FS - custom stem mount decaleur

[Mark Guglielmana]

A few 650b group members have asked about the decaleurs I've made for a few friends, asking if they're for sale. They are, but I've made a few small changes.

I'm no longer making the handlebar bag attachment side (is there a better technical term for this?), I'm designing them around the Velo Orange bag mount (maybe that's the correct term?). The VO mount is only $15, they're practially the same as the one's I've been making, and almost half of the one's I've made have been for those that have broken VO decaleurs. This allows me to concentrate on the other half. I'm selling the new version for $75 shipped CONUS, so your total cost would be $90, plus shipping from Velo Orange. That puts it smack dab in the middle of the incredibly inexpensive VO unit and the extremely nice and new design Compass part. Obviously if you already have a VO decaleur, you'll save $15. 

Mine has what I consider a potential advantage: I make them custom length to set your bag where you want it. The height is adjustable along the length of your stem. 

The material is stainless steel, not quite as strong as CrMo, but strong enough. They're fillet brazed using Harris 50 silver filler, which makes nice little fillets. Doing it this way means no paint and no chrome to add cost. The finish is satiny. 

If you're interested in one, contact me offline. 

Here's the backstory.

[Kevin M]

Do you have plans to produce a design compatible with threadless forks? If so, count me in!

Kevin
Madison,WI

[Mark Guglielmana]

I haven't made a 1 1/8" size yet, but I did make a jig for one. I figured it would be a natural, and could supplant the usual spacers in a threadless headset. 

The jig was made to drill out the stem piece at 73 degrees of the stem, and ~10 degrees apart. I braze the extensions in through those holes, cut the excess out with a hole saw, file and sand. 

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[ted]

Hey Mark,

Very nice. One question (asking here since somebody else might also wonder), how tall is the clamp on the stem?

Thanks
Ted

[ilter]

Hi Mark,
I too will ask here as someone else might be interested.. Are you familiar with the hack decaleur by Rob of OceanAirCycles? Uses ortlieb pannier hooks attached to the handlebar bag, so one needs a piece of bar that is perpendicular to the stem and is about a centimeter thick onto which the ortlieb hooks clamp. Rob used some drawer pulls, another version uses tubus rack struts. Can you make a variation of your decaleur where you have a third tubular bar instead of the long flat sheet of metal and the two short vertical prongs (is that what they're called?) ?
ilter in chicago

[Mark Guglielmana]

I kind of understand what you're describing, but it's not something I'm interested in making with any volume.

I guess my design is "semi-custom". To keep my costs in check, I do sub-assemblies several at a time. The stem clamp and extensions are made separately, and in volume so that setup time is amoritzed over several. The final assembly is trimming the extensions to a customer's required length, brazing them in, then finish work. 

If anyone wanted something different, I'd be happy to work with you, but it would be at significantly higher cost.

[Nick Favicchio]

I've used two of Mark's decaluers on 3 or 4 different bikes. They're perfect. IMHO it's the smartest design for a decaleur I've seen bc they transfer from bike to bike, build to build so easily and do the job flawlessly. I still remember seeing one on Mark's red Raleigh conversion a few years ago and immediately needing to have one :).

Get one. You won't be disappointed.

[Igor Belopolsky]

Mark why must you tempt me so!

[Daniel Jackson]

Mark,

These are great. Will you be making them in custom arm lengths?

Thanks,
Daniel

[Mark Guglielmana]

Daniel,

Yes, I make these in custom lengths. I make the stem parts and the extensions in batches, the extensions are made "long", then I trim and fit as necessary in the final brazing operation per customer order. 

Here's one ready for final braze:

Note that they penetrate the stem - this is per design, I get a good mechanical connection and higher wetted area at the stem that way. A hole saw is used to cut out the excess after braze, then file and sand. Here's one after brazing:

[Mark Guglielmana]

Nick was a big reason I started making these for other people.His enthusiasm is unknown to mankind. ;-)

On Mon, Feb 27, 2017 at 4:10 AM, Nick Favicchio <nickfa...@gmail.com> wrote:

I've used two of Mark's decaluers on 3 or 4 different bikes.  They're perfect.  IMHO it's the smartest design for a decaleur I've seen bc they transfer from bike to bike, build to build so easily and do the job flawlessly.  I still remember seeing one on Mark's red Raleigh conversion a few years ago and immediately needing to have one :).

Get one.  You won't be disappointed.

[Adam Kilgas]

I can understand the enthusiasm; it looks like a fantastic design, and count me interested in the 1-1/8" option as well! (As soon as I know what length I'll need...)

