Jones Koolaid

[Doug H.]

I’ve been looking at the new Jones SWB complete and the koolaid is tasty. Could it be that this bike is good for all surfaces and the wide tires at low pressure negate the need for a suspension fork? What say you?
Doug

[rcnute]

I don't think plus rigid bikes ride anything like hardtails or full suspension bikes but they sure are fun regardless!

Ryan

[eric moss]

Jones' whole 'thing' is to put you in an upright position where far less body weight is forward and supported by hands (unless you purposefully do so on a smooth road using their Gnarwal extension).  Whatever the fork, that alone reduces the sting and wreck-inducing shift forward from rock hits.

  He also goes "full Heine" on big supple tires to provide high frequency suspension (think rough pavement, not big jumps).

That will never be the same as what a suspension fork provides (progressively damped landings on big jumps), but there are other things the big tire Jones package as a whole provides -- excellent climbing, low maintenance and precise steering (150mm hubs!), excellent slide-out control, long ride comfort, good bikepacking, excellent stability on sand and snow and grass and stream crossings.

I'd compare the riding Jones shows on his videos to what you like to do.  If they look about the same,

then his idea will work great for you -- builders show their wares doing what they do best.

They'll never replace specialized racing rigs on courses designed for such rigs, just as a Rene Herse won't replace a Specialized Venge.  However, they are great bikes for everything short of that, including getting to "the ride".

I'd be tempted to have two wheelsets -- one big for trips into the unknown (check out 'foresty forest' Youtube videos trekking through the desert Southwest), and one that ran the bigger Compass tires for bad streets and Rails-to-Trails paths.

On Mon, Aug 6, 2018 at 9:33 PM, Doug H. <dhansf...@gmail.com> wrote:

I’ve been looking at the new Jones SWB complete and the koolaid is tasty. Could it be that this bike is good for all surfaces and the wide tires at low pressure negate the need for a suspension fork? What say you?

Doug

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "650b" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to 650b+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to 65...@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/650b.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

[Doug H.]

I like the simplicity of the build and it would be a one bike option for me as I just ride and don’t do single track or road group rides. I wish it was 1x11 instead of 1x10 but that probably isn’t a deal breaker for me.
Doug

[John P]

I'll tell you what I say. If you ride by yourself and/or if you don't
care about speed then I think it could be good for all surfaces.
Perhaps a definition of negate is needed, but after riding rigid any
tire around 25 to 30 psi for a couple hours on technical terrain my
hands would be sore. With a 29 x 3" front tire around 15 psi rigid is
the first time my hands weren't sore after a couple hours of techy
riding. Again, if I don't care about speed over said techy terrain, a
3" tire potentially does negate the need for a suspension fork for me.
I don't generally leave the ground by much height.
-John

On Tue, Aug 7, 2018 at 10:06 AM Doug H. <dhansf...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> I’ve been looking at the new Jones SWB complete and the koolaid is tasty. Could it be that this bike is good for all surfaces and the wide tires at low pressure negate the need for a suspension fork? What say you?
> Doug
>

> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "650b" group.

> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to 650b+uns...@googlegroups.com.

[Eric Daume]

That's a good take on rigid vs. suspension. I mostly ride rigid, mostly ride solo, but when I ride with my younger/faster riding buddies, my rigid bike is holding me back. On those rides, I appreciate my Trek FS bike.

Eric

On Tue, Aug 7, 2018 at 9:06 PM, John P <jpre...@gmail.com> wrote:

I'll tell you what I say.  If you ride by yourself and/or if you don't
care about speed then I think it could be good for all surfaces.
Perhaps a definition of negate is needed, but after riding rigid any
tire around 25 to 30 psi for a couple hours on technical terrain my
hands would be sore.  With a 29 x 3" front tire around 15 psi rigid is
the first time my hands weren't sore after a couple hours of techy
riding.  Again, if I don't care about speed over said techy terrain, a
3" tire potentially does negate the need for a suspension fork for me.
I don't generally leave the ground by much height.
  -John



On Tue, Aug 7, 2018 at 10:06 AM Doug H. <dhansf...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> I’ve been looking at the new Jones SWB complete and the koolaid is tasty. Could it be that this bike is good for all surfaces and the wide tires at low pressure negate the need for a suspension fork? What say you?
> Doug

>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "650b" group.

> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to 650b+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.

> To post to this group, send email to 65...@googlegroups.com.
> Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/650b.
> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "650b" group.

To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to 650b+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.

[Mark in Beacon]

I've only had mine for a few hours, but--fun so far! I intend to do as much as possible with this bike, and just from a short ride I believe it may be an excellent commuter once I figure out where to put the basket, mirror, and bell, and where to find fenders for it. The rest is not much review, but more what I hope for from the bike.

 I've never been a huge mountain biker, but doing a few fat bike rides with a friend this fall and winter on ride-to trails made me want a bike for that. I don't like the feel or the high tech of suspension bikes, and the 4" Jamis bikes were a little too fat. I did like the idea of not just upright, but changing the geometry so that upright works really well for control, comfort, and efficiency. So I'm giving it a try.

The bike is attractive to my eye, with nice welds, nice fork, good satin black paint. As much as I like my vintage rides that take wider tires, the Jones feels like maybe a game changer. One hurdle I could never really seem to tackle was doing longer rides with upright bars--partly mental, partly--well, it just wouldn't feel like a ride kind of ride without drops. Even just a short test jaunt on the SWB makes me think I would give this a go on longer road or mixed surface rides. Being a tire snob, I am a tiny bit bummed that the Chronicles are the low tpi version, but what the hay. I do think the 650b/27.5 size makes a lot of sense for this bike and for me. Suddenly my RTPs look both skinny and small! Funny!

Talking to Jeff, he did not see much point in the 2-wheelset route, claiming that the big 3" tires are just as fast, so why give up all the benefits. As someone who has gone from 25 to 32 to 35 to 38 to 42 to 54 with no real lack of speed to speak of, I'm still not convinced that at some point, you don't get slower. But at what point? JH has gone increasingly plump, to where nothing under 38 makes sense. We'll see. Either way, I don't plan on a second wheelset--at most, I might try a tire well-regarded for being good on the pavement--Schwalbe G-One Allroad is one I hear good things about. 

