Hetre Extra Leger, large sidewall nick: what would you do?

[somervillebikes]

Not 300 miles on my Hetre E-Ls and I just found a pretty good size sidewall nick, with a slght bulge indicating some casing fibers were cut:

It's on the front.  What would you do?  Seal with an adhesive?  Switch to the rear?  Or is this just toast? The last thing I want is a blow out at 40+ mph.

I have another bike with standard Hetres, closing in on 2000 miles of mixed terrain usage, no signs of nicks. Maybe time to end the E-L experiment and just go with regular Hetres? I have to admit, these E-Ls do run fast and smooth.  

Anton Tutter

Somerville, MA

[Steve Chan]

   Brainstorming: There's some tape that ultralight backpacking types use for repairing gear- might look up cuben fiber tape. The dyneema fibers in the tape are super strong, more for a inside boot though.
   Maybe nylon sail repair tape on outside.

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[Evan Baird]

I've had luck using adhesive boots in lighter panaracer tires before. The larger the tire, the easier it is to get it to stay in place.

[Brad]

If the fabric of the casing is still in good shape, I would find some rubber cement and rebuild the rubber.   Much as I hated them for a lack of tread longevity, the old skinwall 27 x 1 tires of the 1970's worked and they had hardly anything on the sidewall for rubber.

[WMdeR]

Dear Anton,

Tyvek (FEDEX/Priority Mail) envelope + contact cement to hold the boot in place.  It'll be your friend with the EL's offroad (make sure to drive with a few boots in your spare kit).

Best Regards,

Will

William M. deRosset

Fort Collins, CO

[Fred Blasdel]

On Sat, Oct 5, 2013 at 6:39 PM, WMdeR <wmder...@gmail.com> wrote:

Tyvek (FEDEX/Priority Mail) envelope + contact cement to hold the boot in place.  It'll be your friend with the EL's offroad (make sure to drive with a few boots in your spare kit).

This is the technique I've settled on, though with superglue rather than rubber cement.

Anton's nick is like my first one, it can be sealed with just superglue on the outside and a vulcanizing patch on the inside.

The EL tires are simply not suitable for use on rocky roads, and you need to be even more careful walking your bike than riding it.

[Rod Holland]

Honestly, I'd take a deep breath, reach into my pocket, and order another EL Herte to replace that one. Chalk it up to bad luck.

rod

On Friday, October 4, 2013 10:47:29 PM UTC-4, somervillebikes wrote:

[somervillebikes]

Thanks for all the advice and insight.  I am coming to my own conclusion that this tire should be treated as an on-road only tire, just as the warning that Grand Bois puts on the packaging states.  That said, I did just cough up the dough (ouch!) for a replacement EL, and I'll Tyvek boot the damaged one (thanks for that tip!) and apply a little adhesive on the outside to prevent the casing fibers from ripping further. I'll keep that one as a spare.

But if this happens again within a few hundred miles, it'll mean it's time to switch back to regular Hetres for any sort of mixed terrain riding.

Anton

[Ryan Watson]

On Oct 7, 2013, at 9:00, Rod Holland <rholla...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Honestly, I'd take a deep breath, reach into my pocket, and order another EL Herte to replace that one. Chalk it up to bad luck.

And send me the old one for proper "disposal" ;-)

Ryan

[Jason Hansen]

100% agree.  I experienced a similar cut this past summer after doing a few rides that involved mixed surface.  My solution was to return to standard Hetre instead of stressing over which tire I had mounted based on the terrain.  That said, they were a magnificent ride but the standards are not bad enough for me to worry about what I'm rolling over that much.

I eventually landed on rebuilding my wheels (rear is an R45 with a 10 speed) with the Pacenti PL23 and not 2 weeks afterwards the reports of cracking eyelets surfaced.  So, in the end, perhaps one can never eliminate the what-ifs when dealing with this stuff!

[Steve Chan]

   The great irony is that the bobish type folks who often make fun of the non durability of weight weenie gear the roadies use seem to be surprised that *wide* weight weenie gear luke el hetres and pl23s don't hold up.
   I think its become clear that el hetres and pl23 are weight weenie gear and expectations should be set accordingly.

