Rene Herse: One sided Customer Support.

[Hugh Smitham]

I understand and agree that RH has great products. And I'm happy they exist, and even though they have great products the other side of their business model is a failure. I believe keeping past, present and future customers like Rivendell does is a winning recipe. 

I'm building another bike and was pretty committed to going with 27.5″ x 2.2″ (650B x 55) Umtanum Ridge TC (Endurance casing )Tire. So I clicked my way over to RH and added 2 of these tires in my cart, low and behold RH has only one tire in stock. You can't as far as I can tell send an email to be notified when the item is back in stock. My 60 YO brain gears started moving, Hey I'll shoot an email to Jan and ask when might they have more of these in stock? Nope, no email, no phone number, no way to make a query. I then recalled, I had a similar question regarding the Rene Herse Decaleur For Nitto Stem. That was back in May,  I left a DM on Jan's IG account. Crickets.

I do understand if you have a return there's a form you can fill out. Lovely. On Reddit, I have read that most people with a tire fail have submitted a claim and Jan will offer 20% off a new tire. One user on another catastrophic fail claimed RH said "it couldn't have been a problem with the tire" he was offered the 20% off a new tire.  

I follow RH via email and IG, perhaps I've missed an update on product time lines, not via email. Maybe some on this group are in the know and can shed some light. 

Now this is possibly gonna be an unpopular take especially in the era of Covid, but manning an email by an employee for customer support is not a health risk. Fact is it lines up well for remote work conditions. Personally, I feel some, not all small business's have used Covid as a convenient excuse to bail outright on customer service. 

Has me considering another tire?

Hugh n LA

[randal...@gmail.com]

The proper way to contact Rene Herse customer support is to comment negatively on an article or press release about the company or one of it's products. The recent Herse stem article on bikepacking.com would have been a perfect time to open your warranty claim. Please clearly state both your actual problem, as well as a hypothetical problem in order to entice a response from the company. 

Something along the lines "Like many other customers, a Rene Herse tire failed and blew off the rim, and they're never in stock so I can't even buy another one (650B x 55) Umtanum Ridge TC (Endurance casing )"

Within a few hours you'll have a 500 word response packed with implications that you installed the tire wrong, tire blow offs rarely happen to Herse customers, and perhaps you should buy one of the rims stocked in the Rene Herse webstore to make sure you have the correct G-Height for the tires. Oh you'll also get a response explaining that Jan flew back and forth to Japan 40 times last year to make sure the renewable coconut oil and walnut powered cargo ship specifically contracted to deliver Herse tires was complete and will be making it's first delivery in the middle of November so the tire you are interested in will be available by Thanksgiving 2021. 

Good luck, all of us on the "Just As Good" side riding Maxxis, Continental, and Schwalbe will welcome you with open arms anytime you want to come over.

[mevan...@gmail.com]

From the Rene Herse web site:

When will _____ be back in stock?

This question is difficult to answer. If things were going according to planned schedules, products wouldn't be out of stock in the first place. You can sign up to be notified when a particular item is back in stock. Also make sure to sign up for our newsletter so you’ll be the first to know when a shipment arrives.

https://www.renehersecycles.com/faq_cat/orders-faq/

With the current supply situation, I can imagine that the flood of emails asking where things would be overwhelming.

[Hugh Smitham]

Mevan,

When will _____ be back in stock?

This question is difficult to answer. If things were going according to planned schedules, products wouldn't be out of stock in the first place. You can sign up to be notified when a particular item is back in stock. Also make sure to sign up for our newsletter so you’ll be the first to know when a shipment arrives.

Saw that. I get the newsletter, no mention. 

https://www.renehersecycles.com/faq_cat/orders-faq/

With the current supply situation, I can imagine that the flood of emails asking where things would be overwhelming.

With no in...@email.com I doubt there's a flood of questions, which I suppose is the point. This could be easily remedied by a quick blurb to customers in the newsletter or IG feed.

Hugh 

[Hugh Smitham]

Randall,

The proper way to contact Rene Herse customer support is to comment negatively on an article or press release about the company or one of it's products. The recent Herse stem article on bikepacking.com would have been a perfect time to open your warranty claim. Please clearly state both your actual problem, as well as a hypothetical problem in order to entice a response from the company. 

I don't want to warranty anything. I just wanted a timeframe (a reasonable request) on a restock of a particular tire. I think it speaks volumes that as customers we would need to resort to such extreme measure's. 

Something along the lines "Like many other customers, a Rene Herse tire failed and blew off the rim, and they're never in stock so I can't even buy another one (650B x 55) Umtanum Ridge TC (Endurance casing )"

Pretty much what I'm doing on this group and the iBOB group.  

Within a few hours you'll have a 500 word response packed with implications that you installed the tire wrong, tire blow offs rarely happen to Herse customers, and perhaps you should buy one of the rims stocked in the Rene Herse webstore to make sure you have the correct G-Height for the tires. Oh you'll also get a response explaining that Jan flew back and forth to Japan 40 times last year to make sure the renewable coconut oil and walnut powered cargo ship specifically contracted to deliver Herse tires was complete and will be making it's first delivery in the middle of November so the tire you are interested in will be available by Thanksgiving 2021. 

This was the most amusing part, you have the scenario pegged! So hilarious :)  

Good luck, all of us on the "Just As Good" side riding Maxxis, Continental, and Schwalbe will welcome you with open arms anytime you want to come over.

Been over on that side for a while, but the hype peaked my curiosity, leading me down this rabbit hole. Probably going to purchase some Bontrager XR3's and be happy with those. And RH can shove it. 

Hugh n LA

[David Dye]

"I don't want to warranty anything. I just wanted a timeframe (a reasonable request) on a restock of a particular tire. I think it speaks volumes that as customers we would need to resort to such extreme measure's. "

You might think this would be a simple request. It's not. It's just fucking not.

Global shipping is a nightmare right now. We had containers full of bikes sitting at the port for five months, just waiting to finally get put on a ship. This, after paying an extra $12,000 per container for VIP Service so we wouldn't get bumped...

It sucks, but at least RH is being upfront and honest about it. They just don't know when the tires are coming and any answer they give you will almost certainly be wrong - and then you're gonna be pissed about further delays.

[Joe Bernard]

This is correct. The answer to "when is a bike/part going to be back in stock" is..buy something you can find now or wait. As the quote from an old Bridgestone catalog goes (I think it's Bob Dylan), ,"asking me is the same as asking you."

Joe Bernard

[weste...@gmail.com]

FWIW, there are many, many reasons a tire can fail -- and folks running  tires on various rims not necessarily intended for those ties (esp an issue with tubeless setups) and with widely varying degrees of setup completely out of the control of either rim or tire manufacturer  -- for tubeless just a few variables include the freshness of the sealant,  the PSI, the trail/road conditions, the weight and riding skills of the rider, etc. 

