Help! Gravel/"Mtn" bike with light tubing and front suspension

[ViveLemond]

Hi,

Inspired by the latest BQ:

I've looked and what I want doesn't seem to exist: a steel frame from light non-oversized tubing with front suspension to take the RH 650b knobby tires for all-road and trail riding.

Does anyone know if such a bike, or have suggestions for a builder who would like to build one?

For reference, I love my current all-road bike, my Rawland Nordivenden (with 650b wheels) but I want more heft and suspension, and disc brakes, for exploring off road options.

Thanks team!

[spamhi...@gmail.com]

This doesn't exist because suspension and oversized tubing work well together. If you're going to be riding on rough terrain that requires suspension, the rest of the bike needs to be strong enough for it. Otherwise the fork will be w̶r̶i̶t̶i̶n̶g̶ ̶c̶h̶e̶c̶k̶s̶ Venmo'ing payments the frame can't cash.

On a spectrum you have your choice of:

- cheap gravel: 90s rigid all-terrain bike like a Trek 970/990 (some later models had 9/8" headtubes)

- Rivs with the long chainstays

- modern hardtail by Esker, Kona, Salsa

The main takeaway I personally got from that BQ article was mainly about embracing hardtails as gravel bikes, which is a common sentiment these days.

[randal...@gmail.com]

That BQ article was an advertisement for tires, not prescriptive for a fast style of bicycle. It's a fluff piece from fantasy land.

[John Hinton]

Specialized offers a number of bikes with suspension integrated into the steerer. There is also a suspension stem made by Redshift that could be bolted on to a Norco Search (steel, 650b, rack mounts) or other steel bike that would get you 90% of what you want, just without the BQ aesthetic.

Disc brakes are reported  to not work well with flexy forks.

John H

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[Dan Vee]

If anything that article seemed like they were saying they’d change the bars to drops/ something with more positions and change the fork to rigid no? 

Seemed more about using wider tires being the beneficial part of the equation.  

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[Alex Wetmore]

An old Bontrager is your best bet.  However they take 1" steerers which limits you to very few suspension fork choices.

Hahn Rossman fixed one up with a custom fork (not suspended) and small modifications (like disc mounts) as an All-Road bike and really liked it.  Alistair Spence inherited that bike and it's his daily rider now, he might have a picture to share.

Fox just came out with the Fox 32AX fork that you could have a custom bike built around.  It has a 427mm axle to crown (~30mm longer than most All-Road bikes) and might require a curved downtube to clear the big crown.  Personally I'd just leave it rigid and ride with nice tires, or find a carbon fiber hardtail mountain bike with the ride characteristics that you like and go completely in that direction.

-Alex

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From: 65...@googlegroups.com <65...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of ViveLemond <samkru...@gmail.com>
Sent: Monday, April 19, 2021 3:59 PM
To: 650b <65...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: [650B] Help! Gravel/"Mtn" bike with light tubing and front suspension

 

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[Ryan Witt]

On the subject of going beyond what a 650b bike can handle, I’ve recently been experimenting with the same Fleecer Ridge endurance tires on a mountain bike:

I agree with Jan’s assessment that they substantially change the game in terms of comfort and lack of compromise on the road. I typically would ride a good deal of pavement to get to gravel and Singletrack and being able to do this on one bike. I also think that a front suspension is not completely necessary for gravel if you have very big tires.

The issues with efficiency and aerodynamics are important, and I ended up trying out VO’s Crazy Bars to get a more forward position, and this worked out better than the Ridefarr bars that Jan tried. They take some experimenting though and usually require that you lengthen your stem.

This setup seems to work well for all but technical Singletrack, where I prefer to go back to our beloved 27.5” (since we’re in MTB land now) wheel size and plus tires, 27.5”x3.0” front and 27.5”x2.8” rear (still no suspension necessary):

I’ve also found this plus tire size works well for carrying heavy loads (such as groceries and children and bikepacking gear) up to 100lbs, whereas the Fleecer Ridge is fine but the wheels they are on are only 28h and more suitable for gravel adventures than super heavy loads.

I like the Fleecer Ridge so much that they are now finding a more permanent home on a drop-bar mountain bike, the Black Mountain La Cabra.

