Fast 650 B

[Carla Waugh]

Have any of you had a frame made for fast lightly loaded century type geometry and loved it? What makes you feel that it is a really fun bike? What did you have the builder do that might have been out iof the ordinary? This would be a frame for more road riding and general trails also a single speed.

[Greg Achtem]

I haven't, but others have.

Have you read this? http://janheine.wordpress.com/2012/08/07/a-versatile-performance-bike/

I'd like something like that one of these days.

On Tue, Sep 16, 2014 at 6:34 PM, Carla Waugh <lhtbik...@gmail.com> wrote:

Have any of you had a frame made for fast lightly loaded century type geometry and loved it? What makes you feel that it is a really fun bike? What did you have the builder do that might have been out iof the ordinary? This would be a frame for more road riding and general trails also a single speed.

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[Steve Palincsar]

On 09/17/2014 02:08 PM, Greg Achtem wrote:
> I haven't, but others have.
> Have you read this?
> http://janheine.wordpress.com/2012/08/07/a-versatile-performance-bike/
> I'd like something like that one of these days.
>
>

Jeff's advertising a new model, the L'avecaise "To Go" Randonneur for
650B, lugless fillet brazed (lightly filed) frame & fork in the new BQ,
design based on that very bike you linked to. Intro special starting at
$1700 frame and fork, a few 58s and 59s available now. Stock sizes
available soon, or custom sizes to order, 4-8 week delivery. If you're
interested, phone 541-476-7092 and do it soon. Prices can only go up.
A friend in my club has one just like the one in the blog entry and he
loves it. It's a beautiful bike.

[Mark Bulgier]

In case you don't know, Jeff Lyon is an extremely experienced and knowledgeable framebuilder.  He's got a good eye and his frames are aesthetically pleasing. High integrity, and a nice guy too. 

I've never bought a frame from him, because I build my own, but I've been to his shop and seen work in progress.  You can't hide much from another framebuilder who gets to see work at each stage of the process, so I know I can recommend him without reservation.

To say his prices seem reasonable is an understatement.  If he spent less time building and more time promoting his brand, he could charge a lot more I think. But don't tell him I said that!

Mark Bulgier
Seattle WA USA

[Steve Palincsar]

On 09/16/2014 08:34 PM, Carla Waugh wrote:

Have any of you had a frame made for fast lightly loaded century type geometry and loved it? What makes you feel that it is a really fun bike? What did you have the builder do that might have been out iof the ordinary? This would be a frame for more road riding and general trails also a single speed.

One of Mitch Pryor's 2011 MAP Randonneur Projecte bikes.  It's got that lovely descended-from-that-1952-Rene-Herse low trail geometry.  Of course, all of it's "a bit out of the ordinary," but especially so compared to most bikes is the 8/5/8 standard diameter tubing; you won't find too many 60 cm bikes made for someone who weighs 0.1 tons made with tubing that light.  The Randonneur Project design has evolved a bit since this bike was made: these days, they're bilaminate instead of lugged -- at least, lugged at the head and seat cluster; the bottom bracket on these bikes is fillet brazed -- and they've become a good deal more costly.  Actually, the fillet brazed bottom bracket is a bit unusual, too: fillet brazing lets Mitch move the chain stays out to the very edges of the bottom bracket shell:




which helps make room for the 42mm tires.  The chain stays are also indented and curved.

[Nick Payne]

On 17/09/14 10:34, Carla Waugh wrote:
> Have any of you had a frame made for fast lightly loaded century type geometry and loved it? What makes you feel that it is a really fun bike? What did you have the builder do that might have been out iof the ordinary? This would be a frame for more road riding and general trails also a single speed.
>

I had Darren Baum in Geelong build me a Ti 650b frame. It has the nicest
feel on the road of any of the bikes I own. I specified a few things to
the builder, such as the maximum tyre size I would be using, that I
would be using saddlebags for any load carrying, that I like the
handlebars a couple of centimetres higher than the saddle, and that I
wanted S-bend chainstays to provide heel clearance for my heels-in
riding stance, and I left all the rest up to him. I use it for day
rides, light touring, long distance Audax events, and even take it out a
couple of days a week with the local racing bunch on their training rides.

[Bruce Herbitter]

I enjoy riding an Ed Braley conversion and it is the fastest avg pace of my 4 bikes.  A Japanese built criterium racer with slender Tange tubing. Mustache bars, synergy wheels and Pari moto tires.  I put a compact double on it. Slightly longer than normal chain stays and sensitive steering. Ed commented on its quickness when he built it also.  I have V O lite pedals on it.  

Bruce. 

[somervillebikes]

I took delivery recently of a Jeff Lyon L'Avecaise built for centuries and gravel roads but haven't built it up yet so can't really comment on it. Jeff designed it with .7/.4/.7 top tube and .8/.5/.8 down tube, standard diameter tubing.

