1999 Lemond Buenos Aires Conversion

[Alex I]

Summary:

Thanks to everyone who has posted their experiences here and elsewhere online. This project took input from a wide variety of sources, too many and too long to cite. From rust mitigation, paint touch-up, conversion guidelines (that Bikeman guideline is still great), cabling guides, etc. Couldn't have figured this out on my own, thankfully everything was out there somewhere through someone else working through it.

I picked up a 1999 Lemond Buenos Aires (Reynolds 853 main tubes, 725 stays, carbon fork), pretty much stock other than tires/pedals/seat, with the intention of ultimately trying a conversion. Stripped the bike down for a quick clean but... some internal rust (seat tube and BB area) turned into quite the mini-project to get cleaned up, and I ended up doing quite a bit of nail polish paint touchup (to protect the steel and looks good from 5-10 feet kind of touchup). After reassembly, an unnoticed dent in the stock rear rim keeping it out of true made my mind up to move forward to 650b without dallying with 700c. This was 5 months in the making, partly because I'm slow and only spend ~2 nights or early mornings a week tweaking, so it's very satisfying to have it rolling.

Initial impressions at 650b are positive, the ride is very smooth. First decent ride was yesterday at ~34 miles, mix of paved asphalt/concrete and dirt road (some a bit rough and some gravel/sand). No pedal strike or other issues (I don’t corner very aggressive). I barely rode the bike with 700c on 23mm Vittoria Corsas (and on an out of true wheel with a dent) so not a lot of direct comparison. Wheel/tire combo may feel a bit slow/heavy/sluggish on ascents and descents (as might be expected with the cheap and heavy I put on there). It was buttery smooth except on washboard - even considering an alloy seatpost and stiff handlebar with no give (used to my fairly harsh road bike). I also like how the overall look came together - my friend called it “very Denver” which he may have meant as an insult, but I’ll take it as a compliment.

Details:

• Wheels: Weinmann Zac 19 (19mm internal) 650b rims with Shimano RS-300 hubs (eBay uglyrm)

• Tires: Panaracer Col de la Vie 650x38b

• Measure 35.6mm on the Zac-19s at ~ 40 psig

• To get max chainstay clearance I took the semi- horizontal dropout adjuster screws completely out and moved the wheel all the way back

• About 2mm clearance on each side at the chainstays, 8mm each side seatstays, and 3mm each side at the fork

• Brakes: Tektro R559

• Groupset (sans brakes): Shimano 105 5500 (9s) series, triple crank

Next steps (TBD - any suggestions appreciated):

• Ride, ride, ride

• Fenders - are fenders worth the effort on a bike like this? Plenty of challenges and solutions, but quite a bit of manipulation seems.

• Better rims and tires - anyone have tire suggestions for ~35mm actual width? Maybe a dynamo hub, if I go all-in on 650b.

• Racks - I may throw a rear commuter rack on there, but not sure yet. Never had a front rack, but maybe something light duty

[David Parsons]

On Sunday, August 25, 2019 at 6:02:53 AM UTC-7, Alex I wrote:

I picked up a 1999 Lemond Buenos Aires ...

 

Details:

• Wheels: Weinmann Zac 19 (19mm internal) 650b rims with Shimano RS-300 hubs (eBay uglyrm)

• Tires: Panaracer Col de la Vie 650x38b

• Measure 35.6mm on the Zac-19s at ~ 40 psig

• To get max chainstay clearance I took the semi- horizontal dropout adjuster screws completely out and moved the wheel all the way back

• About 2mm clearance on each side at the chainstays, 8mm each side seatstays, and 3mm each side at the fork

• Brakes: Tektro R559

• Groupset (sans brakes): Shimano 105 5500 (9s) series, triple crank

That's a nice build which reminds me of the 650bification of my (1989) Trek 1000 frame (Confreries instead of CdlVs, Ouzo Pro fork, 8s instead of 9s).   I've a few wheelsets with Zac19s, and they work really well with CdlVs and other wired tires, but a warning;  I have a devil of a time getting folding tires to properly seat in a Zac19, so if you swap out the CdlVs for something narrower (like the Confrerie, which is nominally 32mm but measures 33-34 on every rim I've put it in)  you might need to soap the tires and crank them up to a really high pressure to get them to properly seat.

-david parsons

[Eric Daume]

If you only have 2mm of lateral clearance, a wider rim will likely cause your tire to rub.

