Tubeless compatible Babyshoe Pass first impressions

[Reed Kennedy]

Got a set of the new tubeless compatible Compass Babyshoe Pass 650b x 42 mm tires today and set them up on my Cycles Toussaint Velo Routier. A smattering of thoughts:

• It isn't hard to tell the new version from the old. They are marked "TC" next to the tire size on the iron-on patch. The bead is also distinctive. I'm pretty sure the Compass logo and font on the iron-on are also slightly different. Lastly, these are marked for a 60 PSI max pressure. (The old non-tubeless Babyshoe Pass was market for a 75 PSI max pressure.)
• They measure just under 41mm on Velocity A23 rims when first mounted. (Jan says they will grow a little, I'll keep an eye on them.)
• Mounting the tire on the standard A23 (front wheel) was falling-off-a-log easy. The bead was tight and I was able to inflate it on the first try with a floor pump, without any sealant in it.
• Mounting on the A23 OC (off center, rear wheel) was much, much more difficult. The bead was looser, and I ended up walking back and forth to the gas station to use their pump a couple times. Took about an hour. Went on in the end, though.
• The bead was evenly distributed on both wheels without me having to monkey with it at all. Lined right up.
• I inflated each tire up to 70 PSI to make sure they seated fully. They seemed nice and solid for all I could tell.
• I'm running them with 3oz of Orange Seal in each.
• They sound a little funny. More hollow.

I've only ridden them around the block so far, and they felt like all the other Compass tires I've used: Wonderful.

I'll put some miles on them and report back. 

Reed

[Philip Kim]

Thanks Reed for the info, I'm really glad they did this but I need to wear out my hetres before I commit!

Currently unavailable, but I use this track pump for tubeless set up. It has a separate chamber you can fill up and then release it. Works very well so far. May save you some $ and trips to the gas station.

[Brian O]

There are a handful of tubeless pumps out there now. Topeak and lezyne to name a couple. Alot of people are very partial to the topeak. I haven't personally used either but have sold many to many bicycle shops. Feedback and reorders tell the story best.

Brian

[David Cummings]

Other than sounding funny, there is no difference in ride that you can detect?  Other than they feel great, they don't feel better?  It seems like we are led to believe that tubeless is the new "tubular" of the clincher world.  Maybe I'm expecting too much?

David

[eric moss]

My experience with tubeless is only with tires that have an air-tight sidewall, so it's not as supple as one that *must* use sealant.  That affects all the things I notice.  That said, I find that I can run tires at a lower pressure without worries about pinch flats -- the snakebite would have to puncture tough casing, not just weaken a thin tube.  I find the feel to be a bit less bouncy than with tubes, probably because I'm using tires with heavier, air-tight sidewalls (Maxxis ReFuse, GravelKing SK), and I'm running at a bit lower pressure than I do with tubes.  The feel off-road is much better than with tubes, IMO, maybe because of no tube, maybe just because I can run the optimal pressure for the conditions, which is often lower than I'd go if I had tubes in.  Tubeless feels grippier -- can't say why -- probably I'm just projecting the feel I get off-road onto the feeling I get on-road.  Still, for the riding I've done, tubulars still feel best.

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[Reed Kennedy]

I didn't mean at all to imply there is no improvement in ride! Only that I had ridden them less than 100 yards and hadn't had a chance to form a real impression yet. Hence saying I'd "put some miles on them and report back".

I can certainly tell a bad tire on a ride around the block, but when moving from a very good tire to what may be a very, very good tire things are a bit more nuanced. 

I ended up riding my 700x32mm rando bike on this weekend's brevet, so I still haven't put enough miles on the new tubeless Babyshoe Pass tires to have much to say. I'll be sure to chime in once I've formed an opinion.

Reed

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[MarkReimer]

I'm running Switchback Hill tubeless, and they feel very very good to me. I've ridden a few Compass tires with tubes, as well as some FMB and Dugast tubulars. These are one of the best feeling tire setups I've tried. They do sound different, with no tube inside to act as a sound dampener. I like it!

On Monday, August 7, 2017 at 10:51:59 AM UTC-5, Reed Kennedy wrote:

I didn't mean at all to imply there is no improvement in ride! Only that I had ridden them less than 100 yards and hadn't had a chance to form a real impression yet. Hence saying I'd "put some miles on them and report back".