   Steve

--

[Steve Palincsar]

On 10/07/2013 11:58 AM, Steve Chan wrote:

   The great irony is that the bobish type folks who often make fun of the non durability of weight weenie gear the roadies use seem to be surprised that *wide* weight weenie gear luke el hetres and pl23s don't hold up.
   I think its become clear that el hetres and pl23 are weight weenie gear and expectations should be set accordingly.

I can't speak to the rims, but I think you've gone a bit beyond the data regarding the Extra Leger Hetres.  What we have seen is that for some regions noted for sharp stones along unpaved roads the sidewalls are too fragile.  We've also seen that for other regions, not noted for sharp stones on unpaved roads, they seem to hold up fine.   If you regard them as a paved-roads-only tire we've seen no evidence that they do not hold up, or that they are suitable only for extremely light riders.

[William Lindsay]

Anton

Do you have any idea what exactly made the cut?  Can you describe the event, or did you notice the cut only at a post-ride inspection?

On Friday, October 4, 2013 7:47:29 PM UTC-7, somervillebikes wrote:

[Steve Palincsar]

On 10/07/2013 11:58 AM, Steve Chan wrote:
>
>

> The great irony is that the bobish type folks who often make fun of
> the non durability of weight weenie gear the roadies use seem to be
> surprised that *wide* weight weenie gear luke el hetres and pl23s
> don't hold up.
> I think its become clear that el hetres and pl23 are weight weenie
> gear and expectations should be set accordingly.
>
>

I just read Jan's new blog posting,
http://janheine.wordpress.com/2013/10/07/riding-to-forest-road-6700/.
This ride featured some serious miles on gravel roads on EL Hetres,
without problems. Check out the photos for yourself.

This supports my notion that the nature of the rocks found on the gravel
roads matters a lot. We've seen plenty of comments about damaged
sidewalls on gravel roads with regular Hetres from folks in certain
regions, that leave others of us who live in areas where sharp rocks are
not common wondering in puzzlement how something like that could happen.

[Ryan Watson]

I've seen two regular Hetres with nearly identical sidewall cuts, so I'd just chalk it up to bad luck.

I bought a pair of those Pacenti rims, but decided not to use them because they "seemed" to delicate to me. Perhaps I was right?

I'm loving the EL Hetres, however!

Ryan

[Ryan Watson]

It amazes me that some people actually like Hetres off road! Nevermind the sidewalls, for me the smooth tread was the problem: they slipped and slid all over the place. Perhaps Colorado and New Mexico dirt is looser than elsewhere?

Ryan

[Fred Blasdel]

On Sun, Oct 6, 2013 at 5:00 PM, Rod Holland <rholla...@gmail.com> wrote:

Honestly, I'd take a deep breath, reach into my pocket, and order another EL Herte to replace that one. Chalk it up to bad luck.

You have to get home first to do that

Which requires some chutzpah when you have destroyed the sidewalls of both your EL tires while exposed on top of "Skull & Crossbones Ridge" as darkness and 12 hours of supercell thunderstorms settle in, among hundreds of pissed off cows with their calves, 5000ft above and 20 miles from a one horse town

[Mike Schiller]

I'd certainly expect the person who imports/sells the EL Hetres to talk glowingly about them.  The spectrum of dirt that people ride is vary varied, I certainly wouldn't  use them as most of the dirt I ride in California is full of rocks.  

~mike

[Fred Blasdel]

On Mon, Oct 7, 2013 at 2:22 PM, Steve Palincsar <pali...@his.com> wrote:

I just read Jan's new blog posting, http://janheine.wordpress.com/2013/10/07/riding-to-forest-road-6700/. This ride featured some serious miles on gravel roads on EL Hetres, without problems.   Check out the photos for yourself.

Did you read his review of the Calfee in the latest issue? He himself experienced wear on the casings of the Hetre ELs in the form of flyaway threads.