[donfu...@gmail.com]

how do I get one? Do you need a pic of the bag on the bike to know proper length?

[Joseph Kopera]

As an owner of a prototype Guglielcaleur I can attest they're extremely durable, keep an overloaded bag from leaping off the bike during the final descent of the D2R2 100K, and are quite fetching.

Joe
Western MA

[Tom Israel]

Mark,

This looks like a really smart product.  The semi custom design should make it work for almost all bikes.  I'm interested in purchasing a decaleur if you are making them for threadless stems.   Please let me know how to get more info and arrange a purchase.

Tom in Seattle

fau...@comcast.net

[fra...@tarremah.tas.edu.au]

Hi ilter

There's a few versions of decaleurs about that use the Ortlieb hardware ... so will add another to the mix.  I've got it on my Elephant NFE.

1 1/8 steerer tube clamp is an axiom 'trekk seat collar' ... http://www.axiomgear.com/products/racks/accessories/trekk-seat-collar/

It replaces 15mm of spacers.

I had it made by sir Tim of Velosmith (http://www.velosmith.com.au)

It's stable, removeable, plays nicely with the cables, and the tilt is adjustable.  And it works great.

Best, Frank

(I believe sir Haulin' Colin is also making something similar?)

[Mark Anderson]

Mark, you've put together a really great design and I will be reaching out to you after my Jeff Lyon frame arrives this spring. Thanks for sharing this information. Couldn't have been any more timely for me!

Mark Anderson
Liberty, Missouri USA

[Andrew]

Frank, that's a very clean setup. I'll have to talk to Tim about getting one brazed up for my incoming endpoint next time I see him. I already have the ortlieb hardware ready to go.

[Mark Guglielmana]

UPDATE: Started production, discovered that the new bag mount I received from Velo Orange is an "old style" with ~6mm pins. The newer ones have 5mm posts. I need a newer one to use as a jig to make sure the decaleur will fit snugly. 

I've contacted Velo Orange to see if they can rush me out a 5mm pin version. As soon as I get one I'll be able to fill the ordes I've received.

Mark

[Mark Guglielmana]

Another UPDATE!

Received word from Velo Orange, apparently the description for the bag mount was incorrect. Here's Scott at V.O.'s reply to my query:

"I did some checking- ie grabbed a receiver and the bag mount. The posts are 5.96 mm. The ID of the receiver mount is 6.21 or so.  These have all been this size since we switched to getting them made in Taiwan years back. The 1/4" size (6.35 mm in metric) was back in 2008/2009 when the racks were getting made in the US. Imperial size tubing was the easiest to get. When it switched to Taiwan, it went to metric sizes. 

The old style had the flat plate/bar that was welded to the posts. We kept the flat bar style when we switched over to Taiwan, so there is some overlap visually of styles for a couple of years.

We went to the current style- a rod with the posts welded to it, maybe 5 years ago? It was one of those running changes, but the post size stayed at 5.96 mm. 

I don't know why they are referred to as 5 mm posts, other then they are 5.96 mm in diameter. I'm going to change the description to 6 mm to more accurately describe the size of the post.

Sorry for the confusion"

So the pin size is either 5.96mm or 6.35 (1-1/4"). I had a bunch of receiver parts reamed out to a bit over 5mm, obviously they'll have to be reworked. If you want to order one, I'll need you to take a set of calipers and measure the one you have. If you don't have on yet, and are purchasing a new one ($15 from VO), it will be 5.96mm. Measuring with a tape measure or ruler just isn't accurate enough. 

Why not just make one that works with both, one might ask? Anybody that's had a bag fly off on a washboad road can answer that question. Too loose, you have the possibility of bag ejection; too tight, and the bag is difficult to remove. I fit the receiver to the bag mount so there's a bit of friction, but not too much. 

Mark

On Wednesday, March 22, 2017 at 9:16:31 PM UTC-7, Mark Guglielmana wrote:

UPDATE: Started production, discovered that the new bag mount I got from Velo Orange is an "old style" with ~6mm pins. The newer ones have 5mm posts. I need a newer one to use as a jig to make sure the decaleur will fit snugly. 

