Almost ready to pull the trigger...

[velomann]

I've been a lurker on this site for a couple of years. I've also been saving for a bit longer for a custom rando rig, and I'm about ready to make the leap and order a bike. Exciting and scary. When I first started envisioning this, I was planning on a 700c bike, but the more I read BQ and this group, and the more I talk to fellow distance riders, the more I'm leaning towards 650b. But I'd appreciate any advice from those who have been down a similar path.

A few details. I live in Portland, and have a wealth of framebuilders available. But I also want to go with someone who's got experience, and realize there's a lot of folks who have built a few bikes, but a smaller number who have built a lot, and probably less who can talk with extensive experience in 650b vs 700. I'm 52 years old and this will be my first - and possibly last - custom bike. I'm 5'8", about 140 lbs, so on the small/light side, and by some opinions right on that line where I might get a better fitting/handling frame if I go with 650b. I have done some riding with the Oregon Randonneurs, but my longest distance so far is a 300K - though a full SR series is high on my list of goals.

I'm more of a function-over-form kinda guy. I like DT shifters and plan on going with a 2x8 or 2x9 drivetrain. I like lugs, but not ornate ones, and I'm happy with the durability of a powdercoat frame vs a fancy multi-color job. When I was originally looking, I liked what Charles lathe was doing at Coho, though he's since gone out of business, apparently. I like the MAP rando project a lot, and it's a definite consideration. But when I compare it to the comparable Boulder Bicycles randonneuring bike, it's hard to see what the extra $1000 for the MAP bike is getting me. I also like the fact that Boulder has the 7/4/7 lightweight tubing option which as a light rider I think might be a good way to go. I also like Ebisu and may go that route.

But full disclosure - I've never ridden a 650b bike. Not even 1 mile. It's not an easy bike to test ride, and even if I did, I figure you really don't know if it's working for you until you're 40 miles into your ride, or a few months into the relationship.

So...I'm looking for advice. If you have been this route, I'd love to hear how your decision went and who did you decide to go with. Good and bad stories welcome. And if you are a builder, I'd love to hear from you, either public or PM.

I'm not in a hurry, but I don't really want to get on a 3-year wait list either.

Thanks,
Mike

[Ken Freeman]

I'm not an expert by any means but I've done some similar searching.  I initially targeted a 42 mm 650b bike from one of the builders well-reviewed in BQ.  Off to make some phone calls: I found Peter Weigle will take several years and prices his work a lot higher than say, Boulder (but if you've seen any on Ebay, it's a fine investment); Mike Terraferma will build as quickly as his schedule allows within the constraints of his day job and is very reasonably priced, Mitch Pryor similarly delivers pretty quick within the context of his Project project but is priced higher than Boulder.  Dave Wages (Ellis Cycles) can also produce relatively quickly.  I spoke with a fellow Lister or maybe on Randon, who engaged Sacha White.  Loves the bike but it did take a while.  I didn't look at Ebisu.

Considering opportunities, Boulder does a discount program for off-the-peg about once a year, usually taking orders in the Autumn, the MAP project should be kicking off, and Tom Matchak's strategy is to work in windows - within those he can deliver well.

I think the reason for 650b is not rolling efficiency (tires similar to the Hetre are made for 622), but stability and cushioning over a wide range of road surfaces.  Riding in Michigan you either need a hard butt or help from the bike if you really want to see the pretty places.

I ended up buying a lightly-used Terraferma that is a close fit.  It's taking me a while to sort out the final build, but it rides very well indeed.  I haven't finished with the fenders or the front rack, but I like the handling without the front load, even with low trail.  It's made from standard diameter OX Plat (7-4-7), and planes nicely.  If I end up going with a true custom-for-me, I'll go back to the same fellows, and add Jeff Lyon to the list of candidates.  But I already know Mike Terraferma builds a great-riding bike.

One challenge on some of these bikes is minimizing the crankset Q with a triple (or even a double).  The problem is that the chainstays are placed a lot more widely than on a 700c bike intended for a max tire of 28 with fenders.  I've managed to get a TA Cyclotourist triple on with a Q of 148 mm, but the clearance between the crank arm and the chainstay is only a few mm. On the Terra the stays are not dimpled and are rather beefy-looking for minimum rear-end flex, so that might not be typical.  However Heine dealt with a similar problem with his custom Herse, and his crank design would work for me, too.  I don't recall if I used the Shimano 124 mm width or the 127.  

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Ken Freeman
Ann Arbor, MI USA

[WMdeR]

Dear Mike,

Another suggestion, one that doesn't follow this list but is responsive to email/phone, is Joshua Bryant (cyclesjbryant.com) in Portland, OR.  He's relatively new, but gets the integrated design and the needs of a good 650B machine.  

