School me on Carradice saddlebags for touring.

[j glenn]

I'm doing a little 2020 motive and opportunity Jenga in my head, and considering taking a  650b Fuji S12-S on a short tour this summer.  I've got a big Rando bag and front panniers  figured out, and figured I'd  pick up a Carradice saddle bag to carry the lighter and bulkier stuff.  Never having seen  a real British saddle bag I'm not sure how big a bag to go with. I don't want to get to large of a bag that will only get used for one week out of the year, or will  over load the rear of the bike. I've got the saddle pretty low  with a fistfull of seat post and all that but, I ordered a VO rear constructors rack  so I'm not concerned with the bag pushing on the fender. I'd be interested in hearing  folks thoughts or seeing some pictures of this sort of set up. Thanks, Woody

[Mark Guglielmana]

I've got a couple of saddle bags in the 11 liter category. I use them to supplement a handlebar bag when credit card touring. This one is a Zimbale. It's about the same as a Carradice Barley, just a bit bigger and has an expanding flap, which comes in handy if I need temporary extra storage. 

I also have a custom Waxwing saddle bag to match a handlebar bag. Both are a little nicer than off the shelf solutions, and have some custom features to boot.

Neither affect handling too much. The "next size up" bags probably would. 

[George Cline]

I'm a saddlebag fan! I've commuted a lot with Carradice Bags and done a quite few tours with them. I've mostly used the Camper for touring but it is a massive beast! Doesn't affect handling too much though, that's the beauty of the saddlebag. Since you're going to run the Rando bag and front panniers, there's no need for the Camper's capacity.

I used a Nelson for commuting for many years and it was perfect for that. That might be the size of bag you want to go with...15 liters. Now that I'm retired, it is my grocery carrier...I can get a gallon of milk and a bunch of bananas in it!

I also use a Pendle which is sort of a downsized Nelson...11 liters. That may well work for you and it also makes a good size for winter day rides, but it might be too small for your needs.

I don't know how much space you have between the saddle loops and rear wheel, but the Nelson hangs down about 8 inches from the saddle loops, (a Brooks B-17), while the Pendle drops down about 6 1/2 inches. These are rough measurements based on observations in my cold, dark shed so take them with a grain of salt.

Hope this is of help!

George in NoCal

[Michael Mann]

I’ve had a Nelson long flap for years and thousands of miles, commuting and touring. On my size bikes (650b 55-56cm) I need/prefer some kind of support even with fenders (I no longer bother with a rear rack even for touring) and I use a Tailfeather (no longer in production?) similar to the Erlen rack.
FYI - if you don’t have loyalty to a LBS that carries Carradice, I’ve found under current currency exchange rates it’s MUCH cheaper to order from a UK/euro dealer like Chain Reaction or Wiggle. Also true for Brooks saddles.
But support your LBS if you have one that carries what you want.
Mike

Sent from my iPhone

> On Jan 2, 2020, at 6:20 PM, George Cline <george....@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> I'm a saddlebag fan! I've commuted a lot with Carradice Bags and done a quite few tours with them. I've mostly used the Camper for touring but it is a massive beast! Doesn't affect handling too much though, that's the beauty of the saddlebag. Since you're going to run the Rando bag and front panniers, there's no need for the Camper's capacity.

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[Mark Bulgier]

I've used mostly large saddle bags for 40+ years, so maybe that's why I don't notice any adverse handling effects -- too familiar?  I do have a racing bike with no saddle bag though, so it's not like I don't know what good handling feels like.

I tend to put the heavy stuff in the saddle bag.  Six bottles of wine for example, in grocery-getter mode (not so often when touring!)  Thus my saddle bags all have to be wide enough to fit a regular wine bottle -- roughly 13" works well.  So when I ordered an Acorn a while back, to match my Acorn front "rando", I had them custom-build me one 2" wider than their standard "Large" bag, normally 11" wide in the main compartment. (They didn't charge much for the custom width, IIRC.)  Even though it is larger than their "Large", this is still the smallest saddle bag I own.