I can certainly tell a bad tire on a ride around the block, but when moving from a very good tire to what may be a very, very good tire things are a bit more nuanced. 

I ended up riding my 700x32mm rando bike on this weekend's brevet, so I still haven't put enough miles on the new tubeless Babyshoe Pass tires to have much to say. I'll be sure to chime in once I've formed an opinion.

Reed

On Mon, Aug 7, 2017 at 7:55 AM, David Cummings <flath...@gmail.com> wrote:

Other than sounding funny, there is no difference in ride that you can detect?  Other than they feel great, they don't feel better?  It seems like we are led to believe that tubeless is the new "tubular" of the clincher world.  Maybe I'm expecting too much?

David

• They sound a little funny. More hollow.

I've only ridden them around the block so far, and they felt like all the other Compass tires I've used: Wonderful.

I'll put some miles on them and report back. 

Reed

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[Steve Chan]

Hi Patrick,

   I ride Schwalbe Kojak 26"x2" on my commuter/beater and BSP EL tubeless on my "fun" bike. There is no comparison - the Kojak is a bald utility tire - it rolls well for a tire that I can ride through glass strewn Oakland streets with but it isn't actually a fast tire. I think even tubeless it wouldn't be an especially fast tire based on rolling resistance tests (in the tests linked to, the Kojak is significantly slower than the Conti Sport Contact II).

  The BSP EL rolls like a really cushy roadie tire - if you can ride something like the BSP EL tubeless, you should definitely go for it - a tubeless Kojak is not really going to give you a sense of the possibilities.

On Tue, Aug 8, 2017 at 10:54 AM, Patrick Moore <bert...@gmail.com> wrote:

I briefly tried folding Kojaks, 1.35", tubeless; neither tire nor rim was designed for tubeless, and while it worked as long as there was air to hold the beads in place, it seemed too iffy, to me, for reliability, so I stopped.

But while it lasted, some 50 or so glorious miles, man, those Kojaks felt like Compass tires! They felt -- seemed to roll like, seemed to absorb shock like -- my Elk Pass ELs with lightweight tubes.

So, I can only conclude that Compass ELs sans tubes would indeed be the cat's meow, the dog's pyjamas, the ne plus ultra, and possibly the truest creme de la creme of bicycle tires!

On Tue, Aug 8, 2017 at 10:01 AM, MarkReimer <markn...@gmail.com> wrote:

I'm running Switchback Hill tubeless, and they feel very very good to me. I've ridden a few Compass tires with tubes, as well as some FMB and Dugast tubulars. These are one of the best feeling tire setups I've tried. They do sound different, with no tube inside to act as a sound dampener. I like it!

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[Tony DeFilippo]

Reed thanks for the info, BSP's with A23 rims tubeless is exactly the combo is like to run on my Saluki (with fenders). 41-42 mm should be fine... Maybe next paycheck I'll pull the trigger.

[Reed Kennedy]

Ok folks! I've now done a few days of commutes and a little 20 mile ride, so I'm willing to offer up some initial impressions:

For me, running the new Babyshoe Pass tubeless offers a significantly plusher and comfortable ride compared to running the old version with tubes on the same bike, used in the same circumstances, at the same tire pressure. The best way I can explain it is that it feels like going up one or two tire sizes. When I went from 28mm tires to 35mm tires a couple years ago everything just seemed so much -nicer-. Smoother ride, less vibration, and more grip. Going tubeless feels like that same degree of improvement to me. Grip feels better too. 42mm is a lot of tire and I can't say I ever had a problem with the grip of the old Babyshoe Pass tires and tubes, but these tubeless ones feel even more secure, enough that I noticed.

What else? Well, there's the reduction in weight. My tubes weighed about 160g. Assuming that Orange Seal weighs the same as water, 3oz worth weighs about 90g. Stan's claims their tubeless valve stems weigh 7g (I didn't check). That gives me a weight savings of about 60 grams per wheel. Not a lot, but some! I think I can feel the difference, the bike seems to handle a bit faster and spin up to speed marginally quicker, but it might just be wishful thinking. For comparison, the 38mm Loup Loup Pass tire is advertised as 45 grams lighter than the Babyshoe Pass. Going tubeless saves more weight than going down a tire size.