RE: Boulder Bicycle.  Mike Kone work hard to get a machine that performs well for you.  His "Allroad" is a refined (fourth-generation) machine, has the kinks worked out of the design (disclosure: I test-rode the first two prototype generations, made suggestions over six months or so, and ended up buying the light tubing test-bike at cost--they've gotten better since, as he added the 5mm of rake I recommended, a few clunky design elements have disappeared from the spec, and the lighting is better-integrated now).  If you like welded machines, it is a good value.  The lugged ones start getting expensive enough that a new/less-established builder is going to be nearly price-competitive, and the lugged machines give no performance advantage (my Boulder machines are welded for this reason.  I am not a lug snob.).

Ken Freeman gives good advice in his post, and the Boulder Allroad will fit a TA double crank with a standard spindle length with reasonable clearance, yielding a tread width below 140mm.

I'd recommend looking at Mike's website ( renehersebicycles.com ; it'll take a bit of navigation to get to the Boulder Bicycle bike page), and giving him a call.  He's responsive to telephone and, ordinarily, email correspondence.  If you've got any questions about the design or how it rides/handles, I can address those from an informed outsider's perspective.  Details of customization and what he will and won't do, I can give some insight, but he'd be the one to talk to about those items.  

note:  I've tested 650B and 700C bikes for Mike, designed a (superseded) lighting system for him, and own three of his machines (two Boulder Bicycles and a Rene Herse).  He's a friend.  I have no economic interest in Boulder Bicycle or Rene Herse Bicycles.

Best Regards,

Will

William M. deRosset

Fort Collins, CO

[Matthew J]

Tony Periera is in Portland or Seattle.

[Leslie Bright]

1st suggestion: a 52 Sam Hillborne, http://www.rivbike.com/product-p/f-hillborne-blue.htm

I think that'd be my best suggestion. However, a Hilsen might be good too: http://www.rivbike.com/product-p/f-hilsen.htm

[Jan Heine]

At 9:17 AM -0400 10/7/12, Ken Freeman wrote:

>One challenge on some of these bikes is minimizing the crankset Q
>with a triple (or even a double). The problem is that the
>chainstays are placed a lot more widely than on a 700c bike intended
>for a max tire of 28 with fenders. I've managed to get a TA
>Cyclotourist triple on with a Q of 148 mm, but the clearance between
>the crank arm and the chainstay is only a few mm.

Mike Terraferma's 650B bikes all have the chainstays so wide that you
cannot use a standard chainline. You need to move the cranks outward,
which means that your shifting is not ideal, especially if you tend
to ride a lot in the larger cogs and on the big ring in the front.

It is possible to build a bike for 650B x 42 mm tires and have the
correct chainline. My Herse is built perfectly, but I chose to narrow
the tread (Q factor) further by using a BB spindle that is 3 mm
narrower and move the chainline to the big ring. That is why I
tapered the cranks ever-so-slightly.

Compare my tread (Q factor) of 139 mm with modern Rene Herse cranks
that are a tad wider than the TA you use. (The Herse cranks are
designed for use with modern 10-speed drivetrains, the TA cranks are
not, even though they can be made to work if you select your front
derailleur carefully.)

Jan Heine
Editor
Bicycle Quarterly
http://www.bikequarterly.com

Follow our blog at http://janheine.wordpress.com/
--

[David Yu Greenblatt]

Mike,

Another option would be to try 650B with a relatively inexpensive production frameset, confirm that you really do love Hetres, dial in your fit on the bike, determine your preferred bag size, etc., and then take the leap into a custom bike which will hopefully last you a very long time if not the rest of your life. That is what I did, using the Rawland rSogn (and from the specs the Stag looks like it will have some improvements). When you receive your totally awesome Weigle/MAP/Boxer/whatever, the Rawland will still gets tons of use for commuting, riding around town, off-road exploring with knobby tires, etc.  

Best,

David

[DanielYorbaLinda]

I'd recommend not getting either Rivendell bike. If you're interested in standard diameter 7/4/7 tubing, then you'll likely find the Riv tubing to be too stout.

 

Moreover the Hilsen's getting in custom frame pricing.

 

Being in Portland, you should be able to get a test ride in somewhere/somehow. Maybe someone on the list will oblige. I believe you may even be able to see some nice 650B bikes at Velo Cult (in Portland). I'd ask about their Nobilette demountable.

 

I think the sources you're considering are spot on. The other builders mentioned here are great, too. Maybe add Boxer to the list. He's going to a run a la the MAP project. I was very impressed with some of Jack Franklyn's work and would consider him as well.

 

Daniel

Yorba Linda, CA

[Bill M.]

