring and  it would allow me two get the bag and rack - currently I am using a battery set up so the wiring issue is not that important - at least for now. I tend to do rides of 30 - 50 miles and I think the Stag will fill the need - can't deny the attributes of the Boulder All Road though I just feel that performance wise there would not be much difference, it's all subjective of course but the positive experiences of a number of Stag owners has me leaning towards purchasing one before they are gone. Being a limited run means I have to act rather soon.

[Mike Schiller]

But it's only a hop to something like the US built filet brazed Boxdog Pelican from the Taiwan Tig'd Stag... no skipping required.  

~mike

[William Lindsay]

SO MANY COOL BIKES TO BE HAD!!!!  I'd ride any of them

[Paul S]

Did you ever end up buying one? Been riding a Stag for the past season. Very satisfied with it, but bike ADD is kicking in. Boulder, Pelican, L'Avecaise is very alluring. I have a hard time believing they would be any better, but..........

[rcnute]

I tried a Boulder and had a Stag; seemed pretty much the same to me (maybe the Boulder fork felt a little better).

Ryan

[BA]

I'm very curious to hear more comparisons as well. Loving my second-hand Stag, but can't ride no-hands very much due to shimmy (which kind of negates many benefits of the handlebar bag).

Blake Anderson
Lincoln, NE

[Jayme Frye]

Blake,

What headset are you using? If it is a needle/roller bearing headset don't be afraid to tighten it down to give some resistance. This goes a long way to eliminating any unwanted shimmy and I've been told does no harm to this type of headset bearing.
The other suggestion I have is tire selection and pressure. My first experience with shimmy on the Stag was with a firmish sidewall 34mm tire at 50 to 55 PSI. I have since moved to a supple sidewall true 44mm tire that I run 32-40 PSI. Absolutely no shimmy and it tracks dead straight.

Cheers

Jayme Frye

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[Joel Niemi]

Also something to add to the mix is a Stag with a custom fork. Anton spearheaded a group deal (last ones being brazed now) with Jeff Lyon for a lighter fork, and for rreasonable add-on costs Jeff will do low-rider mounts and tabs for wires or concealed wires in fork. Puts the cost at halfway between stock Stag and l'Avecaise.

Regarding Stag standard braze-ons, mine doesn't have a chain hanger. It's listed in the features, maybe someone just missed it on my bike. Not a deal-killer.

My Stag build (shopping for components and doo-dads kept me busy while waiting for the frame to arrive) was less than cost of a custom frame. With 42mm extra-light Baby Shoe tires, it's the best ride I've ever had. Even though the frame color is blue and not orange.

Note that Sean is working on a Stag 2. Unlike Stag 1, he does not seem to be seeking design comments.

Joel Niemi

[Andrew]

Joel, I think that many of us had a chance to have input on rCOG last year about both Stag 2 and his intention to do an alternative fork for Stag 1 (which got interrupted by his illness and would probably not happen now that a couple of dozen of us have jumped on Jeff Lyon's alternative) , and Sean's probably seen the various discussions about the Jeff Lyon fork options too. He's giving quite positive teasers, and I'd assume he'd have looked at this key body of opinion (and probably the 650b and iBOB lists) given he's the one taking a business risk. If one looks at the evolution of Rawland's frames, they've got better. I hope the Stag 2 is good enough to tempt me up from the old one!

[Chris Knighton]

FWIW, my new large stag with handlebarbag on nitto m13 doesn't shimmy (at least not in the ~200mi so far). I have Miche primato needle bearing headset, compass babyshoe 42mm tires (35psi front, 40psi rear), and weight 140lbs. Can ride no hands no problem. Perhaps my weight plays a factor?

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[Ken Freeman]

Ryan,

Assuming you now own or prefer neither the Stag or the Boulder, what do you like to ride now?  What's better than both the Stag and the Boulder?

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[BA]

Jayme- I didn't intend to derail this thread into a discussion about shimmy, but that's one small performance feature that I'd be interested in hearing any first-hand experience comparing & contrasting the Stag with other frames - since most of us can't run down to our LBS and test ride them ourselves!