The only handling effect I can think of is side-to-side swaying when you pedal standing, and rock the bike.  I minimize that by tightening the upper straps to the max -- the ones that go through the saddle loops.  Mine all hang unimpeded by the fender (large frame size), so you will have less trouble with sway if yours sits on a rack of some kind.  Anyway, swaying while standing hardly counts as "handling" in my book, since you aren't usually steering much while standing.  If it sways, I can feel it, but it doesn't feel bad to me, just normal.  Again that might come down to familiarity after so many years -- maybe more of a negative for you.

MarkB in Seattle

[Nick Payne]

I've used Carradice bags for many years, all the way back to the 1970s. These days, on bikes where I'm using only the saddlebag, I usually have them on a Nitto saddlebag clamp and a lightweight rack underneath to keep the bag off the tyre/mudguard. Setup that way, there's no sway whatsoever even with riding out of the saddle.

Here's one bike with a Carradice Nelson longflap bag:

And a close-up of the same setup:

On my touring bike, I carry the heavy stuff in a pair of front panniers, and just pack bulky lightweight items in the saddlebag, so I use a bagman quick release rack. It specifies a weight limit of 10kg. Here's the touring bike with a Carradice camper longflap saddlebag - front panniers and handlebar bag are Ortlieb:

Nick

[Iamkeith]

My wife and I have a barley, a couple of pendles, and a big super-c. I find the barley to be ok for a fair-weather day ride, but just barely - and useless for things like grabbing a few groceries. On the other hand, I'll regularly fill the super-c to capacity in the winter with bulky jackets, so it lives on my fat bike.

If i could point to one perfect size, it would probably be the nelson. The expandable long flap would be great for touring. But there's a version without side pockets (can't remember name) that'll be the next one I buy. I find the pockets stiff and hard to use, not secure enough for small things, and cumbersome the way they protrude.

Bottom line suggestion is to get the biggest one (within reason) that fits your available space. There's so little difference between weights when empty, that there's no reason not to have the available capacity.

Also agree that they work better with a bagman or similar support. Ocean air cycles is doing a new batch of their improved version soon, together with nitto and blue lug - fyi.

[j glenn]

I was curious about how well these bags would compress down if lightly loaded, or with heavy low volume loads? 

[Mark Guglielmana]

They don't compress well, at least in my experience. 

Others have commented on using them for lightweight, bulky items, which I like to do. When credit card touring I put all of my clean clothes in a small drysack, which fits perfectly into my saddlebag. This is my Waxwing custom, about the same size as a Carradice Barley. The drysack and rain jackett fit snugly.

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[Eli Naeher]

On Thu, Jan 2, 2020, at 3:31 PM, 'j glenn' via 650b wrote:

I'm doing a little 2020 motive and opportunity Jenga in my head, and considering taking a  650b Fuji S12-S on a short tour this summer.  I've got a big Rando bag and front panniers  figured out, and figured I'd  pick up a Carradice saddle bag to carry the lighter and bulkier stuff.  Never having seen  a real British saddle bag I'm not sure how big a bag to go with. I don't want to get to large of a bag that will only get used for one week out of the year, or will  over load the rear of the bike. I've got the saddle pretty low  with a fistfull of seat post and all that but, I ordered a VO rear constructors rack  so I'm not concerned with the bag pushing on the fender. I'd be interested in hearing  folks thoughts or seeing some pictures of this sort of set up. Thanks, Woody

I have not used Carradice brand bags but I have done a number of overnights and short tours with a Swift Zeitgeist bag (size large, 11L, so probably most comparable to a Carradice Pendle in size). I think it works well. A little more space would be nice, but then maybe it would affect the handling--I don't know. And I can fit my full sleep setup (bag or quilt, pad, and tent) in the 11L size, so maybe that's enough.