Mike,

The 54 cm Rawland Nordavinden is 650b, with an effective top tube of 54 cm and a 155 mm head tube.  Depending on your proportions and preferred bar - saddle drop, it might be a reasonable fit for you.  If the sizing is close, you might want to take a $725 flyer on one.  That would get you into the 650b, low trail, thin wall standard diameter tubing range (7/5/7 top tube, 8/5/8 down tube) for minimal outlay (compared to a custom).  Build it, ride it, see what works and what doesn't, order your custom frame and ride the Rawland while you wait, then transfer the parts over to your 'keeper'.  Whatever you lose on the frame would be more than made up for in what you learned.  

I have both a Rawland rSogn and a Nordavinden (56 cm, 700c).  The Sogn rides nicely, but for strictly road riding I prefer the lighter springier feel of the Nordavinden.  FWIW, I'm 5'9", 84 cm PBH, 73 cm saddle height, and would think the 56 Nordavinden was too big if I were any shorter.  I have a Thompson setback seatpost on mine, and I can't insert it much lower than it is or the 'kink' in the post would hit the collar.

BTW, have you looked at the Box Dog Pelican?  It's a good looking bike, and I believe they have done thinner wall tubing on some as a special order.

Bill

Stockton, CA

[Aaron Young]

I agree with Daniel regarding stopping by Velo Cult to see the Nobilette they offer.  That will likely be your best bet in terms of value since I believe the bike is full custom for you at a very reasonable price.  I'm very interested in getting one of these myself. 

In any case, get yourself some 650b!  I wondered about 650b for 6 years until I finally converted my trek 400 this summer.  I should have done it 6 years ago.

Best of luck,

Aaron Y.

Vancouver, WA

On Monday, October 8, 2012, DanielYorbaLinda wrote:

 

Being in Portland, you should be able to get a test ride in somewhere/somehow. Maybe someone on the list will oblige. I believe you may even be able to see some nice 650B bikes at Velo Cult (in Portland). I'd ask about their Nobilette demountable.

 

 

Daniel

Yorba Linda, CA

[velomann]

My thoughts exactly regarding the Rivendell bikes. I have tons of respect for Grant, read his writing, agree with nearly all of it, own several Brdgestones (one autographed. But....I think he's got this thing about overbuilding his frames and seems obsessive about minimizing flex. I've heard others describe their Rivs as riding like "pigs." really pretty, comfortable pigs.

[velomann]

Thanks all for the wonderful, thoughtful advice. As a couple of you mentioned, Living in Portland and riding a 650b bike will open up a whole world of riding I currently would be hesitant to explore on skinny tires. Most of what i was thinking was confirmed, with the addition of a couple of avenues to explore I hadn't considered. The Nobillette at Velocult is intriguing - I knew Sky had one on the floor, but did not know ordering was possible - I'll go in and have a beer and find out what's what on that. Theo was super gracious (as always) in the offer to let me test ride his new MAP Randonneur - an offer I'd be a fool not to take him up on, so test ride on a sweet bike in the near future coming up.

And pretty sure a phone call to Boulder Bikes is in the plan soon as well.

As far as getting my feet wet, I think my best bet would be to pick up a pair of budget-y 650b disc brake wheels and try them out on my Lemond Poprad disc cyclocross bike - something I've been considering for awhile. It won't be the ride I ultimately have in mind, but should be interesting and fun. I think the possibility has been discussed on this site. Has anyone actually tried this yet? BTW - the Poprad uses 130 rear spacing, so rear disc hub selection is limited and I'm not interested in spreading it. Anyone have a good recommendation for which build to use (or pre-built) for a 650b disc brake wheelset with 130 rear spacing?

[Alex Wetmore]

From: velomann [velo...@gmail.com]

> As far as getting my feet wet, I think my best bet would be to pick up a pair of budget-y 650b
> disc brake wheels and try them out on my Lemond Poprad disc cyclocross bike - something
> I've been considering for awhile.

If you ultimately want a disk brake 650B bike then this makes sense. If your ultimate 650B bike will have rim brakes then I'd recommend building rim brake wheels for your trial and finding a suitable frame for the conversion. I don't think that you'll be satisfied with disk brake wheels on a high end/custom rim brake bike (or at least I wouldn't be). It isn't hard to find 700C frames suitable for conversion.

alex

[Ken Freeman]

Sorry, meant to share!

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Ken Freeman <kenfre...@gmail.com>
Date: Thu, Oct 11, 2012 at 8:55 AM
Subject: Re: [650B] Re: Almost ready to pull the trigger...
To: DanielYorbaLinda <datadat...@gmail.com>


Just looked at Velo Cult's site, no mention of Nobilette bikes.

Plus, doesn't a demountable feature usually add a bunch of $$ to the frame price?  If the Nobilette at V-C is low cost, like a Boulder, it will be more like a Boulder/Waterford lugged by the time couplers are bought and added.