If you want some cheap yet supple tires, try the 35mm Pari Motos.

Eric

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[David Madina]

You kept the carbon fork yes? I’m really tempted to convert my Zurich but I’m worried about the carbon fork...

[satanas]

^ Are you worried about clearance, or that the fork might break?

If clearance, then IME 3mm should be enough at the front, assuming the wheel and tyre are straight, and the spokes aren't excessively loose. If there might be mud then it's marginal.

If breakage, I personally wouldn't worry about it unless the fork has been crashed hard and has gouges or deep scratches, or is otherwise suspect. Benjamin Franklin once said "...in this world nothing can be said to be certain, except death and taxes," so whilst that fork - or indeed any fork - *could* break, it's not (IME) likely to happen.

Later,
Stephen

[Alex I]

David Parsons - thanks for the folding tire warning, I'll be sure to tread carefully with these rims and tire beads. I had to soap the CDLVs and go ~60 psi to get them seated. First pass (no soap, no extra pressure) was a wobbly disaster (I knew enough to not ride it like that). I also rushed the first time and forgot to align the sidewall logos with the valve stems on the DS so had to of course get that remedied... 

Eric - thanks for the reminder on the PariMotos. I looked at them briefly but jumped on the CDLVs when I saw on sale, $35 shipped for the pair. If you've used them, do you find them flat prone? Maybe I'm getting my tires mixed up but thought I saw some complaints regarding flats. I don't mind a bit of stiffness/weight if I end up using this for some commuting. I guess I could keep a couple wheelsets too and keep these as my cheap wheels.

David Madina - I did keep the original carbon fork. I saw a few posts about those forks breaking, but it seemed to be someone who heard from someone at a bike shop or on a ride. My untrained eye went over it pretty detailed and it had a few paint scratches from bike racks etc. but that's all I saw. The knock test seemed fine but again, untrained ear. I know the damage can be on the inside and with a 20y old fork could just be catastrophic failure on a hard jolt. For forks, the '99 Zurich had the Icon Air Rail, and the BA has the Icon Carbon Classic. While I'm sure this one is heavier, I'm not sure that weight translates into extra strength. 

What frame size / steerer length do you have? Assuming it's also the 1" threaded, I have a red 2000 Lemond Tourmalet steel fork (Aero Cromoly http://www.vintage-trek.com/Trek-Fisher-Klein-Lemond/2000lemond.pdf) I got off eBay that said it was off a 55 (my size) but steerer looks a bit shorter (lesson learned, measure and ask for measurements, don't just click buy...). Bought it as potential insurance if I ever went back to 700c as it's got fender eyelets. I can check the tire clearance with the setup I have as it looked to be the same or less, and I can measure the steerer length. I'd be happy to pass it along for a few bucks if it would work for you.

Stephen - We're on the same wavelength regarding the carbon fork and worrying. 

[Eric Daume]

I didn’t have any flat concerns with the Park Motos, but I’ve heard of others reporting that concern. 

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[David Parsons]

On Monday, August 26, 2019 at 9:46:14 AM UTC-7, Eric Daume wrote:

I didn’t have any flat concerns with the Park Motos, but I’ve heard of others reporting that concern. 

I've found that when they start to wear down a bit they start picking up punctures like whoa.   Thus "flat magnets"

I can get 1000-1500 miles out of a pair before they start becoming flat magnets, and if I could get them to work tubeless I'd bet I could ride them for 4k miles before they wore down to the casing and became little porcupines.

-david parsons

[Scott Stulken]

I'm up to 4400 miles on my Pari-Motos, and they haven't really been "flat-magnets" for me, either.  Sure, I've had a couple of flats this year, but one of them was due to a tiny pokey thing that I didn't find right away after the previous flat, and another was due to a patch job that failed (I think I didn't clean the tube surface well enough before gluing).  So, mostly user error.  Overall, they've been really dependable tires that I don't hesitate to commute or do RAGBRAI on.

One caution I can add is that over the years, mine have expanded beyond their nominal 38mm.  The rear measures 40mm in places, which could pose a problem on that Lemond.

- Scott

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[David Parsons]

On Tuesday, August 27, 2019 at 6:57:31 PM UTC-7, Scott Stulken wrote:

I'm up to 4400 miles on my Pari-Motos, and they haven't really been "flat-magnets" for me

You have good luck (or better maintained streets than Portland) with your tires!