(P. S. Switching to a needle bearing HS is on my to-do list)

Best,
Blake

[Ken Freeman]

This thread is very interesting right now.  I bought a Terraferma frame and set it up as 650b, and rode it a few dozen times in the past 2 years or so.  It has never clicked into place for me, unfortunately, so I want a replacement.  I think there are two definite problems and one potential problem.  On the definite side is the tubing.  It's standard-diameter TrueTemper OX-Plat, which is 0.4 mm wall thickness.  While this should be a near-perfect planing bike (and Jan's review overflowed with praise for the planing and pedaling qualities), for me it does not feel more lively, more efficient, and as a better climber.  It does not make me "run my fastest and jump my highest," sad to say.  Not sure why, but it just doesn't.

Second problem is size.  It's just a centimeter more reach than my frames that work well.  I'm having trouble finding quill stems with short enough extensions to work decently.  I had the same problem trying to make a 22.5" Trek 620 (1983) work.  Not worth pursuing farther.

The third and unconfirmed problem could be the wheels, with Hetres.  They isolate very well and with their width, the bike will pedal through the rough or pulverized pavement at the edges of Huron River Drive (just a few areas, to be fair) almost as if they were good pavement.  But on the good pavement I find myself feeling labored as the ride goes on.  The rear hub is a White Industries, the front is a SON, and the rims are Australian Synergies.  No perceptible problems, it just all does not feel lively.  I've inflated at pressures from 35 to 80, and the experience ranges from soft and more sluggish, to rough and more lively.

But it still does not ever feel as good as my SL Mondonico with Challenge P-R 27 mm tubulars, or my ELOS Mondonico with 28 mm Conti 3000.  So I tend not to choose it.  Honestly, I tend to choose my 1984 Trek 610 first.

Maybe I just prefer 700c?  But why?

[rcnute]

My Elephant!  I'm just too heavy and/or not good enough of a bike handler for the skinny flexy bikes. I've tried four of them (Bielstein, rSogn, Stag, Boulder) and while I loved the responsiveness and comfort the bikes just never felt settled.  I did think they felt great when accelerating and going uphill.

For me the sweet spot is something like the old 531 Treks. I think the Elephant is .8/.5/.8 True Temper OS, but it feels much more sprightly (pretty close to the non-superlight standard tubed bikes) than my OS .9/.6/.9 bikes like the cSogn/Olaf/Drakkar.

Ryan

On Saturday, January 3, 2015 3:56:00 AM UTC-8, Ken Freeman wrote:

Ryan,

Assuming you now own or prefer neither the Stag or the Boulder, what do you like to ride now?  What's better than both the Stag and the Boulder?

On Thursday, January 1, 2015, rcnute <rcn...@hotmail.com> wrote:

I tried a Boulder and had a Stag; seemed pretty much the same to me (maybe the Boulder fork felt a little better).

Ryan

On Thursday, January 1, 2015 6:29:19 PM UTC-8, Paul S wrote:

Did you ever end up buying one? Been riding a Stag for the past season. Very satisfied with it, but bike ADD is kicking in. Boulder, Pelican, L'Avecaise is very alluring. I have a hard time believing they would be any better, but..........

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Ken Freeman
Ann Arbor, MI USA

On Saturday, January 3, 2015 3:56:00 AM UTC-8, Ken Freeman wrote:

Ryan,

Assuming you now own or prefer neither the Stag or the Boulder, what do you like to ride now?  What's better than both the Stag and the Boulder?

On Thursday, January 1, 2015, rcnute <rcn...@hotmail.com> wrote:

I tried a Boulder and had a Stag; seemed pretty much the same to me (maybe the Boulder fork felt a little better).

Ryan

On Thursday, January 1, 2015 6:29:19 PM UTC-8, Paul S wrote:

Did you ever end up buying one? Been riding a Stag for the past season. Very satisfied with it, but bike ADD is kicking in. Boulder, Pelican, L'Avecaise is very alluring. I have a hard time believing they would be any better, but..........