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Ken Freeman
Ann Arbor, MI USA

[Christian]

Mike,

For what it's worth: I had never ridden a 650B bike either before I ordered my Terraferma 2.5 years ago.  I'll never go back.  I had made the transition by then to wide tires and a front load and dirt roads.  So, for me, 650B with 42 Hetres was an easy decision.  My Terraferma can do just about anything I want it to: I've done two SR series on it and lots and lots of gravel road riding where I really beat the crap out of it.  The only thing I'd not do on it is loaded touring.

The benefits of 650B have been well articulated in this thread and others so I won't rehash them--I agree with all, more or less, that's been said.  I would ask yourself what you think you have to lose by going 650B.  I decided there was nothing I would lose, but the answer might be different for you.  Forgive me if I sound insulting to you or anyone else who tries to make this same decision but I think at a point people overthink the problem of 650B vs 700c.  It's not like making the transition to a recumbent.  It's still just a bike.  Of course there are differences--if there weren't then we'd not be having this discussion.  My guess is that you'd not at all be disappointed in the wheel size and likely quite pleased.

Best wishes,

Christian   

[Ken Freeman]

I agree totally. I find it to be at least as fast, much smoother, and more stable than 28 or 32 mm 700c, though I have not tested all on the same bike.

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[singlecross]

On Thursday, October 11, 2012 1:44:29 AM UTC-4, velomann wrote:

As far as getting my feet wet, I think my best bet would be to pick up a pair of budget-y 650b disc brake wheels and try them out on my Lemond Poprad disc cyclocross bike - something I've been considering for awhile. It won't be the ride I ultimately have in mind, but should be interesting and fun. I think the possibility has been discussed on this site. Has anyone actually tried this yet? BTW - the Poprad uses 130 rear spacing, so rear disc hub selection is limited and I'm not interested in spreading it. Anyone have a good recommendation for which build to use (or pre-built) for a 650b disc brake wheelset with 130 rear spacing?

I have ridden my Poprad Disc converted to 650B for the last 2 summers with Velocity P35 rims on XT disc hubs and Soma B-line 38mm tires. I convert back to 700cx35 studded Nokian and Velocity/ XT disc wheels for the winter snow and ice riding/commuting. I hand spread the frame when I insert the rear wheel and the 135 rear disc hub spacing has been no problem for my comfort level or rotor alignment. Mine is currently built with Moustache bars and and a MTB drivetrain for use as a rough stuff bike ( dirt roads and smooth, dry singletrack and some farm fields riding). Built like a XO-1 or Riv All-Rounder, I Love this bike! Reasonably inexpensive 650B prebuilt wheels are available on Ebay, albeit with 135 rear rubs. You should be able to buy, try, and sell the wheels for little loss with the rise in 650B MTB popularity. The downside of the Poprad Disc is kludgy fender and rack mounting (there are rear eyelets on the dropouts but no eyelets on the seatstays and a non-existent chainstay bridge behind the bottom bracket to mount a fender to). P-clips and zip ties will be your friend if trying to mount fenders.

Try it, I think you'll like it. I like mine enough to have a spare/ backup Poprad Disc frameset hanging in the basement for whatever reason.

Best...

Adam

DownEast maine

[Michael Mann]

I would also like to hear more about this conversion. I also have a Trek 400 - 1984, I believe (the first year this frame was brazed in Japan). It's in nearly new condition and just waiting for the right idea...

Sent from my iPad

On Oct 11, 2012, at 1:17 PM, Richard S <rish...@coca-cola.com> wrote:

Aaron, I also have Trek 400 - 1985 that I purchased new and still in beautiful condition. I've thought about converting to 650B on this bike and I'm curious to know if you had any issues with your conversion? What tires are you using?

 

Thanks very much for your advice,

Richard S

Atlanta, GA

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[Aaron Young]

My Trek is a 1986 400T Elance, black with silver head tube.  Overall it's in great shape.  I bought I on Craigslist in St Louis about 6 years ago.  

The conversion to 650b was easy.  I got the wheel set from VO.  I wanted to try center-pull brakes so I went with Dia-Compe model 750 because they have the recessed Allen front and nutted rear which is what these frames have.  The pads sit right in the middle of the slot so there is plenty of room to adjust in either direction.  Right now I have Col de la vie tires on there because they were the cheapest. They fit easily.  I've seen photos online of a 400 with Hetres, so I guess they fit. I removed the screws from the rear dropouts so the widest part of the tire sits further back between the chain stays to increase clearance a bit.  This is mostly because the VO skewers slip a bit when I'm really mashing up hills.  

I'm currently fitting stainless steel VO fenders for the rainy season here in Portland.  The initial conversion was easy as I said, but the fenders have been tricky.  But so it goes with fenders.  

I keep intending to put some pics up somewhere, but I never get around to it.  In any case, hope this was helpful.

Aaron Y

Vancouver, WA

[Richard S]

On Saturday, October 6, 2012 4:29:15 PM UTC-4, velomann wrote: