Surly Pack Rat!

[Igor Belopolsky]

http://surlybikes.com/bikes/pack_rat

[Greg Achtem]

Nice Kogswell.

On Fri, Dec 1, 2017 at 8:43 AM, Igor Belopolsky <belopol...@gmail.com> wrote:

http://surlybikes.com/bikes/pack_rat

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[Greg Achtem]

I'm not in the market mostly because I'm still using my Kogswell P/R, but more choice in 650B is a good thing. Interesting to note they went with rim brakes. 

On Fri, Dec 1, 2017 at 8:54 AM, Igor Belopolsky <belopol...@gmail.com> wrote:

Haha. I kinda like it.

I have zero want but at the same time I do want it

[Igor Belopolsky]

I think it's cool. I wish they would redo their geometry - their frames are so long in the top tube. Wish their headtubes were longer

[Alex Wetmore]

The 2018 Masi Special Rando is more exciting, it is actually a low trail bike:

https://masibikes.com/products/speciale-randonneur-650b-2018

I think this is the first mass produced low trail 650B bike in at least 20 years.  Fred pointed it out to me about a week ago.

alex

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From: 65...@googlegroups.com <65...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Greg Achtem <greg....@gmail.com>
Sent: Friday, December 1, 2017 8:01:31 AM
To: 650b
Subject: Re: [650B] Surly Pack Rat!

 

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[Greg Walton]

That’s no Kogswell, in fact that’s one of the weirdest frame geometry tables I’ve seen in a long time.  The 58 effective top tube size has a 74° head tube angle, 72° seat tube angle and a stack/reach of 547/408!  Compare that to the same size Elephant NFE at 607/400.  For additional context, the small (530 ett) has a stack of 564. 

The Bottom bracket drop is an inconceivable 55mm and the trail nets out at a neither here nor there 51mm. 

Greg

Seattle

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[Alex Wetmore]

It's the "old mountain bikes seem to work with front racks" approach, not the "let's test stuff and see what works best" approach.

This is basically a rigid mountain bike geometry.

alex

---

From: 65...@googlegroups.com <65...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Greg Walton <gwa...@gmail.com>
Sent: Friday, December 1, 2017 8:25:11 AM
To: Greg Achtem
Cc: Igor Belopolsky; 650b

Subject: Re: [650B] Surly Pack Rat!

[zybariver]

Clarification, I should’ve said the small “NFE” (530 ett) has a stack of 564 ( compared to 547 for this bike in size 58)

Spacers, anyone?

Greg
Seattle

[David Parsons]

On Friday, December 1, 2017 at 7:43:04 AM UTC-8, Igor Belopolsky wrote:

http://surlybikes.com/bikes/pack_rat

On the plus side, it's nice to see a criterion-geometried rando frame.

On the negative side, what the eff is that front rack? Is that byzantine scaffold that the thing is mounted on supposed to be a selling point, or just a way for them to cobble together a mount for ill-fitting commercial racks?

[Igor Belopolsky]

Yeah this is a huge bummer.

Seems like LHT modified would have been better?

[Ian A]

So is it low trail or not?!

Coolest thing, as Greg mentions, is that they went 650b rim. Considering Surly's relationship with Alex Rims, there maybe some more rim support for 650b brake track rims.

IanA

[Greg Achtem]

I admit I was being flippant with the Kogswell reference. Clicked on the link, saw a utilitarian Taiwanese frame with a front rack and my first impression was "Kogswell". I didn't put any more thought into it than that. 

I like that Masi.

[Philip Kim]

yep, i thought the same...

On Friday, December 1, 2017 at 11:25:19 AM UTC-5, zybariver wrote:

That’s no Kogswell, in fact that’s one of the weirdest frame geometry tables I’ve seen in a long time.  The 58 effective top tube size has a 74° head tube angle, 72° seat tube angle and a stack/reach of 547/408!  Compare that to the same size Elephant NFE at 607/400.  For additional context, the small (530 ett) has a stack of 564. 

The Bottom bracket drop is an inconceivable 55mm and the trail nets out at a neither here nor there 51mm. 

Greg

Seattle

Sent from mobile

On Dec 1, 2017, at 7:53 AM, Greg Achtem <greg....@gmail.com> wrote:

Nice Kogswell.

On Fri, Dec 1, 2017 at 8:43 AM, Igor Belopolsky <belopol...@gmail.com> wrote:

http://surlybikes.com/bikes/pack_rat

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[Kevin M]

Geometry looks so bad.  

[David Parsons]

On Friday, December 1, 2017 at 9:15:38 AM UTC-8, Kevin M wrote:

Geometry looks so bad.  