I do suggest, if you can stomach the aesthetics, replacing whatever straps your bag comes with with Voile straps (make sure you get ones that are short enough). I tried this because Ultraromance recommended it on his site at one point and it really works--the elasticity of the Voile straps means that you can get them much tighter than straps made of leather or nylon webbing, and this helps a lot with sway. The bag is now really solid, even though I don't use any kind of bag support (and with my saddle height the bag is not supported by the fender).

One advantage of this style of bag is that it is really easy to strap things to the outside of them. Most have d-rings for a pair of straps across the back flap--great for bulky items that can be hard to fit elsewhere (tent poles, camp chairs, camp sandals). And you can access the main compartment without unstrapping anything. I like Arno straps (aka John's Irish Strap) for these D-rings.

-Eli

New York

[Craig Montgomery]

It might be better to go a little bit big than a little bit small. So what if you have some extra room, there's a cinch strap. I'd go the regular Nelson (long flap or not) or maybe a lowsaddle depending on saddle height. A Pendle (11 liters) at the minimum. Saddlebags are just too handy. SJS has a sale going on in this series. 15 liter Nelsons @ 75 bucks. 11 liter Pendles @ 65 bucks. Don't worry about overloading the rear of an S12-S. Not gonna happen. You'll find that a lighter front end on a well-balanced bike is more fun anyway. 

https://www.sjscycles.co.uk/carradice/?groupset=nelson&groupset=lowsaddle&groupset=pendle

Here's my 1938 Bates Grocery Getter. Rear bag is a Nelson Longflap Camper. Big. The front is a regular Nelson Longflap. This'll give you an idea of what can be stuffed. 

Craig in Tucson

[Mark Guglielmana]

 "You'll find that a lighter front end on a well-balanced bike is more fun anyway"

Oof, I disagree. I toured for several years with rear panniers and a small handlebar bag, most of the weight in the rear, definitely light up front.

I remember going up steep climbs on Hwy 1 south of Big Sur. At slow speeds the rear end was wagging. It was scary to stand with cars whizzing by! Downhills weren't very comfortable either.

Compare this to how I pack for camping now:

Most of the weight on the front. Riding this bike on the Columbia River Gorge with no shoulder it was easy to stand and climb - handling was rock solid. Downhill was a pleasure as well. I never felt unbalanced.

 

[Michael Mann]

I agree with Mark here - I've toured with rear panniers and front panniers and highly prefer the feel and handling of a front load.

btw that's me in the blue jacket bringing up the rear in Mark's last photo - outbound for the BQ Unmeeting in Carson a couple years ago. Good times! And lots of front panniers and handlebar bags on that trip ;-)

Mike

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[Mark Guglielmana]

Hey Mike! Good to hear from you. Yeah, that was a great weekend, although the climb up to Trout Lake from Carson was brutal! 

You'll probably remember this scene from our lunch stop:

10 bikes, almost all front loaded.

[Mark Bulgier]

While I agree on the negative handling effect of large rear panniers, I might object slightly to painting saddlebags with the same brush. The saddlebag might be better thought of as central rather than rear load.  Yes it's behind your CG, but not as much as rear panniers.  Plus even the biggest saddlebags don't hold as much as those giant rear panniers of yore.

[Mark Guglielmana]

Yeah, that’s about right, Mark. One of my bikes is set up with just a saddlebag for commuting, handling isn’t quite as good as when I had a handlebar bag carrying the same load, but not terribly so. It’s also much less of an investment than a rack and handlebar bag, much less a decaleur.

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On Jan 4, 2020, at 1:43 PM, Mark Bulgier <ma...@bulgier.net> wrote:



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[Michael Mann]

Agree regarding saddlebags vs panniers. I don’t think of a saddlebag as a “rear” load.

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[Craig Montgomery]

Just got back from a great ride Mark. Read your post and gotta say, nah, that's a buncha hogwash. Front versus rear bias is a cultural decision. There's no inherent superiority to either configuration. It's opinion. It's style. It's fashion. It's geography. You either drink the Koolaid or you don't. What you need as a rider is the knowledge and experience required to make either system work. Knowledge of bikes. Knowledge of packing. Takes time.That's the experience part. I'm androgynous. I go both ways. 