[Mark Guglielmana]

Finally, with all the info from VO straightened out, I'm starting production. With a bit more information, and some prototyping, I'm ready to offer the following options:

All with custom length for $75 shipped CONUS:

1" quill stem (22.2 ID) or 1-1/8" threadless stem attachments (bag side)

and either 

a) Velo Orange style handlebar bag mount (you supply the handlebar mount, has to be the VO for pin size and spacing)

b) Ortlieb style connector (you supply the Ortlieb hooks) 

Here's a batch of the stem parts, fresh out of the defluxing tank, ready to be made into decaleurs:

[Justin Hughes]

What's the stack height of the threadless one? Cool solution, but likely to tall for me.

Thanks,
Justin

[Mark Guglielmana]

20mm spacer height.

Sent from my iPhone

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[CJ Arayata]

This looks like an excellent and very-reasonably-priced option.

One question: What is the final angle of the bag mount? My current decaleur (a VO headset one that has broken once and rewelded locally) is set at 17-ish degrees, making it parallel to the stem and giving a 90-degree interface to the back of the bag.

[donfu...@gmail.com]

you are going to be busy!

[Mark Guglielmana]

CJ,

That's the way mine come out, I designed the jig around a  73 degree head tube angle so the extensions are parallel to the ground. I know that there's some variation between bikes, but this works +/- a few degrees.

You can see some mounted here.

Note that the "spread" between the two extensions is closer when using the VO handlebar mount. The ones I used to make had the pins a bit wider. 

On Thu, Mar 30, 2017 at 12:19 PM, CJ Arayata <charles...@gmail.com> wrote:

This looks like an excellent and very-reasonably-priced option.

One question: What is the final angle of the bag mount? My current decaleur (a VO headset one that has broken once and rewelded locally) is set at 17-ish degrees, making it parallel to the stem and giving a 90-degree interface to the back of the bag.

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[Mark Guglielmana]

1-1/8" threadless decaleur, open for business. Can do the bag end ready to accept your VO handlebar mount or Ortlieb style hooks

Also available for 22.2mm quill stems for your VO handlebar mount or Ortlieb system. 

Finished making up a bunch of the stem parts this morning, finished 3 decaleurs for current orders tonight, more tomorrow.

Contact me with shipping info, style, and stem to bag dimension for those who haven't already. When this bunch of stem parts are used up it'll be 3-4 weeks before I make some more.

[Brad]

Add me to the list of people wanting/needing one.
Standard quill stem variety.  Already have the V-O bag piece.

[Mark Guglielmana]

First bunch of this order is just about done. One is complete, the rest just need filing, sanding, and polishing. This is a good sampling of stem sizes, bag attachment styles, and extension lengths. 

[Mark Guglielmana]

Some are asking where to get the Ortlieb hardware. Anybody care to share a link?

On Sun, Apr 2, 2017 at 9:17 PM, Mark Guglielmana <mark.gug...@gmail.com> wrote:

First bunch of this order is just about done. One is complete, the rest just need filing, sanding, and polishing. This is a good sampling of stem sizes, bag attachment styles, and extension lengths. 

[Justin Hughes]

Mark,

Have you considered the Berthoud style connection? Seems like you are almost there in the pic. Braze a couple tabs to secure the tube to the bag and then cut the tube in 4 places where appropriate. It would be a lot sleeker and lighter than Ortlieb hooks and more secure than the VO style. You'd just need to source an appropriate connecting rod. 

Looking good. 

Justin

[Eric Keller]

On Mon, Apr 3, 2017 at 12:30 AM, Mark Guglielmana <mark.gug...@gmail.com> wrote:

Some are asking where to get the Ortlieb hardware. Anybody care to share a link?

I asked my LBS, Freeze Thaw Cycles, and they got the parts for me.  I'm sure the touring store has them or can get them if there is no LBS available.

Eric Keller

Boalsburg, Pennsylvania 

[Mark Guglielmana]

Here's the Ortlieb hardware links (special thanks to Ilter Saygin for sending them to me)

https://ortliebusa.com/product/ql1-short-top-rail-e170/

https://ortliebusa.com/product/ql1-top-hooks-with-inserts-e162/

[Andy Bailey Goodell]

​I have a half dozen pair of pannier hooks, new and unused, that might work for this purpose as well. Attached is an internet picture I found ​of them but I can take a better photo when I get home later if someone is interested.

$12/pair shipped PP-f/f

[satanas]

The Berthoud decaleur is deeply flawed in my experience.

It does not stiffen the bag adequately, and the brazed-on "studs" are not long enough to go through a desperately-needed full-width stiffener. The rod + miniscule safety pin fastener is fiddly, and one needs to be vigilant to avoid losing the safety pin; without the pin the rod can vibrate out and the bag can eject on rough surfaces.