But a fast, small batch production bike in 650b is the Rawland Stag. I have one and it's the fastest bike I own. It climbs well and is wicked fast on descents. Mine is the XL size with .8/.5/.8 tubing.

Anton

[somervillebikes]

I should add that Jeff Lyon was a joy to deal with during all phases of the design. He had me hooked from our first phone conversation.

[Hoch]

Anton,

Is the L'Avecaise a replacement for the Stag?  I'm interested in how they both ride.  I think the Stag rides nice, but I wouldn't complain if the fork was a tiny bit more compliant.

[somervillebikes]

It was going to be a replacement for the Stag, for the exact reason you state-- the fork is indeed too rigid.  But the rest of the bike performs very well and I may end up keeping it as a minimalist fat tire bike.

Anton

[Hoch]

I see. Looking forward to your comparison/review. I love the Stag so I'll keep it in the stable, but Lyon's bikes look so cool!

[Jason Marshall]

Great topic.  A lot of talk here about the L'avecaise line.  These do look like nice bikes at a great price.  The non-custom tig boulder 650b s are about the same price.  What would be the differentiating factors that would push you into choosing one over the other?  

[Mark Bulgier]

Well I haven't analyzed the geometry or features of either bike, but I'd put a lot of weight on Jeff's 40 years of experience. Plus personally, I don't dig TIG so much. For mostly unimportant, subjective reasons -- I'm not saying the TIG bike will ride any different or be any weaker just due to TIG construction.

Keep in mind I'm biased – I'm Jeff's age, and us old guys tend to stick together.  And I know him a little, we've chatted a few times over the years.  His aesthetic choices are pleasing to my eye (de gustibus). 

Do we know who builds the Boulders?  That's not a veiled criticism, they're probably wonderful humans too, and plenty experienced, I just don't know.  What's their story?  Built by subcontractors not Boulder employees, correct?

Mark Bulgier
Seattle

[Alex Wetmore]

Boulder bikes are (primarily?) built by Waterford.

Jeff is a really nice guy and has always been kind and supportive of my amateur building, even before I knew I was interested in building.  I miss seeing him around Seattle, he doesn't visit as often these days.  I'd buy a bike from him in a heartbeat if I weren't building my own.

alex

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From: 65...@googlegroups.com <65...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Mark Bulgier <bulg...@gmail.com>
Sent: Friday, September 19, 2014 12:08 PM
To: 65...@googlegroups.com
Subject: [650B] Re: Fast 650 B

 

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[Ryan Watson]

Boulders are built by Waterford. 

The welds on mine are very smooth and have held up to six years of hard use, so I'd call it well-built :-)

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[somervillebikes]

Jeff's experience (40 years or thereabouts?), his offering of lugged or fillet brazed (with minimal filing) for the same price, his ability to make a beautifully curved fork, and the joy of being able to chat endlessly about details of my custom build with him are the few reasons I chose a L'Avecaise over a Boulder.  I considered the Boulder in one of the stock sizes, but it seems that my body specs call for an odd-ball size that is something of a mix between two of the stock sizes. When I inquired with Mike Kone about which stock size he thought would work best for me, his answer was none.  So now we were talking full custom.  The price was in the same ballpark as a L'Avecaise, and I had seen a L'Avecaise in person locally. Every aspect of it screamed of a bespoke custom frame, so the choice became instantly obvious to me. The glowing review by Jan a couple of years ago only reinforced my decision.

Jeff's price was so reasonable for a full custom lugged frame, that I felt justified to splurge for the more expensive Keith Andersen paint job, complete with hand-stenciled lettering and badges (also reasonably priced).  I don't regret the decision-- the paint, flawless in its own right, brings out the fine details of Jeff's mastery.

Anton

[Steve Palincsar]

On 09/19/2014 10:15 PM, somervillebikes wrote:
> Jeff's experience (40 years or thereabouts?), his offering of lugged
> or fillet brazed (with minimal filing) for the same price, his ability
> to make a beautifully curved fork, and the joy of being able to chat
> endlessly about details of my custom build with him are the few
> reasons I chose a L'Avecaise over a Boulder. I considered the Boulder
> in one of the stock sizes, but it seems that my body specs call for an
> odd-ball size that is something of a mix between two of the stock
> sizes. When I inquired with Mike Kone about which stock size he
> thought would work best for me, his answer was none. So now we were
> talking full custom. The price was in the same ballpark as a
> L'Avecaise, and I had seen a L'Avecaise in person locally. Every
> aspect of it screamed of a bespoke custom frame, so the choice became
> instantly obvious to me. The glowing review by Jan a couple of years
> ago only reinforced my decision.
>
> Jeff's price was so reasonable for a full custom lugged frame, that I
> felt justified to splurge for the more expensive Keith Andersen paint
> job, complete with hand-stenciled lettering and badges (also
> reasonably priced). I don't regret the decision-- the paint, flawless
> in its own right, brings out the fine details of Jeff's mastery.
>

The one in my bike club's beautiful, too.

