I've been setting up my Rawland Stag for the D2R2 180K ride that's coming up pretty soon. I pulled the fenders and rack, installed 48mm tires and switched from my original Ultegra 12-27 9 speed cassette to a 9 speed Deore 11-32. I had been using a Dura-Ace 9 speed RD7700 GS (medium cage) rear derailleur which has performed flawlessly with the 12-27. The 32 cog on the new cassette exceeds the max sprocket on my RD7700 by 5 teeth, but by reversing the B screw, I was able to get it to shift very well.I'm wondering if maybe it would be a more reliable setup (not that I noticed any issues) if I switched to an RD that was actually designed to run an 11-32 cassette. So I got a new Deore 9 speed long cage RD and installed it. It's about 90 grams heavier, doesn't shift as well as the Dura-Ace with B screw reversed (at least on the work stand), but it does keep the chain tension a bit more constant.Those of you who are more experienced with this stuff than I am--what do you think? Run the lovely Dura-Ace beyond it's capabilities, or go with the heavier, cruder Deore that's designed to handle this cassette? It's going to have to be reliable over 111 miles of rough gravel.
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On Aug 10, 2022, at 1:38 PM, Michael Mann <velo...@gmail.com> wrote:
You don’t mention your front chainring(s) setup. The only time I personally run a long cage derailleur is when I’ve got a BIG cassette (11-46 or more) or a triple front. Otherwise you’ll probably get better shifting with a medium cage and an 11-32. I run an Ultegra on 9-speed 11-32 to 11-36 with a double chainring and the shifting is flawless.
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The highest low gear one can currently get with non-pro-TT 12 speed road stuff is 40x30 for Shimano, 37x26 for SRAM, and 39x29 for Campag, rather different from the 42x18-21 that used to be the default ~40 years ago...
That is absolutely not so. SRAM X-Range gearing will let you
pair a 30/43 crank with a 10-36 cassette, that would be a low gear
of 30x36, not 37x26. That's a 22.5" low gear and a 116.1" top
gear.
https://www.sram.com/en/life/stories/x-range-gearing
And this isn't vaporware, either. A friend of mine just got a
Kelly Bedford Ti custom equipped with SRAM x-range. Not the 30/43
or the 10-36, but you can match any of the cranks with any of the
available cassettes. She did wait almost 9 months for it, but
it's definitely available now.
Gravel stuff hasn't (IMHO) got sufficiently far with low gear options yet, aiming more at racer types and big gear pushers, but maybe it'll get there one day. Terrain varies, as do loads carried; the available gears need to reflect this more than they do. :-(
One could always ride SS and/or walk, but that's not necessarily either efficient or fun.
Later,Stephen
On Fri, 12 Aug. 2022, 23:37 Brad, <riendeau...@gmail.com> wrote:
What road are you thinkng you can't get up with 27?
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Note that I said the *highest* low gear, not the lowest low gear; they are not the same thing! And getting the 43x30 rings requires either using the SRAM Wide cranks and matching FD (150mm Q factor versus 145mm), or else buying the rings and smaller spider as spares and swapping them out, not so easy given the current supply chain, and not cheap either. Gearoop in Taiwan theoretically make 44x28 one piece rings to fit AXS cranks, FWIW:
Yes, I thought that was a typo, since it seemed that the
discussion was about the lowest low gears available in 12 speed.
Maybe I missed the entire point of the discussion. It's certainly
possible.
As for availability, I did say:
And this isn't vaporware, either. A friend of mine just got a Kelly Bedford Ti custom equipped with SRAM x-range. Not the 30/43 or the 10-36, but you can match any of the cranks with any of the available cassettes. She did wait almost 9 months for it, but it's definitely available now.
Sure, it takes special SRAM stuff. But then, so too do the
cassettes. Those 10-whatever cassettes don't fit on standard
Shimano style freehubs. It's just one more thing to pick between
now when you're buying wheels.
My point was that wider gear ranges have appeared over time, even for road racing. Back in the 1930s one had two gears, swappable by reversing the rear wheel, then came derailleurs, at first with 3 and 4 speed freewheels, then 5, 6 and 7, cassettes, etc. Front rings have changed from 52x49 or similar in the early days to 52x42, then 53x39, etc, and at the rear from 13-18, 13-21 or maybe 13-24 for mountain stages circa 1980 to current gearing. There's a lot more sitting and spinning versus standing and grinding in races nowadays, and it's possible to get "racing" gearing that doesn't necessarily require non-pros to obey Rule #5...
Back in the day, 42x21, 24 or 26 was considered a low gear. At
one time in a rec.bicycles.tech discussion, noted bicycle guru
Jobst Brandt even went so far as to say anyone who couldn't do the
Alps with a 42x26 low gear should find another sport.