So, initial feel and performance impressions: Running these tires tubeless is like getting the comfort of going up a tire size or two with the weight savings of going *down* a tire size. Pretty neat! 

How about flats? I commute on this bike around downtown San Francisco: SOMA, Tenderloin, FiDi, and the Mission. This is unfortunately normal: 

I ride around it when I can, but with the sheer amount of broken glass on our streets and the heavy car traffic I often just end up riding through even glass I can see. And then there's the constant bits of glass I don't notice! Yikes. With the old Babyshoe Pass tires with tubes I got two flats in my first week while running them at 50 and 55 psi. Then I lowered them to 40 and 45 psi and only got one flat in the next 10 months and ~2,000 miles. Despite all the glass and rough roads, I just don't get many flats on Compass tires, myself. They look awful, with a myriad of tiny cuts and bits of embedded glass, but they just don't seem to flat.

I *did* manage to get a serious flat on the new tubeless Babyshoe Pass tires on my very first 20 mile ride. While riding Butterlap through Fort Mason I took the little dirt path down to the Marina along the northwest corner of the park. As soon as I left the pavement something or another delivered a small slice to the tire. Sealant started to spray everywhere. I attempted to keep going, but the tire didn't seal and became very soft. I stopped and spent a while pumping, then rolling the sealant around in the tire, trying to get the cut to stop pissing sealant. After about 10 minutes it seemed to seal up. I pumped to about 38 psi (estimated) and finished the ride carefully. The tire held the rest of the way home, at which point I added 2 ounces more sealant, pumped the tire up to 50 psi, and parked it with the puncture down. Seems to be holding. Fixed, I suppose?

No idea if this indicates that this tubeless setup is going to be more fragile than the tubes were, or if this was just bad luck. The sealant seems to work, though in this case it was no less trouble than patching a tube. I'm hopeful that a smaller puncture (as opposed to this slice) would seal itself without me even noticing.

Overall? I love the performance and am slightly nervous about the durability. I'll probably put up with getting a flat every 1-2 months in order to enjoy the other benefits. If I start getting a flat more than once a month or so I'll go back to tubes. Will report back in a few months on how things are going. I also plan to try lowering my tire pressure another 5psi. Maybe even more comfort and fewer flats? We'll see.

Oh, and in case you're curious, here's how to tell the new tubeless compatible Babyshoe Pass from the old ones:

New one on top with white lettering and the "TC" marking.

Best,

Reed

[Reed Kennedy]

Thanks for the reminder Patrick! I should have mentioned: This is all with Velocity A23 rims. Standard in the front, A23 OC in the rear. Tires are the aformentioned new tubeless compatible Babyshoe Pass, valves are Stans with removable cores, rim tape is whatever Rich put on there when he built the wheels. 

The goal here was to do everything "right". I weigh 200lbs and ride, uh, joyously. Previously I set up tubeless on not tubeless compatible rims and could never quite get over the worry that it was all going to fall apart.

As to pressures, I'll note that the old Compass Babyshoe Pass was rated to 75 psi on the sidewall, and the new tubeless one is rated to "only" 60 psi. Also, after struggling to have my tire seal at 45 psi yesterday I am not much interested in running tubeless at any higher pressures for that reason alone!

In case anyone's curious, here's the rest of the bike. Taken on the way back from a camping trip just before the new tires and tubeless setup:

Best,

Reed

On Wed, Aug 9, 2017 at 8:05 AM, Patrick Moore <bert...@gmail.com> wrote:

Reed: thanks for this interesting report. Question: Your rims, as well as the tires, are tubeless ready, right?

Others: Am I right in thinking that one is best off limiting tubeless setups -- this with both beads and rims designed for no-tubes -- to somewhat lower pressures, say sub 60 psi?

I'm thinking now of another current thread which reminded me of the brief interval when I ran 559 X 1.35 folding Kojaks ghetto tubeless; the improvement in "feel" was certain; and I extrapolate to believe that this "feel" came from less rolling resistance, as well as from better "cushioning." 

Still and all, I am yet, after 18+ months, still so very tickled at the fast, smooth feel of my Elk Passes with tubes and sealant.