There is also very little adjustment possible and the range of sizes doesn't necessarily fit much; Wallbike used to have plates with multiple holes CNC machined to solve this issue.

If it can be made to fit one's bike it will keep the bag *attached* if used properly, but it does very little to prevent the bag twisting and deforming; solid it is not.

IMHO, the Ortlieb hooks are vastly superior, much easier to fit and remove without fiddling, and the rail to which the hooks attach should stiffen the bag usefully; if not an alu strip inside should see things sorted. I can't sensibly comment on the VO option as I haven't seen or used it, but it cannot be worse than GB's.

By the way Mark, might there be something to fit 1" threadless at some point?

Later,
Stephen (who might also be interested, a bit later on)

[mitch....@gmail.com]

Hi Mark,
I'm very interested in your decaleur but my bags us the Grand Bois / Compass prongs (for a coupe bikes with the GB decaleurs). So I'm thinking about how to adapt your decaleur to the GB prongs. They're notablely smaller prongs than the VO and they might be closer together. Just curious if you've had anyone else ask about this? I might be able to use a sleeve to make the bigger VO tubes fit the thinner GB prongs.

--Mitch

[Nick Favicchio]

This thread makes me happy :). Glad to see more of these getting into the world.

[Alex Wetmore]

I've been waiting for someone to make this as a product for a very long time (ever since one was made in my basement by a friend 6 or 7 years ago).  Thanks for bringing it to market.

Ortlieb hooks make the best decaleurs, they are cheap, very secure, and don't rattle.

alex

---

From: 65...@googlegroups.com <65...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Mark Guglielmana <mark.gug...@gmail.com>
Sent: Saturday, April 1, 2017 10:24:55 PM
To: 650b
Subject: [650B] Re: FS - custom stem mount decaleur

 

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[Mark Guglielmana]

"...might there be something to fit 1" threadless at some point?"

Not in the near future. I may revisit this if there's enough demand.

Reason? The "secret sauce" in the construction method is the use of a special jig I designed to hold the stem piece in place while I drill two holes, angled 10 degrees apart, and both 17 degrees from perpendicular (90 -73 degree head tube angle). That way I slip the two extensions into them, braze in place, then cut and file out the excess inside the tube. This results in a very strong joint - the silver filler merely needs to wet both sides to transfer load, vs a butt joint if I were to miter the extensions. Add to that the complication of having to precisely miter the two tubes in a complex angle - that's the way chainstays are mitered if one has a vertical mill.

So 1" threadless, 1" quill what's the difference, one might ask? A 1" threaded steerer has a 7/8 stem inside of it (22.2mm). The ID of my decaleur is the OD of that tube (1"). A 1" threadless fork would require a decaleur in my style with an ID of 1", which would probably mean using 1-1/8" OD stock, and I'd have to create a design for that jig (free, I'm a mechanical engineer during the day) but have a machine shop make it (expensive, can't make it with enough precision by hand). Now if someone wanted to make me one in trade for a decaleur...

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[Alex Wetmore]

For $5 or less you can make this work with a 1" fork by making a shim.  There are commercial shims available for stems that can be cut down using a hacksaw, or you can make a custom one using 1.125" x 0.058" aluminum tubing.  Just cut out a 20mm section of tubing and then use a hacksaw to make a vertical slot.

alex

---

From: 65...@googlegroups.com <65...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Mark Guglielmana <mark.gug...@gmail.com>

Sent: Monday, April 3, 2017 9:02:41 AM
To: satanas
Cc: 650b
Subject: Re: [650B] Re: FS - custom stem mount decaleur

 

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[Mark Guglielmana]

From the picture, those look like they'd work.

[Andy Bailey Goodell]

Using a cheap shim with a fancy custom made decaluer will cancel each other out and both will turn into dark matter and vanish before your eyes.^{[citation needed]}

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[Mark Guglielmana]

Mitch, what's the diameter? I have to bore out the pin receivers anyways, might just work. If you're interested, the best way to do it would be to ship me one of your "prongs" to use for spacing and slip fit check, that way you'd be assured of them working.

[Mark Guglielmana]

Nick is "Patient Zero" on this project. I met him at the second BQ un-meeting. We split off from the main group when our eyes got bigger than our legs, and flew down a lucious, hellacious downhill with hella ruts* When we got back to pavement, he was cursing up a blue storm as his VO decaleur rattled his headset loose. He held back on the descent due to this. When he caught up with me he took a look at my setup and with eyes bugging out said something like "That's it! My decaleur!" For a second I thought I might have to mount back up and sprint away like a pit bull was chasing me down, then I realized he wasn't being literal. A few weeks later I shipped him one.