The only tires I've gotten over 4k miles on are Vittoria Randonneurs (the traditional 1" thick tread ones that are about as far away from _supple_ as you can get without huge tread blocks) but (a) not 650b, and (b) I'm too old to shove 2 extra pounds of rotating mass around.

-david parsons

[Justin Hughes]

I take it you've tried them tubeless without success? I set 42mm Pari Motos up really easily on Blunt SS rims with Scotch 8896 and Orange Seal. I didn't put a whole lot of miles on them before moving on to different tires, but no trouble while I used them. 

[Alex I]

Thanks everyone for the input, and info on the Parimotos.

Quick update: I noticed some Strava segment PRs/2s/3s on my first ride and commuting on the 650b bike. Found it odd as I was off the bike for a few weeks with a bruised rib, and I didn’t feel like I was really going fast. Anyone have similar conversion experience? Is the smoothness leading to comfort leading to more energy or something? I didn’t expect to get faster, especially with the bargain basement wheels/tires, I figured I’d be quite a bit slower on this bike compared to my 700c. Unintended side effect but one I’ll enjoy I guess!

[David Parsons]

On Tuesday, August 27, 2019 at 7:39:09 PM UTC-7, Justin Hughes wrote:

I take it you've tried them tubeless without success? I set 42mm Pari Motos up really easily on Blunt SS rims with Scotch 8896 and Orange Seal. I didn't put a whole lot of miles on them before moving on to different tires, but no trouble while I used them. 

Yes, I did, on A23s.  They Would Not Stay Inflated, despite me cranking the pressure up to ~70psi to shove the beads into the side channels.   (Stans Race goo, too, under the hope that would do the trick.   Very annoying.)

-david parsons

[Scott Stulken]

Good luck is definitely possible!  We don't have goathead thorns or a lot of broken glass where I live, which helps.  I think I'm just easy on tires.  Relatively low pressures (40 psi front, 50 psi rear) help keep the center from wearing through for a long time -- there is still faint evidence of the dotted tread it started with.  :^)

- Scott

[Mark in Beacon]

I think you'll find you not only go much faster with 650B conversions, but you'll also start to earn more at work, become more popular, and live quite a bit longer as well. You're a convert. So yeah, enjoy!

[Beatnik Glory]

Really nice build. I really like the old Lemond steel frames and their geometry.  I have a Zurich and a Poprad.  I am considering the Poprad for a build like yours.  Post some more pics.

[Kevin Smith]

Well done Alex!  Search the list for my conversion of a Marinoni Special if you need any fender ideas.

my 2 cents for your info requests:

1) Fenders - they are always worth it.  Given what I see - you'll likely need to resort to P-clamps.  There are some mounting devices that connect onto the quick release skewers you also might try to avoid P-Clamps.  For the Seat tube/fender connection - dig through ebay and buy a single lever downtube shifter mount (circa 1970s).  These little bands and related mounting bolt holes are great for holding a fender to the seat tube.

2) If you can spring for HED 650b rims - do it.  These are my favorites. 

3) I'm a fan of the Hutchinson 650b x 32 tires others mentions - they plump to 33-34 mm.  I have 5000km on a pair this year and got 1 flat - due to tube failure (no external penetration).

4) No rear rack!  Go Frontloader if you want to try something or some of the new rackless bags (like Ruthworks).  I like my front rando rack and bag on my Marinoni.  It keeps the bike lively and spirited.  A rear rack and load make bikes sluggish in my opinion

5) Dyno - I've used a Velogical dyno all this year, including through Paris-Brest-Paris, and it has worked perfectly. Not one problem.  You can move them between bikes if needed and disengage it to eliminate drag.  Its lighter and cheaper than a hub dyno.

Ride the hell out of that beauty.

On Sunday, August 25, 2019 at 6:02:53 AM UTC-7, Alex I wrote:

[Alex I]

Thanks for the thoughts and tips Kevin, that Marinoni Special is set up nice! And it looks like I'd need a lot of similar fender hardware, but I do have a CS bridge (can see in one of the pictures below). I'll keep looking at fenders and see if I can find something I like that might work.

Few more pictures.

I was going to use the original cables at the start but needed more housing for the Tektro brakes, and the front had no slack (picture below showing height difference). I had already bought the red cables so went ahead and did them all. Had some hiccups, and even though I cut the shift housing the same length, I now get overlap in the front, I guess the flexibility is different. At this point it shifts fine and I gave back the cable/housing cutters I borrowed, so... And had to order an extra brake cable after all the adjustments and re-attaching, I frayed the first one!