I've made dunderheaded mistakes and have seen others do so as well -- and I've sometimes had bad luck trying to push the envelope either on my skills or appropriateness of my setup for where/how I'm riding.  Herse now has 700+ dealers and presumably sells thousands of tires every year. I'm willing to wager that almost none of the few failures are actually due to a manufacturing defect. 

In my opinion Jan is far more upfront about the process of producing and the limits of his products than almost any other bike sector vendor -- and a lot of his tires, esp. the ultralights -- are on the performance edge -- and comparing them to more pedestrian offerings on durability is simple apples to oranges. 

Funnily enough I was reading a touring list the other day where someone was claiming that Schwalbe Marathons were garbage as they had one fail -- that tire is a well known as a super-tough beast but that poster was convinced they were all junk because his failed after "only" 1500 miles from a sidewall cut -- and that was on a slow, super stiff tire. 

My one experience with Compass/Herse with an issue was dealt with quickly and professionally -- but probably it helped that I didn't approach it from a position of righteous indignation and public condemnation, but as someone trying to resolve an issue amicably in good faith.

YMMV. 

Julian Westerhout 

[William Lindsay]

Julian pointed out that Rene Herse has 700+ dealers.  

There really does appear to be some kind of inflection point where a small-scale cycling product vendor crosses over from small-scale to medium-scale.  Rivendell may be the prime example for the biggest small-scale vendor.  They sell ~$2M a year, have like 10 dealers, and do most of their business direct.  Medium-scale is an outfit that has hundreds or thousands of vendors who don't have to do much consumer-direct support.  I think of local manufacturers like White Industries and Paul Components.  Then there are large scale vendors, who almost never have to interact with the end-users at all.  Large scale is even more removed: Shimano, SRAM, all the big bike companies, Continental, Michelin, Maxxis, Schwalbe, etc.  

Where does Rene Herse fall in there?  Are they Rivendell?  Are they destined/required to handhold a bunch of really high-maintenance fretters amd handwringers through their trials and trevails?  Are they Paul or White Industries?  High end components that sell like commodities on the internet?  Or are they a tire vendor like Maxxis, Schwalbe or Continental, largely separated from their end users with a solid protective barrier of bike shops and online retailers?  

From my perspective, they (Rene Herse) are kind of in the middle, between where they were and where they intend to be.  Case in point is a recent purchase I just pushed through: I wanted to buy about $1000 worth of stuff from Rene Herse.  I reached out to a local retailer, Mike Varley at Black Mountain Cycles, and asked him if he wanted to transact the $1000 worth of business through his register.  I always try to push all my Rene Herse commerce through local shops, because Rene Herse seems dead-set on offloading support to shops.  Mike told me, "you might as well buy it yourself direct from Rene Herse.  I don't make enough in the transaction to make it worth the effort"   From my perspective, that sucks.  If a vendor (Rene Herse) wants to be a wholesaler, who leans on bike shops to provide all the support, then those shops should feel like they are making good money with every Rene Herse transaction.  If Rene Herse wants to take all the markup for themselves, and knock out the middleman, then they should provide top-notch and fully available customer support. Right now, they are neither here nor there.  They are lucky to have customers like me, who are largely self-supporting.  If their business model requires all their customers to either have more expertise than Bill Lindsay, AND/OR to be more willing to throw away money than Bill Lindsay, then I think that model is miscalculated.  

Bill Lindsay

El Cerrito, CA

[eric.davi...@gmail.com]

Bill said:

From my perspective, they (Rene Herse) are kind of in the middle, between where they were and where they intend to be.  Case in point is a recent purchase I just pushed through: I wanted to buy about $1000 worth of stuff from Rene Herse.  I reached out to a local retailer, Mike Varley at Black Mountain Cycles, and asked him if he wanted to transact the $1000 worth of business through his register.  I always try to push all my Rene Herse commerce through local shops, because Rene Herse seems dead-set on offloading support to shops.  Mike told me, "you might as well buy it yourself direct from Rene Herse.  I don't make enough in the transaction to make it worth the effort"   

This is interesting. I've been buying RH tires from LBSs under the assumption that somehow I was helping the LBS pick up some margin on a wholesale price. My concern now is that somehow I'm wasting the LBS's time having them order something that they make almost no money on. Anyone working in an LBS have any thoughts here?

Eric Langley-Rokhlin

Portland,OR

[William Lindsay]

The margin on RH tires must be sufficient and fair to shops, because shops keep the tires on the shelf (including Black Mountain Cycles, and the local Trek boutique in Berkeley).  The majority of my particular order was HED 650B rim brake rims.  Maybe the margins on those rims are so razor-thin that there's no room for anybody to make any money.  Maybe it was just a special case, along with the additional fact that I was cleaning them out, Mike said "buy now before they're gone".  

Bill Lindsay

El Cerrito, CA

[satanas]

First, a disclaimer: I've never had to contact RH customer support, am unlikely to ever do so, and have no opinion about it.

However, I do have opinions about other companies' customer support  or lack thereof.

IMHO, Shimano do about the best job here, since their documentation is generally clear and intelligible, their line drawings are unambiguous, and if you're a shop you can normally ring someone and get answers if stumped about something. They are also very good about warranty, IME. Note that I'm not saying I agree with everything Shimano does, and nor do I think the sun shines out of their corporate backside, but they generally do a pretty good job, pandemic problems excepted. On the other hand, information about how components should interface with frames is extremely hard to obtain, hidden, and not publicly available, whereas SRAM publish both road and MTB "frame fit specifications" PDFs annually, and these are freely downloadable by anyone. SRAM's specifications however leave much to be desired, whilst Shimano's are much more comprehensive; si.shimano.com is extremely useful.

Here in Australia at least, other manufacturers are represented by companies acting as importers or agents, and unfortunately they frequently don't know much (apart from pricing, and perhaps availability), and cannot, or are unwilling or unable to find anything out; some of them "couldn't lie straight in bed" and prefer to either deny or obfuscate whenever possible, as is true of organizations in any field. With small companies one can sometimes contact them directly but it's better if one doesn't need to, which means both website design and documentation are crucial to saving everyone's time. Some bike companies actually produce very useful, non-generic manuals for at least their better bikes/framesets, but this is by no means universal, unfortunately. Many/most companies never respond to queries via email, which effectively means they are uncontactable unless one is able and willing to try to phone them.