*I'm trying to channel Nick's unique way of writing, apologies to Nick if the vocabulary wasn't spot on...

[Mark Guglielmana]

Thanks, Alex! The design is pretty obvious, I'd be shocked if someone hadn't made one before. The key for me was the little light going off to make a jig for the stem. That allows me to pre-make a bunch of stem pieces assembly line style, then customize the length per order.

[Mark Guglielmana]

Good point! I think my mind didn't want to think of a shim, since I associate that with a kludge, but cut perfectly on a lathe, would be almost invisible. 

Yep, Alex Wetmore is always thinking...

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[satanas]

"So 1" threadless, 1" quill what's the difference, one might ask? A 1" threaded steerer has a 7/8 stem inside of it (22.2mm). The ID of my decaleur is the OD of that tube (1"). A 1" threadless fork would require a decaleur in my style with an ID of 1", which would probably mean using 1-1/8" OD stock,"

^ This is confusing! I presume that with 1 1/8" threadless the decaleur tube clamps to the outside of the steerer, and so has an ID of 1 1/8".

If this is the case, and 1 1/8" OD tubing would be used for 1" threadless, then couldn't the two tubes be fitted concentrically into the same jig? If so, only the current jig would be required.

I'm guessing the quill version clamps to the 22.2mm quill, not the steerer, since many 1" threaded steerer tubes aren't likely to have 20mm to spare. If it does in fact attach to the steerer then the presence or absence of threads isn't likely to significantly affect the OD of that tube.

Either way, I don't see why one of the existing jigs shouldn't do the job...

Later,
Stephen

[Mark Guglielmana]

Sorry to be confusing. To be clear, I have two jigs. 

One will accept a 1" OD tube. I chose one with a 7/8" ID, which matches the OD of a 22.2 quill stem. It won't work for a 1" threadless setup.

The other accepts a 1-1/4" OD tube, so I use a 1-1/8" ID type. I could use a sacrificial spacer tube, but if you model it out, the through hole would be near the very bottom of the stem piece (drill aims down at a 17 degree angle from perpendicular). This may be difficult to envision, but trust me to say it wouldn't work with this jig. 

I'm liking Alex's spacer idea right now...

[Stephen Poole]

Okay, gotcha.

[Justin Hughes]

On Monday, April 3, 2017 at 10:51:47 AM UTC-4, satanas wrote:

The Berthoud decaleur is deeply flawed in my experience.

It does not stiffen the bag adequately, and the brazed-on "studs" are not long enough to go through a desperately-needed full-width stiffener.

I didn't have a problem with my Swift Ozette with full width stiffener panel including proper fender washers to distribute force. 

 

The rod + miniscule safety pin fastener is fiddly, and one needs to be vigilant to avoid losing the safety pin; without the pin the rod can vibrate out and the bag can eject on rough surfaces.

 Pin clip or safety pin work for me. 

There is also very little adjustment possible and the range of sizes doesn't necessarily fit much; Wallbike used to have plates with multiple holes CNC machined to solve this issue.

Is that relevant to this discussion of a custom decaleur that has one position only? I'm just talking about a way to affix the decaleur to the bag. 

 

If it can be made to fit one's bike it will keep the bag *attached* if used properly, but it does very little to prevent the bag twisting and deforming; solid it is not.

YMMV, I guess. Never a problem for me since the bag rests on a proper rack and is affixed to said rack with Velcro straps on the bottom AND rack tombstone. 

 

IMHO, the Ortlieb hooks are vastly superior, much easier to fit and remove without fiddling, and the rail to which the hooks attach should stiffen the bag usefully; if not an alu strip inside should see things sorted. 

What's keeping you from using the same aluminum strip with the Berthoud style rod-in-tube?

[Justin Hughes]

I was thinking the hardware would cost more than that. And very reasonable $4.95 shipping. Nice. 

[Mark Guglielmana]

I just ordered a set myself. My commuter bike has a kludge decaleur, I plan on using this as a test platform. 

--

[Steve Palincsar]

On 04/03/2017 01:49 PM, Justin Hughes wrote:

On Monday, April 3, 2017 at 10:51:47 AM UTC-4, satanas wrote:

The Berthoud decaleur is deeply flawed in my experience.

It does not stiffen the bag adequately, and the brazed-on "studs" are not long enough to go through a desperately-needed full-width stiffener.