I'm looking forward to riding this bike a lot. I was planning to commute tomorrow, but I set it up tubeless and the rear seems to be not holding. We'll see what it looks like in the morning. Oh, I got the sks airchecker with it (which is either great or sucks, depending on the review), I'm going to try to pay attention and dial it in. I'm looking for a good pump, too. 

[John P]

Think of low tpi as more puncture resistant and be happy.
-John

> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "650b" group.

> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to 650b+uns...@googlegroups.com.

[Tony DeFilippo]

The Kool aid goes down easy for me... I've had my Jones Plus 24 for a year or so now and heartily endorse the new complete SWB. While so many of us on these lists are capable of and enjoy building up bikes from bare frames the legacy Jones bike frame-only never really presented a good target because the compliment spec is so different than most other legacy bikes. And Jeff had very effectively sold his idea of a fully integrated bike - handlebars - frame - fork - wide wheels/wide tires. So offering a good price on a bike fully speced out looks awesome.

I can't wait to see one decked out with a front basket/bag and fenders. I'm somewhat tempted to pick up the unicrown fork for my Jones to be able to run a dyno and basket.

Tony

[Igor Belopolsky]

Would be cool if Jeff offered up a similar complete but with a Truss fork..I suppose one could buy one for $600..

[Tom Selsley]

I've had a Jones 29 Diamond/Unicrown for a few years. As others have mentioned, riding alone or in very casual groups, it's always a blast to ride, and has been really adaptable to many purposes.

Mine is built to the "One Size / Medium" dimensions. The sizing is to big for me, but I enjoy it on less technical terrain. If it fit me better, I would not hesitate to tackle technical terrain, albeit not trying to chase a fast/rowdy group on said terrain. 

As much as I love my Jones 29, I am strongly considering selling/trading it to get a Jones in a size small. The SWB complete has features I want (size small, fender mounts on the bridges, water bottle mounts on the fork). The Jones Spaceframe is now available in a size small, too. 

Tom Selsley

Arlington, VA

On Wed, Aug 8, 2018 at 7:34 AM Igor Belopolsky <belopol...@gmail.com> wrote:

Would be cool if Jeff offered up a similar complete but with a Truss fork..I suppose one could buy one for $600..

--

[Michael Cinibulk]

For those of you with the new complete SWB, how do feel about the components? Namely, wheel set, cable brakes, and 10 spd Deore. How much is saved by going with the complete vs getting a frame/fork/wheelset and building up on your own?

Mike C.

[eric moss]

There is a sale on now (http://www.jonesbikes.com/jones-plus-lwb-135-frame-and-fork-set/), which will change the equation for the first people to take advantage.

BTW, I may have missed it being discussed, but has anyone compared a SWB and LWB?  Jones says in his videos that he prefers the SWB for agility but the LWB for getting around.  I'm wondering how significant the difference is.

On Sat, Aug 11, 2018 at 12:54 PM, Michael Cinibulk <mkcin...@gmail.com> wrote:

For those of you with the new complete SWB, how do feel about the components? Namely, wheel set,  cable brakes, and 10 spd Deore. How much is saved by going with the complete vs getting a frame/fork/wheelset and building up on your own?

Mike C.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "650b" group.

To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to 650b+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.

[Justin, Oakland]

That has been for sale for a long while.Its an odd mix of axle standards.

-J

[Eric Daume]

Keep in mind that the frame in the complete is not the same as the frameset you can buy. The complete doesn't have an EBB (the fixed bottom bracket drop is designed to the center of the EBB), and it doesn't use heat treated tubing. This will make it slightly heavier and stiffer. I think the fork may be different as well, but I don't know how.

I used to own a Plus (pre-LWB), but I didn't like the heavy inertia feel of the big wheel. I talked to Jeff last night about the SWB, but he spent most of the conversation extolling the LWB. I'm thinking about trying the LWB again, maybe with a lightweight (carbon?) front wheel, but I'm not ready yet.

Eric

Plain City, OH

On Sat, Aug 11, 2018 at 1:54 PM, Michael Cinibulk <mkcin...@gmail.com> wrote:

For those of you with the new complete SWB, how do feel about the components? Namely, wheel set,  cable brakes, and 10 spd Deore. How much is saved by going with the complete vs getting a frame/fork/wheelset and building up on your own?

Mike C.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "650b" group.

To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to 650b+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.

[eric moss]

Thanks for the input -- after watching the videos for the 13th time, I get the feeling that I'd want the SWB for fun rides on trails or hopping curbs in the city, and the LWB for putting on the miles and bikepacking.

As to the carbon rims, every review I see says they are amazingly good -- strong, straight, support the tire well, and light.  Of course, they are expensive, but amortized over an infinite life modulo bad wrecks, they seem worth it.

[Ezechar]

I have supped from the kool-aid, and it is good.

Got my SWB complete a couple weeks ago, unfortunately haven't had a lot of time for trail riding but boy is it a hoot. It's super stable on and off road, and makes the really crummy Michigan roads and paths seem smooth. It's like an eager puppy just begging to be let loose.

Yesterday I was cruising downhill on a fast stretch of bike lane and was happy to see a giant piece of lumber laying across the lane. I sped up, hit it hard at about 25 mph, and enjoyed some airtime.

It's a very fun ride.

[Joe Bernard]

Erich, is there any weird oddness to the steering? I have a line on a Jones LWB 29, but my foray into the world of low trail proved I'm not really into it. I don't understand Jones' trail numbers so I'm just asking for impressions of his bikes.

Joe Bernard

[Eric Daume]

Different Eric here, but I used to own a Jones Plus as well as some low trail bikes. I would say no low trail oddness to the Jones’s handling, it arcs through corners confidently. The one odd trait I did pick up with my Jones was when I used a “narrow” 2.3” Schwalbe Big One slick: there, the steering felt very “digital” when I leaned the bike over. I think the tire was too squared off by the wide rim, and was kind of rolling him on and off the square edge. That’s my best explanation. When I put back on 3”’tires, the steering went back to smoothly analog. 

Eric

On Monday, August 27, 2018, Joe Bernard <joer...@gmail.com> wrote:

Erich, is there any weird oddness to the steering? I have a line on a Jones LWB 29, but my foray into the world of low trail proved I'm not really into it. I don't understand Jones' trail numbers so I'm just asking for impressions of his bikes.