There are about a dozen apiece on the exterior of each of mine, plus a number of dry/frayed areas, and of course the three slices and two blowouts

 

This supports my notion that the nature of the rocks found on the gravel roads matters a lot.  We've seen plenty of comments about damaged sidewalls on gravel roads with regular Hetres from folks in certain regions, that leave others of us who live in areas where sharp rocks are not common wondering in puzzlement how something like that could happen.

I've sliced open two original Hetres, and both times were violent situations that would have taken out a lot of tires — one a gigantic metal staple across the tread, the other a very sharp boulder that I grazed with my rear sidewall.

All three flat-inducing breaches of my EL Hetres were at the gentlest of speeds

The first time I was even walking my bike (!) through a culvert in the rainiest place in the Washington Cascades, where the old gravel is most assuredly weathered.

[Steve Palincsar]

--

So, what tires would you suggest for such an application, Fred?  

[Steve Palincsar]

On 10/07/2013 06:01 PM, Ryan Watson wrote:
> It amazes me that some people actually like Hetres off road! Nevermind the sidewalls, for me the smooth tread was the problem: they slipped and slid all over the place. Perhaps Colorado and New Mexico dirt is looser than elsewhere?

Hetres are simply marvelous on Northern Virginia unpaved roads. But
note: if you would want to dig into one of those roads, you'd better
bring a pick axe and eat your spinach the night before, because those
roads are harder than a moneylender's heart.

[somervillebikes]

Bill,

I have no idea what caused the cut, I only discovered it a couple of days later when I was giving my bike an inspection.  The event in which it occurred was a ride around Burlington, VT, about 30 miles mostly smooth packed dirt, and around 40 miles pavement.  One particular dirt descent was rough and washboarded and I remember some particularly deep ruts running parallel with the road, some of which were hard to avoid and I may have gone through some.  One of those protrusions may have grazed my sidewall as I skirted by some of the ruts.

The terms "gravel" and "dirt" are loosely used to describe a lot of unpaved surfaces, and I agree with others who've said the composition and nature of the surface can vary widely.  My experiences on dirt roads in VT, NH and NY lead me to conclude that not only are there regional differences (the VT dirt roads I've been on can be smoother than pavement, for example, while NH roads often are sandy with a lot of loose course gravel mixed in), but some townships within the same region formulate their their road aggregates differently-- some use larger gravel, some use finer gravel, and some use all sorts of recycled aggregate, even combining old torn up asphalt with dirt.  Overall, I'd estimate that the unpaved roads I ride on are smoother and less rocky than the ones that Jan Heine rides on, at least if the photos he publishes are representative.

Anton

[Rod Holland]

Grim, indeed. Under those circumstance, I'd take a deep breath, reach into my pocket, and extract a couple of twenties to use as boots...

rod

[Nick Payne]

On 08/10/13 15:13, Rod Holland wrote:
> Grim, indeed. Under those circumstance, I'd take a deep breath, reach into
> my pocket, and extract a couple of twenties to use as boots...

One time in Switzerland we had to boot my brother's tyre with a 200
franc note, that being the only denomination we had on us...

[Steve Chan]

On Oct 7, 2013 12:06 PM, "Steve Palincsar" <pali...@his.com> wrote:
>
> I can't speak to the rims, but I think you've gone a bit beyond the data regarding the Extra Leger Hetres.
> What we have seen is that for some regions noted for sharp stones along unpaved roads

Please show me the data that says the sidewall cuts were in
"regions noted for sharp stones along unpaved roads".
I have only seen that the sidewalls were cut, and no data that the
gravel was sharper. What we have seen is that users who have ridden
normal Hetres and expected to ride the EL Hetres the same way are now
seeing significantly less durability.

> the sidewalls are too fragile. We've also seen that for other regions, not noted for sharp
> stones on unpaved roads, they seem to hold up fine.

Once again, please show me _that_ data.

> If you regard them as a paved-roads-only tire we've seen no evidence that they do not hold
> up, or that they are suitable only for extremely light riders.

