First Impressions: Grand Bois Ecureuil & Lierre tires

[Barker Bob]

I had a road bike converted to 650b that was a little snug in the fork and thought i'd try a slightly smaller tire than the 38mm Panaracer GK's I was running. I was intrigued by some of the weight quotes on the Grand Bois website so I ordered both a "lightweight" version of the Lierre - which has a significant tread on it and even though it's allegedly 35mm it weighs 10g more than the 38mm Pana GK's - and also a Ecureuil which is their 38mm which, at an amazing 240g, weighs only 77% of the same size Panaracer GK.  The tires were both 5,000 yen plus 2,000 yen for shipping to Orygon was ~ $112 or $56 each delivered.  Both tires weighed just *under* their respective advertised weights.

The bike has Pacenti Brevet wheels.  I mounted the Lierre first.  I mounted easily (like the Panaracer GK's).  I blew it up to 60psi to seat the bead and then lowered that to 35psi.  (I weight 160lbs)  Then I measured the width with calipers to verify the claimed 35mm and found, instead, that it's actually 38mm as installed.  Without even riding it.  Well so much for that experiment!  

I removed the Lierre from the front wheel and installed the Ecureuil.  It also installed easily.  This time I inflated it to 35psi (without over inflating it 1st).  The "38mm" tire measured 36.5mm wide as installed. Then I put the Lierre on the rear wheel, inflated it to 38psi and took the bike out for a ride.  It was easy to feel the difference.  The front end was "livelier" and felt "lighter" - more nimble.  The tire's ability to absorb shocks was the same but that's a function of tire volume which is approx the same.  Back in the parking lot I put down a dime and a nickle and ran over them.  I could tell the dime from the nickle but, to be honest, I couldn't tell heads from tails.  ;^)  When I got back I remeasured the tires and the Ecureuil on the front had grown to 37.5mm. The Lierre hadn't changed - it was still 38mm.

So here's my take on these Grand Bois tires:

1st of all my reference here is the Panaracer Gravel Kings which in the 38mm size weights in at 310g and IMHO is a great tire.  Before the Ecureuil it was the lightest 38mm tire i've found in 650b and i've got hundreds of flat-free miles on them.  But the Ecureuil takes light, subtle road tires to a whole new level.  This puppy weights 235g!  It feels like i'm riding on tubulars. How it will be able to resist punctures only time will tell but I intend to find out.  

The Lierre, on the other hand, is a tire without a point.  It's got a heavy pointless tread and it lies about it's size.  For a tire that's *supposed* to be 35mm it's obese.  It weighs 10g more than the Panaracer GK's and costs significantly more.  And the worst part of this is that, to my knowledge, there still isn't a quality, lightweight 650 x 35B tire available to those of us trying to re-purpose great old road bikes held back by their skinny tires.  Panaracer are you listening? 

[David Parsons]

On Sunday, June 30, 2019 at 11:21:51 PM UTC-7, Barker Bob wrote:

...  to my knowledge, there still isn't a quality, lightweight 650 x 35B tire available ...

Try the Hutchinson Confrerie.   They're 33+change mm on Brevets.

-david parsons

[Barker Bob]

On Monday, July 1, 2019 at 9:06:45 AM UTC-7, David Parsons wrote:

Try the Hutchinson Confrerie.   They're 33+change mm on Brevets.

Yes, I have them on my Vitus 992 and, like you, i'm a fan.  But they have a fairly thick belt whose edge sticks out ~ 1mm exactly at the widest point of the tire so the true width is barely 32mm.  And this leaves a big unfilled hole of available sizes between 32mm and 38mm.  There's lots of great road bikes with carbon forks out there that won't take a 650 x 38b but would take a 650 x 35b.  