Joe Bernard

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "650b" group.

To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to 650b+uns...@googlegroups.com.

[Mark in Beacon]

I got mine a few weeks ago as well. I've been commuting to work on it and, yeah, a blast to ride this thing. I have no idea if it is low trail or high trail or happy trails or what, I really could care less. With the big rubber, you can just lean lean lean into anything, and roll, roll, roll, over the rest. I set mine up tubeless right out of the box.  I was tempted to do D2R2 with it, but our relationship was still new, so I took my warhorse, a 700c to 26" conversion with Schwalbe Thunder Burts--positively dainty!

 

A couple things I need to sort out, and the stock tires are certainly fine but I hope there are better--I know Jeff said he spec'd the cheaper, lower TPI version of the Maxxis Chronicles, so I'd like to try the other version, as well as some Schwalbe G-One Allroads in 2.8.

In humid or sweaty conditions, I'm not loving the grips, so I may experiment with those. Also the high end gear is not very high at all, and on the road it is missed. Any kind of sustained downhill you spin out pretty quick. I like to be able to pedal under 120rpm sometimes, just to keep pace with traffic. 

Going up Mt. Beacon it performed well, though hard to compare with my usual drop bar ascents, because I think the conditions are bad right now due to lots of heavy rains. Coming down, I was hoping the big tires, upright position, wide grips and disc brakes would make for a bit more relaxing descent, but not really. Again, hard to judge since the surface was challenging, but I thought the Rivendell Clementine with Bosco bars and V-brakes actually outperformed the Jones here. I do need to play with air pressure, so that is another factor.

Looking for fenders and a bit of luggage for my commute--thinking the easiest would be to get a small or medium Riv Saddlesack, as they seem to do well without racks. The bike is not light, but that is not the point of this vehicle. It really is safer and more comfortable than most bikes, and I think it's the kind of bike that non-bike people would really enjoy. And a total kick for bike junkies, too. I did a 40-mile road ride this weekend on it, and really did not feel at much disadvantage. If there is a high quality 2.8-3" tire out there, this bike would not be giving up much, and you get so much back. It's not magic, it's just a bike, two wheels, pedal and chain, but it's a good one. Looking forward to many miles of all varieties on this. Might have to break down and get a dropper post for the Mt. Beacon descent, though. And another gear or two on the high end.

[Joseph Bernard]

I had those grips on my Looped Clem L, they're kinda terrible. If I get the Jones I'm probably going to use Ergons plus bar tape to stretch out the length a bit. I wish Ergon made long grips. 

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to a topic in the Google Groups "650b" group.
To unsubscribe from this topic, visit https://groups.google.com/d/topic/650b/RUqFrvgCpok/unsubscribe.
To unsubscribe from this group and all its topics, send an email to 650b+uns...@googlegroups.com.

[Ben Van Dyke]

On Tuesday, August 28, 2018 at 4:58:42 AM UTC+2, Mark in Beacon wrote:

If there is a high quality 2.8-3" tire out there, this bike would not be giving up much, and you get so much back. 

 

Mark, I would take a look at the WTB Ranger. I have the variant in 26x2.8" and find it performs great on all types of surfaces. As many others have said, pressure is key on the plus tires. Get an accurate gauge and experiment to find what works for you. 

Ben

 

[Mark in Beacon]

Thanks Ben. Yes, I ordered the SKS pressure checker with the Jones. I don't dislike the lower tpi Chronicles, but I'm hoping that there is a tire that offers a little better rolling feel on pavement since I plan to use this as my commuter most days. The stock tires are not dogs, but if there was something in the 650B 3" range that rolled more like a Thunder Burt or a RTP, that would be great. I'll look into the WTB, I see they get spec'd on lots of the 700c gravel bikes. 

[Dan Vee]

I believe they make the Schwalbe g-one speed in 2.8 if you’ll be mostly on the paved

[satanas]

^ Unfortunately that's not the case. The widest Speed is 60mm; there's a 70mm Allround but they're very different. The Speed is more of a grooved slick, while the Allround has small round knobs, but the tread patterns appear very similar in low-res photos. Thunder Burts have smaller centre knobs and bigger side knobs than the 70mm Allround.

Later,
Stephen

[Erich Z]

There are lot of tire options now but honestly I'm sticking with the stock WTB low TPI tires for now. They're not fantastic on the road but they grip very well on the trail and that's what I care most about right now.

When I talked to Jeff about going tubeless he stressed the stock tires are not designed to be tubeless compatible and he would recommend going with something that is for safety's sake.

[Mark in Beacon]

Hmm. I have Maxxis Chronicles as the stock tire and it is supposed to be tube less ready. Seems to be fine. Yours came with WTB?

[Erich Z]

I misspoke. Mine does have the 60 tpi Maxxis Chronicle listed on the website.

There are tubeless compatible Chronicles but Jeff said specifically these are not. I believe there is a 120 tpi version that is rated for tubeless.

[Igor Belopolsky]

No horse in the race:

"Maxxis does not recommend using the 60 tpi version for tubeless set ups and would void any warranty."

from https://brokenspokebikes.com/blogs/news/17845760-review-maxxis-chronicle-29-tire

[Igor Belopolsky]

[Mark in Beacon]

I did not get that memo. Mine seem fine, but maybe the liquid sealant reacts with the tire over time? Though lots of guys ran non-tubeless tires on non-tubeless rims for a long time. Maybe the coarser weave potentially lets sealant leak through more easily? They haven't lost much air since the first night a couple weeks ago, when I had to pump the rear a bit.

 I've only ever had to warranty one tire, and that was before mounting it. I would guess compared to back in the day, it's a pretty sound setup, but I'll ask why the no no for the low tpi tire. I know every penny counts, but that is one place that it might have paid off to make the bike, what, $10 more?The retail when they first came out was $75 vs. $100.

