Spoke guidance on 650b wheelset build

[Jim Bailey]

For the past 6 months I've been slowly rebuilding a nice 1986 Trek 400 Elance I picked up for a song. Ultimately I want to use 650b wheels on the bike. I have a set of Pacenti Brevet rims and some silver Shimano Tiagra hubs, both 36-hole, all still in the boxes.

I'm planning on the bike being an all-road build with gravel and occasional light trail riding. My riding weight is 190-195 lbs (86-89 kilos) and spin more than I hammer. I've built a couple of wheelsets in the past but it's been 16-20 years. I plan to build the wheels then have a guy I trust at my local shop finish up the truing.

I need 3 pieces of advice from the group:

• What are your recommendations for spoke manufacturer and model, given my intended use for the wheels?
• 
  
• Where have you sourced your spokes?
• 
  
• And, most of the measurements I'm getting for the build say 277.8mm for the front and 276.5mm (non-drive) / 274.8mm (drive) for the rear. I recall reading (maybe even Jobst) to round up measurements above .5   Does that jibe with the group's wisdom?

Thanks in advance,

Jim Bailey

Knoxville, TN

 

[William Lindsay]

I buy spokes from wheelbuilder.com

I round up to 2mm. Odd mm cost more. I still buy DT 14/15/14 but pretty much everybody else has switched to Sapim.

Bill Lindsay
El Cerrito Ca.

[David Parsons]

On Thursday, June 11, 2020 at 5:43:33 PM UTC-7, Jim Bailey wrote:

I need 3 pieces of advice from the group:

• What are your recommendations for spoke manufacturer and model, given my intended use for the wheels?
• Where have you sourced your spokes
  

• And, most of the measurements I'm getting for the build say 277.8mm for the front and 276.5mm (non-drive) / 274.8mm (drive) for the rear. I recall reading (maybe even Jobst) to round up measurements above .5   Does that jibe with the group's wisdom?

I've built a bunch of wheels (60, maybe?) and my manufacturer/model preference are first: whatever's in my spoke pile, and second: whatever SS spoke I can find cheaply on ebay.    In practice, it means I've got a lot of DT & Sapim spokes in a 50/50 ratio of straight-gauge and butted (2/1.8/2 or 2/1.6/2) round ones.

I alway round up; the spokes I've salvaged from prebuilt wheels -- which you'd expect would be all the same one or two lengths -- vary by up to 1mm up or down so if the people who make wheels for a living can work with a mm either way I guess so can I.

I think I've broken 2 spokes on the road on my wheels?  I broke more of them in the stand before I got a tension gauge -- it turns out that a stout rim will take more tension than a spoke will, and in olden days when my tensioning involved winding it up until the rim started to warp, then back off, was more than the threaded section of the spoke could take.

-david "my bad" parsons

-david parsons

[Jeffrey Arita]

Hi Jim,

I will offer up my 2 cents:

My wife and I really enjoy cyclo-touring.  We began to do this in earnest beginning in 2016.  Because of the loads associated with self-supported touring, I figured I'd better learn how to assemble wheels.  If one knew how to assemble them, repairing a wheel in the middle of nowhere should be fairly straightforward.  As a result I have managed to assemble a dozen wheels or so.  Early this year I finally purchased a tensiometer.  IMHO, it was well worth the money.

- 36 hole wheels front and rear should make for a very sturdy set of wheels.  Being 650B and shorter spokes (vs. 700c) should be quite stout.

- I have purchased spokes from Universal Cycles.  I have used nothing but Wheelsmith double-butted spokes, standard J-bend, brass nipples.

- I have used Roger Musson's spoke online spoke calculator.  Mr. Musson publishes (IMHO) an excellent book on building wheels.  I cannot comment on your spoke calculations as I do not know the dimensions you took on your hubs, what spoke pattern you desire along with the ERD of the Pacenti rims.  Roger makes a point in actually measuring the ERD for a specific rim.

I realize the third point is a non-answer and Roger may be splitting hairs, but after following his advice on trying to measure everything as accurately as possible, I haven't had any issues lacing a wheel [he describes how too short or too long can affect lacing assembly].  He also, IIRC, makes a point to only go +/- 1.0 mm in either direction.

I state this not to discourage you, only to point out that careful measurement(s) and resulting calculations can and will make the wheel assembly process smoother.  I attached a spreadsheet I use, along with a pdf of Roger Musson's spoke calcuator for a sample wheel as FYI....

Good luck!

Jeff

On Thursday, June 11, 2020 at 5:43:33 PM UTC-7, Jim Bailey wrote:

[Justin Hughes]

Unless my calc comes out to .9, I always round down. It's always worked out for me. 

If I were building these 36h hole wheels tomorrow I would spec Pillar's 2.0/1.7/2.0, double square alloy nips (DT Squorx, Pillar, Sapim Securelock) but brass on the DS rear. I really like building with double squares. I have used them on CR18s and PL23s, but you shouldn't use them on a rim any shallower than those. That's me, though. If you don't have a T-driver and don't plan to be building many wheels in the future just go with a regular Sapim Securelock or Pillar. 

