Rando Crankset?

[Tom Norton]

Just did a search for the above and it seems that the only result nis the Velo Orange item.
Wondering what other choices are out there?

[Robert Bunting]

The Rene Herse is beautiful and pricey but it'll do like 24-53 rings and will likely outlive you. That's how I justified mine!

[Igor Belopolsky]

I think the correct answer is whatever satisfies the gearing you need.

[Mark Bulgier]

Yeah I think it's safe to say there is no such thing as a rando-specific crankset.  Just pick one that gives the gear range you like, and maybe with secondary characteristics like low "Q" or light weight if those things matter to you.

Well, TA did make a crankset called Randonneur, but it was just a Pro 5-vis variant where the inner chainring bolts on at a 116 mm BCD, 36t minimum. Otherwise identical to the Cyclotouriste.  The Randonneur bolt pattern is so rare that it's likely most people on this list have never seen one.  Most people who call themselves randonneurs, if they use a Pro 5-vis crank, will use the Cyclotouriste bolt pattern – maybe 100-to-1 over the so-called Randonneur pattern.

I used to have a Randonneur pattern on one bike, but then I got old and fat and a 36t wasn't small enough anymore.

P.S. in case you don't know, the Velo-Orange "Grand Cru 50.4 BCD Crankset" is a clone of a TA Pro 5-vis.  

"5-vis" is French for "5-pin", which is a reference to the 50.4 mm bolt circle.  In olden times, there were like a hundred brands of crankset that used the 50.4 mm BCD, and they were all referred to as 5-pin.  As opposed to Campy and other larger-BCD patterns, which were called 5-arm.

Mark Bulgier

Seattle

[Rick Shelton, Woodstock GA]

Sugino, Sun XCD, Compass (Rene Herse), Velo Orange are just a few “wide range” doubles available that come in a polished finish.

Rick Shelton
Woodstock, GA

[satanas]

Actual criteria would be helpful if the OP is hoping for recommendations - not just "rando." [shrugs]

For instance:
1. desired length
2. chainring size(s) wanted
3. BB shell type it needs to fit
4. is low Q desired or to be avoided?
5. colour
6. price
7. material
8. front indexing compatibility needed, y/n
9. # of rear cogs (especially if #8 = y)
10 chainline needed
11. power meter compatibility

FWIW: I've seen people ride randonnees, PBP included, on just about any crankset imaginable (except 1x), from MTB triples to normal or compact road cranks to track cranks to Powercams with 60x44 rings. We could guess, but that's not very efficient...

Later,
Stephen

[Matthew J]

TA Carmina has a compact variation now.  Great crankset.  Nice looking. I have one with the TA bash guard outside on my 650b singlespeed. 

[Alex Wetmore]

The TA Carmina isn't that compact though, it uses 110mm chainrings which limits you to a 33t inner.

For modern options I like the Sugino OX-601d and have them on two bikes.  It is a 110/74 double, where the outer ring is 110 and the inner is 74.  If you want to get outer rings with shift ramps you are limited to TA Zephyr, Sugino, and IRD rings.  I run one at 42/28 and one at 44/30 and they both work great.

IRD is now making a knockoff of the Sugino, but I have no experience with it.  They also make a 94mm BCD double.

A very nice option is the Rene Herse crankset from Compass.

For classic options I love the Ritchey Logic compact, which is a 94mm BCD double.  It uses a 98mm to 103mm square taper bottom bracket.  Finding one and the required BB will probably cost more than the Sugino OX-601d unless you get lucky, this is a highly sought after crank.

A cheap classic option is a Stronglight or SR 86mm BCD crank.  These were fairly common in the early 80s and show up used.  Rings are a little rare and won't have shifting ramps or be setup for 9/10sp.  They were usually sold as triples, but work well as compact doubles.  

alex

---

From: 65...@googlegroups.com <65...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Matthew J <matth...@gmail.com>
Sent: Thursday, May 3, 2018 6:40:52 AM
To: 650b
Subject: [650B] Re: Rando Crankset?