I just figured the rim is billed as tubeless ready, and nothing on the Jones spec sheet indicates the tire is NOT tubeless ready:

Rim Tape   Tubeless compatible rim tape Spokes   14 gauge stainless steel, black Spoke Nipples   Chromed brass nipples Rim   Shining DB-X50 50mm wide double wall anodized black 6061-T6 Aluminum. This is a very high-quality rim that shares features with many name brand ones. Bead lock bump keeps the tire on the rim even at low pressures. Tires Maxxis Chronicle 27.5 x 3", 60 TPI.  All around good tire with a great balance of low rolling resistance and traction, making it a great choice for the widest range of conditions. Apparently I'm not the only tubeless dummy: The Jones is tubeless-ready, but of course it comes with tubes installed.  ....The wheel/tire combo is snug.  Really snug.  Of course you want this when you're setting up tubeless, but when you're using tubes in the woods what it means is a protracted struggle that involves sweating profusely as mosquitos swarm all around your person and you push your wimpy thumbs to the breaking point.... Needless to say I set the Jones up tubeless the first chance I got over the weekend, and ironically the very snugness that made my trailside repair attempt so frustrating meant that I was able to get the tire seated with an ordinary floor pump.  Somebody better tell Bike Snob he filled out his Maxxis warranty card for nothing.

[Erich Z]

I'm sure you'll be fine Mark. I'm just a wimp who has never run tubeless and isn't about to try anything that may not be Kosher his first time out. 

[Steven Frederick]

I'm not as sure-some set ups work fine but some do not.  I had a non-tubeless WTB tire blow off my front (stans) rim when mountain biking and an unpleasant experience it was all around.  Googling later showed me that Stans specifically lists non-tubeless WTB tires as incompatible.  Wish I'd known that before I ate dirt and covered myself in stans juice...B-)

Steve "only tubeless ready tires for me ever since."

On Wed, Aug 29, 2018 at 7:20 AM, Erich Z <eze...@gmail.com> wrote:

I'm sure you'll be fine Mark. I'm just a wimp who has never run tubeless and isn't about to try anything that may not be Kosher his first time out. 

--

[Rick Shelton, Woodstock GA]

Back before being tubeless compatible, I had two Maxxis Ikons’ tread separate and develop blisters underneath the tread. That’s probably the worse that will happen and it took a several months to occur.

[Chris L]

Mark, what size is your Jones Complete?  

I have the clear (softer) version of those grips on my old Trek and I really like them but they are SLICK when they get wet.  The upside to that is that with a little rubbing alcohol or water, they slide right on and off the handlebar.  I don't ride in wet weather so they work great for me.  I only discovered their slickness when I rode thru a sprinkler.  

[Kevin M]

I really like the ESI extra chunky grips, although they are a huge pain to get on and off. I haven’t noticed them being slippery, but I’m almost always riding with gloves. I installed sets on my other bikes since I liked them so much on the Jones bars.

[Erich Z]

Those ESI look good. I'm not a huge fan of the stock grips but not sure what to do about the longer grip area on these bars. Lop off 3 inches? Add bar tape?

[Steven Frederick]

Double grips?

On Wed, Aug 29, 2018 at 2:55 PM, Erich Z <eze...@gmail.com> wrote:

Those ESI look good. I'm not a huge fan of the stock grips but not sure what to do about the longer grip area on these bars. Lop off 3 inches? Add bar tape?

[Joseph Bernard]

Add tape is my plan if I use Loop Bars again. I gotta have my small Ergons. 

On Wed, Aug 29, 2018, 11:55 AM Erich Z <eze...@gmail.com> wrote:

Those ESI look good. I'm not a huge fan of the stock grips but not sure what to do about the longer grip area on these bars. Lop off 3 inches? Add bar tape?

--

You received this message because you are subscribed to a topic in the Google Groups "650b" group.
To unsubscribe from this topic, visit https://groups.google.com/d/topic/650b/RUqFrvgCpok/unsubscribe.
To unsubscribe from this group and all its topics, send an email to 650b+uns...@googlegroups.com.

[Kevin M]

I’ve used these grip rings to fill in space on my albatross bars between my grips and brake levers. You can buy them individually from Spurcycle. https://www.missionbicycle.com/store/bike/parts/grip-rings

[Joseph Bernard]

Hey, there's a thought!

On Wed, Aug 29, 2018, 12:03 PM Kevin M <kpmu...@gmail.com> wrote:

I’ve used these grip rings to fill in space on my albatross bars between my grips and brake levers. You can buy them individually from Spurcycle. https://www.missionbicycle.com/store/bike/parts/grip-rings

[Mark in Beacon]

At 5' 10" these days, I got a medium. 

I will say, if I had known the stock tires are not tubeless compatible, I doubt I would have mounted them tubeless. I was 100 percent certain Jones just delivered the Complete with tubes because, how could they expect the bikes to ship from China with tires pumped up tubeless. There is nothing obvious on the site or in the sales material that would lead you to believe otherwise. You'd have to look up the tire separately and hunt around to find that info. And I spoke to Jeff at some length, including about tires, though not about a tubeless setup directly. Slightly perturbing I guess. Oh well, we will see how it goes. Or if I get a deal on the higher tpi tire or something similar, I'll install those, and wash these off and save them for the Apocalypse. 

[Eric Daume]

I recently ordered some cruiser foam grips for my Jones bars. For $8, I can get 2 sets of 8" long grips:

https://www.amazon.com/XLC-grips-Grips-GR-G10-400mm/dp/B002UIX8PO

Eric

You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "650b" group.

To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to 650b+uns...@googlegroups.com.

[Joe Bernard]

Does anybody see a geometry chart on the site for the Jones complete? It's listed as coming in Small, Medium and Large, but I can't find any numbers for that.

[Eric Daume]

Jones is much too cool to post things like geometry charts.

On Wed, Sep 5, 2018 at 7:42 PM Joe Bernard <joer...@gmail.com> wrote:

Does anybody see a geometry chart on the site for the Jones complete? It's listed as coming in Small, Medium and Large, but I can't find any numbers for that.

[Bob Lovejoy]

I agree the Jones' sizing info seems pretty vague but I did find this on one of the pages.  It does not speak directly to the completes but I would think it is on or close. That said, faith or finding one to ride and compare would seem a good thing, that and tracking down reviews with rider height/frame size observations.

• Rider height between 5' and 5'8" would fit the Small (23") Jones Spaceframe Plus LWB 148 or the Small Jones Titanium Spaceframe LWB 148 well. 