You know, after the last 6 months of experience, I would certainly buy and use the crap out of a 27.5”x2.8” or 3.0” plus tire version of the Fleecer Ridge. I think it would be great for long backcountry treks and trips into town as well as just my day-to-day use for hauling stuff and zipping out to occasional trails.

Just some thoughts from my experience!

Ryan

[daxo potato]

I've seen another posting with a similar request: for those of us who haven't memorized the Rene herse catalog, would be nice if posters mentioned the actual size and tread of the tyres being discussed.

yes, i could look up fleecer ridge, but i thought by posting instead i could save myself and probably others time on down the road.

cheers!

-dave who doesn't generally remember brand names in NY

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[Ryan Witt]

I've seen another posting with a similar request: for those of us who haven't memorized the Rene herse catalog, would be nice if posters mentioned the actual size and tread of the tyres being discussed.

yes, i could look up fleecer ridge, but i thought by posting instead i could save myself and probably others time on down the road.

cheers!

Fleecer Ridge is the 700x55 (29”x2.2”) knobby known as a bikepacking or “great divide” tire. In the case of this bike, I can only run 650b tires that measure 72mm (2.8”) or wider, lest the bottom bracket get too low, but this one does nicely.

This tire is notable since it is the first one that had the noise cancellation. I should mention that compared to the Juniper Ridge 650x48 knobby, the noise cancellation makes quite a difference, however it works.

[Eric Daume]

Didn't the last year of the Privateers come with a 1-1/8" head tube?

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[Ryan Witt]

> I agree with Jan’s assessment that they substantially change the game in terms of comfort and lack of compromise on the road. I typically would ride a good deal of pavement to get to gravel and Singletrack and being able to do this on one bike. I also think that a front suspension is not completely necessary for gravel if you have very big tires.

On re-reading the article, I realize I had attributed the article to Jan, but it was actually written by Nicholas Joly. My apologies to Nicholas!

The article still makes a great point though: for rides that really include rough sections, you may want to choose your tires for the roughest 20% rather than the average 80%.

And to Sam’s original question about wanting a bike that can server as a “super gravel bike” when we reach the limits of what 650x48 can do, I think we should have more of them.

I’m curious if anyone on the list rides a Rawland Ulv, which could be seen as such a “super gravel bike” with reportedly light tubing and wide clearances (~620x72?). I really wanted to build one up in the fall but was nervous ordering one from their website based on stories that it was abandoned.

There is an argument to be made that you need a beefier frame if you’re tackling extremely rocky sections, especially with drops where your frame may take harder hits, and my new La Cabra is an example of such a frame. Without a dropper post/dyno and with light components, I think I could get the build down from its current 27lbs to 25lbs or so, perhaps not much more than an Ulv would be.

Erroneously,
Ryan

[ViveLemond]

Thanks everyone for the thoughtful responses.

That La Cabra looks cool!

I actually have a 90's steel mountain bike that is pretty nice (Tange tubing, 26in wheels), a friend gave it to me. I'd want to bet a suspension fork with disc brakes to make it work, and with all that effort, might just make sense to buy a modern hardtail. It looks like a 1 1/8 stem, but I haven't measured it yet.

Where I live in N. California, we don't really have any smooth gravel roads, it's trails, and they are rough (or at least will have plenty of rough patches, the "80/20" principal being discussed. I don't like getting beat up as I ride, I have back and hand issues, and am not a youngster anymore. For me, nothing is worse than gripping the brakes down a bumpy trail with no suspension and cantilever brakes.

The reality is I think any decent mountain bike, even a dual suspension, would ride great with the new RH tires, but a snappy, light hardtail sounds ideal.

[Michael Mann]

I'm curious what the handling would be like on a light bike running 650b x 48 riding rough stuff and instead of traditional front suspension one ran a Redshift Shockstop suspension stem and seatpost? 

Mike M

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Michael Mann

[Ryan Witt]

I'm curious what the handling would be like on a light bike running 650b x 48 riding rough stuff and instead of traditional front suspension one ran a Redshift Shockstop suspension stem and seatpost? 

I actually started this journey out taking my Canti Lightning Bolt down rough gravel roads, washboard and singletrack. The bike is shod with 650x48 Juniper Ridge Extralights. The handling is fine! The supple fork and 1” steerer seem to do a pretty good job at dampening a lot of the chatter (even on washboard), but the bike really reaches its limits on singletrack with big rocks (blue/black trails) where pedal/chainring strike become a real issue. Standover can be an issue with the straight top tube, especially if you need to step off on the lower side of a trail.