 

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[Stephen Poole]

Regular Carminas with swappable spiders can be fitted with 94bcd, for rings down to 29T; smaller means a triple spider and higher Q.

If you like the idea of oval rings, Absolute Black offer 48x32 or 46x30 sets to fit current Shimano 110 bcd 4-bolt road cranks. These use special bolts and aren't cheap.

FWIW, Praxis Works sell 48x32 sets for 110 bcd 5-arm road cranks. They say these will only fit their cranks, but I suspect a little filing of the spider and use of a modern chain would fix that with many other cranks.

FSA make a range of "Adventure" cranksets with 48x32 or 46x30 rings, but the rings are specific to various cranks and none use standard BCDs  :-(

Some modern road cranks have swappable spiders too, like Cannondale (30mm axles, won't fit BSA shells), or some SRAM (for standard or BB30/PF30 shells). A variety of spiders can be had from Cannondale and SRAM, and also from third party suppliers like North Shore Billet and BOR Germany, plus others for 1x. For Cannondale there are 135, 130, 110, 94, 120/80 or 104/64 double spiders, plus 1x spiders and direct mount rings; for SRAM there are 130, 110, 120/80, 104/64, plus 1x spiders and direct mount rings. There may be other stuff out there too.

There are quite a few options, but few are cheap, readily available or silver. Even fewer have low Q, decent ankle clearance, smaller than 46x30T rings or power meter compatibility.

Later,

Stephen

[Matthew Joly]

If you needed to go smaller TA does offer a Zephyr K middle ring which is set up for a 74 nn third ring.  Not quite as elegant as a double.  

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Matthew Joly

Chicago, IL 

[Rick F]

If I had the budget Rene Herse would my top choice.  Since I didn't have the budget I went with the SunXCD with a 50.4 BCD and have been happy with it.  It takes either the SunXCD rings (I have 46/30) or TA rings. 

Another less traditional looking option would be the White Industries VBC.  No personal experience but have heard nothing but good things about it. 

Rick F in Bedford, MA

[J L]

I like the 50.4 bcd style cranks but often have trouble with runout. Is there a special method others use to keep the rings parallel to each other and the bottom bracket wall?

Jason
SF

[Scott Stulken]

I can fill that gap!  A rando acquaintance of mine rode the 2015 season (including PBP) on a 1x11 setup.  I want to say it was a 42x11-32 or thereabouts, because I did some mental math on a ride together and realized he had pretty much the same range as my 2x7 setup.  Except his setup had no duplicates and all he had to do was shift up and down.  I found myself envying it pretty quickly.

- Scott

On Wednesday, May 2, 2018 at 11:43:05 PM UTC-5, satanas wrote:

[Eric Keller]

On Thu, May 3, 2018 at 1:41 PM, Scott Stulken <thermio...@gmail.com> wrote:

I can fill that gap!  A rando acquaintance of mine rode the 2015 season (including PBP) on a 1x11 setup.  I want to say it was a 42x11-32 or thereabouts, because I did some mental math on a ride together and realized he had pretty much the same range as my 2x7 setup.  Except his setup had no duplicates and all he had to do was shift up and down.  I found myself envying it pretty quickly.

I have had opportunity to hate my front derailleur on a longer brevet, so I have considered 1x.  I would need a much bigger cassette than a 32.  Right now my low gear is 34 front 36 rear, and I wish I had lower.  OTOH, I'm pretty sure 42-11 is too high for most randonneuring. I got into my 46-11 on last weekend's 400km brevet, but not very much. As Jan says, might as well coast.

Eric Keller

Boalsburg, Pennsylvania

[Scott Stulken]

Yeah, it might have been a 40T, now that I think about it.  When I was doing my weight-weenie-ing project, I considered 1x to save weight as much as to simplify riding.  1x7 ends up somewhat notchy if you want to have any real range, so I'd have to move up to at least 9-speed to be happy again.  If I get bored enough for another project, I'll be sure to let the group know.  :^D

- Scott

[Stephen Poole]

I think the ultimate solution for brevets may be Di2 with 2x11 and SyncroShift. That way you only need to deal with one shifter but still get decent range and gaps. Of course it's not cheap, and in the unlikely event something went wrong the chances of repairs or spares are near zero, which is why I'll be riding mechanical 2x11 next year at PBP.