I've built a couple of machines with a geometry close to that (74.5 HTA/73 STA/45ish rake/65 BB drop) and used them for randonneuring.  They're comfortable & agile machines, and don't mind long rides with 20 pound loads in the front bag.    The only problem with the Surly frames are that they're too short (a problem that's shared by basically every other mass-produced frameset in the world.)

[rcnute]

I'll keep my three Kogswells...

Ryan

On Friday, December 1, 2017 at 7:53:38 AM UTC-8, Greg Achtem wrote:

Nice Kogswell.

On Fri, Dec 1, 2017 at 8:43 AM, Igor Belopolsky <belopol...@gmail.com> wrote:

http://surlybikes.com/bikes/pack_rat

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[Nhat Vu]

Here's the accompanying blog post: http://surlybikes.com/blog/post/introducing_the_pack_rat

Seems to me that they are hinting at trying to reduce wheel flop, while still avoiding low trail. The steep headtube angle and small rake combo is one approach, but then you'd run into toe overlap issues and would have to increase reach.

IMO, I'm glad someone decided to experiment with this combo.

Nhat

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[Justin Hughes]

Did you know: One Wheels Mfg 103-piece 1 1/8" spacer kit will allow an LBS to build approximately 3.5 Surly bikes for customers? Surly is now collaborating with Revelate on the custom frame bag for the Pack Rats. It has 11L capacity and mounts on top of the top tube. Everyone knows the guiding metric of frame design is standover. 

[Chris Cullum]

On Dec 1, 2017 08:38, "Alex Wetmore" <al...@phred.org> wrote:

It's the "old mountain bikes seem to work with front racks" approach, not the "let's test stuff and see what works best" approach.

This is basically a rigid mountain bike geometry.

Except the headtube angle is 3-4 degrees steeper 74°. It's a bizarre geometry spec. Looking at it looks like a hydrid of a track bike combined with a NORBA era MTB. Odd.

[Jeff Bertolet]

I think the upcoming VO Polyvalent will be a better option for most people.

-Vertical droupouts (with a replaceable hanger)

-Disc brakes

Only think I don't like is the threaded steerer.

[Igor Belopolsky]

Only that it's disc which some do not want, either, and still an issue with a short head tube but probably better 

[Alex Wetmore]

Oh, you are right.  I read the angles the other way around (74 STA, 72 HTA), which would be old rigid MTB territory.  It never even occured to me to do it the other way around.

I still the Masi is a much cooler bike.  There is finally a production bike that I can just point friends to.  Steel, 650B, low trail, fat tires, fenders.  They should just make a $2000 version with 105 components, a front rack, and dynohub.

alex

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From: 65...@googlegroups.com <65...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Chris Cullum <cullum...@gmail.com>
Sent: Friday, December 1, 2017 12:38:28 PM
To: Alex Wetmore
Cc: Greg Walton; Greg Achtem; Igor Belopolsky; 650b

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[Chris Cullum]

On Dec 1, 2017 12:38, "Chris Cullum" <cullum...@gmail.com> wrote:

On Dec 1, 2017 08:38, "Alex Wetmore" <al...@phred.org> wrote:

It's the "old mountain bikes seem to work with front racks" approach, not the "let's test stuff and see what works best" approach.

This is basically a rigid mountain bike geometry.

Except the headtube angle is 3-4 degrees steeper 74°. It's a bizarre geometry spec. Looking at it looks like a hydrid of a track bike combined with a NORBA era MTB. Odd.

I guess this kinda makes sense in Surly world: 

"My track bike works great with a massive front rack!" "Yeah dude, my old rigid MTB works great with a massive front rack too!" Pause, look at each other. "Wait dude, what if we combined those two? That'd be awesome!"

[Steve Palincsar]

Is this likely to ever be found in a bike shop?  I've got those very friends I'd like to point to it.

-- 
Steve Palincsar
Alexandria, Virginia 
USA

[rcnute]

I'm casually interested in the Masi but suspect the steerers are all going to be chopped on the completes...

Ryan (nursing a nice bruise on my stomach from mountain biking with an uncut steerer last weekend)

Seattle

Nice Kogswell.

http://surlybikes.com/bikes/pack_rat

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[David Parsons]

On Friday, December 1, 2017 at 12:51:24 PM UTC-8, Chris Cullum wrote:

I guess this kinda makes sense in Surly world: 

"My track bike works great with a massive front rack!" "Yeah dude, my old rigid MTB works great with a massive front rack too!" Pause, look at each other. "Wait dude, what if we combined those two? That'd be awesome!"

It's not a MTB geometry, except maybe for the high BB and fat tire sizing.     If not for the stout tubing and front rack, it's the sort of thing you'd see in a criterion.