Shot from seller's Craigslist ad (conveniently not showing the paint chips or dented rim I ignored when checking it out, or the rust lurking inside...):

Bent/dented original rim:

Some paint scuffs on BB shell bottom:

This is an example of what I mean by touch up (nail polish) paint that looks good from 5-10' (I didn't have the patience for sanding and polishing - I did it, but not to the degree needed to really blend it):

Naval Jelly day (interior rust removal) - mostly the seat tube, some in BB shell:

Hole I drilled in the BB shell (and more bad touch-up) - original BB was very rusty, so was the cable guide screw, with some rust in shell:

The Tektro R559 requires more housing (I'm holding the 105 brake at the same bolt level) - so I had to learn to route some cables. And overlapping shift housing doesn't look so swell. Lots of poorly managed wires for the Flight Deck. And... somebody clean up that garage...

Current DS photo: I had ordered a replacement Reynolds 853 sticker, one of the previous owners had taken the old one off (who would do such a thing). They sent me another long Reynolds sticker so I put it on the DS chainstay too (usually the steel Lemonds have just one on the NDS CS). Well silly me put it half behind the chainring, doh! Old red chainstay protector was falling apart, so I wrapped it in some clear 3M film I had.

[Mark in Beacon]

What are your ultimate plans for this bike? As a test to see if you want to get a bike that was born as 650B? Do you have other bikes? I ask because unless you ride in the rain a lot or often carry more than can be stowed in a nice saddle bag, and/or have no other bike that you can use for these situations, my two cents would be don't bother with fenders and racks with this conversion. They are tricky enough on bikes with attachment points more or less designed for them. And if this is a gateway drug, you'll be moving it on at some point anyway.

I had a Zurich for a while, great bike. I'm currently doing a conversion on a 1988 Panasonic DX5000. Like your Lemond, it has no fender or rack eyelets. It  easily takes a 42 Gravel King SK in front but a bit tight in back so it's Pari Motos. Its got a cheap mismatched wheelset I stole from another bike, but I have a set of A23 rims in the stash I will probably build up for it this winter. Not a fan of the short brake track but they will work well toward the goal of a 30-70 mile lightweight day rider bike.

I see you've done some nice work to get this bike converted. Do yourself a favor and buy a good set of cable cutters. Today. I've had the same Park cutters for 30 years. It's the one tool I baby. I'm sure there are better ones out there, but this one has been just fine.

P.S. Love the yellow. I had a late 90s Ritchey in that color, and the Zurich was yellow plus blue. (Must have been a late 90s trend color.) But please, lose that drive side Reynolds sticker. It's bad enough having one on the NDS.

[Alex I]

Thanks for the insights and thoughts Mark! I actually was planning to pick up some Park Tool Cable/Housing cutters this weekend.

I have one other road bike (2005 Lemond Alpe D’Huez from the weird era of aluminum main triangle/ carbon stays). I don’t ride nearly as much as I would like, but I have young kids and try to prioritize my time with them. I ride for fun and for fitness, and try to commute twice a week (12mi each way with a few hills so pretty easy) and take a good weekend early morning ride. I am a fair weather commuter as I’m not setup for anything else, but I do live in the Denver metro so weather is pretty mild. I’ve had some close calls on ice from melt and refreeze on the MUP, usually near underpasses. So hoping the wider tire footprint helps there. I rode the 700c yesterday on my commute. Similar overall speeds, and noticeably less comfortable from roughness (got 25c conti 4-seasons so pretty rigid). I think I’ll be hopping on the 650b for most of my rides.

The idea on fenders and a rack or two was to make me less of a fair weather commuter. But for the next 3-4 years while the kids are still little and have early bedtimes, my bike riding will be limited. Every so often at work (this early summer included) I’m stuck working OT and am lucky to squeeze in that weekend ride. So I’ll plan to ride as is for a while then see what works and doesn’t (and what if anything on the bike setup keeps me from riding).

My plan is to keep the two bikes for now. If I get the project itch I’ll buy another steel bike and see what I can do with it. I actually saw a pretty cool 80s Bianchi frameset for sale... ha! I can get away with two working road bikes but I think for the sake of my marriage I’d get rid of one at that point, and maybe swap this steel BA back to 700c at that point. I’m fairly convinced on steel and 650b, the two things I wanted to evaluate with this project.