• Rider height between 5'2" and 6'2" would fit the Medium (24") Jones Titanium Spaceframe LWB 148 well.

• Rider height between 5'7" and 6'2" would fit the Medium (24") Jones Diamond Plus LWB 148 well.  Standover is approximately 31.5".

• Rider height between 6' and 6'6" would fit the Large (25") Jones Titanium Spaceframe LWB 148 or Diamond Plus LWB 148 well. Standover is approximately 33".

The source page for that is:  http://www.jonesbikes.com/jones-steel-plus-lwb-diamond-frame-with-steel-truss-fork/

Bob

[Mark in Beacon]

I'm sure you are looking for stack, reach, tt length, angles, etc. but this is at the very bottom of the page for the complete (which you may also have seen):

Sizing information:

• Small- Rider height 5' - 5'8", Standover at center of top tube is 29".

• Medium- Rider height  5'7" - 6'2", Standover at center of top tube is 30.5".

• Large- Rider height 6' - 6'6",  Standover at center of top tube is 32".

He has pretty specific ideas on how his bikes should be set up. If you have questions about the fit, he will talk to you about it personally. He might not answer your question directly, though. I imagine the small would fit you fine. With the long handlebars, it doesn't need as much tweaking in terms of stem length. I just adjusted the seat post height and off I went. Super fun bike.

[Dave Grossman]

While Jeff doesn't post charts and other info he will talk to you directly if you call.  He has a lot to say and if you have some guided questions you can learn a lot.  

I have a 29er Spaceframe and it is the most comfortable bike I've ever owned.  I built it based on recommendations from Jeff and it hasn't disappointed.  If anyone has any specific questions about it PM me.

[Joseph Bernard]

Or I could just look at a chart with numbers if it existed. I'm not a phone guy. 

On Fri, Sep 7, 2018, 12:20 PM Dave Grossman <gma...@gmail.com> wrote:

While Jeff doesn't post charts and other info he will talk to you directly if you call.  He has a lot to say and if you have some guided questions you can learn a lot.  

I have a 29er Spaceframe and it is the most comfortable bike I've ever owned.  I built it based on recommendations from Jeff and it hasn't disappointed.  If anyone has any specific questions about it PM me.

--

[Matthew J]

> Or I could just look at a chart with numbers if it existed. I'm not a phone guy. 

As long as you are fine with perhaps going with another make no problem with that. 

[eric moss]

I am on the side of having the published numbers.  IMO people open-minded enough to consider space frames and trussed forks aren't going to be scared off by numbers that merely quantify what they can see by watching the videos of Jones riding one.  It's Jones' calculation to make, but it's kinda sad to see a potentially happy customer get pushed away.

On Mon, Sep 10, 2018 at 8:29 AM Matthew J <matth...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Or I could just look at a chart with numbers if it existed. I'm not a phone guy. 

As long as you are fine with perhaps going with another make no problem with that. 

--

You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "650b" group.

To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to 650b+uns...@googlegroups.com.

[Joseph Bernard]

Which is what happened. I've had a line on two used Jones bikes, plus was considering the new complete. I had some reservations about how often I would really ride trails, but the deal-killer on all of them was sizing. I'm not going to buy a bike online based on "trust me, it'll fit", and I'm not good with an extensive phone convo because I'll end up agreeing and buying so I don't hurt someone's feelings. So forget it, I'm out. 

You received this message because you are subscribed to a topic in the Google Groups "650b" group.
To unsubscribe from this topic, visit https://groups.google.com/d/topic/650b/RUqFrvgCpok/unsubscribe.
To unsubscribe from this group and all its topics, send an email to 650b+uns...@googlegroups.com.

[eric moss]

That's unfortunate, but I agree that the customer has to look out for him/herself -- not that there's any nefarious intent by anyone, but I never buy a bike without having tried one first or knowing that its geometry is the same as a bike I like, or is enough different to address a geometry issue with one I already have.

Personally, when I save up the $, I'm hoping to fly out to Medford (just a few miles from Jones' shop) and try one.  Maybe he'll rent one for a day.  It's beautiful country to ride in, and only about 90 miles from Etna CA where Steve Potts is.  It would be a nice vacation even if I rode one for 5 minutes, thought 'no', and took the Greyhound up to Portland to visit all the builders and coffee shops up there.

[satanas]

Back in the 1990s there used to be a company in Melbourne which made Ti frames. They were expensive, and they wouldn't give out geometry details, inside saying it was "the best." Yeah, right...

I also hate statements like Rawland's "no TCO" backed by zero evidence. It's much better, IMHO, if people list the front centre, or else the wheelbase, chainstay length and BB drop so it can be calculated with trig.

Just about everyone seems to like Jones bikes, so the risk is perhaps pretty low, and they sent a very helpful response to a query I had about attaching bags to Loop bars. I'd probably be prepared to give them the benefit of the doubt given the different setup. Others not so much.

Later,
Stephen (who likes To see CAD drawings)

[mitch....@gmail.com]

I’d rather have the specs and geometry numbers available online too, and would have a hard time buying a frame without knowing that stuff first.

But I have assumed since Jones bikes have an unusual fit strategy, not publishing geometry details was a) a way of protecting a trade property.

Also b) that the splayed angle of the seat tube (part of the reason a Jones frame size can fit a wider range of rider height) means that there is not really one Effective top tube size. You could measure a static level Effective tt dimension based on the top tube / head tube junction, but on a Jones, the Ett varies a lot by saddle height. Contrast to a more conventional bike with fairly parallel seat and head angles that will have about the same Ett whatever however high you put the saddle. For many of us Effective top tube length is the first and most important sizing info.

Of course multiple Eff lengths could be published (for several representative saddle heights) for each size. But that gets us back to a) trade protection.

We could crowd-source a geo chart from existing built bikes represented here.

The Jones site has so much other information and detail. Add to that his reputation for providing a lot of info during conversation and it looks like an attempt to offer as much info as possible while not making it easy to copy his design.

Mitch
in Utah

[Joseph Bernard]

And more power to him, I'm not implying Mr. Jones should change anything to sell me a bike. His method seems to depend greatly on phone conversations ala buying a custom, which some people treasure and will pay a lot of money for. It just doesn't work for me as a somewhat 'phone phobic' person because of the atypical way I'm wired. It's one of the reasons I don't own a custom bicycle even though it would be nice and I can afford it. I can't do all the talking involved with getting there. 