It'll be sort of 1x11 plus bailout, with 42x29 rings and a 12-25 cassette, the plan being to use all the rear cogs with the 42, and the larger cogs on hills with the 29. If I'm feeling especially strong (haha) or weak then 11-28 is another option, though gears much over 90" aren't useful unless there's a strong tailwind, or long, fast descents; I'd only ever use 46x11 in the Alps or similar, but coasting works fine. On steep crappy roads (like in the UK), 90" is usually plenty, and IME no bottom gear is too low; 24x32 barely made it up some climbs last time.  8-(

Later,

Stephen

[nm matt]

stephen,
will you be using some 94 bcd crankset? if so, which one? i use a set of topline cranks, as well as a pair of suntour xc pro's on two bikes, both with 44-29 rings. they work great with 10sp drivetrains, but as they were intended for 8 or 9 speed drivetrains i fear 11sp might be to much of a stretch.

best,
matt

[Stephen Poole]

No, not 94 bcd, that would have been too easy. (rolls eyes)

So, instead I acquired a pre-2007 Cannondale Hollowgram SI crankset via eBay, and a BOR Germany 104/64 double spider and JCNC Cobweb rings ex-Deutschland. The rings come in various matched sets, including 42x29. The rings are 9/10 speed, but should be fine with 11 too. 42x27 is also supposed to be matched, and I may use that for touring.

The older SI cranks are silver, Q is 141mm, and various power meter retrofit options exist. As well as being low Q, they're light, stiff and have excellent ankle clearance. However, they're not easy to get and require a BB30, PF30 or T47 BB shell, not a problem with a custom frame; mine will be PF30.

There are 94 bcd Cannondale spiders out there,  intended for 2x9 MTBs, but as far as I can determine these all pre-date PF30 and won't clear PF30 cups; newer spiders and lockrings have been modified to do so.

Also, while the Cobweb rings look cool, the BOR spider arms are wider than usual and will require a little filing for the outer ring to fit due to the way the "webs" are angled; shouldn't be a big deal. KCNC also offer "Blade" rings in the same sizes which are a little cheaper and should fit straight on, however IMHO they're quite ugly.  :-(

This hasn't been simple(!), but I'm confident it should give the best result. I hope. I'll report back once the bike is built, but don't hold your breath.

Later,

Stephen

[Kieran J]

Hey Matt,

Those XC Pros - those are the 94BCD "MD" version right? On those arms, are the granny ring bolt receivers removeable washers or are they built into the spider?

KJ

[nm matt]

they are built into the spider. about 3 minutes with an angle grinder and a 40 grit flap disc and they are gone.

[Sven-Olof Johansson]

I’ve been running the Velo Orange Grand Cru cranks with 46/30 chainrings, but now I kind of want to try a 1x12 setup on my next bike:

https://youtu.be/hkKdid7CzLs

/s-o

[Stephen Poole]

In case anyone is wondering, the Sunrace 11-50 12 speed cassette goes straight onto a Shimano-compatible freehub body and shifts very well. It's not ultralight, but it's a much simpler and cheaper solution than a new freehub body - or wheel - and a $RAM 10-50 cassette.

There are only flat bar 12 speed shifters though - apart from the new Campag stuff which isn't giing to handle a 50T cog - so with drop bars one would need to do some modifying.

Later,

Stephen

[jack.k...@gmail.com]

Were there different variants of the SunTour XC-Pro MD crankset? I have a NOS one in my hand now and it definitely uses spacers to mount the inner chainring, there is no shelf cast into the spider to space the granny ring inboard. No grinding or other metal surgery required to use these as a 94mm BCD double.

Cheers,

-Jack K.

[Kieran J]

Thanks Jack. I had seen the same thing on Google images. Gonna keep an eye out for some 175mm arms and 44/29 rings.