Then there is Wahoo, my personal nemesis... They're happy to send out endless amounts of marketing bumff, but there's a distinct lack of useful information to be had, plus they are IME dishonest, both by omission and commission; their actions (and inactions) after the Speedplay takeover don't hold up to anything resembling ethical standards IMO, and they've permanently alienated me, and no doubt others. Unfortunately, the cycling GPS market is now basically split between Wahoo (whom I intend to boycott until I drop), and Garmin, whom I'd prefer to avoid due to their generally monopolistic practices. :-(

Re margins: Pre-pandemic it was often faster, cheaper and easier to obtain parts from Germany or the UK than from local wholesalers, even for shops. Companies like Wiggle, CRC, Bike24, etc, are also much more likely to have stock - or be able to get it quickly - than are shops or importers here. Export restrictions don't improve matters for local shops or importers either, as the usual result is just to make things totally unobtainable if one lives outside North America or the EC. Margins on bikes are even lower than they are for parts, and all these margins are much, much lower than they are for things like outdoor equipment, clothing, ski gear, etc.

Few people make huge profits out of LBSs, despite some people's perceptions of price gouging.

Later,

Stephen

[randal...@gmail.com]

I think it's obvious after years of these sorts of complaints that the company seeks to occupy the inscrutable middle wherein access to economies of scale is achieved, status as a luxury good is solidified; but customer facing channels are largely neglected. A vanguard of volunteer enthusiasts precipitate almost all discussion of the products, where the helmsman himself does not wade into the fray. So in a sense brand protection is assured. New customers will continually outweigh disgruntled customers who leave the brand, loyal existing customers do much unpaid work in product support and marketing. Most customers never need anything and of those that do the percentage that will accept nothing and remain a customer is reasonable. Creating animus in a small slice of the market share has no effect.

This is recognizable to most people, against many corporations it is impossible to receive customer support unless one has connections within the company or a large online following. You have an issue with a Rene Herse product? How many Instagram followers do you have?

One of the more perplexing twists is that Panaracer USA has a very generous warranty and support. Of the couple dozen 700cx38 Gravelking slicks (10% lighter than the Herse Extralight Barlow Pass, as fast and 1/2 the cost) I've had over the years one needed to go back due to a tread issue. I had same day email contact and shipping label provided with a replacement sent out same day. Conversely my riding partner had a SBH blow off the rim while we were riding, was told in an uncredited email response that it was "probably" a G Height issue and not something that would be considered under warranty. Further emails were ignored, he hasn't bought any more tires from them but their sales have not suffered. I suppose the warranty support for B2B sales can be different, but it is thought provoking nonetheless. 

[Hugh Smitham]

Bill Lindsay wrote:

There really does appear to be some kind of inflection point where a small-scale cycling product vendor crosses over from small-scale to medium-scale.  Rivendell may be the prime example for the biggest small-scale vendor.  They sell ~$2M a year, have like 10 dealers, and do most of their business direct.  Medium-scale is an outfit that has hundreds or thousands of vendors who don't have to do much consumer-direct support.  I think of local manufacturers like White Industries and Paul Components.  Then there are large scale vendors, who almost never have to interact with the end-users at all.  Large scale is even more removed: Shimano, SRAM, all the big bike companies, Continental, Michelin, Maxxis, Schwalbe, etc. 

I think this is an interesting distinction and seems fairly accurate. In this categorization,  Rivendell is hovering at the top end of a small scale business and yet maintain great communication, before, during and after a sale. IIRC Grant tried to create a larger dealer network but ultimately the profit margins just were not there?  Medium scale companies like White and Paul are excellent examples of larger scaled companies with decent communication, although White doesn't sell direct just yet. I keep going back and buying their products and they both have a means to communicate prior to a purchase. 

Where does Rene Herse fall in there?  Are they Rivendell?  Are they destined/required to handhold a bunch of really high-maintenance fretters amd handwringers through their trials and trevails?  Are they Paul or White Industries?  High end components that sell like commodities on the internet?  Or are they a tire vendor like Maxxis, Schwalbe or Continental, largely separated from their end users with a solid protective barrier of bike shops and online retailers?

To me it seems like RH wants it both ways, to scale up but at the same time limit profit loss (profit margin's to dealers) and at the same time also limit capital overhead which may or may not factor in the lack of communication. I can't entirely blame a small company in working to have it all on their terms. On one level it's actually admirable, as a consumer frustrating.

 

From my perspective, they (Rene Herse) are kind of in the middle, between where they were and where they intend to be.  Case in point is a recent purchase I just pushed through: I wanted to buy about $1000 worth of stuff from Rene Herse.  I reached out to a local retailer, Mike Varley at Black Mountain Cycles, and asked him if he wanted to transact the $1000 worth of business through his register.  I always try to push all my Rene Herse commerce through local shops, because Rene Herse seems dead-set on offloading support to shops.  Mike told me, "you might as well buy it yourself direct from Rene Herse.  I don't make enough in the transaction to make it worth the effort"   From my perspective, that sucks.  If a vendor (Rene Herse) wants to be a wholesaler, who leans on bike shops to provide all the support, then those shops should feel like they are making good money with every Rene Herse transaction.  

If Rene Herse wants to take all the markup for themselves, and knock out the middleman, then they should provide top-notch and fully available customer support. Right now, they are neither here nor there.  They are lucky to have customers like me, who are largely self-supporting.  If their business model requires all their customers to either have more expertise than Bill Lindsay, AND/OR to be more willing to throw away money than Bill Lindsay, then I think that model is miscalculated.

Bill, really great point and I appreciate the first hand experience with Mike at BMC, I have had a similar discussion with my LBS not about RH but another niche company. It really helps me coalesce a better perspective of Rene Herse's business model in the hierarchy of the bike industry.

  

Hugh n LA

[Peter Adler]

A note for SF East Bay buyers: Lucky Duck in Oakland Chinatown also keeps most of the RH tire models in stock - the road models, at least. I'm not an offroad guy, so I mostly don't notice knobby tires. They have a relationship with Ely Rodriguez of Ruthworks Bags, whom I first met when he was doing a trunk show there; they have 20-30 different rando bags/saddlebags there at any given time. If color/design are acceptable, it'll save you the wait for Ely to make a custom.

https://www.luckyduckoakland.com

As with a number of small shops, LD sells most third-party items at MSRP. Since you'll pay MSRP direct from manufacturers with web storefronts (and most online retailers are now enforcing the requirement to charge buyer's sales tax to out-of-state purchases), buying from a local retailer for the same price:

1) keeps dollars moving across local retailers' books

2) maintains the retailer/wholesaler relationship (a lot of wholesalers require minimum orders for preferred pricing)

3) saves on shipping, which may be the industry's scarcest commodity at the moment

The last time I was in Lucky Duck in the pre-plague times, I noticed that they stocked King water bottle cages (standard and Iris) at the same price King charges direct. I filed that away for a Trek 720 build I was planning. When I finally built the Trek in January, I slapped an old cage on to get around. Then when Lucky Duck opened for retail customers again, I raced in and bought the three cages I'd wanted to buy for 18 months. The price had increased, but so had King's.

Always keep an eye on what your LBSes keep in stock. I'm in Missing Link a lot, and I make an effort to buy something every time I walk through the door, just to make sure they're still there when I need something immediately.