[eric moss]

So after 4 years of waiting, I finally decided to buy a LWB+ spaceframe.  Here is my experience with the ordering process, which may or may not match others' experience, but may be of interest.  It's long, so definitely skip it if you're not sure it would be of value.

I more or less knew what I wanted, but when I called, I asked for guidance as a noob, because I can read everything and watch everything and misjudge my needs anyway.

Jones is very helpful, but it's clear that he *really* wants people to have read and digested the website, followed the blog, checked out every customer build, and watched all the videos -- all with an eye toward picking out the frame and components before the call.  He alots up to an hour to talk if you are going for a complete custom build, but prefers to keep it short.

He does NOT upsell.  In fact, for several expensive possibilities, he encouraged using mid-line components or even mid/low-line on the basis that they were just as good in terms of performance, lasted longer because they didn't try to trim so much weight, and were easier to tune and repair in the field.  So while he encouraged a few expensive bits (the carbon rims because he tends to bash around and bend Al rims), he talked me out of probably $1k of blingy components.  He also prefers to keep it simple, e.g. one chainring and wide cassette, but doesn't impose his choices.  He only says why he picks what he picks, and does not say, "Do this, then."  You have to make the choice explicitly.

He did not try to sell me on the most expensive frame, either.  He went over the differences in price, weight, flex, frame bag compatibility and finish, but said that there was nothing magic (his words) about the ride of the Ti or the space frame.  The diamond packs more, weighs less and flexes a bit less than the spaceframe.  He was clear in pointing out that the difference in weight was trivial compared to rider+pack weight.

After the 1 hour (that long because I needed talking through more choices), he said he'd get the purchase order made out, email it to me, and if I agreed, I'd put down the deposit, and pay the rest in about 4 weeks, which is what he thought it would take to get through the custom build queue.

One point to note about these builds.  If you get more than just the frameset or "rolling chassis" option, he requires you buy all parts but pedals and saddle.  The reason is that he won't let the bike go out without being totally built and ride-tested and tuned, and he won't put used parts on, even if you bought them from him.

Now to the topic about just trusting him on this stuff.  It's hard to do when it's expensive and very different from the frames I've ridden for 30 years.  He cleared it up really well, though.  I started to explain the bikes I have, and as soon as I said "wrists are sore", he was able to describe every single complaint I have about riding, and why.  And he got them all right.  He apologized for breaking in, but explained that he has had the exact same conversation with every person he has ever built for.  He has had a lot of people come visit the shop to try the bike (something I asked about).  He's happy to do it, but says it always ends up with them going "Aha!" in the first 5 minutes, and wishing they had save the plane fare.  It might be hyperbole, but given how he never up-sold, I think he's being honest in saying my situation is no different that that of many people who bought his stuff.

The executive summary of my situation is that I have a road bike and a cyclocross bike that are both custom-fitted.  He explained that (and I knew this but had not put 2 and 2 together), my road bike is not just a road bike but a road racing bike designed to be UCI-compliant and to get me to the bunch sprint where it excels (but I don't).  He continued, saying that cyclocross is an off-season training tool for road racers, and the bikes are supposed to have the same geometry as the in-season road bike so the racer keeps the same muscles trained (and maybe others).  So although they may have cushier tires, they will abuse you the same as the road bike would, especially if custom-sized like mine.  Unless one needs a UCI-compliant bike for sanctioned races, such a bike is not a great choice for all-day riding.  My neck, wrists and privates agree.

He opined that gravel bikes are also a disaster as marketed, because they are mostly race geometry bikes with big tires, rather than, as he put it, bikes that actually ride well on gravel.  They work well enough for racers, because that's what they are trained to expect, but not as well as a more upright frame with supple 3" tires.  His description of the social situation surrounding his riding this way:  "I show up and everyone is telling me everything wrong with my bike.  The frame is too long, I sit too high, the tires are too wide, have too much tread, and aren't pumped up enough.  Then I keep up with them and am not beat up after the ride.  Then I go banging around off curbs and explore without a second thought."

So, one of these weeks I should be getting one of these beasties, and we'll see just how it pans out.

You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "650b" group.

To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to 650b+uns...@googlegroups.com.

[satanas]

Very interesting, thanks, and increases the chance I might buy a Jones one day. If I was on the same continent that would help too. ;-)

I'm a bit dubious though about the idea that a custom fitted drop bar bike is going to be *less* comfortable than one which isn't. If that's the case you need to see a different fitter; things were better for me after seeing Steve Hogg, and making several relatively small adjustments.

If the fitter is just trying to put you in some preconceived position based on statistical data or "how the pros look," then that won't work for everyone; individual quirks, flexibility and injury history all need to be taken into account. FWIW, Steve Hogg has said half-jokingly that he tends to get the recalcitrant clients/cases whom other fitters have failed with...

Later,
Stephen

[Max]

That’s a great summary! Reminds me in some ways of the Matt Chester off-road design philosophy, although that hews closer to the road geo, too?.. (there’s an improbable request: anyone with both care to compare?)

Also, anyone know how the traditional / old path racer (or the Ibis Scorcher, for that matter) geometry compares to the Jones?.. Could those be the skinny tire analogues?

- Max “If we go back far enough, will we leap ahead?” in A2

[Joseph Bernard]

That's an interesting (and well written) tale, Eric. Not my style, of course, but Jeff sounds like a good fellow to work with. I look forward to hearing all about your bike (with photos!) when you get it. 

[eric moss]

I can say that my fitted drop bar (race) bikes are more comfortable position-wise than any off-the-shelf race machine I've tried.  Sacha White of Vanilla did the fitting and then built the bike, so I'd kind of expect that.  While I could likely get the same contact points from other frames, these get it right without any super-long/short stems or extreme saddle position, and bike balance is perfect.  However, they are still steep, short, race-y bikes with sprint-worthy stiffness. Amazing on perfect pavement, but even with the largest Veloflex tubulars that fit, exhausting on rougher roads.  A real athlete would laugh at that, but a real athlete I'm not.  So we'll see.  At the least, I suspect it will be much more comfortable than my current unsuspended 29r that is too long for me.