[somervillebikes]

Here's a picture of my L'Avecaise, which is still not built up:

[William Lindsay]

+1 on how pleasant Jeff is to talk with about details.  I just had a nice long phone conversation with him about 4 different projects that I'm not quite ready to kick off, but he was happy to discuss at length.  When's the last time somebody thanked you for calling them?  

[Jason Marshall]

Wow that is truly a beautiful frame.  I can't wait to see it fully built out!

[joe c.]

https://www.flickr.com/photos/128018818@N08/15103034310/

I've been pleasantly surprised with how fast my new Ebisu is. Not sure how thick the tubing is, but it just seems to go, and handles better than any bike I've ridden. 

[Hoch]

Nice looking frame.  How are you going to set it up?  Similar to the Stag?

[somervillebikes]

Thanks.  That makes two of us!

[Steve Dass]

Anton,

Is the L'Avecaise fork 1" or 1 1/8"? If 1" it may make a good replacement for current Stag fork.

Steve

[Jason Marshall]

Anton - I notice what appears to be wire guides for a front headlight.  Just curious - did you spec this bike with overt provisions for routing cable to a taillight?  Am I correct in assuming that you will equip this bike with fenders?

[somervillebikes]

1" threadless. I had a discussion with Jeff about making me a replacement Stag fork, and that discussion evolved into one of a complete custom bike :-).

A custom Lyon fork would be more expensive than a production run by Rawland, but getting Rawland to commit to anything they put forth as an idea is impossible, so it would seem.

Anton

[somervillebikes]

Yes, I spec'd the bike with external wire guides on the fork and an internal run in the down tube. Bike will be equipped with fenders and fender taillight.

Anton

[William Lindsay]

Steve

I had Jeff make me a replacement fork for my Stag.  Let me know if you want to view pictures or more info.  I think I might have been Anton's introduction to Jeff Lyon.  Rawland is an incredible value for what you get.  The radical change that has occurred is that many Rawland models, including the Stag had this very interactive crowd-sourced kind of design process.  Now Sean is in more of a silo.  Nobody knows exactly what's coming out or when.  Whatever does come will be affordable.  Last December I got Jeff working on my replacement fork.  Very shortly thereafter Sean said he'd offer one.  I was like "Dang!  I'm going to spend top dollar for something I could have bought cheap!".  Now, since Stag owners still have no visibility to if or when they can buy a new fork, I'm no longer complaining that I paid more.  

Bill Lindsay

El Cerrito, CA

[Steve Dass]

Thanks for your responses.

Bill, Did the fork provide the improvements you were hoping for? I love my Stag and was pleased when Sean announced the new fork but as you said, with no visibility to if or when the new fork will be available it's time to look at alternatives.

Anton, The new frame looks great. Looking forward to your impressions and comparison to the Stag when you get it built up.

Steve

[William Lindsay]

I'm probably not the most sensitive rider in the world, but yes, the Lyon fork did smooth out the ride for me in the ways I wanted it to.  

[somervillebikes]

Yes, Bill was my introduction to Jeff Lyon.  Bill, you're the one responsible for me dropping $2k on what was going to be just a fork!!!

Anton

[Irving Pham]

Speaking of fast 650b, check out this sleek and clean bike from Eric at Winter Bicycles.

On Tuesday, September 16, 2014 5:34:19 PM UTC-7, Carla Waugh wrote:

Have any of you had a frame made for fast lightly loaded century type geometry and loved it? What makes you feel that it is a really fun bike? What did you have the builder do that might have been out iof the ordinary? This would be a frame for more road riding and general trails also a single speed.

[Hoch]

Bill, can I ask how much the fork was? I love my Stag too much to give it up, but would like to know what an upgraded fork would cost. Thanks.

[William Lindsay]

Jeff Lyon's website lists the L'Avecaise fork at $285 and a Jeff Lyon Fork at $450.  I ended up between the two.  I requested the top notch materials, Kaisei imperial oval blades and Grand Bois crown, but was perfectly fine with the external plug fork tip that is normal with the L'Avecaise fork.  That tip matches the Stag rear dropout really well and saves a bunch of file work.  I also had him add dynamo wiring guides and a fender mounting plate.  I did not even attempt to match the color of the stag.  I just got black powder coat.  Work with Jeff on what it is you want, and I'm virtually certain you'll end up in the $300 - $400 like I did.  My total with shipping was a hair under $400 but I don't remember exactly.  

[Hoch]

Exactly what I'm looking for, thanks!