 

If you had read my post a little closer you would have read "a well-balanced bike". You make your argument with a bike that was obviously packed by a neophyte. It is not well-balanced. No wonder the thing was all over the road and it is no argument against rear loading. There's another consideration you missed. There are bikes, racing bikes, "sport" touring bikes, all sorts.  AND THEN there are touring bikes...a few of which are of a very high order. I have a few. They were built by craftsmen with touring experience. They built bikes on which you can survive comfortably.  A good craftsmen can build bikes to handle well with weight either shifted forward, backward, or a combination of both. That's where the balance part comes in. None of my bikes would have handled like yours.  

Photo #1   Well-balanced bike. '68 Condor Tourer built by Vic Edwards. This dog does not wag its tail. It climbs straight and smooth at slow speeds. 50mm trail. 70/30 weight distribution.

Photo #2   Well-balanced bike. '96 Waterford built Riv All Rounder 650x47's. No tail wagging! Climbed many Arizona backroads with loads biased rear, biased forward as you can see. Stable as a train. 42mm trail. Can handle 60/40, 40/60 or 50/50 weight distribution with aplomb. 

Photos #3 and #4  Very well-balanced bike. '99 Jack Taylor Tourist (this alone says it all). First is S24O configuration.Not a wag. Light and sassy front end. Fun. Second pic: Fully loaded like this I can fall asleep climbing and wake up at the top of a hill...riding straight. Out of saddle stability. Trail in upper 40's. Usually do a 60/40. 

Photos #5 and #6 Here's a gem. '65 HR Morris. Master craftsman. As you can see, it goes both ways and either set up is stable. Getting my point Mark? 

   

I have 2 or 3 other tourers that handle rear loads in combination with front,  but why belabor the point? I also have a couple of non-touring bikes I would not load with any panniers anywhere. I've found that all geometries can pretty much handle a saddlebag. 

This is NOT a photograph of an inexperienced bike tourist. Note the smirk. Or is that the smile of satisfaction that comes from riding a touring bike that handles beautifully with a rear load? 

Craig in Tucson

[j glenn]

This what my bike looked like when I got home from this last summers  6 day 300 mile attempt at touring. the first 150 miles where unrideable...   I started off with the weight  40/60 front rear, and a bunch of stiff in the handle bar bag. The frame is a triple butted high trail Koga Miyata Cityliner and it felt like I was rideing a slinky.   As shown after jettisoning 12 pounds of "stuff" at my half way point,  the weight is now at least 60/40 front rear and the bar bag is empty except for absolute necessity's.  Loaded like this I could stand up and pedal in a sprinting with a wheel barrow kind of way. The rear load consisted of bag, pad,  big free standing tent, fleece pajamas and a rain jacket, with the tent making up half the load.   For the Fuji S12-s with the smaller front panniers I have and a Nelson long flap on the back I will have to cut my gear load in half. Foods tough as I tend to travel unsupported and like to cook my meals.   

[j glenn]

Reading my post, some of the guesstements are a little off, but adding the the weight of the Jandd mountain panniers and the vinyl sleeping bag river  dry sack, toiletry kit and a couple other odds and ends all adds up. 

[Mark Guglielmana]

All I can say is, wow, some of you guys carry a loooooooooooooooooooooot of gear!

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[Michael Arciero]

Even with the advent of lightweight bikepacking bags, Carradice-type saddle bags still have their place. I still use Longflap or a Barley on occasion, and find them preferable in some applications to the Apidura seatpost bag I typically pack my sleeping setup and tent in for camping. You can reduce or eliminate adverse effects on handling by getting the bag up under the saddle. I also prefer the front panniers to rear, and find that with low riders they work fine with high or low trail, and can sometimes have the effect of increasing the stability of the bike. The only place you can put a load with no effect on handling is at the center of gravity. This is regardless of frame design.   (This is one argument for the use of full frame bags in the main triangle.) With a load on the front, the steering will be heavier but the response of the bike to steering input-which is my definition of "handling" is left largely unchanged. This allows tubing and geo specs that address performance without regard for loaded vs unloaded. A load on the rear produces a moment on the front end during turning, so bikes designed for a heavy rear load mitigate that through geometry and  stouter tubing. 