I've purchased my spokes from this eBay seller by emailing him directly. Lee is good people. Send me an email if you want his email address to contact him directly. 

Oil your spoke threads and take your time. I wouldn't bring the tension up much if you're going to hand them off to someone else for tensioning and de-stressing, but take care to get optimal spoke head seating and spoke angle. 

Enjoy the build and your new wheels. And thank you for using the word jibe correctly. 

Justin
Louisville

[Eric Nichols]

Re: choice of spoke. I recommend going light, the wheel will be more resilient and maybe even last longer.

For the front: Sapim Laser. Choice of cross depends on how picky you are. I’ll generally explore the spoke lengths at 2x and 3x to see if one gives the same spoke length as the spokes on the DS or NDS rear wheel. It’s a small detail, but if you carry spare spokes it simplifies things a bit.

For the rear: Sapim Race on the drive side, Sapim Laser on the NDS. That gives equal spoke elongation on each side, making the NDS spokes less likely to go slack under transient loads. 3x is typical, but 2x works fine too.

If you want to shave weight, alloy nipples on the front and NDS rear are fine unless the bike sees a lot of winter riding and you want maximum service life. Always go brass on the drive side, it’s too easy to mangle alloy nipples in the event the wheel needs to be trued later.

Lasers are 1.5 mm in the middle, Race are 1.8. Lasers take some extra care during tensioning and truing because they have a greater tendency to twist. But the results are worth it (to me).

Eric Nichols

[Bill M.]

Sapim and DT are both good quality spokes.  I just bought a set of Sapim Race (14-15-14) spokes (for a 700c fixed wheelset) from wheelbuildingparts.com.  The vendor choice was strictly based on price, which was excellent, but their service was fine.  I rounded to an even length, odd lengths cost more.  I'll be using alloy nipples in front and brass in back from stock I already have on hand which saved a few more bucks.  

My last build used DT spokes with DT Squorx nipples.  I bought the special driver for them, and that does make the initial installation a bit easier than with a 'normal' nipple.  In that case, I ordered DT spokes, nipples, rims and hubs from Starbike.de.  I wouldn't bother with importing from Germany if all I needed was spokes.

14-17-14 spokes are light and reliable, but a pain to work with.  I don't build too many wheels so I mostly stick to what's easy for me.  I use DT's on-line spoke length calculator and have yet to run into a problem from using the published ERD for a given rim.

Bill

Stockton, CA

On Thursday, June 11, 2020 at 5:43:33 PM UTC-7, Jim Bailey wrote:

[satanas]

I generally buy spokes from Germany as it's the only easy way to get the right lengths without buying boxes of 100. They're very competitive on Schwalbe, DT/SON/SP hubs and DT rims too.

As for spokes, if it was me I'd use either:

1. Sapim CX-Ray x3 with alloy nipples front and left rear, plus brass nipples right rear, or

2. 2.0/1.8/2.0 x3 RHS rear + brass nipples, and 2.0/1.5/2.0 x3 front & LHS rear with alloy nipples. If you're paranoid, live next to the ocean, or your roads get salted in winter then stick with brass, however, there's no reason alloy nipples can't be reliable given a little care; I have some that have been in wheels for nearly 30 years with no problems

CX-Rays are light, strong, aero, and give a little better spoke clearance, plus you can see if they wind up and easily fix it; some people think this is a bug, but I think it's a feature. They are expensive though, and butted spokes can be ~30% of the price per spoke.

Sapim D-Light spokes are very reasonably priced, and I'll probably use them on the next set of (29") wheels; even the German shops seem to be stocking more Sapim than DT lately. Both DT and Sapim are good, and I expect Wheelsmith are too, so it boils down to what you can get easily, and price. Locking nipples provide a little extra insurance on the LHS of heavily dished rear wheels.

As for length, it's definitely safer to round up rather than down with alloy nipples, but most likely either way will work.

Really, with 36 spokes and wide tyres just about any decent spokes should be reliable if the wheels are built well.

Later,
Stephen

[James Bailey]

Again, my thanks to all who responded.

Light weight isn't really a concern vs durability (thus the 36* hub and rim choices), so Sapim Race spokes seem adequate. I was swayed by Peter White's comment on his website regarding DT having changed their process such that he was leery of using them. Peter built me 2 rock solid wheelsets years ago, so I trust his insights.

My hope is that the next time I post to the group about this project it will be an "All Finished" update with pictures.

Safe Rides!

Jim Bailey

Knoxville, TN

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[Nick Payne]

I've used Sapim D-Light (2.0/1.65/2.0) spokes on several wheel builds now, and have been quite impressed.

Nick

[Adam in Indiana]

I've used both DT and Sapim, but lean toward Sapim because of price.

I've purchased all of my spokes and nipples from ProWheelBuilder.com; mainly because they have good prices, but I've also had really good service from them. I prefer brass nipples, especially if you want a durable build.

On spoke length, I always round up to the next whole number. I think with modern double-wall rims you probably have a bit of wiggle room with this.

On Thursday, June 11, 2020 at 8:43:33 PM UTC-4, Jim Bailey wrote:
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