Peter "hunter-gatherer" Adler

Berkeley, CA/USA

[Hugh Smitham]

Bill Wrote:

The margin on RH tires must be sufficient and fair to shops, because shops keep the tires on the shelf (including Black Mountain Cycles, and the local Trek boutique in Berkeley).  The majority of my particular order was HED 650B rim brake rims.  Maybe the margins on those rims are so razor-thin that there's no room for anybody to make any money.  Maybe it was just a special case, along with the additional fact that I was cleaning them out, Mike said "buy now before they're gone".  

I wonder? Is it? Could it also be that niche shops like BMC as a courtesy to their clients offer RH products with the notion that said customers will likely purchase other item(s) and or services with greater profit margins?  Sort of feels that way to me and kind of the theme perhaps of your previous post. Just wondering.

 Hugh n LA

[Hugh Smitham]

I think it's obvious after years of these sorts of complaints that the company seeks to occupy the inscrutable middle wherein access to economies of scale is achieved, status as a luxury good is solidified; but customer facing channels are largely neglected. A vanguard of volunteer enthusiasts precipitate almost all discussion of the products, where the helmsman himself does not wade into the fray. So in a sense brand protection is assured. New customers will continually outweigh disgruntled customers who leave the brand, loyal existing customers do much unpaid work in product support and marketing. Most customers never need anything and of those that do the percentage that will accept nothing and remain a customer is reasonable. Creating animus in a small slice of the market share has no effect.

Damn, you really sum it up. It's what has been floating around in my head but never fully realized in a cogent way. 

This is recognizable to most people, against many corporations it is impossible to receive customer support unless one has connections within the company or a large online following. You have an issue with a Rene Herse product? How many Instagram followers do you have?

One of the more perplexing twists is that Panaracer USA has a very generous warranty and support. Of the couple dozen 700cx38 Gravelking slicks (10% lighter than the Herse Extralight Barlow Pass, as fast and 1/2 the cost) I've had over the years one needed to go back due to a tread issue. I had same day email contact and shipping label provided with a replacement sent out same day. Conversely my riding partner had a SBH blow off the rim while we were riding, was told in an uncredited email response that it was "probably" a G Height issue and not something that would be considered under warranty. Further emails were ignored, he hasn't bought any more tires from them but their sales have not suffered. I suppose the warranty support for B2B sales can be different, but it is thought provoking nonetheless. 

It is? But I'm not delving any deeper, there are repercussions after all /s

Hugh n LA 

[Bob Chmara]

I used to work in a local shop and was responsible for purchasing from RH although we only stocked the tires and occasionally a few copies of BQ.  My recollection is that for most products, their wholesale pricing leaves room for a fair margin for the retailer.  I'm not sure if the shop is still carrying the RH tires though.  Shortly after I left, the shop was bought by Specialized.

 

-- 

Bob Chmara

Southfield, Michigan, USA

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[Jan Heine]

The margins Rene Herse offers on most products are a little better than standard retail margins. We value the shops and their expertise, and we are happy when they recommend our products to their customers. We don't spend any money on advertising, so we rely on shops to spread the word about our products.

Early during the pandemic, we saw a lot of panic buys by shops when Rene Herse became the only source for products. This included rims and inner tubes. One shop who had not ordered from us in years suddenly placed an order for 150 inner tubes, cleaning out our entire supply in that size. Another ordered 30 rims. (We didn't fill those orders and refunded their money instead.) To avoid this type thing, we reduced the margins on those impossible-to-find items. That way, shops can still buy them if they need to build a wheelset or fix a flat, but our stocks remain available to all customers – shops and individual cyclists alike. Of course, that means that shops wouldn't make much if they just ordered those products for you without adding any value (like build a wheel where they can make money on the hub, spokes and labor).

Even with good margins, shops don't make a lot on special orders, because there's staff time, shipping, etc. If you see something at a local shop, please buy it from them, rather than trying to find it for less online. But if they have to order it for you, you might as well order it directly.

As to Rene Herse's customer support, we stand behind our products. If you have a problem, it's easy to contact us via our web site, and our customer service staff are both knowledgeable and deal with things quickly. We all wear many hats, so you may not get a response the same day, but you'll get a response within a reasonable time, and it's a response from somebody who doesn't just read off the same FAQ that you're looking at online, but somebody who actually knows the product. And thanks to our new customer service system, the employee also knows which order you're referring to and can see all previous correspondence, no matter who at the company wrote it. That has reduced confusion compared to simple emails and phone calls. We started this during the pandemic, when we worked remotely and couldn't just walk over to another desk and ask "Did you already talk to this customer?" It's proven so useful that we now wish we had done this long ago.

We've also worked hard to put all our technical documentation online, so it's accessible 24/7 and doesn't require waiting for an email response. We found that for the questions that remained, in more than 98% of cases, the answer was "We don't know," whether it's "Do Rene Herse 38 mm tires fit on my 2004 LeMond Poprad?" or "I'm 5'11" - should I use a 100 or 110 mm stem on my new build?" or "When will you get more chainrings?" We thought about hiring an additional employee just to answer those questions, but we're so small that this would significantly increase the price of our products for all customers. (We pay our employees well.) We'd rather spend that money on R&D and quality control... For most of these questions, a local shop is a better resource. They can look at the customer's bike and say "38 mm will be awfully tight - run the 35s instead" or "You'll be way too stretched out with a 110 mm stem. Try a 90!" and finally "Nobody knows when shipments will arrive."

We're not perfect, but we're trying hard to provide products that people care about at prices that are affordable, despite the small production runs and ultra-high quality. Many of our products exist only because we're passionate about them, not because there's a good business case for them. If you like what we do, we appreciate your support. If you don't, we respect that, and we don't have a problem with it.

Thank you!

Jan Heine
Rene Herse Cycles

[Scott Henry]

So about that email which was how these threads started...   Just use yours here?

These aren't new complaints and we have heard them all over various channels from many persons.   Yet nothing changes.   Smaller companies and larger companies all somehow seem to be more receptive and available with their customers.   

The marketing speak is very spot on and well thought out however.    I would always give you kudos for your marketing prowess.

Scott

Cheers,
Scott Henry
Dayton, OH

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[mevan...@gmail.com]

Thank you for the background. There'll always be haters and those who take things out of context. I for one would rather have you do more tire testing or write another book than answer questions from people who don't plan to buy from you anyhow.

Mike

[David Dye]

"The margins Rene Herse offers on most products are a little better than standard retail margins."

"If you see something at a local shop, please buy it from them, rather than trying to find it for less online. But if they have to order it for you, you might as well order it directly."