I didn't have a problem with my Swift Ozette with full width stiffener panel including proper fender washers to distribute force. 

 

The rod + miniscule safety pin fastener is fiddly, and one needs to be vigilant to avoid losing the safety pin; without the pin the rod can vibrate out and the bag can eject on rough surfaces.

 Pin clip or safety pin work for me.

I tried the paper clip supplied with the decaleur, but they fail quickly.   I purchased some of Ron's cotter pins and they are a perfect fit and splendid if you plan to leave the bag on the bike permanently, but I remove the bag after every ride and found the cotter pin was too small for me to easily get old of.  First time I removed it, I dropped it in the parking lot and then spent 15 minutes looking for it.  For me, the ideal solution is the Italian Cavallini Clipiola paperclip.  Easy to install & remove, large enough to grip easily.  And if you do lose one, there are 124 more in the box, and that only cost $7.50

[Harald Kliems]

On Monday, April 3, 2017 at 11:00:09 AM UTC-5, Alex Wetmore wrote:

Ortlieb hooks [...] don't rattle.

They don't? That's certainly not my experience with their panniers, even when used with appropriate hook inserts. 

 Harald in Madison (WI)

[Mark Guglielmana]

I'm wondering if the rack tubing diameter has anything to do with this...I've got a set on order so I can optimize this myself.

[Mark Guglielmana]

Here's the material list and cost to get the Ortlieb handlebar bag hardware:

[Mike Archie]

Hi Mark, could I get on the waitlist for one of these? The design you are already making is perfect for me. 1" quill stem compatible with VO bag mount.

archie

[Fred Blasdel]

On Mon, Apr 3, 2017 at 12:41 PM, Mark Guglielmana <mark.gug...@gmail.com> wrote:

I'm wondering if the rack tubing diameter has anything to do with this...I've got a set on order so I can optimize this myself.

5/16" tubing is a good match for the smallest size of Ortlieb hook insert (8mm) 

[Peter Adler]

Perhaps the tubing should be sized up, so you don't have to use the hook inserts at all. Anybody who thinks Ortlieb hooks don't rattle hasn't ridden with a pannier on a 10mm steel rack after the last of the stupid plastic inserts has broken or fallen out, leaving about 8mm rattling room. And then you have to pay $6 per pannier (4 inserts per set, 2 for 8mm rails and 2 for 11mm rails, so one pair is wasted) for replacement inserts to fix the problem. Until you lose/break the new set.

Ask me how I know about this. My local Ortlieb dealers have tired of letting me root through their installation leftovers for hook inserts.

Peter "I swear, if that rack doesn't STFU, I'm going to smash it against the edge of the curb" Adler

Berkeley, CA/USA

[Justin Hughes]

Securing the inserts with some sort of adhesive glue or epoxy is not a viable solution?

[Mark Guglielmana]

"I swear, if that rack doesn't STFU, I'm going to smash it against the edge of the curb" 

Gotta go wipe down my monitor, just spit a bunch of coffee on it ;-)

I sure as hell don't want anybody screaming out "I swear, if that decaleur from Gugie doesn't STFU, I'm going to smash it against the edge of the curb" 

So what's the ideal tubing diameter? It's easy enough for me to change the tubing diameter for that simple cross piece. I also have an Ortlieb setup on order, might hold up shipping that type until I have a chance to test it out myself. 

[Mark Guglielmana]

Might work, but seems like a kludge to me. I'd rather just nail the tubing diameter.

[Justin Hughes]

I was following Peter's tangent and making a suggestion to remedy his pannier malady. 

[Mark Guglielmana]

Ah, yes, that makes sense. He's got a current problem, I'm hoping to nip a potential one in the bud.

[Peter Adler]

Ortlieb's inserts are intended for 8mm and 11mm rails; the inserts hooks are for 16mm rails. So, 16mm or 5/8", I suppose.

On Tuesday, April 4, 2017 at 3:21:40 PM UTC-7, Mark Guglielmana wrote:

"I swear, if that rack doesn't STFU, I'm going to smash it against the edge of the curb" 

Gotta go wipe down my monitor, just spit a bunch of coffee on it ;-)

I sure as hell don't want anybody screaming out "I swear, if that decaleur from Gugie doesn't STFU, I'm going to smash it against the edge of the curb" 

So what's the ideal tubing diameter? It's easy enough for me to change the tubing diameter for that simple cross piece. I also have an Ortlieb setup on order, might hold up shipping that type until I have a chance to test it out myself. 

