Low-trail, disk-ready, "planing" frame for Rat Trap Pass tires

[Nick Bull]

I know this is "off-topic" for a 650B forum, but I don't know where else to post :-)  So I'm thinking of this instead as a "large-volume-tire, all-road" forum ...

Current conversion project to end-up with a fast all-road bike:
Rat Trap Pass tires: Check!
Converted from MTB bars to road bars with bar-ends and mechanical-disk-compatible Tektro levers: Check!
Cannondale F600 frame that is stiff as bar of solid steel and hurts my legs because it doesn't plane: Ugh!

Other than getting on a long waiting list for a National Forest Explorer, are there any low-trail, disk-ready frames that plane nicely and will take Rat Trap Pass tires (and ideally are in about the $750 or so price range)? 

Soma Wolverine seems too-high trail, as does VO Pass Hunter Disk (which is 700C so may not be able to take RTP tires).

VO Piolet may be optimized for larger diameter tires and so the BB may be too low on Rat Trap Pass?

Rawland Ulv? Not available yet and maybe only available as a full bike for awhile?

???

Thanks for any thoughts you have.  Sorry if this is a repeat question but I don't see another thread that answers it.

Nick

[David Banzer]

More than $750, but this checks off everything you listed (I think) - https://www.crustbikes.com/products/the-romanceur-presale
Looks like the largest size is sold out.
David
Chicago

[satanas]

Curse you David! :-)

Checked out Crust's site and may have to buy a Scapegoat frameset. I've always thought something like that ought to be possible, but there appear to be none out there, or indeed fat bikes of any kind here in Oz.

The rando frame couldn't possibly fit acceptably, so I'm safe on that one...

An interesting company indeed, with some serious experience behind them. Goat's blog has some interesting tales too - check out "Hubris" for a sample.

Part 1: http://wandergoat.com/india/hubris/

Part 2:
http://wandergoat.com/india/hubris-part-2/

Later,
Stephen

[Ian A]

Awesome looking bike, but not sure how the Crust will plane. The tubing spec is 853 oversize in either 969 or 858 depending on size.

Considering the famous budget planing bikes, Rawland Stag was 858 standard with a 747 standard Top tube and the rSogn was 858 standard throughout. The largest rSogn was 969 standard

Ian A/Canada

[Jon Doyle]

Low-trail, disc-braked, flexy-tubed, wide-tired…and cheap?

[Chris Cullum]

On Jul 20, 2016 1:12 PM, "Jon Doyle" <jondoyl...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Low-trail, disc-braked, flexy-tubed, wide-tired…and cheap?
>

The white whale.

> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "650b" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to 650b+uns...@googlegroups.com.
> To post to this group, send email to 65...@googlegroups.com.
> Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/650b.
> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

[Nick Bull]

I prefer the word "inexpensive".

If it isn't already available somewhere I haven't thought of looking, I'm guessing that in the fairly-near future, what I'm looking for will be an off-the-shelf item at Soma or VO or somewhere at about the price point I'm looking for, in the same way as a Soma GR provides an off-the-shelf decent and inexpensive classic rando bike.

Thanks for advice so far, I'll have to take a look at the Crust link later, for some reason it won't open in my work browser.

Nick

[Steve Palincsar]

On 07/20/2016 04:26 PM, Chris Cullum wrote:

On Jul 20, 2016 1:12 PM, "Jon Doyle" <jondoyl...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Low-trail, disc-braked, flexy-tubed, wide-tired…and cheap?
>
The white whale.

Perhaps you might check with Firefly, after Jan returns that test bike he took to Mexico...

[Fred Blasdel]

On Wed, Jul 20, 2016 at 1:32 PM, Steve Palincsar <pali...@his.com> wrote:

Perhaps you might check with Firefly, after Jan returns that test bike he took to Mexico...

Their most modest frame is $4200, and almost all of their bikes are sold complete for *double* that 

[Steve Palincsar]

That's for a new one.  Think of the depreciation - especially after Jan gets done kicking the crap out of it!    ;-)

Actually, having known about Firefly on the VSalon forum, I'd always thought of it as the Gucci of Ti frame builders, very expensive, very high fashion, top of the heap whereas Seven seemed a much more whitebread middle of the road sort of outfit.  I was very surprised to see Firefly frames go for less than Seven. 