Those two statements don't really work together. It's been a few years since I stepped out of the retail world (2016) but we wouldn't stock anything we didn't make keystone on, with the exception of Compass tires. (for anyone unfamiliar, Compass and RH are the same people) Have you increased margins since then? At the time, your second statement was correct, that it wasn't hardly worth our time to order tires. If I recall correctly, we made about twenty dollars on a hundred dollar tire, as opposed to the fifty we'd make on a similarly priced tire from anyone else. 

I do hope things have changed, and RH offers better margins than I remember. They sure seem to expect A LOT from their dealers. 

Frankly, I don't believe the tires live up to the hype. I'll keep rolling Panaracer and Schwalbe so I'm not paying hypebeast prices.

[weste...@gmail.com]

FWIW, my bicycle retail days are longer ago than yours, but in conversations with shop owners I know, the story seems to be the same as it was in my days in the bike retail world -- bike margins way less than keystone (for non-retail types, that's a retail price twice as high as wholesale, or a 50% gross margin), with parts and accessories ranging from well under keystone (some higher-end parts and some clothing) to some at or above (tubes, bottles, cables, most clothing), with overall gross margin coming in in the mid-30s. If you worked at a shop with average gross margins at keystone I think that was a comparatively rare place. 

The advice for customers to order items a shop doesn't want to carry directly from the maker/seller is advice I've received from a number of shops -- even for stuff that comes from big suppliers like QPB from whom they get deliveries on a regular basis and for which they can get near or at keystone margins -- for a lot of shops with modern point of sale and inventory management systems the process of special ordering an item means creating a new SKU, entering it into the system, tracking it, etc. -- which they don't want to do -- fair enough  -- it is not for me to judge what is or is not worth it for shops to do -- it is not my business -- figuratively and literally. IMHO a good small business owner knows that trying to be all things to all customers is not often a winning formula as it consumes resources  -- time, money, and space, which are usually in short supply. 

It seems to me that a number of the commenters on this and other threads seem to have a visceral dislike of the press/publicity/image of the company and/or its products. Fine. No one is forcing you or bike shops to purchase or use their products. Presumably shops who do stock their products find it worthwhile for whatever reason, and those of us who do use their tires and/or other products and enjoy them also do so because they find them worthwhile. Those who don't won't stock or use them. Fine -- there are lots of other choices. 

Perhaps we should all just take the advice of another bike industry figure who seems to elicit extreme positions pro and con and "Just Ride!"     ;) 

Julian "may all of your tires --  regardless of brand-- be supple and last for thousands of flat-free miles, and may all of your ride have tailwinds" Westerhout

Bloomington, IL 

[Jan Heine]

This isn't the place to discuss our business relationships with bike shops, but you wouldn't see so many shops stocking our tires if they didn't make money on them (and if customers didn't buy them).

And I like Julian's suggestion...

Jan Heine
Rene Herse Cycles

[William Lindsay]

Just wait for the day Rene Herse releases the Nivex Rear Derailleur kit.  Then the bellyachers and handwringers will be out in full force!  I guarantee it.  :)

Bill Lindsay

El Cerrito, CA

[randal...@gmail.com]

I rode this morning, so we could chat all day if we wanted.

Let's focus back on the point of this thread, the questions asked and answered: Rene Herse does not have public facing customer contact information by design. Like other companies a customer or potential customer needs to use a webform and then wait for a response which may or may not come. This is a divisive stance to many as the proprietor, an enthusiast himself, enjoys engaging in forums and comment sections. So the behavior seems contradictory, even though it's not. 

A Rene Herse tire that blows off the rim is always going to be the end user's fault. This is made perfectly clear in the support documentation. With this in mind, the best means of having fast and satisfying warranty support is to buy from a shop that prefers to sell such items, instead of skirt the sales process due to laziness. 

One should support their Local Bike Shop unless what you want to order isn't worth their time, in which case just order it online. But don't order everything online, check and see if you Local Bike Shop wants the sale first. Nobody is going to compensate you for the time and effort, but do it anyway (?).

It's not pseudoscience, if you believe in it. 

A medium size company producing high-end items should be allowed to remain free from criticism if you personally like the items they produce and sell. 

We should always just be riding; never talking, never discussing, just riding. Ride. Just Ride. Always Ride. No Talk. Shhh.

[rcnute]

BITD Jan dropped off some handlebars at my place that I'd ordered.  I was trying to save him a box/post office trip but it probably ended up being more of a pain in the ass for him (at the time I lived at the top of a steep hill in Seattle).  Now that's service!

Ryan

[William Lindsay]

Ryan provided an anecdote of unusually good customer support from Jan personally, back in the day.

Today, I received my shipping notification for my $950 order (nice), along with a $20 refund because the shipping turned out cheaper than what they had been charging me (nice).  That leaves the opportunity for the complainers to point out that shipping should have been free on a $950 order, but complainers always can find something...

Bill Lindsay

El Cerrito, CA

[Anthony Pappalardo]

I remember someone said once...

You can please some of the people all of the time,

you can please all of the people some of the time,

but you can't please all of the people all of the time.

You can be in my dream,

if I can be in yours.

TonyP

---

From: 65...@googlegroups.com <65...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of William Lindsay <tape...@gmail.com>
Sent: Friday, October 29, 2021 6:03 PM
To: 650b <65...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: [650B] Re: Rene Herse: One sided Customer Support.

 

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[Evan Estern]

My experience with Rene Herse/Compass has been very positive.  About 7 or 8 years ago they did a warranty replacement for an SKF bottom bracket that had developed play even though I purchased it somewhere else (Boulder Bicycles).  They just felt it was the right thing to do.  More recently they replaced a Babyshoe Pass tire that was showing some manufacturing defects which a less experienced (or less honest) eye might have passed off as regular wear or misuse. For a small business that imports most of their products from Asia and Europe, I think they are actually doing incredibly well at keeping products in stock given the current situation.  I also get a ton of enjoyment out of the Rene Herse line of tires and other unique Rene Herse products.  Additionally, I wouldn't be riding what I ride and the way I ride if not for information and inspiration from BQ and Jan's blog.  I'm just grateful they exist and have managed to find a way to survive in a very uncertain world. 

[chrisr...@gmail.com]

At this point, Comcast has better customer service than Rene Herse...Unfortunately, Jan has made clear that he has no interest in running a company that allows customers to call or email, or even comment on his blog.  The forms on the website are useless if you need to make a change to an order prior to shipping as they take so long to respond.  I live in one of the largest cycling markets in the world in Colorado and finding a RH product in stock at a dealer is rarer than hen's teeth.  Business is clearly booming for this company, yet they don't want to scale up their overhead to meet demand and maintain some modicum of service commensurate with a boutique product, effectively choosing profit over customer service.  

As stated, the only recourse as a consumer is to vote with your wallet.  For many, RH represents a monopoly on certain products such that they are willing to tolerate these business practices as if they are a utility or telecom monopoly.  Personally, I think I'm moving on to other options, as there are plenty out there.  In fact, I think many are as good or even superior, and far better value.       