[David Parsons]

It depends, I guess, on the rim.  The edge of the tread sticks out a little bit on the Brevets, but I've an older set of SL23s (and Confreries) where the sidewalls are proud of the tread and, again, 33 & change  (I also have a set on Ztr355s in the basement and they're over 34mm there, which fits with a tiny bit of breathing room under a Reynolds Ouzo fork.)   And then there are the Panaracer version of the Pari-Moto, which clock in at 36mm on Grand Bois rims & A23s  (the set on the Grand Bois rims are on my youngest's bicycle, which is a oh-my-god-that-fork-is-narrow Specialized Sirrus.)

So, maybe with careful rim selection you can get a Confrerie to be honestly 34mm, or a flat magnet (Pario-Moto) to squeeze under 36?  Not as an "let's take this rim off the shelf and use it" thing, of course!

-david parsons

 

[alight]

On Sunday, June 30, 2019 at 11:21:51 PM UTC-7, Barker Bob wrote:

So here's my take on these Grand Bois tires:

Wow that's light! Any chance you could measure the tread thickness on the Ecureuils? I've been riding Loup Loups for a few years that will need replacing soon and wondering if these will be a good option.

Austin in Portland, OR

[Barker Bob]

On Monday, July 1, 2019 at 4:19:37 PM UTC-7, alight wrote:

Any chance you could measure the tread thickness on the Ecureuils? I've been riding Loup Loups for a few years that will need replacing soon and wondering if these will be a good option.

Sorry I can't give you the thickness but it looks painted on as compared to other tires.  Obviously the only practical drawback to ultralight casings is their vulnerability to puncture and how much of a drawback that would be to you depends a lot, I suspect, on where you ride. I'm fortunate that there doesn't seem to be much glass, etc in what we pretend are bike lanes in my area (Coquille valley, OR) and I can't remember my last flat.  You may not be so fortunate - I can't know.

BTW: The supposed "lightweight" 38mm Loup Loup - which in made for RH by Panaracer - is 333g while the excellent Panaracer Gravel King 38mm is only 310g and much cheaper.  So if you're willing to experiment try the Ecureuil.  If not go with Gravel kings.  

Also tubes can make a big difference.  IE: there's no point in buying ultralight tires and then stuffing them with heavy tubes.  I'm running Maxxis Fly Weight 26x1.5 tubes which weigh a mere 84g - about the same weight as the goop those of you who are going tubeless are adding to your tires.  They don't seem to be available in the US for unknown reasons.  But they definitely add to the "riding on tubulars" effect.

[Scott Stulken]

I hear you on the "hole" in between 32mm and 38mm.  My broken-in Panaracer Col de la Vie's measure about 35.5mm (40psi) and 36.5mm (50psi) on 18mm inner rims, but they're hard to recommend once you've ridden on nicer tires.  The Lierre tread, while a neat throwback, was always kind of a turn-off for me as well.

The Grand Bois 650B rim is only 17mm inner... if one had to, that might be one of the better choices if you had to "pull in" a tire for a tight-fitting frame.

- Scott

[Reid H]

The Ecrureuils tread is very thin.  I used a set for 600km on my Jo Routens and loved them for 500k.  Then a puncture in the front and another 50k later in the rear was it for me.   Back to Compass/Rene Herse tires as I haven't had any flats on them with many thousands of km on many sets.

Reid Harding

Caledon, ON, CA

[Scott D]

I use super light QBP tubes by Kenda on my squirrels.  Then , with the removable valves, I add about  50 grams of Slime sealant.  With the added sealant it's about the same weight as a regular tube--sans flats.   Scott Davis, Minneapolis MN GB seller.

[Chris Cullum]

Issues after 500km? Wow, the Compass Baby Shoe Pass Extralights that I swapped over to my commuter now have approximately 11,000km and I've had only one flat. They are now pretty close to done but I'm really happy with their performance and longevity.

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[Eli Torgeson]

I too have ridden the Ecureuils, and also lent them out to a fellow iBob here in Albuquerque. One of the first pair had was an issue with the casing and it was lopsided on all rims upon which I mounted. I figured at that time that the extreme lightweight made any margin of error a potential issue.