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[Distance Drifter]

Rider weight is what kept me from buying a stag. At 195 lbs I was concerned about the shimmy battle on a size large frame. This ultimately led me to a stock Boulder All Road. While discussing the build with Mike, I learned I was in between on tubesets- either superlighg std diameter or light OS could work. In the end, I received a combo of the two: std diameter top tube 6/4/6 and light os 8/5/6. The bike works great for me. Planes great while climbing and feels solid on descent ( think 20 mi descent on gravel roads in the cascades).

Needless to say, I'm excited about the upcoming stag 2. The refinements and change to 853 tubing will make it a very competitive option.

[Evan Estern]

I have little experience with the Boulder All  Road, but I have about 4000 miles on a Stag. The last 400 or so have been with the Jeff Lyon fork.  It's a great ride--every time I go out on it it's just a pleasure and the JL fork really takes it up a notch.  For me, the Stag never shimmied much and with a Miche headset adjusted just right, shimmy is almost non existent and not an issue.  Also, for a TIG welded, Taiwan frame, it's a very pretty bike.  If you are really cost conscious and source lots of used parts the Stag can be built up pretty cheap.  That said, I am so impressed with the with the Jeff Lyon Fork that if I was doing it again I'd spend the little bit extra and get a L'Avacaise built to my exact specs.  I'm probably going to do that eventually anyway, so starting out with the Stag may actually end up costing more than if I had just gone with a custom from the beginning.

[Eric Daume]

Any more information on the Stag 2? I was hoping for something along the lines of a disc braked rSgon.

On Sat, Jan 3, 2015 at 2:02 PM, Distance Drifter <shambha...@gmail.com> wrote:

Rider weight is what kept me from buying a stag. At 195 lbs I was concerned about the shimmy battle on a size large frame. This ultimately led me to a stock Boulder All Road. While discussing the build with Mike, I learned I was in between on tubesets- either superlighg std diameter or light OS could work. In the end, I received a combo of the two: std diameter top tube 6/4/6 and light os 8/5/6. The bike works great for me. Planes great while climbing and feels solid on descent ( think 20 mi descent on gravel roads in the cascades).

Needless to say, I'm excited about the upcoming stag 2. The refinements and change to 853 tubing will make it a very competitive option.

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[ejg]

My friend and riding partner rides a Boulder All Road and I ride a Stag with a Jeff Lyon fork. we both really like our bikes.
 Prior to buying a purpose built 650b, I converted a number of 700c bikes.
When I was riding conversions, I was constantly noticing or finding things that I didn't like in regards to ride quality. With the Stag, I kind of forget about the bike itself and can focus on just riding. 

We both love our bikes and while they are quite similar, there are a few differences. The Boulder has a sloping top tube, while the Stag is level. The Boulder is U.S. made and the Stag is manufactured in Taiwan (fork is made in Washington). The Boulder has provisions for wiring and the Stag does not. The Jeff Lyon forks had wiring provisions as an option. They are both built with 1" threadless steerers. The 1 1/8" stems work fine with a shim, but to my eye a 1" threadless stem would look better and at this point those need to be custom made (this comes next) 

That being said, The Boulder and the Rawland are built to do essentially the same thing and they both do it well. 

EJG (Jason)

[Evan Estern]

I was able to find a NOS 1" threadless (x 25.4) stem for my Stag on ebay for around $20.  It was made in the USA by Control Tech and it's really beautifully finished.  Maybe I lucked out, but I have a feeling that there must be more like it out there, if you are patient and keep looking.  The downside is that, unlike modern threadless stems, it has a single pinch bolt for the handlebars just like a threadless stem.  Looks great, but of course you have to remove the handlebar tape, brake lever, etc to take the bars off. 

[Kieran Joyes]

Here's one with a removeable faceplate. Looks pretty classy if you ask me!

$12 Control Tech stem

KJ

[ejg]

I have a nice Kelly stem with a single pinch bolt, but it's a little too long for me and now lives on my friends Boulder. Kelly still makes stems on a special order basis.

On Sunday, January 4, 2015 8:53:31 PM UTC-5, Evan Estern wrote:

[Paul S]

I am really having thoughts of doing a custom with Jeff Lyon.  Frame price is reasonable and tubing spec to fit me better (probably 7/4/7 and 7/5/7) seems like it may be worth it.  The Stag has been great, though.