KJ

[njh...@gmail.com]

On Friday, 4 May 2018 03:40:34 UTC+10, J L wrote:

I like the 50.4 bcd style cranks but often have trouble with runout. Is there a special method others use to keep the rings parallel to each other and the bottom bracket wall?

I've been using TA, Stronglight, and Sugino PX 50.4 BCD cranks for about 40 years, and I've never had a problem with runout on the chainrings. Two things to bear in mind:

1. The TA bolts for fastening chainring to crank are not very robust - if overtightened the heads of the female part of the bolts will crack. If you've managed to do this to some of them, then it's quite possible to get runout on the chainrings. If using the TA bolts, I never do them very tight and always use Loctite to ensure they don't loosen. The bolts that Velo-Orange sell for the same pattern cranks are much more robust.
2. If you're using large chainrings, they can flex a bit because the BCD is so small. That's why TA used top sell a criterium adapter when using the cranks for racing with large chainrings. I can remember using one of these when I first started racing in the 1970s: 49-52 chainrings with a five speed 13-21 freewheel. Half-step racing gearing.

Nick

[Peter Adler]

Truer words are seldom spoken. 50.4 riders develop a sixth sense for when you're just about to snap the head off the teeny TA hex bolt; even so, you sometimes miscalculate and end up with a 7mm bolt stub trapped in an 8mm sleeve nut, with no way to get the stub out to salvage the nut. At moments of desperation, I've resorted to M6 machine screws + Nylock nuts to act as brute-force chainring bolts, just to limp home. If you keep your eyes open, you'll eventually build up a stash of the OEM parts.

Definitely use Loctite. The original wave-washer locking mechanism doesn't really prevent loosening, and when the bolt works itself loose, the washer will immediately disappear anyway.

Unfortunately, VO only the 50.4 nut assembly in a double-ring kit. I regularly begged/harangued the original owner to have triple-ring sets made. It would be pretty easy: The TA triple is distinguished from the double only by longer sleeved nuts and an extra set of spacers; both sets use the same shortish bolts, although the triple could probably be ruggedized with longer bolts. Every response I got from VO was the same: "We will consider additional products based on market demand". I considered that to be a passive-aggressive "go pound salt, you reactionary troll". Since VO is clearly set up around wider-spaced frames + cassettes + compact doubles, it appeared that making a component just to aid people keeping antiques functional was of limited interest.

Still, it would be worth having. Perhaps I'll take a swing at the current owners, and see if I can get them to buy in. I assume that the fastener manufacturer in Taiwan could make the nuts in any length a customer will pay for.

Peter "nearly exclusively 50.4, no matter how inconvenient" Adler

Berkeley, CA/USA

[Justin, Oakland]

Paul makes an adapter for SRAM -> drop bars.

-J

[Stephen Poole]

On Sun, 6 May 2018, 11:23 <njh...@gmail.com> wrote:

On Friday, 4 May 2018 03:40:34 UTC+10, J L wrote:

I like the 50.4 bcd style cranks but often have trouble with runout. Is there a special method others use to keep the rings parallel to each other and the bottom bracket wall?

1. The TA bolts for fastening chainring to crank are not very robust - if overtightened the heads of the female part of the bolts will crack. If you've managed to do this to some of them, then it's quite possible to get runout on the chainrings. If using the TA bolts, I never do them very tight and always use Loctite to ensure they don't loosen. The bolts that Velo-Orange sell for the same pattern cranks are much more robust.

The TA outer to crank screws were/are truly miserable IME, but even when they didn't crack or snap the rings tended to flex more under load than say Campag NR, not surprising really. Campag also used to true their crank spiders one at a time by hand - I've seen photos - so they started out straighter before any flex occurred. The TA outer to inner bolts also had quite a high rate of breakage and/or loss compared with others, and this also allowed the rings to flex or bend; it wasn't unusual to see bikes come in for service with one or two bolts missing. The cranks and rings were fine, but IMHO the fasteners were a nightmare.

I got so fed up with these annoyances that I sold my 50.4 cranks in the early 1980s, and have been on 5-arm cranks ever since. In all the time since I've had just one alu screw lose it's head, but the steel ones have so far been totally reliable.