[Dave Cain]

I really can't make the argument that one configuration (front load vs rear) is better than the other although I have a decided preference for front loading. Having ridden exclusively with a front load over the last 4-5 year I love it, both in form and function. When I tour fully loaded with two front panniers and a generous handlebar bag I am unaware of the load. Everything feels natural and easy. 

If I needed more capacity I would opt for either larger panniers or the addition of a med/large saddlebag. Also (thanks to the great work of Mark G) I can install and remove my flat low-rider racks in a couple of minutes and be back in non-touring mode easily. 

Dave

www.waxwingbagco.com

www.dockittm.com

[satanas]

Gugie said: "All I can say is, wow, some of you guys carry a loooooooooooooooooooooot of gear!"

That's for sure. Some very scary pix IMHO.

Back in the 1980s the default for hostel touring in the UK was just a Carradice saddlebag, nothing else, and usually not a huge one either.

Later,
Stephen

[satanas]

PS: http://ultralightcycling.blogspot.com

[Mark Guglielmana]

Just to be clear, I'm not criticizing anyone's gear choice-I'm just giving my personal preference. I'm just wondering exactly what people are carrying to need all those loaded bags! 

On Sun, Jan 5, 2020 at 4:59 PM satanas <nsc.e...@gmail.com> wrote:

PS: http://ultralightcycling.blogspot.com

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[satanas]

FWIW, I wasn't suggesting iik's approach is desirable or approachable for most people, but rather that it is at least conceivably possible to carry less than one might think is necessary. In practice, I carry a lot more than iik, but also a lot less than in some of the pix above. YMMV.

Later,
Stephen

[Mitch Harris]

Stephen said: “Back in the 1980s the default for hostel touring in the UK was just a Carradice saddlebag, nothing else, and usually not a huge one either.”

+1
I cycle toured a lot in Britain and Ireland starting in the late 80s. Hostel touring, and carried only a Carradice saddlebag, Nelson size. Also a map in a rolled up visqueen map case. Everything I needed was in the Carradice including the next map, liner for sleeping bag (required by hostels), OM-1 or 4 SLR and extra film, a novel, tour book, guide to independent hostels, diary. Carried one pair of regular trousers and one regular shirt. Gore-tex rain parka. Carried a light musette for groceries bought in town then would ride along to the hostel to cook supper. Never needed a reservation then and was never turned away from a hostel due to no room. Met many Australians in hostels—was one of them you Stephen?

Mitch
in Utah

[j glenn]

I've definitely got some trimming to as far as gear.  The tent is a challenge, because I am kind of locked into state park campgrounds, so I need to have enough tent to provide a privacy screen and keep my gear under cover when off the bike.  In general I'm a hammock or tarp and mosquito net kind of  camper, but there's not a lot of stealth camping options "locally" 

[Mark Guglielmana]

A few years ago I was riding down Hwy 1 in NorCal on a bike tour. Pulled into a deli for a sandwich, there was a guy going south (wrong way-headwinds!) and was so loaded down  it was hard to see the bike. He had a cast iron skilled bungee corded to his load! He'd been on the road for several weeks, and seemed to be enjoying it, so who am I to say he was doing it wrong?

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[Mark Bulgier]

Mark Guglielmana wrote:

> [snip] Hwy 1 in NorCal [...], there was a guy going south (wrong way-headwinds!) 

Hmm, is that the bike-tourist consensus?  I only did it once, 43 years ago, and I didn't know anyone else to ask who'd done it.  It wouldn't have mattered -- I rode South because that's the direction I needed to go.  I was in the north and needed to be in the south.  But I was very happy about that, because I had the ocean-side views all the way down.  Splendissima!