It is certainly underbiking, and after 30-40 miles my hands become tired from gripping the brakes from the drops, even though they are well set up. Descending safely can mean getting out behind the saddle for descents, as you would on an old mtb.

Overall, I was surprised at how well my rando bike performed, which is a tribute to how well a supple fork works.

It was this experience that led me to try a mountain bike (The red Crust Scapegoat in pictures earlier). The main changes that I think made a difference in order of impact were 1) bigger tires, 2) dropper seatpost for steep descents (maybe this goes hand in hand with a sloping top tube, but I argue you could size down and still run an effective dropper), 3) hand position further back for descents and 4) disc brakes to reduce hand strain.

I still don’t think front suspension is necessary on a lot of trails / chunky gravel if you are running 27.5 plus tires (2.8-3.0ish), but the Scapegoat fork is also pretty supple for a mountain bike.

I’m curious to try the redshift stem on my La Cabra to see how much it adds to the 2.2” tires, and then maybe wheel swap and compare it against the 2.8”/3.0” tires.

[satanas]

Re suspension stems and posts: The Shockstop stem is IME surprisingly effective on bitumen or gravel, more so than 50mm tyres on a bike with a stiff fork. I've not used the Redshift post, but a Thudbuster ST was quite effective IME.

These are not going to give the same shock absorption as an enduro or trail bike with ~150mm travel(!), but on less than horrendously rough surfaces without huge drop offs they ought to increase rider comfort significantly. YMMV, as might your idea of what constitutes rough, or comfortable.

Those who've been riding for a while will remember when bikes had no suspension, and when 26x2.125" were wide tyres. Back in 1988 I bought a set of "super wide" Specialized Hardpack 2.2" tyres for a long tour (~5000km) and lived to tell the tale...

Later,

Stephen

[Ben Miller]

Sam, have you considered the bike that Nicholas is riding in the article? The Curve Downrock? 

Another thought is the Knolly Cache, which I immediately thought of when reading that article. Essentially a steel or titanium framed gravel bike that you can put a 40 mm travel suspension fork on: a suspension gravel bike!

I agree with everyone's sentiment that finding a truly lightweight, thinned tube, standard diameter frame is not practical, but there still seems like there is options out there.

Ben

[William Lindsay]

Sam

You might remember my Niner RLT9 which I sometimes run with a Lauf Grit fork.  The latest RLT9 steel is supposed to be pretty nice, and it has a tapered head tube so it takes that Lauf Grit.  If you end up with a frame with a tapered head tube, let me know and I'll let you borrow/buy my Lauf Grit fork.  It's hanging around separate for the time being.  I have not checked for absolute max tire width, but I had a 27.5 x 2.1" on there for a while and there was tons of room.  My older RLT9 aluminum can only take a skinny rear tire.  I was running 650B Rock and Road in the back.  

Bill Lindsay

El Cerrito, CA

On Monday, April 19, 2021 at 3:59:48 PM UTC-7 ViveLemond wrote:

[ViveLemond]

Thanks Bill, that's awesome. Good seeing Sophia the other day as well with Audrey.

Let's talk soon.

[Erik Jansen]

Something like the Norco Search XR or the Jamis Renegade offer decently high quality steel frames you could pair with one of the newer gravel specific suspension forks like the SR Suntour GVX or of course a Lauf fork? 

The Niner MCR comes with a fox fork, but I'm not sure the exact model, though apparently it only has clearance for 40mm tyres which is kind of disappointing. 

[jemima]

I've often considered doing an older lighter-weight steel mtb frame as a gravel dropbar. Considering the geo changes (lower bb / lower stack / reach / hta etc) with a suitable geo gravel bar like the Dixna cross Neither bars. 

Was looking at the old 27.5 Voodoo Bizango recently https://www.voodoocycles.com/bizango  

Supposedly weighs 2kg in the smaller sizes. 420mm chainstay on this discontinued model.  

Frame reach on the small would only be 20mm longer than my current gravel frame.  

Need to get the geo numbers into a bikecad site; see how things change when dropping the front end to suit a rigid 27.5 fork.  

Guessing the rear would clear at least a 2.5".