As to making the rings straight, that's not easy as they're made from quite a strong, hard alloy. It's very hard to bend them accurately(!), but something like a rotor truing fork (or more likely forks plural) would be better than using a mallet, large screwdriver(s), or adjustable wrenches. It pays not to be too fussy...

Later,

Stephen

[Mark Bulgier]

Peter Adler wrote:

> If you keep your eyes open, you'll eventually build up a stash of the OEM parts.

I just bought a set of TA triple bolts, nuts, spacers & washers from Boulder Bicycles.  They still show them as in-stock but the price went up from when I bought them last week -- were $32 now $46 (ouch!)  I think they raise their prices when they start getting low on the vintage items -- I guess they never know when they're going to find another cache of them. (They should edit the description, still says "we've put them on sale" which seems a bit cruel at $46...)

See here: 

http://boulderbicycle.bike/Crank-stuff/TA-cyclotourist-chainrings-amp/ta-chainring-bolts-for-triple-cyclotourist-pro-5-vis-older-stock-special-purchase.html

These are the old ones that everyone says are so weak.  I can't say I recall having much trouble with them breaking or loosening, but the reports from multiple Bobs can't be wrong, I must just be lucky.

I put them on my early MTBs, trials and polo bikes, touring bikes and commuters.  I currently have them on the two bikes that I ride the most, but they're not high mileage -- a commuter and a utility/cargo bike.

I also used to work in a busy custom shop that put them on maybe 2/3 of all the bikes that went out the door, approx. 1980-'85, lots of them tandems which presumably are a tougher test of component reliability than single bikes.

I agree the TA bolts are not as reliable as Campy 10 mm bolts in steel, but I'd peg them as more reliable than a lot of the aftermarket superlight alloy 10 mm bolts I have used, such as FB, Cobra, Gipiemme &c.

I also agree (in general) that using fairly low torque and weak loctite is a sensible way to go for many people, but I always just used grease myself.  They don't loosen and they don't snap, but I'll admit my mileage is not as high as a lot of people here -- I'm no randonneur. YMMV, literally!

-Mark

[satanas]

Ouch! That's expensive, almost as much as a cheap FSA or Shimano crankset.

Other than TA, I've only had problems with alu chainring bolts. I can't recall the brand but they were Italian, and the heads came off the bolts; the nuts were fine.

Later,
Stephen (who doubts whether bicycle and general engineering terminology agree on what these things are called)

[Evan Estern]

I use the White Industries VBC.  It shifts very nicely, even with the 46/28 rings I sometimes use.  My set still functions like new (or better) even after many thousands of miles.  Many combinations and sizes available.  They've been utterly reliable--I never think about them.  Cons:  Probably not the narrowest Q factor out there, if that matters to you.  I've heard that they are heavy.  Not exactly traditional looking, more like tastefully modern.  You're supposed to use a special tool to install/remove the crank arm from the large ring (installing on the bottom bracket spindle is traditional ISO sq taper).  You have to remove the drive side crank and chain ring to change rings. 

 I was trying to decide between the VBCs and Rene Herse and I found the Whites heavily on sale so that's what I went with.  

[John Clay]

I've been in the 2x5/6/7 world for ever but recently I started looking into the 1x world. Assuming that individual cogs can be mixed pretty much as desired, then something like this looks very attractive to me. I don't need anything beyond an 80" top gear but even with it this gives small steps in the high speed range (where the cubic relationship of power required for a given speed predominates) and a 22" low! The steps in the low gears are large but in that speed range it's easily managed with reasonable variation of cadence. And if touring in serious hills then a 32 front ring gives 64"/18". I might move into this new world after all!