[mevan...@gmail.com]

The alternative view is that Rene Herse is focusing their customer support on actual customers and not would-be customers who are asking questions that are already answered in their tech documentation. This includes the original poster who started this thread. Rene Herse sell a lot of esoteric products. I can imagine customer's questions about the $9 rinko nut starting with What is Rinko? An hour on the phone goes quickly - ask any bike shop employee. And the part sells for $9 and most of that is probably the cost to make it. Your going to lose money in no time. The alternative is to build the pre-sale questions into the price and charge $30. I think a lot of customers are reading their documentation, blog, etc., and prefer to keep the prices where they are. And as you say those who need a number to call to confirm that something that shows out of stock on the web site really isn't available can shop elsewhere without each time starting a thread to complain about the perceived slight.

[John P]

Sort of a sideways comment on this discussion. I'm not sure it's
talked about much but I think this is a pet peeve of many
framebuilders. People contact them, ask all sorts of questions, and
disappear, often without any thanks. I don't think I'm trying to say
anything one way or the other but these conversations made me think of
this.

On a personal note I believe I buy somewhat more dog equipment than
your average individual. I feel like customer service has been
condescending and treating me poorly for some time at a couple small
outfits. I don't want to promote Amazon for many reasons, but I feel
like they don't treat me like crap. Maybe because I don't communicate
with them much.

-John

> To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/650b/d7b9a4fd-f8cc-4f76-ad93-8c8cb842af7cn%40googlegroups.com.

[J S]

I have not done business directly with RH due to their pricing and shipping charges but I do use their tires on 2 bikes purchased from bike shops.  From a sales, marketing and business management perspective I can say CS is the #1 priority any and every company should adhere to.  When I cannot call or email a company and get a timely reply I move on.  I sold, marketed and ran a business unit for a much larger company than RH, CS was always at the top of my list.  I dealt with consumers, middle distribution partners and full distributors and contact and reply drive good reputation and business success.  

I left management to move back to New England, ended up changing companies a couple of years later after 12 years with the example above and joined another company in my business type.  I spend the first 2 years getting to know the customers that were new to me (about 60+%). I became more knowledgeable than anyone of my competitors and I either answered questioned right away or if I did not know got an answer.  My business grew year after year in a territory that was always challenged before (doing a little over 1million $ a year to over 3.5 m in 2-3 years) When I left due t a back injury and retired early I still got phone called for 2-3 years with questions on how I would handle a problem. Nothing is more important than customer service on the largest, smallest, most profitable or least profitable product in a product line. 

Just my 2 cents but when a company is too busy or negligent to let me contact them or reply to me in a timely matter I move on.  

[randal...@gmail.com]

The worst part is having to call and listen to the voicemail greeting every time I have a question 

Thank you for contacting Rene Herse. Jan cannot come to the phone at this time as he is currently feuding with Mike Kone in a Google Groups discussion about the representation of a bicycle frame builder who has been dead for 45 years. Please note you have heard correctly, that was Google Groups, the outdated web based discussion client in which participants engage with each other through mass emails received in their personal inbox. Also note that Rene Herse did, in fact, work under the tutelage of Narcisse Manevitch before developing his personal brand and rising to prominence as the "Magician of Levallois". This was common at a time where a constructeur did not enter industry without a lengthy apprentice period. We are not currently accepting messages, you may now hang up the phone. 

[ViveLemond]

I think...RH is simply awesome.

Thanks to them, and Jan specifically, I understand so much more about cycling than ever before (and I've been at it since the 80's), and I have an incredible light weight steel bike that runs 48mm tires that roll better than any of my previous tires and allow me to ride on the road, gravel, and anywhere else for that matter. It's obvious Jan's a great guy, is sincere, cares and loves to help advance cycling, and we all benefit.

I don't think anyone here or anywhere else can honestly say "their customer service is bad or they don't give a sh*t." It may not be perfect, but as anyone who has to run any sort of company knows, it ain't easy. Jan alludes to that in his post here.

It's Thanksgiving week, I'd like to give thanks to Jan, RH, and BQ. And for this forum, it's great as well.

Peace and keep the rubber side down.

[Bill Gibson]

Huzzah! Here, here! I give thanks for all the passion and sacrifice Jan and others have made in this passion for cycling. Someday, I hope we can all ride hard, and party we we get there.

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Bill Gibson
Tempe, Arizona, USA

My Photographs : https://billbgibson.myportfolio.com/ and on Behance: https://www.behance.net/BillGibson

[Sadiq Gill]

Why has Jan Heine/RH become such a lightning rod?  Perhaps a bit self-promotionally excited at times (and yet so was Steve Jobs, Lee Iaccoca and even beloved Grant Petersen) but generally sells decent products.  Yes?

Am I wrong in pointing out that there are epic tales of poor to non-existent customer service from many (past and present) cycling type vendors.  I can pick on him because he has passed away, but Bruce Gordon was notoriously and even famously revered for his non-existent anti-customer service.  He even sold buttons advertising his own rudeness.  I myself tried asking a few questions about a frame I owned and he told me to stop calling and hung up on me.  At the time, I was so pissed that I sold the damn frame at a huge loss just so I could be rid of it.  

Bruce Gordon makes Jan Heine/Rene Herse look like Santa Claus.  So buy from RH or not.  These in-depth analyses of the RH business model are tiring.  I suggest that instead we poke fun at the number of Jannies (pictures of Jan) run in every BQ issue.  That would at least be humorous.

Sadiq Gill

Richmond VA

USA

Sent from my iPhone

On Nov 28, 2021, at 22:13, Bill Gibson <bill.b...@gmail.com> wrote:



To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/650b/CAG33NXF-Rg7%3D25Ve%2BHrGuwbkG8s%2BHu_A1q8m5Ww7q_dtySEiFw%40mail.gmail.com.

[randal...@gmail.com]

Dear Hugh in LA,

Please be advised the coconut oil and walnut powered cargo ship ran through rough seas on the transit from Japan so a smaller quantity of tires were received than expected. As such there are 2, but only 2,  27.5″ x 2.2″ (650B x 55) Umtanum Ridge TC (Endurance casing ) tires currently in stock. Hopefully you shall be able to purchase.

Answering as a joke, turns out to have been true,

Randy in Atlanta

[Joseph Bernard]

Amusingly Bruce was very nice to me the few times I saw him. I'm kinda introverted have a bit of a stammer in person, I think he figured that out. 

Joe Bernard

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[mevan...@gmail.com]

Small makers have little choice but promote their products themselves. If you read only Bicycling,Cyclingnews or any of the big outlets you'd never know Rene Herse and Rivbike exist. They know that these small companies won't buy fullpage ads and I don't see them inviting editors to all expense paid junkets to exotic locations to sample the new products. A few years back it was interesting to see how much press WTB got for their "revolutionary" road plus tires with no mention at all that they were the same size and even looked the same as the RH tires. Must be hard to compete under those conditions.

