Low trail Midnight Special good idea?

[Parkaboy]

Thinking about a new drop bar bike. Tried and liked the Midnight Special but it looks like these forks are in stock finally. Thoughts? I assume they'll be available from the Walmart online.

http://www.somafab.com/archives/product/champs-elysees-low-trail-disc-touring-fork

[CMR]

I am not personally into low trail, and really not into it for anything touching dirt. I much prefer mid-high-trail for fatter gravel bikes which is where I'd put the Surly, so I'd keep it as-is. BUT the Midnight Special has a very cool sharper headtube angle than many others, so its a much better candidate than almost anything on the market, depending on your size. If you like low trail, go for it!

On Sunday, April 29, 2018 at 9:53:09 PM UTC-7, Parkaboy wrote:

Thinking about a new drop bar bike. Tried and liked the Midnight Special but it looks like these forks are in stock finally. Thoughts? I assume they'll be available from the Walmart online.

http://www.somafab.com/archives/product/champs-elysees-low-trail-disc-touring-fork

[CMR]

Also, you'd probably want to go thru-axle which the Soma is not

On Sunday, April 29, 2018 at 9:53:09 PM UTC-7, Parkaboy wrote:

[satanas]

Why ruin a perfectly good bike???

[Alex Wetmore]

Oh come on, we all get your anti-low-trail bias and you don't need to post these sort of smart ass remarks in every thread where low trail comes up.

I appreciate your view, just think there are more constructive ways to share it.

alex

---

From: 65...@googlegroups.com <65...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of satanas <nsc.e...@gmail.com>
Sent: Monday, April 30, 2018 12:02:50 AM
To: 650b
Subject: [650B] Low trail Midnight Special good idea?

 

Why ruin a perfectly good bike???

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "650b" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to 650b+uns...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to 65...@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/650b.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

[Stephen Poole]

It seems to me that along with low trail, folks tend to want relatively flexible frames. Since Surlys are usually overbuilt I'd be more inclined to start elsewhere if I wanted to arrive at a BQ-approved result. (I've owned a Troll and a Cross Check before; "plany" they are not.)

I'll admit my comment was a bit flippant, but I figured someone would say it sooner or later...  ;-)

[satanas]

PS: The Midnight Special fork uses a flat mount caliper, and the Soma fork is ISO, so a new caliper would be needed, plus a chrome lugged fork might look a bit weird on a painted TIG welded frame, and IIRC the parts aren't silver, etc.

[Igor Belopolsky]

Too bad this is sold out

https://rideendpoint.com/collections/build-parts/products/hunter-gatherer-fork

[Igor Belopolsky]

IMO there seem to be other bike with what you want already so why go changing things? atmo

[satanas]

^ Like the new BMC Road+. Mike is taking deposits...

[CMR]

BMC isn't low trail though, if that's what OP wants

[Stephen Poole]

It's pretty low trail, IIRC 72° HTA & 60mm offset.

On Tue, 1 May 2018, 12:09 CMR <cmiller...@gmail.com> wrote:

BMC isn't low trail though, if that's what OP wants

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to a topic in the Google Groups "650b" group.
To unsubscribe from this topic, visit https://groups.google.com/d/topic/650b/Mz9hO8NHUVE/unsubscribe.
To unsubscribe from this group and all its topics, send an email to 650b+uns...@googlegroups.com.

[Randall Daniels]

I looked at the Midnight Special frame for low-trail conversion earlier this week. The fork a-t-c between the two is almost exactly the same. The jim g trail calc gives a good number and everything else looks fine. Might be worth a shot, word is that the Soma low-trail fork is more compliant than the stock Surly fork. 

I went with a Fog Cutter frame myself since I like Soma's tubing better than Surly's. Like preferring whoppers over big macs I guess. 

[Parkaboy]

I mostly really hate the unicrown fork. The Soma fork is basically identical to the original grand randonneur and wolverine forks so we know more or less how its going to feel in terms of stiffness and flex. It's not a big deal to use a flat mount to IS adapter for the frame and I don't really consider the axle a thru axle. They just made the frame compatible with the majority of pre-built wheels, which makes sense. I guess there are other frames that would work, but I've never broken a Surly and I plan to ride single track and such so it seems like a safe choice.

[Igor Belopolsky]

My favorite unicrown forks are the steve potts and also the chris kelly ones

[Stephen Poole]

The old 26" Ritchey Logic unicrown forks were pretty light, and they're quite comfortable too; I wonder how they'd go as a disc fork, with a thru axle. If the NFE forks are similarly flexible I can see why they went that way. Unicrown forks look normal to me; straight blades, not so much unless they're carbon or sprung.

--

[jack loudon]

Personally, I think that disc forks should err on the rigid side.   On some earlier disc forks, the left leg bent backwards with heavy riders/loads, which (IRRC) is why the NFE went to a stiffer fork design.  Even if this doesn't happen, the left leg will flex more than the right leg under hard braking, affecting steering precision.  Some builders are using heavier tubing in the left leg to counteract this, but this could lead to unequal flex between legs when not braking....   I would make my disc fork legs plenty rigid and look elsewhere (tires) for flexibility. 