I offered that next time he was in my neighborhood, he should
stop by and let me slam him across the knee with a crow bar, and
then let's talk about what an appropriate low gear is, being a
little touchy on the subject since my knee had been destroyed in a
soccer accident in 1962, and I lived with that bad knee for 50
years until it was replaced.
Even with 8 speed Dura-Ace, at first the only cassettes were 12-21 & 13-23, with 12-23, 12-25 & 13-26 coming later,
If you are suggesting low gears were not available in the 1970s,
that's just not so. My 1972 Paramount came with a Regina Oro
freewheel with a 31T large sprocket, and after the shop destroyed
it trying to take it off for its first service, I replaced it with
a Sun Tour freewheen that had a 32T large sprocket. If memory
serves, I recall a Shimano freewheel from the 70s that had a 34T
large sprocket, with every other tooth missing. Racers might not
have used them because the Nuovo Record rear derailleur couldn't
handle them, but they were definitely around.
and the default rings were 53x42, with 39T the smallest from Shimano (or 38T from TA et al). With 12 speed Dura-Ace, the two cassettes currently available are 11-30 & 11-34, which would have been seen as suitable only for touring or MTBs until quite recently;
Yes, it's curious, sometime in the first few years of 11 speed
there must have been a secret meeting where it was voted that the
standard 11 speed cassette would be an 11-32, and that standard
road derailleurs would all have the range to handle an 11-34.
Only a year before, I recall helping a friend who couldn't handle
the 27 or 28T standard large sprocket get lower gears by using a
MTB cassette and a TanPan device (that never worked right, was
recalled and still didn't work right).
one can get rings down to 34T too (or 33T from TA). In fact 50x34 + 11-34 is the only option for 12 speed 105 at present. Gear ranges on road bikes have expanded massively, in both directions, gravel bikes not so much. (Not that I care about high gears off-road, particularly with luggage.)
Gravel bikes not so much? Well, let's see. SRAM XPLR cassette
is 10-44. With a 40T chain ring that gives you a range of 26.3" -
115.8. Sounds like a pretty wide range to me. SRAM says the
cassette has a 440% range, and some might call that "massive."
Then, there are Shimano 10-45 and 10-51 cassettes: range even more
massive than the XPLR. But staying with XPLR, with a 35T ring you
get a range of 23" - 101.3". That's better than a lot of touring
triples.
On Sat, 13 Aug. 2022, 04:04 Steve Palincsar, <pali...@his.com> wrote:
On 8/12/22 9:52 AM, Stephen Poole wrote:
The highest low gear one can currently get with non-pro-TT 12 speed road stuff is 40x30 for Shimano, 37x26 for SRAM, and 39x29 for Campag, rather different from the 42x18-21 that used to be the default ~40 years ago...
That is absolutely not so. SRAM X-Range gearing will let you pair a 30/43 crank with a 10-36 cassette, that would be a low gear of 30x36, not 37x26. That's a 22.5" low gear and a 116.1" top gear.
Because we are used to it and understand it.
There's no advantage to metric development -- same difference,
only unfamiliar units of measurement -- and as for gain ratios,
I'm not sure anybody either uses them or understands them,
regardless of Sheldon's efforts to promote that measurement.
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Cables don't really stretch anymore. Housings
collapse a bit, and not so tight connections slip, however.
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Yes precisely. And since the cure depends on
understanding where the craftsmanship needs to be applied, this
is why a bit of pedantry regarding "cables stretch" is
warranted. Thanks for spelling it out with such actionable
detail, much more useful than my casual reference to housings vs
cables.
Outer cable ends which are not dressed smooth and square, and well-supported with ferrules that fit, can collapse and start moving laterally as the brake lever is pulled. It feels like stretching, and can be repaired with good craftsmanship. File this under your "housings collapse a bit."
Ken Freeman, Ann Arbor, MI USA
On Sun, Aug 21, 2022 at 6:29 PM Steve Palincsar <pali...@his.com> wrote:
Cables don't really stretch anymore. Housings collapse a bit, and not so tight connections slip, however.
On 8/21/22 4:37 PM, Joseph Bernard wrote:
This is good to hear (except for cable stretch). I used to be an 'expensive derailleur' snob (I had a Dura-Ace triple), now I have much respect for basic ok-looking parts that work. It worked!
On Sun, Aug 21, 2022, 1:33 PM Evan Estern <evane...@gmail.com> wrote:
Joe, the Deore worked out pretty well. The only real issue I had with it was the new shifter cable stretching.
-- Steve Palincsar Alexandria, Virginia USA