[tnort...@gmail.com]

Not a really a complaint but a concern.

I ordered some frame building supplies but apparently as a Guest. So now there is no way to check on the status of my order. The Customer Support gives me no option.

Tom Norton

Chardon, Ohio

[woode...@yahoo.com]

I thought I was stoic enough to order from Rene Herse......

[Harry Travis]

Recall Bruce Gordon's position. (Presumably NOT) having set up an easy-to-look-up file / database of frames, with carefully selected and consistent data fields, he was losing scarce  time= money stopping what he was doing to find the spec sheets to answer questions of a subsequent frame owner.

And that new owner? An idle collector or an enthusiastic who would not have just those few questions,  but one who would ask more, and perhaps tell stories, taking more time.

A likely future client?? Haha. He bought a used bike or frame, and more likely haggled the price down than bid the price up.

IIRC, Bruce one time asked his designer/builder hourly rate for convo on previous frames of his.

Bruce Gordon Admiration Story;

How I regret not taking multiple pics of the cantilever brakes I believe he designed and built to mount / strap on (I think) an early Wound Up CF cyclocross fork. Lots of the cross-bike was BG. But, wow, those well-integrated canti-brake mounts (in polished aluminum, like Alan lugs?).

Anecdote : I was hesitant but grateful to Velo Orange for referring me to the web page with the specs for the correct version of Polyvalent I bought second hand. I supplied the serial number, and expected no more than what Igor supplied. 

--

Harry P Travis

15.1

On Nov 28, 2021, at 9:05 PM, Joseph Bernard <joer...@gmail.com> wrote:



To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/650b/CAJPyhWZ8LZUrh-8%2BeNR6sQ-iq9-YOjCrk%2Bck5YdtSErfS2aNUw%40mail.gmail.com.

[woode...@yahoo.com]

Well I finally got a shipping notification..... 14 days after an order..... 2 days after it arrived..... of course there was no way to inquire.   I subsequently ordered  a BQ subscription and signed up for an "account"   I gave up trying to log in after a week.  Not a big deal for me and understandable with the holiday season.  But that is a couple more data points reinforcing  their reputation as far as customer service go's.

[mevan...@gmail.com]

of course there was no way to inquire.   

Have you been to their web site? At the top there is a button called Order help. Myself and others here report receiving excellent support with questions regarding our orders.

 

I subsequently ordered  a BQ subscription and signed up for an "account"   I gave up trying to log in after a week.  

All these web sites are premade. A company like Rene Herse is way too small to custom design a shopping cart. The premade carts usually work well since that's all these third-party companies do. When you can't login it usually means that your account does not exist. Either because you checked out as a guest before and didn't create an account. Or you had a typo in your email and that's why the system can't find your account. Its rarely the merchants fault.

Let's hope this list doesn't turn into a place where everybody who orders something from Rene Herse reports how long it took and how many shipping notifications they received.

[Joseph Bernard]

Maybe we can change the list name to 27.5 and talk about full suspension mountain bikes. 

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[woode...@yahoo.com]

And there's 2 more data points.

[Chris Grigsby]

While I agree these threads are laughably predictable, they are relevant in the sense that Rene Herse is the primary distributor and/or manufacturer for most 650b products. 

Maybe we can just stick to the facts at hand?  

By design, there is no easy way to contact RH directly via phone or email.  This is clearly frustrating to a lot of customers, hence all of these threads.  It has nothing to do with the merits of the company or their products, save for the assumption that premium priced products should have commensurate customer service channels.  

Based on Jan’s responses, he seems steadfast in this model, so it isn’t likely to change. For some customers this is a non-issue, for some it is a minor annoyance, and for some it is a deal-breaker. 

Personally, I am fast-approaching “deal-breaker”, and that is coming from someone who probably spent $2.5k with them in the last year alone.  

Best,

Chris Grigsby

On Dec 9, 2021, at 4:18 AM, 'woode...@yahoo.com' via 650b <65...@googlegroups.com> wrote:

And there's 2 more data points.

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/650b/b5923e39-98c4-449d-b81d-c7543687224dn%40googlegroups.com.

[Steve Palincsar]

I don't think this steadfastness is a matter of preference, but rather
in the current situation, it's all they can manage.  It's taking a lot
more effort to get things through the production / distribution process
since Covid than it did before.

[Dan Vee]

All this talk about Rene Herse made me just place an order 😂

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[tnort...@gmail.com]

Curious about the size of RH as a business vs. Vélo Orange ?

I placed and order with RH on 11/29. Just got a email yesterday that they will be shipping. Placed an order with VO on 11/30 and had it 3 days later.

Tom Norton

Chardon, Ohio

[mevan...@gmail.com]

While I agree these threads are laughably predictable, they are relevant in the sense that Rene Herse is the primary distributor and/or manufacturer for most 650b products. 

The fact that nobody else has jumped on the bandwagon indicates that there isn't much profit in most of what Rene Herse does.

By design, there is no easy way to contact RH directly via phone or email.  

There's also no way to contact RH via ham radio and a variety of other communication methods. Why does that matter? Shouldn't it be enough that the company has an efficient way for customers with concerns about things they've ordered to contact them? Many companies don't use the phone any longer. Have you tried to call Paypal? Even a local bike shop has a phone message that says to contact them via their web site.

If you have questions about an item from RH and can't find the answer in their extensive online documentation then don't order it. Or order it and return it if it doesn't work. Once you've ordered something, they seem to take care of you. Seems fair to me.

[daxo potato]

the thread that won't die!

I'm curious about where this superlative customer service is? y'all are living in a different world from me! i can't get any companies to respond to emails or call me back, except maybe credit card companies and i think that's because they are regulated but I'm not sure.

i think part of it is Jan is a very public personality, active in this group and many forums, and people begin to feel like he is their weekend riding buddy they can call up to chat for an hour about their $79 purchase. 

dave moulton had a blog entry about how he didn't allow visitors to his shop. he ran a factory, however small, and it needed to remain productive in order to stay in business. honestly, i don't understand how small businesses like this can survive at all financially.

velo orange is a much bigger business than RH, I'd guess an order of magnitude bigger. they are more of an importer/marketer than manufacturer. they do very little r&d, most of their products are sourced at the taipei bike show and the velo orange name is stamped on it and there you go. i think they've engaged in more customized designs in recent years but mostly they sell mass produced products at mass produced prices. i have a lot of their stuff and I'm mostly pretty happy with it. 