The original Hetre's seemed to do well enough on gravel *and* for
riders who were not extremely light. The _data_ indicates that the new
EL Hetre is pointed to noticeably less durability compared to the
original Hetre, in exchange for lighter weight and faster rolling - at
least in the experience of 2 well experienced riders who rode the
origin Hetre. But that's just the tradeoff that was made for this tire
- a problem only arises if the tradeoff isn't acknowledged.

It seems to be a really, really fat tire for the road-only use
unless you are a very careful rider like Jan. It may be thought of as
a high mileage road alternative to the Pari Moto, though it sounds
like the Pari Moto might actually have more gravel cred than the EL
Hetre.

Steve

[Justin]

Fat
Light
Durable

Pick two situation?

-J

[Steve Palincsar]

Can you get light and durable?

[somervillebikes]

Here are some data points associated with my experiences with Hetres, standard versus EL:

Standard Hetres:
Ridden close to 2000 miles
Have been in use for two years
About 65-35 mix of paved-unpaved, around MA, NH, NY
Ridden in rainy and dry weather
Bike + rider + stuff = ~205 lb
One flat (caused by a thorn after walking my bike through a thorny patch (stupid of me)
Sidewall casings still look great-- no splitting fibers, although the outer gumwall/skinwall layer is showing minor crazing

EL Hetres
Ridden close to 300 miles
Have been in use for two months
About 65-35 mix of paved-unpaved, around MA, NH, NY and VT (VT being the only data point different from the standard Hetres)
Ridden only in dry weather
Bike + rider + stuff = ~195 lb
No flats
One noticeable sidewall gash

So basically, the majority of road surfaces seen by both tires are very similar.  The fact that the original Hetres never saw VT roads is not significant in this case, and is probably just a random outlier since the one rough descent I experienced in VT was more or less on par with any of the other rough sections the regular Hetres have seen elsewhere.  Let's just say the regular Hetres have seen about 5-10 times the amount of similar rough stuff as the ELs.

Also, the gash in the EL is just one data point.  By itself one can't really draw significant meaning, but with others' experiences we can begin to paint a picture of the EL's differences in durability compared with standard Hetres.

Anton

[Gregory Haase]

It's impossible to infer anything from Anton's data alone because simply don't know how the sidewall damage occurred. It may very well have been something hard and sharp enough or hit in such a way that it would have cut a normal Hetra, or any other tire.

--

[Jan Heine]

At 7:01 AM +0900 10/8/13, Ryan Watson wrote:
>It amazes me that some people actually like
>Hetres off road! Nevermind the sidewalls, for me
>the smooth tread was the problem: they slipped
>and slid all over the place. Perhaps Colorado
>and New Mexico dirt is looser than elsewhere?

When you watch a typical amateur cyclocross race,
you see that some riders are on knobbies, yet
slide all over the place. On the same course,
other riders are on semi-slick tires and find
great traction. Similarly, some riders pinch-flat
or cut sidewalls, while others use high-end
tubulars and have no sidewall problems.

Riders' weights, skills and riding styles vary
quite a bit. When you then add the different
terrain that people ride, it makes sense that
different people will find different tires
optimal for their riding.

We sell tires that you cannot find elsewhere -
fast, supple, comfortable, but somewhat less
durable. The standard Hetres have been amazingly
durable for most riders. I believe that much of
this durability is due to the width and
associated low pressure. This indicates that
puncture-resistance is much less of a concern for
wide tires than it is for narrow ones.

The Extra Léger models push the envelope a bit
further. My initial testing suggested that they
were fine for gravel roads in the Pacific
Northwest. I like to go fast, so I don't consider
myself a very "careful" rider, but of course, I
do avoid running over stuff that can damage a
tire.

We now hear from some riders that they have cut
sidewalls on the Extra Légers. Fred noted that
the tires on our Calfee had a few threads
fraying. Those actually were there when we got
the bike. The bike had undergone significant
testing by Calfee, and the tires were well-worn
when the bike came to us. They survived a very
strenuous 400-mile ride with lots of gravel
descents at night fine. (And the light on the
bike was sub-optimal, making it hard to pick the
best line.) I did have one flat, but in
retrospect, it appears to have been a faulty tube
valve. (I could not find a puncture, not any
debris in the tire, and a new tube held air
fine.) This was my first flat on Extra Léger
Hetres in more than 3000 miles, and I cannot
blame the tire.

As a rider, I like to ride the most supple,
fastest and most comfortable tire I can without
undue concerns about punctures and cuts. I
probably wouldn't run a Marathon, but rather fix
a flat a week on more supple tires. Fortunately,
I don't have to do that, since more supple tires
can be very durable. But if I rode through piles
of nails daily, I might switch to something like
a Marathon. If I thought such a tire was a great
option for many riders, Compass Bicycles Ltd.
would sell them. (We are a Schwalbe distributor,
but currently sell only their excellent tubes.)

I think the difference in speed and comfort
between the standard and Extra Léger versions of
the Hetre is significant, but not so great that
I'd fix a flat a week to ride the ELs. Again,
most people have much better luck than that, but
if your riding environment does not support these
tires, fortunately, there are other options.

I will also talk to Grand Bois and Panaracer to
see whether the sidewalls can get a little
stronger without detracting much from the
performance and comfort. If we could give up 1%
in speed and comfort for an increase of 10% in
durability, I would consider this a worth while
trade-off.

Jan Heine
Compass Bicycles Ltd.
2116 Western Ave.
Seattle WA 98121
http://www.compasscycle.com

Follow our blog at http://janheine.wordpress.com/
--

[Rick Johnson]

Perhaps this is just a rare instance of bad luck. It could have been a
piece of glass among the gravel somewhere. Around these parts we often
have Obsidian chips - you know that stuff the natives and early settlers
used to make knives and arrow heads out of.
Some things no tire (worth riding) can survive.

Rick Johnson
Bend Oregon

* * *

[Steve Chan]

Actually Fred Blasdel had experienced a very similar unexpected
sidewall cut on his Hetres a few months back while riding on gravel.
He also posted photos of the cut and some discussion about the
construction of the tire that had changed from the Hetre to the EL
Hetre. One incident may be bad luck, but 2 fairly identical incidents
plus differences in construction that can be observed visually point
to more than bad luck.

I'm actually planning on buying a pair of EL Hetres (once I can
free up that much $$$), but would use them as fast, durable pavement
tires and not all-arounder tires.

Steve

--
"Sow a thought, reap an action. Sow an action, reap a habit. Sow a
habit, reap a character. Sow a character, reap a destiny." - Samuel
Smiles

[Eric Stocker]

For what it's worth, I would like to chime in and say that I had two, almost identical sidewall slashes on my Hetre and Cypres tires within a 3 day time period, on different gravel roads.

The first cut, on my Hetre, happened right as I hopped on my bike to start descending down a trail in Marin.

The second cut, on my Cypres, happened as I had just hopped onto a gravel trail to ascend. 

Both cuts were nearly an inch long, and happened at speeds less than 5 mph, within 3 days of each other...

I have been riding Hetre ELs lately but I no longer take them on mixed terrain rides. I use the Vee Rubber Speedsters for that.

[Eric Stocker]

I should add that the second slash happened in the Headlands on Coastal Trail at the very bottom of the descent from Conzelman roundabout--a completely different area from the first slash.

[William Lindsay]

I'm with Jan on this one.  In 35 years of riding, I've had maybe 5 bad sidewall cuts.  I consider each of them a freak occurrence.  One bad luck cut every seven years, I can accept, so I'll ride the very best performing tires I can find.  

If I experienced a consistent high frequency pattern of failures on a particular tire, I would sure as heck change them or stop using them in that way.  Lots of readers here have shared that they have made that decision on the EL tires.  As Jan points out, everybody has to make that decision for themselves.  Nobody can make an objective conclusion about a particular tire.  For example, nobody can conclusively state "EL Hetres will have a sidewall cut at least once every 100 miles of off-pavement riding for every rider, and standard Hetres will not".  But anybody can say "I don't trust EL tires off-pavement anymore" and that's a perfectly valid decision.  