 

On Tuesday, April 4, 2017 at 3:17:00 PM UTC-7,Justin Hughes wrote:

Securing the inserts with some sort of adhesive glue or epoxy is not a viable solution?

Until you want to move your bag from your skinny expensive cro-mo rack to a fatter, cheaper aluminum one, and you have to attack your hooks with a screwdriver to lever the inserts out again. The solution is viable, but inelegant.

It's also worth noting that Ortlieb's plastic embrittles with age. In my very limited experience (a mix of six assorted Q1/Q2 panniers, one Ultimate 5 HB bag, one Ultimate 6), the small plastic bits (adapters, clips, adjusters) embrittle and break sooner than the bigger ones (rails, hooks).

And a man's got to know his own limitations. One of my limitations is that I can be very disciplined about building something up to the point where it's functional, but not yet finished/tidy/perfected. I'm that guy, the one who's run his main bike without bar tape for almost eight years, because I still haven't swapped the stem for the last time and I don't want to sew the elk hide bar wrap on until I've done that. Once it works, I start using it even though the last annoying issues haven't yet been resolved. But that means that the unfixed issues keep making me madder and madder, until I fix a whole bunch of them in an explosion of frustration. Rinse and repeat.

I suspect I'm not the only person like this. Anything that doesn't become an irritant in the first place is something I don't have to sulk about; an all-around good thing, IMO.

Mark's right. The liabilities to using a rail sized to fit the Ortlieb pannier hooks sans adapters are weight and aesthetics. I'm as much of a design queen as anybody, but no-frustration trumps prettiness.

Peter Adler

Berkeley, CA/USA

[Mark Guglielmana]

I can get 5/8" stainless tubing with 0.028" wall thickness, a 10" piece is about 2.5oz. 

On Tuesday, April 4, 2017 at 4:15:58 PM UTC-7, Peter Adler wrote:

Ortlieb's inserts are intended for 8mm and 11mm rails; the inserts hooks are for 16mm rails. So, 16mm or 5/8", I suppose.

[Harald Kliems]

The solution is not to use the inserts but to attach something to the rails, namely flexible PVC tubing commonly found in liquid computer cooling systems or aquaria. Example link: https://yacf.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=96412.0 I've never gotten around to actually doing this (and finding the right kind of tubing with metric dimensions can be a bit tricky in the US), but apparently it works well.

 Harald.

[Mark Guglielmana]

That sounds like a good solution-flexible, so you can squeeze it a bit for a zero vibration fit, and if it wears out, just replace it. I'll experiment with that as well!

[Fred Blasdel]

Anything that involves "squeezing" will prevent the hooks from actually being quick-attach / quick-release

I've recently tested prototypes in both 3/8" and 5/16" tubing, the latter is absolutely the correct diameter. The soft plastic inserts snap into the hard plastic hooks firmly and aren't going anywhere.

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[Stephen Poole]

If plastic tubing would work then so would duct tape, plus tubing would need to be split, then attached somehow...

[Mark Guglielmana]

Keeping on topic, it would be easy to slip plastic tubing onto a decaleur. 

Just trying to keep on topic.

[B o b K e a l]

I've used both cotton bar tape (on a Nitto Campee rear rack) and electrical tape (on a Tubus Tara) with Ortlieb hardware. Both worked well on very, very rough roads and trails. No loud rattle. Quick release still worked fine. I am certain both could easily be wrapped around one of these very smart and functional decaleurs.

[Jeff Bertolet]

I've had the issue with the Ortlieb inserts falling out as well.

It seemed like the problem was worst when the pannier was fully loaded. The weight flexed the hook open, and when you lift it off by the handle the insert fell out of the flexed hook.

A rattling decaleur would be a no go for me, but given the lower weight of hbar bags, it is much less likely the inserts would fall out.

The downside of larger tubing to eliminate the inserts would be aesthetic. Does the OS tubing look odd when paired with the rack/rest of the decaleur. If it looks too much like those dummy handlebars for computers/lights, I would rather use smaller tubing and inserts.

Jeff

[Mark Guglielmana]

Aesthetically, if the bag weren't on the bike, the larger diameter cross piece would look a bit out of place.

But when do we ride our bikes without the handlebar bag? The cross piece would essentially be hidden.

At any rate, a lot of thoughts and mind experiments, I'll have the hooks quickly and will try out all solutions, post pics, and give my recommendations. Since this is literally the last fabrication step, unless I see a show stopper, I'll offer it as a "customer option", so if anyone feels firmly one way or another, I'll oblige.