Gran Bois swapped the tire out for me, so no problem there.

I ran them with tubes and then, one of them, tubeless. The opinion from my fellow iBob was that they were nice and light, but not significantly better riding than the Hetres Extralight.

The sidewalls are downright sheer. They feel almost obscene in your hands. They are also downright ridiculously difficult to run tubeless. (Note, they are not tubeless tires, so no surprise there.) Still, I tried. After a week of adding sealant and shaking and filling I gave up. (I may not be a pro cyclist, but I consider myself a pro sealant adder / tubeless maker.)

Then, as the memory of how frustrating the experience was waned, I tried again. This time I painted the inside with about four coats of latex carpet glue. After a few more tries, I had a tubeless squirrel.

It has ridden fine, still discolors the sidewalls like a weepy tire, but holds air and has traveled off road on some rough ascents some.

Kudos for Gran Bois making this tire, but I probably will stick to Gravel Kings, Parimoto tubeless, Hetres, and Pumpkin/Juniper Ridge tires fEcureuilsor my tire fetish needs....although Confreries or some such has been stuck in my brain by this forum too.

Eli, in Albuquerque.

[Thomas Blak]

I bought a pair of Ecureuils when I was in Japan a few months ago but I have yet to install them. Thanks for the heads up on the Maxxis tubes; I am going to order these on the weekend. These tires and tubes on my carbon rims, White Industry hubs will make for a light wheelset. I am little worried about durability since all my riding is intercity. 

Right now I am using Babyshoe Pass EL and they seem fine so far. On my Rivendell I am using normal casing Hetre tires and those I really like.

It is nice to have so many choices in 650b tires but I do think you are right that the manufactures are missing out on that middle range at about 35mm. Hopefully they will come in time.

[Chris Cullum]

Hmm. I was toying with idea of using these at PBP. I was somewhat seduced by the light weight. I normally run BSP Ultralights on my MAP rando bike. They weigh around 380g. So theoretically I could shed about 280g of rotating weight. That's quite significant. I've had virtually no flats on BSP EL tires in roughly 15000km on 2 sets. The roads are pretty decent in France and 38mm is still pretty plush compared to most that ride it on 23mm tires. The Loup Loup Pass EL that I have on hand is 305g, so still a decent weight savings, not as much as the Ecureuil, but perhaps a safer choice. Or I could just stick with the BSP.

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[Eli Torgeson]

The Squirrels measure out to 2.75 ish mm tread. In comparison, my Version 1 Parimotos are just a little thicker at 3-3.3mm. (Sorry, my calipers are only so accurate.). Having said that, I've been running the Parimotos for 100s, likely a 1000 plus miles) without issues. I run them tubeless. The rear is looking worn.  I attached a pic showing Orange seal sealing through the tread.   I have been riding up moderately chunky dirt as part of the local "Around the Mountain" 70 mile 5000 ft of elevation gain loop. In comparison to the Squirrels, ride feelnis near identical, but, for whatever physical or psychological reason, the Parimotos feel more sure footed on both the 5-10% erosion rutted Forest road, as well as the twisty paved 45 plus mph descent. 

Eli

In Albuquerque

[Eli Torgeson]

I should add that I did not subtract the sidewall thickness from my measurements....
Eli

[satanas]

FWIW, my Écureuils started out at 35mm and ended up at 36.5mm, on PL23 rims (~i18?). The light weight and excellent ride quality were immediately noticeable. To be fair, GB state that none of their tyres are tubeless compatible, so one shouldnt expect too much there. It should, however, be possible to run sealant in tubes, and Patrick Moore on iBOB seems to think this works.

During PBP, flats always happen in the rain just before dawn, and when one is very tired. For that reason I'd be inclined to go with a more puncture resistant tyre (or use sealant), as one gets cold, frustrated, etc. Not having to stop, and then warm up again is worth at least as much as one might lose via a small difference in rolling resistance, IME. I hate flats!!!

Later,
Stephen