My similar small-sample experience was with Pari-Motos.  Starting with new tires, I got a puncture on every single ride for several rides in a row.  Tiny sliver of glass once, then a small wire the next time, then a thorn.  Fed up, I put some SOMA tires on and rode 1500 miles with no flats.  Then I put the Pari Motos back on for a 200k and got a slow leak in both tires in the rain and the dark at km 160 or so.  I didn't have a dry shelter to repair things, and pumping them up allowed me to ride for about an hour, so I limped in to the finish pumping and riding.  When I got into the dry garage, it was two small slivers of glass again.  So, I don't trust Pari Motos, from my experience.  I know other riders who have had spectacular luck with the identical tire, so I would be overstepping the data to suggest Pari Motos are flat-prone for everyone.  All I can say is I've had bad luck and I don't trust them.  It's my decision and I won't ride them, but I won't tell anybody else not to ride them.  

[Steve Palincsar]

On 10/08/2013 12:38 PM, Eric Stocker wrote:
> For what it's worth, I would like to chime in and say that I had two,
> almost identical sidewall slashes on my Hetre and Cypres tires within
> a 3 day time period, on different gravel roads.
>
> The first cut, on my Hetre, happened right as I hopped on my bike to
> start descending down a trail in Marin.
> The second cut, on my Cypres, happened as I had just hopped onto a
> gravel trail to ascend.
>
> Both cuts were nearly an inch long, and happened at speeds less than 5
> mph, within 3 days of each other...

Were these the ELs or the regular Cypres and Hetre?

[Eric Stocker]

Standard Cypres and Hetre.

Sent from my iPhone

[satanas]

On Wednesday, October 9, 2013 3:14:36 AM UTC+10, William Lindsay wrote:

I'm with Jan on this one.  In 35 years of riding, I've had maybe 5 bad sidewall cuts.  I consider each of them a freak occurrence.  One bad luck cut every seven years, I can accept, so I'll ride the very best performing tires I can find.

In my case, I've also had a few significant tyre failures in a similar time period. One was the result of a large bolt which went straight through a new tyre, one was a huge gash through a MTB tyre which was rideable after booting, the third was a bead failure on a cheap tyre, and the others were bead failures on not-so-cheap Moulton tyres made (poorly) by Wolber. The first two were freak occurrences, the others were due to poor materials and/or construction. Other flats have been due to assorted things, but none have resulted in the demise of the afflicted tyres, and so have not put me off using anything for that reason. The other tyre I can recommend against is the Maxxis Maxxlight 310, which is narrow, extremely light/thin, and very loose fitting on Mavic rims; these get flats of all sorts remarkably easily, negating the time saved via weight savings.

Personally, I cannot remember ever having sidewall damage,due to rocks, except for one allegedly 25mm (but actually ~20mm) Specialized tyre about 20 years ago, and even then the problem was broken cords and bulging rather than cuts. Thus, I see no need to avoid the ELs, but am more likely to use the Vee Speedsters on dirt due to the tread pattern.

I must admit to being curious about the rumours lately floated about the Pacenti PL-23 rims, as I have a pair to build up. So far I have not seen anything other than hearsay - not a single instance of cracking has been reported here first hand. I'm also inclined to think that unless the rims are totally defective - unlikely IMHO - it is not unreasonable to expect that not-so-well-built examples with straight gauge spokes and lots of dish might not be expected to hold up well under heavy and/or careless riders...

Later.

Stephen

[mikeha...@comcast.net]

Stephen,

 

I built up a set of 650B wheels last winter using a PL23 36 hole and Shimano Ultegra 9s hub in back  and 32 hole and Shimano 3n80 dynamo hub (Now a SP SV8 dyno) in front .  At the time on the rear wheel I set the drive side spoke tension on the rear at 110kgf and 100 on the front.   I could have sworn that the recommended tension was 110 at the time of the build but I could be wrong.    I was on a 200K brevet in June when I noticed a wobble in the rear wheel which got worse towards the end of the ride.   When I got home I inspected the rim and found that the rim had developed cracks in the drive side spoke holes. 

