Re: Help me with a Trek 400 650b conversion, please?

[rob perks]

These treks make pretty easy and popular conversions.  It looks like your overall plan will work pretty well.  There are two areas that can be a snag in my experience.  Starting with brake reach, some of these Treks during the early 80's were still being built with a longer brake reach to accommodate 27" and 70c wheels.  It is hard to tell from the picture, buyt on some builds I needed the extra reach of a Diacompe 750, others I could get away with the Tektro and a Koolstop MTN thinline pad.  For me, when converting a Trek I now default to the 750 and a set of Koolstop Cross pads just to be safe, if they end up a little higher in the slot, it just means better breaking. 

Your other likely constraint will be tire width at the rear chain stays, keeping you at a comfortable max of 38mm.  I personally like the Col de la Vie, it is cheap, long lasting, good enough on dirt and works well with fenders.  The soma 650b New express should also do well.  Using those as a starting point, if you have lots of extra room you can get a B -Line or Pari moto for your second set.

Fenders?  If you really want metal the Berthoud 50mm will cover the tires above and is a bit easier to set up.  Plastic, The Planet bike and SKS 50mm fenders have both worked fine on projects for me

Rear spacing, these old treks are pretty simple to re-space the rear if you are comfortable with that, or have a shop that can help.

It will be a great bike, have fun with the process, it is a great way to learn what you want out of the bike.

Rob
oceanaircycles.com
Ventura, CA



On Tuesday, November 6, 2012 4:37:58 PM UTC-8, danvprod wrote:

Hi there - 

I am new to the 650b scene. After much research, I pulled the trigger on a used 80s road bike frame that seems to be a good candidate for a 650b conversion: a 1983 Trek 400. 

I plan on gutting it, and building it up as a sweet 650b commuter. I need some help in configuring the bike for this. 

I think the brakes will be Tektro R559. I am having a hard time finding a good pair of 650b wheels. I think I have to go with a 130mm hub, because this bike was meant for 126mm originally. I am going to use a Chris King GripNut 1" threaded headset, a Nitto 100mm stem and noodle bar with tektro brake levers and dura-ace 9 speed bar-end shifters. 

As far as drive train I'm a but stuck. I was thinking of doing a 2-piece Tiagra 50/34 compact crankset with a deore deraillieur in the back and 12-27t 9-seed cassette. I'll use my standard 9-speed sram chain and a 105 front deraillieur. 

I also need some help with fenders and tires. My commute is about 10 miles one way with mixed terrain -- roads, a greenway and some light trails if I choose to go that way. 

I appreciate the help in advance, as well as any opinions.  I'll be sure to post some pictures as the project moves forward. I look forward to getting some low-PSI tires and have a comfortable, worry-free ride. 

This is my inspiration:

http://brazenbicycles.com/Trek-400-650b-Sport-Touring

I think it looks beautiful as a 650b and I absolutely love the color. 

[William Lindsay]

Do you really need a 50-12 high gear?  Is 34-27 low enough?  If no to either of those, I'd think hard about a real compact double.  For example, Rivendell sells a Sugino triple that's set up with a Chainguard, a 40T and a 26T.  That's super useful for a commuter.  Sure, you might not be able to spin up to faster than 30MPH with a 12t cog in back, but not many people need to do that commuting.  I'm running a very similar setup on my 1980's 650B converted commuter and it's dynamite.  

[danvprod]

Hey William -- 

I was just looking at the Riv site and that exact crankset. I think the 40/26 may be a really good option. If I can't find a used 650b wheel set, I just may make my whole order from them, as I think they would have everything I need. 

I may look for some used 105 stuff on ebay to keep costs down. Is there any special front deraillieur I would need to use for the 40/26? 

I'd love to see a picture of your commuter. 

[William Lindsay]

If you want to shave some dollars from your build, it is my opinion that buying a King headset is a massive extravagance.  There are plenty of nice $40 headsets.

I have copious pictures of my Miyata 912 650B conversion, including the process of building it.  I can't get on flickr from the office, but if you can, just search for me, username: Hillbubba.  You'll find the set.  

Front derailleurs for a compact double and a friction shifter couldn't be easier.  Just get any old road bike front derailleur that has a 28.6mm clamp.  Pre-brifter models are best, because you'll get a lot easier trimmability with a long pull arm and a wide cage.  I like this one:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-Suntour-Cyclone-MK-II-Front-Derailleur-28-6-CM-TOURING-NEW-IN-BOX-/230877043393?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item35c1581ac1

It looks like that is the model on the JPWeigle featured in another thread on this group.  If it's good enough for Peter, it's good enough for us.  That'll work great with any friction shifter, barcon or downtube.  

You can't run a mountain bike front der, because when you run it low on your seat tube to clear that 40t ring, the trailing edge will hit the chainstay.  