On Wed, Aug 9, 2017 at 8:55 AM, Reed Kennedy <re...@notfine.com> wrote:

Ok folks! I've now done a few days of commutes and a little 20 mile ride, so I'm willing to offer up some initial impressions:

For me, running the new Babyshoe Pass tubeless offers a significantly plusher and comfortable ride compared to running the old version with tubes on the same bike, used in the same circumstances, at the same tire pressure. The best way I can explain it is that it feels like going up one or two tire sizes. When I went from 28mm tires to 35mm tires a couple years ago everything just seemed so much -nicer-. Smoother ride, less vibration, and more grip. Going tubeless feels like that same degree of improvement to me. Grip feels better too. 42mm is a lot of tire and I can't say I ever had a problem with the grip of the old Babyshoe Pass tires and tubes, but these tubeless ones feel even more secure, enough that I noticed.

What else? Well, there's the reduction in weight. My tubes weighed about 160g. Assuming that Orange Seal weighs the same as water, 3oz worth weighs about 90g. Stan's claims their tubeless valve stems weigh 7g (I didn't check). That gives me a weight savings of about 60 grams per wheel. Not a lot, but some! I think I can feel the difference, the bike seems to handle a bit faster and spin up to speed marginally quicker, but it might just be wishful thinking. For comparison, the 38mm Loup Loup Pass tire is advertised as 45 grams lighter than the Babyshoe Pass. Going tubeless saves more weight than going down a tire size.

So, initial feel and performance impressions: Running these tires tubeless is like getting the comfort of going up a tire size or two with the weight savings of going *down* a tire size. Pretty neat! 

How about flats? I commute on this bike around downtown San Francisco: SOMA, Tenderloin, FiDi, and the Mission. This is unfortunately normal: 

I ride around it when I can, but with the sheer amount of broken glass on our streets and the heavy car traffic I often just end up riding through even glass I can see. And then there's the constant bits of glass I don't notice! Yikes. With the old Babyshoe Pass tires with tubes I got two flats in my first week while running them at 50 and 55 psi. Then I lowered them to 40 and 45 psi and only got one flat in the next 10 months and ~2,000 miles. Despite all the glass and rough roads, I just don't get many flats on Compass tires, myself. They look awful, with a myriad of tiny cuts and bits of embedded glass, but they just don't seem to flat.

I *did* manage to get a serious flat on the new tubeless Babyshoe Pass tires on my very first 20 mile ride. While riding Butterlap through Fort Mason I took the little dirt path down to the Marina along the northwest corner of the park. As soon as I left the pavement something or another delivered a small slice to the tire. Sealant started to spray everywhere. I attempted to keep going, but the tire didn't seal and became very soft. I stopped and spent a while pumping, then rolling the sealant around in the tire, trying to get the cut to stop pissing sealant. After about 10 minutes it seemed to seal up. I pumped to about 38 psi (estimated) and finished the ride carefully. The tire held the rest of the way home, at which point I added 2 ounces more sealant, pumped the tire up to 50 psi, and parked it with the puncture down. Seems to be holding. Fixed, I suppose?

No idea if this indicates that this tubeless setup is going to be more fragile than the tubes were, or if this was just bad luck. The sealant seems to work, though in this case it was no less trouble than patching a tube. I'm hopeful that a smaller puncture (as opposed to this slice) would seal itself without me even noticing.

Overall? I love the performance and am slightly nervous about the durability. I'll probably put up with getting a flat every 1-2 months in order to enjoy the other benefits. If I start getting a flat more than once a month or so I'll go back to tubes. Will report back in a few months on how things are going. I also plan to try lowering my tire pressure another 5psi. Maybe even more comfort and fewer flats? We'll see.

Oh, and in case you're curious, here's how to tell the new tubeless compatible Babyshoe Pass from the old ones:

New one on top with white lettering and the "TC" marking.

Best,

Reed

On Mon, Aug 7, 2017 at 8:51 AM, Reed Kennedy <re...@notfine.com> wrote:

I didn't mean at all to imply there is no improvement in ride! Only that I had ridden them less than 100 yards and hadn't had a chance to form a real impression yet. Hence saying I'd "put some miles on them and report back".

I can certainly tell a bad tire on a ride around the block, but when moving from a very good tire to what may be a very, very good tire things are a bit more nuanced. 