[Chris Cullum]

The high bb, long top tube, short head tube, short chainstays, likely the tubing, are all reminiscent of Norba MTB. The MTB/track mashup was a joke but not that far off the mark. Crit bikes are an 80s thing. I think most everyone just rides road bikes for a criterium these days, although I'm sure that's not the only criterion.

--

[David Parsons]

On Friday, December 1, 2017 at 1:36:19 PM UTC-8, Chris Cullum wrote:

On Dec 1, 2017 13:21, "David Parsons" <grr.g...@gmail.com> wrote:

On Friday, December 1, 2017 at 12:51:24 PM UTC-8, Chris Cullum wrote:

I guess this kinda makes sense in Surly world: 

"My track bike works great with a massive front rack!" "Yeah dude, my old rigid MTB works great with a massive front rack too!" Pause, look at each other. "Wait dude, what if we combined those two? That'd be awesome!"

It's not a MTB geometry, except maybe for the high BB and fat tire sizing.     If not for the stout tubing and front rack, it's the sort of thing you'd see in a criterion.

The high bb, long top tube, short head tube, short chainstays, likely the tubing, are all reminiscent of Norba MTB.

    With a 74 degree HTA?

[Chris Cullum]

That's the track bike influence. You snipped my response. I thought my analogy was good.

[Scott Stulken]

Agreed.  More biodiversity helps our little scene.  Nice trick of design re-use, too:  by adjusting the HTA to get the desired trail figure, they can use the same 44mm offset forks they already put on everything else.  51mm isn't LOW trail, but it's pretty low for a mass-produced bike! 

But as with other Surlys, I'll think I want it, then find a couple things I don't like about the design.

- Scott

On Friday, December 1, 2017 at 10:01:36 AM UTC-6, Greg Achtem wrote:

... but more choice in 650B is a good thing. Interesting to note they went with rim brakes. 

On Fri, Dec 1, 2017 at 8:54 AM, Igor Belopolsky <belopol...@gmail.com> wrote:

Haha. I kinda like it.

I have zero want but at the same time I do want it

On Dec 1, 2017 10:53 AM, "Greg Achtem" <greg....@gmail.com> wrote:

Nice Kogswell.

On Fri, Dec 1, 2017 at 8:43 AM, Igor Belopolsky <belopol...@gmail.com> wrote:

http://surlybikes.com/bikes/pack_rat

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[Greg Walton]

I get that Surly wants to build frames to the lowest standover denominator, but on this one it actually penalizes longer legged riders because of the angles.  On most frames the head and seat tube angles converge or run parallel.  On this one, they diverge, so as you get the handlebars up where they need to be, the effective reach is increasing.  I'm 6'0 with a 780 saddle height and to get the bars 1.5" below the saddle, I'd need around a 100mm stack of spacers.  My trig isn't great, but I'm guessing I'd need around a 40 or 50mm stem.

Greg

Seattle

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[William Lindsay]

I saw that Masi in the window at Huckleberry in Berkeley. That doesn’t help you in DC, but it is present in a bike shop. Huckleberry is right next door to a Annapurna, Berkeley’s oldest bong-store. So there’s that, too. Multiple shopping opportunities on the same trip! (so to speak)

Bill Lindsay
El Cerrito Ca

[John Hawrylak]

The change from a more standard 73° HTA to the Pack Rat 74° HTA, improved FLOP by 2mm for a 650Bx42 tire, 

74°, 44mm rake = 51mm trail,  14mm Flop

73°, 44mm rake = 57mm trail,  16mm Flop

Did they "feel" the 2mm change in FLOP??   51 vs 57mm trail would not be a problem sine they stated they did not target a trail value

FWIT, 51mm trail is the same as the "higher" trial fork BQ tested on the Kogswell P/R in 2006.  It was the least desirable of the 3 trails the P/R had (25, 40, 50)

John Hawrylak

Woodstown NJ

[David Parsons]

On Saturday, December 2, 2017 at 10:03:28 AM UTC-8, John Hawrylak wrote:

The change from a more standard 73° HTA to the Pack Rat 74° HTA, improved FLOP by 2mm for a 650Bx42 tire, 

74°, 44mm rake = 51mm trail,  14mm Flop

73°, 44mm rake = 57mm trail,  16mm Flop

Did they "feel" the 2mm change in FLOP??   51 vs 57mm trail would not be a problem sine they stated they did not target a trail value

I'd suspect they felt the change in trail; it's subtle but when I switch between a 73/45 and 74.5/45 front end the latter feels a bit more slippery (it still holds a line but more slowly, so it feels like it's wandering when it's not) to me for the first 3-4 miles before I get used to it again. 

[Igor Belopolsky]

Anyone end up buying one? From what I saw, these sold out and were OOS for a while. Surly says they are back in stock.

[Eric Daume]

I’m surprised they were selling at all. It seemed to get a very negative initial reaction—a fattish tire bike with rim brakes?