RH designs and tests their products quite rigorously. they have an engineer on retainer in Taiwan to make sure their products are manufactured to their standards. etc. and the price reflects that meticulousness. within the tiny fringe of classically inflected randonneuring bikes, they are for the tiny sliver that wants the very best. that's a damn small market!

a tiny company will always have less resources to devote to customer service than a bigger one. i don't like buying online, i prefer going to actual shops, which exist... to serve customers! problem with a tyre? bring it back to the shop. need parts? ask them if they can order it. want to go for a ride and chat about tyres? find out when their weekly ride is. want low prices and impersonal zombie-bot service? order online.

-dave in NY

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[Joseph Bernard]

I get pretty good response from folks I have an order with, or just received. And Will @ Riv always answers a short email comment, but they've known me 27 years and I've spent many thousands of dollars there. I think that's the best I can expect from any small-to-medium bike company, they're kinda busy selling actual bikes and parts. 

Joe Bernard

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[Stephen Poole]

One cannot afford to be too precious about where one buys things at present, given many things are unavailable globally due to materials, power, production and delivery issues. One shop's site I looked at recently was quoting 2024 delivery for a Shimano rear derailleur if I ordered and paid now(!), and Shimano AU has been out of stock of most things all year. (The RD could be had via Aliexpress.) Rivendell mentioned around June that any new orders placed then with Microshift were ~3 years away, i.e., June 2024 delivery.

Online availability is way better than zero availability, and even shops are having to buy more things online from overseas retailers in order to obtain them at all; this isn't new, but things are getting worse, not better.

Given RH caters primarily to the traditionalist rando market (tyres excepted), largely driven by Jan-think as far as I can tell, then I'd think that between BQ, the RH website and Jan's blog there's enough info out there. If not, there are other options.

Anyone who's in a hurry for a specific item at present and demands instant gratification is not IMHO living in the rear world.

Customer service is rare, and becoming scarcer; in my experience few companies reply to emails, and while they *may* answer the phone, that doesn't guarantee they will know anything about what they are selling.

Later,

Stephen

[J S]

I don’t agree Stephen on the CS front.  I spent 30 years in sales and business management and CS was the all important component at all times.  I agree parts are a problem but the human touch from a premium priced company never should be something that is not available at all times.  VO and Rivendell manage this component much better, they are available.  

[somervillebikes]

FWIW, Velo Lumino has had a couple of minor supply-chain delays for things like wire (which goes into a lot of their products) but currently we have everything in stock. On the couple of occasions where we have not been able to ship an item immediately, we've emailed the customer personally to let them know approximately how long their order would take, then followed up with another personal email once it has shipped. For orders of multiple items where one item was delayed, we shipped the partial order straight away and then shipped the delayed portion of the order separately when it became available, absorbing that extra shipping cost.

Anton

velolumino.com

On Thursday, December 9, 2021 at 7:22:44 PM UTC-5 satanas wrote:

[Stephen Poole]

Well done Anton - please don't go broke!  ;-)

My point re CS generally was that at present there's often no certainty as to when (or if) things might become available, so it's difficult for companies to make sensible forecasts - that part of CS often isn't realistically possible. Things are apparently still getting worse; my friend's shop no longer takes orders for out-of-stock bikes due to uncertainty, and the word from Asia isn't hopeful. As for parts, if you can't find them online it's pretty much place a backorder but don't hold your breath...

There's an old saying: "If in doubt, don't," and this should IMHO be kept in mind *before* placing any orders, or speccing parts with dubious spares availability; at present this includes Shimano road disc pads and clones thereof.

Later,

Stephen

[belopol...@gmail.com]

It is *very* important, especially given the current state of scarcity, for a company to communicate promptly when customers, potential or otherwise, contact with questions. 

[randal...@gmail.com]

I enjoy reading everyone's messages about Rene Herse customer service, as well all the tangential offshoots about other companies, or other instances. Certainly keeping this group more interesting than the dozens of ISO/WTB/WTS threads nobody reads. This is a place for discussion after all. Although I suppose some portion of such must always be one group chastising another group for discussing things they don't like.

[Mike Godwin]

My $0.02 RH story. I was able to speak with the fellas many moons ago when ordering tires and bits. I wanted to change the order around, and they did.  While their prices are high for some items, other prices are similar to items I typically buy new - rims and spokes, small bits, leather items.  I found other brands of nice tires I am happy with so I am no longer buying new RH tires.  And my experience is specific to those items. I'm willing to buy a product that is a little higher in cost to support the underdog, but I don't have interest in the other high end items as my bike budget is spread across the quiver of bikes and not individually.  

Perhaps Jan can whip a button much like BG was made famous for, in his spare time.  And sell it for 10 bucks with a guaranteed 3-week TAT.  Just as a joke so peeps can write about it. Like many have said, move on if you can.   

Mike Godwin Fortuna CA

[William Lindsay]

Things tend to go full-circle.  Fifty-three days ago the OP complained here and elsewhere that he couldn't buy the tire he wanted, couldn't get a predicted date, and couldn't get RH on the phone to request a delivery date prediction.  People generally commented that they don't know whether to follow and message RH on Instagram, or complain on forums, or some other secret handshake.  Today, fifty-three days later, we all get an email update indicating they received a huge shipment of tires, including their most popular model, the very model the OP was wanting to buy.  So, if you like good tires, go buy some tires!  If you're boycotting, now there's something on the shelf to boycott against.  

Bill Lindsay

El Cerrito, CA

[randal...@gmail.com]

The  Umtanum Ridge is their most popular tire? Is this like when Netflix tells me everyone is watching Netflix Produced Show Du Jour so I should watch too? I guess that explains the bizarre repost of the Rene Herse press release over at the Radavist. What a world.

Go buy some Good Tires! And if you have a warranty problem, keep it to yourself!

[Mark in Beacon]

The thread that keeps on giving! Who knew shopping for high-end, niche bicycle products could bring people such joy and happiness!? What a world. My one big nod to over the top consumerism is splurging on fancy bike stuff I don't technically need. I will say I am puzzled by the subject line. One sided Customer Support? Is this some kind of koan?

[Michael Wong]

It seems like Chris gave a very good closing statement that we could've all agreed on:

RH doesn't take phone calls or emails, and status or info replies happen when they happen. 

It's not gonna change. All people either find this reasonable and acceptable or unreasonable and unacceptable.

The fact that this thread maintains such momentum seems more about various emotional investments in one of these two positions rather than about any revelation about why RH is RH.

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[rcnute]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RUzbmIKVAHo

Ryan

[chuc...@gmail.com]

Yes, but surely I'm not the only visionary who sees the bigger picture here: with that much emotional investment, and all this pent-up desire for consumers to share our experiences with the world, surely the 'net is ripe for a new concept: a place devoted to the sharing of such experiences.

That place need not be limited to a mailing list, it could be, say, a website, easily accessible by all - and if we're willing to dream big, I reckon this "consumers rating businesses" concept could eventually grow beyond the borders of bicycle-related goods and services.