I ended up riding my 700x32mm rando bike on this weekend's brevet, so I still haven't put enough miles on the new tubeless Babyshoe Pass tires to have much to say. I'll be sure to chime in once I've formed an opinion.

Reed

On Mon, Aug 7, 2017 at 7:55 AM, David Cummings <flath...@gmail.com> wrote:

Other than sounding funny, there is no difference in ride that you can detect?  Other than they feel great, they don't feel better?  It seems like we are led to believe that tubeless is the new "tubular" of the clincher world.  Maybe I'm expecting too much?

David

• They sound a little funny. More hollow.

I've only ridden them around the block so far, and they felt like all the other Compass tires I've used: Wonderful.

I'll put some miles on them and report back. 

Reed

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[Mitch Harris]

thanks for all this info Reed. Sounds like there is a sweet spot of pressure for tubeless for sealing typical small punctures. Too low and it doesn't seal like Patrick has found, and too high and it doesn't seal?

--Mitch

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[David Cummings]

Indeed, thanks for the update!  Your description sounds a lot like what happens when one switches from clinchers to tubulars.  I guess that shouldn't be all that surprising.  Beautiful Toussaint!

David wishing he had Stans tape right about now in MT...

[Reed Kennedy]

Hey Mitch, just guessing here but I suspect the trouble I had getting the tire to seal the other day had a lot to do with the size of the cut. I had a tough time getting a good look at it because it was covered in sealant, but it definitely seemed on the bigger side. 

I can say that with a cut like this the tire seemed reluctant to seal at higher-pressures (guessing 50 psi from hand-feel) but once it sealed at lower pressure (high 30s) and was ridden for a little while it pumped back up to 50 psi just fine. (I'll lower it to 40-45 psi before actually riding it, I just wanted to make sure it held at higher pressure.)

My main take-away is that it seems pretty normal for a tubeless tire to spray a BUNCH of sealant before sealing. Don't be stingy with that stuff! (I'm running 3 guild ounces in my 42mm tires.)

I'm now planning to buy the MilKit system, which lets you check sealant levels and top up sealant without removing or fully deflating the tire: http://www.bicycling.com/bikes-gear/reviews/milkit-makes-maintaining-tubeless-tires-easy

Reed

[Thomas Smith]

Hey Reed. Thanks for taking the time to share your reports on these tires. When you had the flat on your recent ride, did you try putting your finger over the cut portion of the tire that's spurting sealant? A friend of mine does that when he springs a leak on his Compass BJP tubeless setup. Seems to seal up in a few seconds.

-tom

[thomas....@rapha.cc]

Thanks for the Review! I just ordered these this morning after making it 3mi on my year old WTB Horizon tires before the rear exploded from a large piece of glass. 

I'm headed to the Alps in a few weeks for a 700km bikepacking trip. A little concerned these Baby shoes are going to be a bit fragile for the terrain, given 50% of the road i'll be riding are gravel military tracks. We'll see. Likely bringing extra sealant and tubes just in case. 

Looking forward to reading some other longer ride review from guys taking these off road a lot.

Thomas

[mitch....@gmail.com]

On Wednesday, August 9, 2017 at 2:02:10 PM UTC-6, Thomas Smith wrote:

Hey Reed. Thanks for taking the time to share your reports on these tires. When you had the flat on your recent ride, did you try putting your finger over the cut portion of the tire that's spurting sealant? A friend of mine does that when he springs a leak on his Compass BJP tubeless setup. Seems to seal up in a few seconds

ah, like pressure on the site of bleeding to help initiate coagulation.

--Mitch

[Reed Kennedy]

Interesting, thanks for the suggestion Tom! I did try blocking the cut with my finger, but only briefly. It seemed to help some. I also only pressed on it when the hole was pointing up and didn't have sealant pooled around it. 

When your friend does this does he do it with the puncture pointed up or down? 

I'll try playing with orientation and holding for longer next time I get a flat, so hopefully not for a while!

One other thing I noticed while poking at it that seems obvious in retrospect: Don't pick at or wipe the puncture while it is sealing! At one point I managed to pull/wipe away a sealant booger that had been plugging the hole and had to start all over again. 