[Peter Adler]

I use cotton bar tape for spacer purposes, too (mostly out of retro-fetishism). It's problematic, because it's near impossible for a normal human being to wrap cotton tape tight enough that you eliminate compression. While the compressibility of the tape may be a good sound muffler, it's much harder to get a solid fit on top of a spongy surface.

Peter Adler

who now has to resolder a broken joint on an HB bottle cage on his Eroica bike, because he had the rear attachment point clamped to the stem reach over a bar tape spacer, and it slipped in

Berkeley, CA/USA

[Mark Guglielmana]

Twine'd and shellac'ed, of course!

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[Peter Adler]

22 gauge solid copper wire, actually. I bought it out of paranoia that the bottle cage might be stainless steel, and resistant to normal soldering techniques; I I figured I could wrap copper wire around the join, and solder that. It turns out that the cage was chromed, so the solder's holding (at least for now), and I jury-rigged the wire thing. The wire's expensive; I should at least get some use out of it.

Peter "all my problems are nails" Adler

Berkeley, CA/USA

[Mark Guglielmana]

Peter, would I be going out on a limb if I thought you might have learned that technique building wheels some time ago?

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[Mark Guglielmana]

Testing, 1, 2, 3...

Ortlieb hardware got here yesterday. I made up a decaleur with 5/8" (16mm) tubing as the cross piece. I also have one already made up with 5/16" (8mm) tubing. I reworked one of my handlebar bags with the Ortlieb bits and made a little test. 

Click on links for video:

First, 5/16" cross piece with Ortlieb hardware

I'd hate to ride with that rattling around

Next, 5/16" cross piece with Ortlieb hardware and 8mm plastic inserts

Just a bit of rattling, much improved

Finally, a 5/8" cross piece with Ortlieb hardware

Snug!

I'll make 'em any way you want, but if you ask me, the fat cross piece is the way to go. Thanks, Peter Adler for the idea!

[Scott Arenz]

This is a great thread and a super cool decaleur. Mark, would you still be willing to fabricate a 1" ID version of your decaleur (for use on 1" threadless steerers) if you had the jig for it? I looked at the photos you posted of one of your current jigs, and I could provide a similar one-piece unit CNC'd from 4140 steel, in trade for a decaleur. :)

It looks like you've already described most of the geometry earlier in the thread, so I would just need to know the diameter of the drill bit you're using to cut the holes for the extension tubes, and also how wide the opening on the back of the jig needs to be to accommodate the pinch bolt eyes. Just let me know!

Scott

[Mark Guglielmana]

Fire in the hole!

[Mark Guglielmana]

Kinda looks like one of those computer/light dummy handlebars to me, but it's secure as heck, and is hidden while in use. But I do get your point, and I can make it either way.

For pure aesthetics, the ol' constructeur method is pretty nice.

Different strokes for different folks.

Mark

On Wednesday, April 5, 2017 at 4:11:07 AM UTC-7, Jeff Bertolet wrote:

[Jason Goodman]

Hi Mark,

My name is Jason, co-owner of Swift Industries in Seattle. Are you still making custom decaileurs? Ive had customer get stuff from you in the past. I would love to be able to send folks your way.

Thank you for your time,

Jason

On Sunday, February 26, 2017 at 6:28:41 PM UTC-8, Mark Guglielmana wrote:

A few 650b group members have asked about the decaleurs I've made for a few friends, asking if they're for sale. They are, but I've made a few small changes.

I'm no longer making the handlebar bag attachment side (is there a better technical term for this?), I'm designing them around the Velo Orange bag mount (maybe that's the correct term?). The VO mount is only $15, they're practially the same as the one's I've been making, and almost half of the one's I've made have been for those that have broken VO decaleurs. This allows me to concentrate on the other half. I'm selling the new version for $75 shipped CONUS, so your total cost would be $90, plus shipping from Velo Orange. That puts it smack dab in the middle of the incredibly inexpensive VO unit and the extremely nice and new design Compass part. Obviously if you already have a VO decaleur, you'll save $15. 

Mine has what I consider a potential advantage: I make them custom length to set your bag where you want it. The height is adjustable along the length of your stem. 

The material is stainless steel, not quite as strong as CrMo, but strong enough. They're fillet brazed using Harris 50 silver filler, which makes nice little fillets. Doing it this way means no paint and no chrome to add cost. The finish is satiny. 

If you're interested in one, contact me offline. 

Here's the backstory.