 

I emailed Harris Cyclery where I got the rims and told them about them about the cracks and the tension I used for the build.  To their credit they immediately sent me a new rim and said that Kirk Pacenti recommends to set the drive side tension no higher than 95 kgf.   Since then I've put on about 1500 miles on the rim and it's still going strong.  Even after a couple of aggressive gravel rides.  But I make sure I inspect the rim regularly.

 

Since then I bought another PL23 for the front built up on a Dura Ace hub.  They sure are puurrty!

 

 

Mike, No rumor zone, Hauptman

Rochelle, Illinoise

 

---

From: "satanas" <nsc.e...@gmail.com>
To: 65...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, October 9, 2013 9:25:59 AM
Subject: Re: [650B] Re: Hetre Extra Leger, large sidewall nick: what would you do?

I must admit to being curious about the rumours lately floated about the Pacenti PL-23 rims, as I have a pair to build up. So far I have not seen anything other than hearsay - not a single instance of cracking has been reported here first hand. I'm also inclined to think that unless the rims are totally defective - unlikely IMHO - it is not unreasonable to expect that not-so-well-built examples with straight gauge spokes and lots of dish might not be expected to hold up well under heavy and/or careless riders...

Later.

Stephen

--

[Stephen Poole]

Thanks Mike,

I'm ~64kg and will be using CX-Rays with 28x2 at the front and 32x3 at the rear. Hubs are SON Deluxe front and Dura-Ace 7850 rear. I have in the distant past successfully used lightweight tubular rims which heavier riders managed to break rapidly, so am reasonably confident I should be okay. However, I am not in the USA so if there are problems getting a new rim would be a hassle.

I will be careful not to use maximum possible tension in view of your remarks.  :-)

Later,

Stephen

[Mike Schiller]

perhaps you should read the latest issue of BQ. There are photos and information about the cracking issues on rear wheels using the PL23's.  Also more info here.  https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/bqrr/rNep9kYqeEg

~mike

[Hoffsta]

My only sidewall slash, since switching to supple tires, was on a Pari Moto. I wouldn't consider it worth posting except that how it occurred is somewhat amusing: I was riding fast on a busy road that forced me close to the curb. Just as a car was passing by, very close, I noticed a dead and dried up animal right in my path, must have been a Nutria. This thing was just leather and bones. With nowhere to go, I tried to bunny hop it but was too late and didn't get the rear wheel up in time (exacerbated by an overstuffed saddlebag). I heard crunching bones, immediately followed by "pfssst" and my day was done.

I doubt any tire from Compass would stand up to a dagger-like bone shard at 20mph but I will still use them because the ride is worth replacing a tire every now-and-then.

Sean

Eugene OR

[Rob Riggins]

The dreaded and rare bone puncture!

Rob

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Minneapolis, MN

[Harold Bielstein]

Ck out this item from Jagwire: http://jagwire.com/products/v/brake_pad_tools
It makes brake pad set up a snap!

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Hal R. Bielstein
5211 Meadowlark Dr
Rapid City, SD 57702
605-341-0315
hkbie...@rap.midco.net

[Harold Bielstein]

Oops, sorry - i replied all to the wrong message. Should have been: Re: [650B] Best cantilevers that don't squeal

[satanas]

On Thursday, October 10, 2013 2:18:49 AM UTC+10, Mike Schiller wrote:

perhaps you should read the latest issue of BQ. There are photos and information about the cracking issues on rear wheels using the PL23's.  Also more info here.  https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/bqrr/rNep9kYqeEg

Thanks for that. Since I have the rims and the spokes to suit they are going to be built up, and I will do my best to avoid problems. There are no other suitable rims available without freighting something from overseas at vast expense in nay case.

Later,

Stephen

[Rod Holland]

Amusingly enough, when I went to swap the front and rear GB Cypres ELs at 1040 miles (preventative maintenance, the rear tread was showing modest wear, the front tread none at all), I found that what I thought was a small, superficial sidewall nick in the rear tire had penetrated clean through. Patched that, and look forward to another thousand miles.

I've given these tires a pretty good mixed-terrain beating this season, with plenty of chances to encounter a sharp stone...

rod