Reed

[Rick Johnson]

Another trick if you have a significant cut like that is the same as used on tubeless automotive tires - plugging. In most cases your inner tube patches will work in a pinch.

When using tire sealer it doesn't really have to be anything fancy, even a small strip of inner tube material pushed into the gap with a tool such as an Allen wrench. The idea is to at least make a big leak into a small one and let the sealer do the rest. Trim the external rems to prevent snagging.

I once used the same trick on a motorcycle trip to get me 30 miles up the road to a service station. Used my pocket knife to carved a hunk of rubber off an old valve stem found in the gravel on the side of the road. The improvised plug was installed with the help of a small screw driver and it kept me riding until I could replace it with a proper glue type plug.

"Necessity is a mother" as the saying goes.

Rick

Rick Johnson
Bend, Oregon

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On 8/9/2017 7:55 AM, Reed Kennedy wrote:

Ok folks! I've now done a few days of commutes and a little 20 mile ride, so I'm willing to offer up some initial impressions:

For me, running the new Babyshoe Pass tubeless offers a significantly plusher and comfortable ride compared to running the old version with tubes on the same bike, used in the same circumstances, at the same tire pressure. The best way I can explain it is that it feels like going up one or two tire sizes. When I went from 28mm tires to 35mm tires a couple years ago everything just seemed so much -nicer-. Smoother ride, less vibration, and more grip. Going tubeless feels like that same degree of improvement to me. Grip feels better too. 42mm is a lot of tire and I can't say I ever had a problem with the grip of the old Babyshoe Pass tires and tubes, but these tubeless ones feel even more secure, enough that I noticed.

What else? Well, there's the reduction in weight. My tubes weighed about 160g. Assuming that Orange Seal weighs the same as water, 3oz worth weighs about 90g. Stan's claims their tubeless valve stems weigh 7g (I didn't check). That gives me a weight savings of about 60 grams per wheel. Not a lot, but some! I think I can feel the difference, the bike seems to handle a bit faster and spin up to speed marginally quicker, but it might just be wishful thinking. For comparison, the 38mm Loup Loup Pass tire is advertised as 45 grams lighter than the Babyshoe Pass. Going tubeless saves more weight than going down a tire size.

So, initial feel and performance impressions: Running these tires tubeless is like getting the comfort of going up a tire size or two with the weight savings of going *down* a tire size. Pretty neat! 

How about flats? I commute on this bike around downtown San Francisco: SOMA, Tenderloin, FiDi, and the Mission. This is unfortunately normal: 

I ride around it when I can, but with the sheer amount of broken glass on our streets and the heavy car traffic I often just end up riding through even glass I can see. And then there's the constant bits of glass I don't notice! Yikes. With the old Babyshoe Pass tires with tubes I got two flats in my first week while running them at 50 and 55 psi. Then I lowered them to 40 and 45 psi and only got one flat in the next 10 months and ~2,000 miles. Despite all the glass and rough roads, I just don't get many flats on Compass tires, myself. They look awful, with a myriad of tiny cuts and bits of embedded glass, but they just don't seem to flat.

I *did* manage to get a serious flat on the new tubeless Babyshoe Pass tires on my very first 20 mile ride. While riding Butterlap through Fort Mason I took the little dirt path down to the Marina along the northwest corner of the park. As soon as I left the pavement something or another delivered a small slice to the tire. Sealant started to spray everywhere. I attempted to keep going, but the tire didn't seal and became very soft. I stopped and spent a while pumping, then rolling the sealant around in the tire, trying to get the cut to stop pissing sealant. After about 10 minutes it seemed to seal up. I pumped to about 38 psi (estimated) and finished the ride carefully. The tire held the rest of the way home, at which point I added 2 ounces more sealant, pumped the tire up to 50 psi, and parked it with the puncture down. Seems to be holding. Fixed, I suppose?

No idea if this indicates that this tubeless setup is going to be more fragile than the tubes were, or if this was just bad luck. The sealant seems to work, though in this case it was no less trouble than patching a tube. I'm hopeful that a smaller puncture (as opposed to this slice) would seal itself without me even noticing.