[satanas]

"While I could likely get the same contact points from other frames, these get it right without any super-long/short stems or extreme saddle position, and bike balance is perfect."

^ And there in a nutshell is why custom frames are valid. My (conventional bike) fit problems tend to be the other way around - not long enough fore/aft and too tall at the bars, but it might be different when Jonesing around.

[Mark in Beacon]

The Ibis Scorcher has a fairly standard geometry. It (barely) fit the Specialized Nimbus tires that came stock, which were about 41mm IIRC, and just cleared the cheap dia compe front brake. I immediately replaced the crummy rear bmx wheel, which stripped the first time I rode it, with a regular track wheel. The scorcher half moon bars were cool but super flexy, nothing like the Jones bar. These bikes share almost no DNA in terms of geometry, wheels, bars, etc. I did happily commute on my modified Scorcher for a number of years, and the wide for the times tires certainly contributed to smoothing out the rough spots in NYC pavement. But the Jones is in a category of its own, much more of a "from the ground up" rethink.

As far as numbers, most of my bicycles over the last decade or two have been craigslist purchases, so no numbers. The new bikes I've bought--Clementine, Lyon, Jones--I just go with the logical choice--medium! Or give the builder my frame size and let it go. I sympathize with those whose requirements are so much more exacting.

[Chris L]

An employee at a bike shop about an hour away let me ride his steel spaceframe, which he was running with a 120mm stem and regular MTB handlebar.  At 6'2", he said he was at the max end of Jeff's sizing recommendations but he felt the bike was still too small and was working on a custom (non-Jones). 

I don't have a lot of experience with different bikes but I truly enjoyed the Jones.  I often see it described as agile yet stable and that's a good description.  I didn't spend a lot of time on it since it was his personal bike but it's one of the very small number of test rides where I thought I could take the bike as-is, and ride it daily with no complaints.   

I'm hoping to make a big bicycle purchase in the next year or so and the Jones complete is in the top 3 contenders, with the other two being full custom framesets.    

I will add that I am very particular about reach to the handlebars and handlebar width but in riding with the Jones H-Bar, I've discovered that I can comfortably use a much wider variety of riding positions, both in reach and handlebar width.  Something about the angles allows me to get comfortable with my hands in positions (relative to the saddle) that would make me miserable with a regular MTB handlebar.   

On Tuesday, August 7, 2018 at 12:06:55 PM UTC-5, Doug H. wrote:

I’ve been looking at the new Jones SWB complete and the koolaid is tasty. Could it be that this bike is good for all surfaces and the wide tires at low pressure negate the need for a suspension fork? What say you?
Doug

[mitch....@gmail.com]

Great to hear this account, thanks.

About the group ride he described to you—was it a trail ride or road ride? Dirt or pavement? Just curious about how to interpret the story:
“...His description of the social situation surrounding his riding this way: "I show up and everyone is telling me everything wrong with my bike. The frame is too long, I sit too high, the tires are too wide, have too much tread, and aren't pumped up enough. Then I keep up with them and am not beat up after the ride. Then I go banging around off curbs and explore without a second thought..."

Mitch
in Utah

[eric moss]

My memory is a bit fuzzy because he spoke quickly and we ping-ponged between a lot of topics.  I *think* he was talking about a mix of pavement, gravel and hardpack, where most people were showing up with cyclocross tires.  He might have been implying an all-road ride, but while he is super-fit, I don't see even a super-supple 3" tire keeping up with supple 28mm tires.  OTOH, he may be riding with people who run 22mm tires hard as a rock on pavement that is rough enough to really penalize them.  The one thing I clearly remember is that after any ride, he said he'd have tired legs, but no soreness anywhere.

[eric moss]

More Kool-Aid from Path Less Pedaled:

  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zKUqQkd_THI

  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=88pTHaYQ0_k

and a long interview (apologies if this is a re-post):

  https://fat-bike.com/2017/04/fat-camp-jeff-jones-interview/ 

[Lee Legrand]

Wondering why Pathless Pedal is passing Kool-Aid?

[eric moss]

They review bikes and gear.  He likes the bike, enough to be one of the few he considers buying.

[Lee Legrand]

I understand what you are saying using the term Kool-Aid in reference to things that Jim Jones has done.  Not saying that he is not bias towards bicycle and yes, I would agree with you that he should, if he isn't, review gear that he does not like, not just the ones he likes.  Just do not think he is analogous to Jim Jones Kool-Aid reference. He is probably more of a person tries to confirm his own beliefs (confirmation bias) than a person who literally has a cult following him or leading them to some delusional aspect of bicycles.  Everyone here has that aspect of bicycles they like and dislike (ex. low trail vs high trail).  I understand what you are getting at.

[Joseph Bernard]

It's Jeff Jones, and I'm amazed I didn't make the connection to the thread title before 😳

You received this message because you are subscribed to a topic in the Google Groups "650b" group.
To unsubscribe from this topic, visit https://groups.google.com/d/topic/650b/RUqFrvgCpok/unsubscribe.
To unsubscribe from this group and all its topics, send an email to 650b+uns...@googlegroups.com.

[eric moss]

I'm really not following you, as the phrase has passed into common parlance, and I only used "Kool Aid" because the original post had that in the title, and I stayed in the thread rather than starting another one.  BTW, I will be taking delivery of a Jones spaceframe soon.

[eric moss]

PS.  I credit myself with contacting both Jones and Path Less Pedaled to recommend they communicate and set up a review.  Maybe they would have done it anyway, but I did my best to facilitate it.

[Lee Legrand]

Looking at the first post from this email from you that says "More Kool-Aid from Pathless pedal".  It is not a big thing, let us forget it.

[Mark in Beacon]

Who's on first?

[Joseph Bernard]

Yes!

On Wed, Sep 26, 2018, 6:29 AM Mark in Beacon <absolut...@gmail.com> wrote:

Who's on first?

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to a topic in the Google Groups "650b" group.
To unsubscribe from this topic, visit https://groups.google.com/d/topic/650b/RUqFrvgCpok/unsubscribe.
To unsubscribe from this group and all its topics, send an email to 650b+uns...@googlegroups.com.