Mark B in Seattle

[George Cline]

Prevailing winds on the California coast are generally west or northwest. There seems to be a lot of of northerly breezes.

I planned my trip from Ft Bragg to Jenner going south. That worked well.

George in NoCal

[William Humphrey]

Early in my cyclotouring days I rode through Madison, WI and happened to stop by Yellow Jersey.  The woman there took one look at my rear heavy load and educated me on proper load distribution, recommending 60/40 rear/front, which was a big improvement.  I've used the Swift Zeitgeist 11 L along with front Acorn Rando.  It handled well but I found the rear saddlebag kind of fiddly with all those straps and eventually sold it.  

Best,  Bill

[Ford Bailey]

Reminds me of the time I was camping at the Grand Tetons and met a guy riding from Alaska to Mexico with one arm. He had a giant cast iron skillet on his mountain bike's front rack ! He was having a good time, too. My setup was front (low rider) and rear panniers, with sleeping bag and tent in a stuff sack on the rear rack. My Nikon F weighed almost as much as a cast iron skillet. I do prefer from loads as well. It seems to stabilize steering.

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[David Lipsky]

Did a tour from Seattle to the Bay Area about 10 years ago. Not only did going south gave you the ocean views, but a significantly wider shoulder than you would have had if going north. This may have been a practical result of the designation of Highway 1 as a bike route (since 1976?!). 

David Lipsky in Berkeley

On Monday, January 6, 2020 at 3:50:39 PM UTC-8, Mark Bulgier wrote:

Mark Guglielmana wrote:

... I was very happy about that, because I had the ocean-side views all the way down.  Splendissima!

Mark B in Seattle

[Nick Payne]

Here's our tandem midway through a three week tour of Tasmania in 1987. The only load being carried on the rear is two pairs of sandals. The oversize front panniers were home made as I couldn't find any commercial front panniers that were large enough.

OTOH, if I'm not carrying much, like just enough for a two or three day trip staying in hotels/motels, I prefer to carry it in a saddlebag:

Nick

[j glenn]

Is that a "Camper" sized saddlebag? 

[Nick Payne]

Yes, it's the camper longflap model, which has an extendable cover if you're carrying large loads: https://www.carradice.co.uk/bags/saddlebags/originals-camper-longflap-saddlebag. I have one of them in black and one in green. I prefer the green, as it looks better as it ages. If you look at the photo of my touring bike that I posted earlier in this thread, you can see that after prolonged exposure to the sun, the black canvas starts to look red and eventually a sort of pale pink.

Nick

[Nick Payne]

BTW, this guy makes pretty nice saddlebags in various sizes: https://www.bagsxbird.com/.

I have one of his small saddlebags that I bought for use on a lightweight gravel bike. If you're using a Carradice saddlebag without a support rack underneath, they tend to collapse forwards into the back of your legs when they don't have much load in them. He adds a piece of dowel across the bottom of the bag to prevent that happening, and also adds some plastic stiffener inside the bag to help prevent it sagging onto the tyre:

Nick

[Kevin]

While it isn't a Carradice bag, I have done a few overnight tours with an older large Fabio's Chest bag. This particular loadout was for an overnight trip on the C&O Canal early last year. I had some extra space in all four of the bags and the frame bag was full but I definitely overpacked mostly due to the threat of rain. I did another overnight tour on the GAP trail with just the saddle bag, frame bag, and front wald bag over this past summer. . I have a Yellowbird Society Tailfeather rear rack and it is OK but I'd like to explore other options. The rack has too much sway and has a tendency for the round rack part to work backwards inside of the seat rail bracket. When Ocean Air Cycles lists some of the Erlin racks, or does another pre-order, I may pick one up. The Fabio's Chest cordura is also a pretty heavy bag just on its own so I might buy one make with X-Pac or make my own. I made the basket bag in the attached pic. the standard Carradice bagman rack isn't deep enough for a large Fabio's chest bag. It might be fine for a small fabio's chest but I don't have one to test.