	40
13	80.0
7.7 %
14	74.3
7.1 %
15	69.3
6.7 %
16	65.0
6.3 %
17	61.2
11.8 %
19	54.7
15.8 %
22	47.3
18.2 %
26	40.0
23.1 %
32	32.5
18.8 %
38	27.4
21.1 %
46	22.6

John Clay
Tallahassee, FL

[Stephen Poole]

On Sat, 12 May 2018, 23:37 John Clay <nice.c...@gmail.com> wrote:

I've been in the 2x5/6/7 world for ever but recently I started looking into the 1x world. Assuming that individual cogs can be mixed pretty much as desired...then something like this looks very attractive to me:  

(=>13-46 cassette with very non standard cog spacing)

That's not really possible with either 1) 11 speed cassettes, or 2) very big cogs.

There are a few reasons why not:

1. Individual 11 speed cogs are very hard to come by, and many are combined on alu spiders, typically the bottom 3-6 cogs; it varies depending on brand, model, etc. Look at the exploded diagrams at si.shimano.com to see what I mean about spiders...

2. In theory, Miche offer custom 11 speed road cassettes starting with 11-12, 12-13, 13-14, 14-15 or 16-18T pairs, and going up to 32T. In practice, individual Miche 11 cogs are almost unobtainable, apart from one or two possible sources in Europe; complete cassettes can be had more easily. All cogs are separate, but the innermost cog is dished, not flat, and limited sizes are available, 32T maximum

2. Ultegra spare cogs could be ordered from bike24.com a while back, but there's no 13T top gear, only 11, 12 or 14, plus many of the cogs are on spiders and cannot realistically be separated, again 32T max., maybe 34T if they now have HG-800 spares.

3. Shimano and Sunrace MTB cassettes do offer 46T cogs, but the largest 3 or so are on a spider(s) and cannot really be separated, in part because they extend further inboard over the spokes with MTB or 8/9/10 speed road hubs. Spares for MTB cassettes don't seem to be available, 11T cogs excepted

4. Some companies (i.e., Wolftooth, many others) offer dished bottom gear conversion cogs for 11 speed MTB cassettes in various sizes from 45-50T, designed to match up with specific cassettes, so there are some options, however these are not cheap(!), and some (i.e. E13) are widely held to shift poorly

5. 38T cogs exist only from Action Tec (9 speed, flat, Ti, pricy) and MTB Tools (steel, dished, bendy)

It might be possible to come up with something similar (Shimano's 11-46 cassettes finish with a 32-37-46 spider), and the rest of the cogs are theoretically possible from Miche. This would be expensive though, and might well shift fairly poorly apart from the bottom three cogs.

13-46 gives marginally less range than 11-40, available as stock from Shimano, which will shift properly. If you really want super close ratios at the top plus huge jumps at the bottom, that will mean a custom cassette, fairly easily possible with < 11 cogs in (much) smaller sizes. It's very difficult to get a wide range *and* close ratios in one cassette, partly because most people care about either one or the other, and partly because the number of cogs isn't infinite. It's sort of possible with 11-32/36 SRAM 11 cassettes, but not with anything bigger. Custom cassettes are getting more difficult all the time too, mostly for sensible reasons having to do with shift quality, alu freehub body preservation, etc. It's complicated.

IMHO, it's much easier and cheaper to stick with a stock 11 speed cassette for 1x, or else with fewer cogs and 2x if you must have custom ratios. YMMV.

Later,

Stephen (who's not a fan of 1x unless huge tyres mandate it offroad)

[Stephen Poole]

PS: Bear in mind too that there are both road & MTB freehub bodies for 11 speed. These include Shimano/SRAM 11 road, Shimano 11 MTB (same as Shimano/SRAM 8/9/10), SRAM XD & Campagnolo.

Shimano 11 MTB cassettes, HG-800/700 road cassettes (available in 11-34 only), and Sunrace 11-36 will fit on 8/9/10/MTB 11 freehub bodies, and on SRAMano road 11 with a supplied spacer, however other road 11 cassettes *will not* fit on 8/9/10/MTB bodies.

XD and Campag are totally different.

As Mick & Keef said:

"No, you can't always get what you want
You can't always get what you want
You can't always get what you want
But if you try sometime you find
You get what you need"

[John Clay]

Well that sucks, and I appreciate the info, but I'll try it anyway. What good is  having a shop if you can't take a crack at this sort of thing?

--

John