Jack

Seattle

[Alex Wetmore]

"On some earlier disc forks, the left leg bent backwards with heavy riders/loads, which (IRRC) is why the NFE went to a stiffer fork design"

That isn't why the NFE went to a different design, no NFE forks ever bent backwards.  Some developed fatigue cracks where the tab met the fork blade.  They've done a great job of taking care of their customers and few of those original forks are still in use.

alex

---

From: 65...@googlegroups.com <65...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of jack loudon <jwlo...@gmail.com>
Sent: Friday, May 4, 2018 9:00:01 AM
To: 650b
Subject: Re: [650B] Re: Low trail Midnight Special good idea?

 

You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "650b" group.

To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to 650b+uns...@googlegroups.com.

[jack loudon]

Thanks for clarifying, and I'm sorry for spreading misinformation.  I didn't intend to malign Elephant as they promptly fixed the problem with a re-designed fork.   I knew that the bend in some disc forks (apparently not NFE) was straightened by the force of the brake, and I wrongly heard that they had this problem.  The cracking at the NFE tab/fork joint does indicate the very high stress in this area, which highlights the difficulty in designing a flexible steel disc fork.  

Jack

[Cary Weitzman]

jack loudon wrote:
> the left leg will flex more than the right leg under hard braking,
> affecting steering precision.

Seriously though, and not to pick on you personally, but you raise a
point that's been on my mind for a while. It's become a bit tiresome to
hear this particular F.U.D. talking point out of the mouths of shop
rats, almost like a mantra. (That and the idea that loaded touring isn't
possible on any bike that isn't Surly levels of overbuilt, but that's
another thread).

How "precise" does ones's steering really need to be? I can see
situations, like steep descents in rock gardens, where you really want
that front tire to go in EXACTLY one spot. but for other riding situations?

Cary
PTBO.ON.CA

[jack loudon]

For me, it's not about steering precision per se, but about throwing me off kilter momentarily. This only happens on one particular bike when I'm braking moderately hard into a bumpy corner.  I think the bike is going one direction but suddenly it's going slightly off course.  It's disconcerting.  I suddenly have to snap out of my 'one with the bike' feeling and steer the damn thing.   I admit it's not a huge deal, and I've mostly gotten used to it.  But when I get on a bike with 'steering precision' it feels much better.  Not sure what the party line is, but this is my take on it.

Jack   

[Stephen Poole]

On Sat, 5 May 2018, 06:14 Cary Weitzman <weitz...@gmail.com> wrote:

How "precise" does ones's steering really need to be? I can see 
situations, like steep descents in rock gardens, where you really want 
that front tire to go in EXACTLY one spot. but for other riding situations?

Cary
PTBO.ON.CA

^ Most of the time, not very precise. However, some bikes I've ridden have descended and gone where pointed particularly well:

1. 1970s/1989s Alan frames with round fork blades and perfect frame and fork alignment. These were very precise *and* very comfortable IME

2. Early 90s Specialized Allez Epic (bonded carbon) with Direct Drive alu fork - Bicycling's Tarantula tests found this fork to be very rigid, and the ride was a bit hard at times, but it descended extremely well. With a first generation Look carbon fork the ride improved, but steering suffered, and needed more anticipation/countersteering to go where pointed

3. Klein Attitude with a humongous and totally rigid alu fork. Great for trialsy type stuff and high speed stability, but absolutely brutal ride on washboards; hands went numb really quickly

4. Current Specialized Sequoia with its very rigid carbon fork. This is so far the most stable thing I've ever ridden on fast dirt descents, including one spot that's felt sketchy even with FS in the past; the FS bike didn't have thru axles though. There was a lot of shock transmitted with the stock 42mm tyres on rough descents (MTB terrain) and the ride was brutal on rocky singletrack, but a swap to 47mm tyres made things much better

My theory is that perfect alignment really matters for stability, and that (laterally) stiff forks really help with steering precision. If the fork is super stiff fore/aft then the ride will be harsher than with something more compliant, but if the tyres are big enough it might not matter too much, most of the time at least.

On a smoothish surface and with wide tyres at low psi, a stiff fork is okay, but on rough surfaces or with narrow tyres it can be brutally uncomfortable. Back in the early 1990s, Cannondale sold road bikes with alu "Sub One" (pound) forks that had 1 1/4" steerers. These were probably the hardest riding bike I've ever been on; even a quick test ride around the block was punishing.  :-(

It's all about getting the balance right.

Later,

Stephen

[Randall Daniels]

I much prefer a flexible fork with asymmetrical leg flex under braking than a much more stout fork that has no asymmetrical leg flex. Especially since I'm a much more dirt focused rider where front brake use hard enough to cause the fork leg issue is pretty much only done when I have the bike straight up and down and as such is not an issue.