[Doug H.]

When I started this thread I had just finished a Podcast about the Jonestown horror. Jeff Jones seems to make quality uniquely designed bikes so the koolaid reference was a joke. Who remembers the koolaid ads with the big pitcher of koolaid?
Doug

[Justin, Oakland]

I mean some folks do advocate for not using the Kool Aid reference given the horror that resulted from it. Especially in a joking manner. Not sure where I land on that but I hadn’t connected the last name thing until just now.

-J

[Joseph Bernard]

I hadn't connected it, either, and can't say I have a strong opinion on it. I was just a little startled when someone accidentally called the owner Jim Jones 😳

On Wed, Sep 26, 2018, 7:59 AM Justin, Oakland <justin...@gmail.com> wrote:

I mean some folks do advocate for not using the Kool Aid reference given the horror that resulted from it. Especially in a joking manner. Not sure where I land on that but I hadn’t connected the last name thing until just now.

-J

[Bill M.]

I'm kind of one of those folks.  My grandmother lived just down the road from the People's Temple in Mendocino County.  She had neighbors that were members, and I think a couple of kids I played with one summer when we were visiting died in Guyana.  

I had a manager once who did not know the source of the phrase, and used it in a light-hearted "come join the fun" way.  I unloaded at him a bit (behind closed doors).  He didn't do that again.

Bill

Stockton, CA

[Justin, Oakland]

Fair point. I don’t use it myself (that I’m conscious of) and have found that most are ignorant of its origins, similar to being grandfathered in, sold down the river and many other expressions with less than savory origins. Thanks for the reminder.

-J

[jack loudon]

The origins of the Kool Aid phrase are from its use with LSD in the 1960's.  

[Joseph Bernard]

That is not how it entered into the current vernacular. Kool-Aid was literally used at Jonestown, then the rather offensive phrasing became so common that many people don't even recognize why they use it now. 

--

[Mark in Beacon]

Uh-oh. Better not call a blitz.

[jack loudon]

Thanks Joe, I just Googled it and stand corrected.

Jack

[Justin, Oakland]

Thanks Joe.
🤙🏻
Apology accepted Jack. 🖖🏻
-J

[David Madina]

Somewhat of a tangent... considering the production Jones SWB or Karate Monkey for my next bike. Just some easy trails, nothing super technical where I’d need suspension. Any advice or suggestions?

[eric moss]

My thoughts are to always try something new (not goofy -- I don't eat spiders, after all).  That's why I decided to get a Jones spaceframe LWB.  I always had fun with my old MB-1 and its successor, but all the riding has beat the crap out of my joints, including my hands.  My neck isn't happy craning to see what's ahead, either. The idea of having a bike that has me upright so I can take the jolts with my strongest muscles rather than weakest is appealing.  Seeing Jones climb stairs and what looked like a 45 degree slope with no trouble is also appealing, as is not being afraid of going over the bars on a steep descent.  Will I like it when I get it?  I think so.  At the least, I know that token change in approach cannot yield much of a change in result.

All that said, I'd watch all the Jones videos and see if the riding he does looks like the riding you'd have fun with, and around the same general level of difficulty.  If so, go for it.

On Thu, Sep 27, 2018 at 11:26 PM David Madina <dmad...@gmail.com> wrote:

Somewhat of a tangent... considering the production Jones SWB or Karate Monkey for my next bike. Just some easy trails, nothing super technical where I’d need suspension. Any advice or suggestions?

--

You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "650b" group.

To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to 650b+uns...@googlegroups.com.

[rcnute]

In defense of Kool-Aid...https://www.vox.com/2015/5/23/8647095/kool-aid-jonestown-flavor-aid

Ryan

On Thursday, September 27, 2018 at 11:16:39 AM UTC-7, Joe Bernard wrote:

[Justin, Oakland]

🤯

[Jonathan Donehower]

All I know is I like reading anything about the Jones and waiting for one of the the completes to pop up used. I just wish I could test ride. Joe needs to buy a medium. I wish there was a way to test ride easily. I think I would prefer this to the new Rivendell Gus.

[Joseph Bernard]

I would lean to the Gus for the same reason: I trust Riv's sizing without a test ride. I also like pretty paint. 

On Tue, Oct 2, 2018, 10:40 AM Jonathan Donehower <jdone...@gmail.com> wrote:

All I know is I like reading anything about the Jones and waiting for one of the the completes to pop up used. I just wish I could test ride. Joe needs to buy a medium. I wish there was a way to test ride easily. I think I would prefer this to the new Rivendell Gus.

[eric moss]

If one has some $$ and doesn't mind a non-Plus model, there is a Ti spaceframe 29r on eBay for half of retail.  There are also some on various Craigslists that I found by googling.  One was new and built up by someone whose vacation plans had fallen through.

On Tue, Oct 2, 2018 at 12:40 PM Jonathan Donehower <jdone...@gmail.com> wrote:

All I know is I like reading anything about the Jones and waiting for one of the the completes to pop up used. I just wish I could test ride. Joe needs to buy a medium. I wish there was a way to test ride easily. I think I would prefer this to the new Rivendell Gus.

--

You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "650b" group.

To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to 650b+uns...@googlegroups.com.

[Joseph Bernard]

I can't find anything on Ebay. 

You received this message because you are subscribed to a topic in the Google Groups "650b" group.
To unsubscribe from this topic, visit https://groups.google.com/d/topic/650b/RUqFrvgCpok/unsubscribe.
To unsubscribe from this group and all its topics, send an email to 650b+uns...@googlegroups.com.

[eric moss]

Oops, sorry -- the Ti bike was on pinkbike (I found it through the Jeff Jones Bikes Owners Page on Facebook):

https://www.pinkbike.com/buysell/2385438/

[eric moss]

Here is the one on Craigslist -- Medford OR is a few miles from Jeff Jones' shop.

https://medford.craigslist.org/bik/d/jones-custom-spaceframe-29/6709935933.html

[Jonathan Donehower]

The Medford one looks great. I have family down there but won’t be visiting anytime soo. I also need to decide what I can sell to buy a Jones.

[Mark in Beacon]

The Riv Gus hill bike will be what, $1600 for the tigged version, so for most a pretty good price difference compared to a Jones Complete.