Eric

On Tuesday, July 3, 2018, Igor Belopolsky <belopol...@gmail.com> wrote:

Anyone end up buying one? From what I saw, these sold out and were OOS for a while. Surly says they are back in stock.

--

[Igor Belopolsky]

No fatter than many other bikes that people are riding with rim brakes.

My initial negative reaction was the low stack/short headtube and others chimed in about the geometry.

[Robert Gardner]

I bought one predominantly for carrying lots of stuff around comfortably in my very pot-holled city (DC). 

Generally, I find the bike rides smooth -- even with 30-40 pounds on the front rack traveling 20-30 miles from DC to VA at a time. That much I like -- not so much play in the steering and it is still responsive. 

Yes, it's heavy -- it's a Surly. No, the geometry hasn't been a problem for me going on longer rides. Yes, I'd buy it again -- but tbh I've got some work to do on her first (I'd like to go tubeless, add a rear rack for carrying more stuff, etc.). 

It's a big, heavy bike that is very sturdy and still feels peppy enough to move through traffic and get up a decent hill on a gravel ride. So, I'm into it. 

On Tue, Jul 3, 2018 at 9:10 AM, Igor Belopolsky <belopol...@gmail.com> wrote:

No fatter than many other bikes that people are riding with rim brakes.

My initial negative reaction was the low stack/short headtube and others chimed in about the geometry.

--

[Daniel MacPherson]

Someone did a decent review of the bike on reddit. Here is the link: https://www.reddit.com/r/Surlybikefans/comments/8nbk7p/reviewing_my_pack_rat/

I haven’t seen much online. Surly doesnt seem to be promoting it much.

[Brad]

Not quite.  74 degree head angle with 44 mm of fork offset aka rake comes up with trial of 50 and flop 15.

More clunky mid trail with an overly stiff frame and fork.

They still fon't get, but they will use the marketting buzz and by misdeading people will under cut the true benefits of a low trail fork.

On Friday, December 1, 2017 at 10:53:38 AM UTC-5, Greg Achtem wrote:

Nice Kogswell.

On Fri, Dec 1, 2017 at 8:43 AM, Igor Belopolsky <belopol...@gmail.com> wrote:

http://surlybikes.com/bikes/pack_rat

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[Derek Z]

Curious, what’s the main rub (pun!) against fat-ish tires and rim brakes? Is it simply that one has to deflate the tire a bit to remove the wheel?
Derek Z

[Daniel MacPherson]

My guess is the limited options for 650b rims that are designed for fattish tires and support rim brakes. I can think of only a few.

[Derek Z]

Yeah, I get that. I’m in que for a 650b semi-fatty canti brake frameset and had to think long and hard about compromises and priorities.
Derek Z

[Daniel MacPherson]

 Here is another review: http://www.pathlesspedaled.com/2018/07/10/review-surly-pack-rat/

[Eric Daume]

Why is it I'll spend five minutes reading a written review, but I won't spend five minutes watching a video review?

Eric

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[Igor Belopolsky]

I dont like people 'telling' me stuff

On Tuesday, July 10, 2018 at 8:48:28 PM UTC-4, Eric Daume wrote:

Why is it I'll spend five minutes reading a written review, but I won't spend five minutes watching a video review?

Eric

On Tue, Jul 10, 2018 at 7:01 PM, Daniel MacPherson <macphe...@gmail.com> wrote:

 Here is another review: http://www.pathlesspedaled.com/2018/07/10/review-surly-pack-rat/

On Friday, December 1, 2017 at 7:43:04 AM UTC-8, Igor Belopolsky wrote:

http://surlybikes.com/bikes/pack_rat

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[jack loudon]

Because it's hard to skip over the boring stuff, so it takes longer than reading.  I don't like them either.

On Tuesday, July 10, 2018 at 5:48:28 PM UTC-7, Eric Daume wrote:

Why is it I'll spend five minutes reading a written review, but I won't spend five minutes watching a video review?

Eric

On Tue, Jul 10, 2018 at 7:01 PM, Daniel MacPherson <macphe...@gmail.com> wrote:

 Here is another review: http://www.pathlesspedaled.com/2018/07/10/review-surly-pack-rat/

On Friday, December 1, 2017 at 7:43:04 AM UTC-8, Igor Belopolsky wrote:

http://surlybikes.com/bikes/pack_rat

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[satanas]

+1 In five or ten minutes of video there might be 30 seconds of useful info - if you're lucky. When people write reviews they usually think about them beforehand, and edit them before release. With videos there's a lot of stream of (impaired) consciousness and bro-speak; I just want the data, not the waffling and self-congratulation. (Their friends might think they're cool but I don't care.)

Later,
Stephen