Overall? I love the performance and am slightly nervous about the durability. I'll probably put up with getting a flat every 1-2 months in order to enjoy the other benefits. If I start getting a flat more than once a month or so I'll go back to tubes. Will report back in a few months on how things are going. I also plan to try lowering my tire pressure another 5psi. Maybe even more comfort and fewer flats? We'll see.

Oh, and in case you're curious, here's how to tell the new tubeless compatible Babyshoe Pass from the old ones:

New one on top with white lettering and the "TC" marking.

Best,

Reed

On Mon, Aug 7, 2017 at 8:51 AM, Reed Kennedy <re...@notfine.com> wrote:

I didn't mean at all to imply there is no improvement in ride! Only that I had ridden them less than 100 yards and hadn't had a chance to form a real impression yet. Hence saying I'd "put some miles on them and report back".

I can certainly tell a bad tire on a ride around the block, but when moving from a very good tire to what may be a very, very good tire things are a bit more nuanced. 

I ended up riding my 700x32mm rando bike on this weekend's brevet, so I still haven't put enough miles on the new tubeless Babyshoe Pass tires to have much to say. I'll be sure to chime in once I've formed an opinion.

Reed

On Mon, Aug 7, 2017 at 7:55 AM, David Cummings <flath...@gmail.com> wrote:

Other than sounding funny, there is no difference in ride that you can detect?  Other than they feel great, they don't feel better?  It seems like we are led to believe that tubeless is the new "tubular" of the clincher world.  Maybe I'm expecting too much?

David

• They sound a little funny. More hollow.

I've only ridden them around the block so far, and they felt like all the other Compass tires I've used: Wonderful.

I'll put some miles on them and report back. 

Reed

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[Jeff Bertolet]

I have used them tubeless for ~100 miles of gravel (and maybe 400 miles on pavement) under conditions varying from manicured hard pack to singletrack and dry stream beds. I've had one sidewall cut, it was big enough i put in a tube cause I didn't want to wait for sealant to work.

Don't be afraid to run the pressure pretty low. I blame the sidewall cut on using too high pressure. I had lowered my front tire pressure because it was bouncing around on the rocks, but was too lazy to do the rear. The rear ended up with the sidewall cut. I run them at ~25 psi offroad. I figure if they bottom out once per ride the pressure is about right.

[Thomas Smith]

He puts his finger on it with the puncture at the top (12 o'clock) position. Probably holds it for 30-40 seconds. 

-tom

Sent from my iPhone

[Justin Hughes]

Great feedback, Reed. I run tubeless SBH at 28/32psi (I weigh 195#) and perhaps the most remarkably noticeable improvement over any other tire I've ridden is the grip. I feel so confident on those tires. 

I must be missing something regarding the MilKit system. What of any significance does this offer that the tubing and dipstick included with a bottle of Orange Seal doesn't? Actually, I find I no longer use the dipstick and just shake the wheel to hear/feel the amount of sealant. 

FWIW, I have used an old children's medicine syringe to collect good sealant from a tire I was replacing because of a desire to change and found it works well. You could use this and the Orange Seal tubing to accurately dose out your sealant. 

Justin

[Reed Kennedy]

Huh! My bottles of Orange Seal never came with a dipstick, and it never occurred to me to create one. That is certainly a much simpler (and less expensive) solution.

I used to just shake my old tubeless wheels, which I often had off the bike. This bike is my commuter and I intend to keep it tubeless all the time, hopefully. I haven't been able to get a good feel for the amount of sealant still in there when shaking the wheels while they're still on the bike.

I suppose in theory the MilKit system allows you to check sealant levels without (fully) deflating, but that's a minor advantage. I'll go make myself a dipstick, thanks!

Also great to hear your positive impressions of the SBH tires, and the impressively low pressures you're able to run them at! My new custom, designed around the SBH, should be ready in about a month...

Reed

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[Mitch Harris]

On Saturday, August 12, 2017 at 8:44:22 PM UTC-6, bertin753 wrote:

Mitch: the "too low" I experienced was with tubes; without tubes, and with a tire with very thin casing, O Seal seems to work down to the teens. It was with the same tires with tubes, at low 20s, that O Seal wouldn't seal thorn holes (which is why I went tubeless). 

Ah, good to know the difference between sealant in tubes or in tubeless tires. 

--Mitch 

[David Cummings]

I had the same experience with Orange Seal in tubes! I thought it would be a magic bullet, but not below 2 bar with a snakebite. 