[Steve Palincsar]

On Wed, 2012-11-07 at 13:56 -0800, William Lindsay wrote:
> If you want to shave some dollars from your build, it is my opinion
> that buying a King headset is a massive extravagance. There are
> plenty of nice $40 headsets.

You can even find a Tange Levin headset, perfectly fine, for half that!

[danvprod]

Excellent, I'll keep an eye on that Suntour. And the cheaper headset sounds like a reasonable idea. 

This seems like a pretty decent price for a deore rear deraillieur:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/New-Shimano-9-Speed-Deore-Rapid-Rise-Rear-Derailleur-/251180325399?pt=Cycling_Parts_Accessories&hash=item3a7b839a17

And here is a tange headset for < $15 shipped:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Tange-Passage-New-1-Threaded-26-4-Chrome-/281008740608?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item416d6d1900

How do I know if it is a 27.0 or 26.4 for my trek?

Crankset seems most economical coming from Rivendell. 

[danvprod]

Thanks, agreed.

On Wednesday, November 7, 2012 5:22:46 PM UTC-5, Steve Palincsar wrote:

[William Lindsay]

If you don't have headset tools, I think you should just pay your LBS to install your headset.  Buy one from them, and pay them a bit extra to install it.  They'll measure the fork crown race diameter and hook you up.  

At the risk of getting too involved with your build, how about this crankset:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/VINTAGE-SUGINO-RD3000-BICYCLE-172-5-MM-52-42-30-ALLOY-CRANKSET-/150941392385?pt=Cycling_Parts_Accessories&hash=item2324cede01

and then ditch the big ring and replace it with this guard

http://www.ebay.com/itm/NEW-GENUINE-SPOT-BRAND-CHAIN-GUARD-130BCD-42T-CYCLOCROSS-29ER-CROSS-/321017459322?pt=Cycling_Parts_Accessories&hash=item4abe21b27a

You'd have a 42-30, but can buy a 74mm BCD 26T (or a 28T or a 24T) ring later if you decide you need it.

[danvprod]

Not getting too involved at all. I more than appreciate the help. 

Good plan on the headset. Thanks for the links for the components. 

[danvprod]

I received the trek frame today. Color is really great, and looks to be in pretty good condition. Got most of the parts off, which is good. Got stuck with the bottom bracket. I need a spanner to get the dust cap off, it seems. Headset is pretty much shot and corroded a bit. Will be replaced with a Tange 1". Crankset was a suntour cyclone. 52/40, and in pretty good condition. I want to get the headset cups and bottom bracket out so I can wash the frame off in palmolive and spray framesaver in the tubes. 

I still haven't purchased any parts, other than what I am bringing over from my kogswell (long story my 700c bike is going to now be a salsa casseroll) and I am taking apart and selling off or reusing my Kogswell P56 bike.)

I've been in contact with Joe Young about building me a set of wheels -- that will most likely be the most costly part of this project. 

As soon as I get the frame cleaned up and framesaved, I'll be in business. 

Also looks like I have to get one of these, since there are no cable stops on the frame:

http://www.rivbike.com/product-p/ca6.htm

[Dan Valente]

I was worried about BB height. Plus it was a bit too small. I am more 57-58 sized bike. 

Also need to recoup some costs. I may actually sell back the trek400 and kogs and just keep the casseroll. It fits me perfectly and is set up like a Riv Atlantis. 

I don't know...

Sent from my iPhone

On Nov 16, 2012, at 10:01 AM, Kieran Joyes <kjo...@gmail.com> wrote:

How come you didn't attempt a 650b conversion of the P56? Would it not be a good candidate?

Curious about your reasons to let it go.

 

KJ

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[Jim G]

My 1992 Trek 400 650B conversion has become my favorite bike.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/jimg/sets/72157618420547360/

-Jim G

[Dan Valente]

Did yours start life as a 700c? 

Dan

Sent from my iPhone

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[jim g]

Yes, it was factory-spec'd with 700C wheels:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/jimg/3454560226/in/set-72157618420547360

http://www.flickr.com/photos/jimg/4091126100/in/set-72157618420547360

I bought it as a frame/fork, and built it up initially with 700C wheels:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/jimg/4235716178/in/set-72157618420547360

I then swapped just the wheels and brakes to 650B:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/jimg/4967089920/in/set-72157618420547360/

It's finally evolved in my rando bike with a Kogswell low-trail fork, front bag+rack, lights, etc.:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/26801123@N06/7719018188/

-Jim G

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jimg at yojimg dot net

[Brad]

How exactly do you keep your pump attached on the seat stay? 

[danvprod]

Thanks, Jim. That looks sweet!

On Saturday, November 17, 2012 3:52:15 PM UTC-5, Jim G wrote:

[danvprod]

I love this!