Sent from Dave's rockin' iPhone

On Aug 12, 2017, at 8:44 PM, Patrick Moore <bert...@gmail.com> wrote:

Mitch: the "too low" I experienced was with tubes; without tubes, and with a tire with very thin casing, O Seal seems to work down to the teens. It was with the same tires with tubes, at low 20s, that O Seal wouldn't seal thorn holes (which is why I went tubeless). 

[Rudi Van Desarzio]

Man I don't know. I've been running Hetre's tubeless on these same atlas rims for 2 years, but I can't get the damn Babyshoes to mount up. 

You ever get the feeling that Compass's whole business is based on telling you how AWESOME everything they do is but then it's kinda not when you try it? 

[eric moss]

Not really.  Few manufacturers of rims or tires adhere to any standard but their own, so getting tubeless to work is completely hit and miss.  Mavic UST is an actual standard for MTB, and their road tubeless dimensions work great for any brands that follow them.  But Conti tires have since (forever) fit tight, and Velocity rims fit loose, making them pair nicely.  Conti on Enve rims is a disaster awaiting your thumbs, though.  Hetres on Velocity were instant blow-offs for me.  Given that Ted King is regularly placing first or second in 100+ mile gravel races on Compass, I bet he has found the rim that works just right.

On Wed, Jun 5, 2019 at 7:48 PM Rudi Van Desarzio <vande...@gmail.com> wrote:

Man I don't know. I've been running Hetre's tubeless on these same atlas rims for 2 years, but I can't get the damn Babyshoes to mount up. 

You ever get the feeling that Compass's whole business is based on telling you how AWESOME everything they do is but then it's kinda not when you try it? 

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[Steve Palincsar]

On 6/5/19 8:48 PM, Rudi Van Desarzio wrote:

Man I don't know. I've been running Hetre's tubeless on these same atlas rims for 2 years, but I can't get the damn Babyshoes to mount up. 

You ever get the feeling that Compass's whole business is based on telling you how AWESOME everything they do is but then it's kinda not when you try it? 

Actually, I've *never* had that experience.

-- 
Steve Palincsar
Alexandria, Virginia 
USA

[Paul Sherman]

Yeah, not really. Jan is an excellent marketer with a tendency to state his opinions/preferences as facts, which leads me to take many of his claims with a grain of salt, but all of my experience with Compass/RH products/service has been outstanding. I can see plenty of reasons not to buy their products (price, aesthetic, etc.), but if your intended use matches the that of the product (i.e. 11s classically-styled subcompact crankset or super wide race-weight tires) I don’t think there are better options out there. All that being said, I’m skeptical of what value the new “Endurance” tire line offers over the similar (but cheaper) WTB tires.

[Rudi Van Desarzio]

Well, I've had a couple of such experiences. Actually 3 now. Nothing major I suppose, but enough to maintain a niggling skepticism that there's a healthy chunk of hype in their claims of heroic engineering perfection. As an engineer myself, my hubris alarm goes off. But then I've always been more of an Oldsmobile type of guy than a top shelf sort ( I know I'm mixing metaphors, but the car thing suddenly bored me). 

In any event, I don't know what a couple extra layers of gorilla tape weighs, but that ended up working with my baby shoes. Was just frustrated in the moment.

[Steve Chan]

   I had no problem running BSP ELs tubeless on compatible rims (Pacenti PL23), and had no trouble running them at just over 40 psi (I weigh 180). At least for the earlier generation that I ride on, they suck at holding pressure for more than a few days, but that is kind of expected with the earlier BSP ELs.

   What Jan is really reporting is his own experiences, and he has a clear set of preferences and skills. Within the framework of his subjective preferences and personal set of skills, he uses rational and objective methods to maximize his enjoyment of cycling. Thats all that you can reasonably expect from BQ.

On Wed, Jun 5, 2019 at 5:48 PM Rudi Van Desarzio <vande...@gmail.com> wrote:

Man I don't know. I've been running Hetre's tubeless on these same atlas rims for 2 years, but I can't get the damn Babyshoes to mount up. 

You ever get the feeling that Compass's whole business is based on telling you how AWESOME everything they do is but then it's kinda not when you try it? 

--