On Saturday, November 17, 2012 12:00:41 AM UTC-5, aaronpv2 wrote:

Hello,

Been awhile but saw this thread, just wanted to say I too was inspired by the Brazen Bicycle TREK conversion here is a link to my build on Flick'r

http://www.flickr.com/photos/b1cycl3r1d3r/6926623442/in/photostream/

Hope the link works,

Any comments would be appreciated.

Good luck with build.

[Jim G]

There's a small zip tie wrapped around the chainstay just ahead of the
rear dropout. The head of the zip tie points upwards, and works like
a pump peg. The other end of the pump wedges into the crotch of the
seat stay/seat tube joint. I also use a velcro strap around the pump
and the seat stay, just in case.

-Jim G

[Nick Payne]

I get a pump of the right length so that one end of the pump fits at the junction of the seat tube and seat stay, and the pump head rests on the chainstay. The Zefal pump head has a concave end so it doesn't fall off the chainstay, and I clamp the rear quick release shut so that it is pointing forwards along the chainstay and acts as a stop for the pump head to prevent it sliding all the way back to the dropout. An image of the setup (taken from the wrong side of the bike, unfortunately), at http://www.users.on.net/~njpayne/bikestuff/litespeed_650b.jpg. This pump has travelled thousands of kilometres attached like this without any problems at all.

Nick

[Ken Freeman]

One caveat on the Trek frames is trail.  These have lower trail than most road bikes, but it's not really low trail.  For 700c wheels, it's low enough that a smaller front load might work nicely, but 650b's and full Berthoud front bags usually need lower trail to stabilize well.  A good range of trail for 650x42 Hetre tires is about 35 mm, which is usually achieved with a fork with about 65 mm offset (aka rake).  The steel Treks usually have either 52 or 55 mm fork offset, depending on year and model.  This gives trail values around 45 to 49 mm.  Not nearly as low as the better Hetre-based rando or porteur frames.  They might be ok with a Berthoud front bag and 650x32 mm tires, but I've never tried it, I can't be sure.

On Sat, Nov 17, 2012 at 7:33 AM, Ken Freeman <kenfre...@gmail.com> wrote:

A bud here in Michigan did this to a 1983 Trek 610, and likes it a lot.  It probably has similar geometry to the 400, but the shorter chainstays than a 400T.  He used narrower tires, I think 32s, and long Weinmann centerpulls - I'm sure DiaCompe would work as well.  Re gearing: I see very little wrong with keeping with the 126 rear end and using a friction-shifted 7-speed.  You need a good quality rear derailleur; usually anything that is made for indexing will shift well in friction mode when used with a freewheel that has a grabby tooth design.  Examples include Shimano, Sachs ARIS, and the clones of Shimano.  Old-school freewheels, such as Regina, Maillard, and Atom, have worse shifting due in part to the block-shaped gear teeth.

With a super-compact crank like the 42-30, a 7-speed rear end is quite reasonable.  A 126 mm rear hub that accepts freewheels, a Shimano or similar 13-28 7-speed, and you have a gear range of 28 inches up to 86.  If you can find a 12-28, you'll get 93 inches, and 101 inches if you can find (not that likely) an 11 tooth.  With a 'cross compact (more like 48/36) and a 13-28, you'll get pretty good front shifting due to the 12 tooth spread in the chainrings.  Overall you'll get a range of 98 down to 34.  Depending on your terrain that can be quite useful.

If you need more top end, you'll probably want to go to a triple.  Here the flame wars can get intense, but (among others) I really like the "racing triple" style, using 52/42/30 chainrings.  Campy makes and made a few good ones, as do Shimano and others.  The old racers had it right about the usefulness of 52/42, and the 30 is close enough to the 42 that shifting should not be too balky.  And the range will be about 106 inches down to 28 inches, nearly a 4 to 1 span.  With nearly all long-cage indexing rear mechs it's do-able, with a total tooth span (i.e. chain wrap) of 37 teeth.  A triple front derailleur like a Campy Racing Triple would handle the front-end shifting very well.

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Ken Freeman
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[Ken Freeman]

A bud here in Michigan did this to a 1983 Trek 610.  It probably has similar geometry to the 400, but the shorter chainstays than a 400T.  He used narrower tires, I think 32s, and long Weinmann centerpulls - I'm sure DiaCompe would work as well.  Re gearing: I see very little wrong with keeping with the 126 rear end and using a friction-shifted 7-speed.  You need a good quality rear derailleur; usually anything that is made for indexing will shift well in friction mode when used with a freewheel that has a grabby tooth design.  Examples include Shimano, Sachs ARIS, and the clones of Shimano.  Old-school freewheels, such as Regina, Maillard, and Atom, have worse shifting due in part to the block-shaped gear teeth.