[Stephen Poole]

That's the first time I've ever seen anyone suggest Seven are ordinary(!). I guess they might've sold lot more frames than many Ti builders over the years, but I'd be happy to own one, or a Hampsten, or . . .

Ti has always been super rare, super expensive and hard to come by here in Oz. As far as I know Baum is our only Ti builder and last time I looked they made Seven look cheap.

Later,
Stephen

[Nick Bull]

Coming back down to earth ... if I delete "low-trail" from my list of wants, then it seems like the Soma Wolverine would fit the bill.  If it turns out that I really like riding the Rat Trap Pass on gravel roads, then I can always upgrade later and the Wolverine could become a commute bike.

Thanks for all your comments, everyone!

Nick

[Steve Palincsar]

It's that from the ones posted and the discussion thereof over on
VSalon, I got the distinct impression that Firefly was well described by
Kreayshawn's lyrics:

Gucci Gucci, Louis Louis, Fendi Fendi, Prada
Basic bitches wear that shit so I don't even bother

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6WJFjXtHcy4

On 07/23/2016 07:49 AM, Stephen Poole wrote:
>
> That's the first time I've ever seen anyone suggest Seven are
> ordinary(!). I guess they might've sold lot more frames than many Ti
> builders over the years, but I'd be happy to own one, or a Hampsten,
> or . . .
>
> Ti has always been super rare, super expensive and hard to come by
> here in Oz. As far as I know Baum is our only Ti builder and last time
> I looked they made Seven look cheap.
>
>

Since I've seen one every time I'm down in the basement for the past 25
years, I have to admit, a Ti bicycle is pretty ordinary as far as I am
concerned!

[Steve Palincsar]

Would Wolverine + custom fork do the trick?

[Stephen Lim]

I believe that Soma are working on a low trail disc fork. There was a post about it a little while back on this group

[WMdeR]

Jan rides pretty light in my experience.Wear items take a beating....

Best,

Will
William M deRosset
Fort Collins CO

[Nicholas Bull]

Good to know, thanks. 

[desmond...@gmail.com]

Having been to the Seven factory ( as well as many others , an a northwestern) there is nothing middle level about Seven in any shape or form. Unless your just talking about window dressing an fluff, then Seven doesn't do well. If your speaking of high quality made with a Goal in mind an backed by the company for life , then Seven stands out among the best.

Sent from my iPhone

--

[Steve Palincsar]

What I said was "whitebread middle of the road" as opposed to high fashion Gucci.  That's a far cry from "middle level."

However, I definitely do have a bone to pick with Seven, about the way it does its decals.  I have friends who have them.  Within months the decals were scratched off and totally shot to hell.  I myself have a Ti frame, that I've owned for 25 years that looks better than their frames did after 6 months.  It's shameful.   Mine was clear-coated over the Ti and over the decals by the builder, Tom Kellogg, and aside from a few spots on the chain stays that got messed up when I dropped the chain, and which I've fixed with clear nail polish, it looks now as it did a quarter of a century ago.  One of those friends tells me Seven would happily replace her decals and clear coat her frame, for $1500.  You have got to be kidding - fifteen hundred bucks for a set of decals and clear coat? 

[satanas]

Seems a tad excessive. I'd be more likely to get replacement stickers made by a local signwriter; something like 666 perhaps?

Since it looks like I'll possiby be in the USA and Canada next February for a couple of Worldloppet events I could, in theory, check out Ti frames online in the meantime. and take delivery over there, but the window is small, and could not afford to be broken.

Later,
Stephen

[Steve Palincsar]

At least the lead time with custom Ti is quite short, compared to that
for the 1-man operations, typically in the range of six weeks to two
months vs years in the queue.

[Stephen Poole]

Yeah, that's one reason Seven came to mind, plus collecting there would save a fortune in freight. I suspect that the only way I'll ever get to try Ti is to buy one.  :-(

So Steve, do you really think Ti rides any differently to steel, all else being equal? There's a lot of hyperbole out there.

Later,
Stephen

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to a topic in the Google Groups "650b" group.
To unsubscribe from this topic, visit https://groups.google.com/d/topic/650b/KxxXGTqPNTQ/unsubscribe.
To unsubscribe from this group and all its topics, send an email to 650b+uns...@googlegroups.com.

[Steve Palincsar]

On 07/24/2016 06:38 AM, Stephen Poole wrote:
>
> Yeah, that's one reason Seven came to mind, plus collecting there
> would save a fortune in freight. I suspect that the only way I'll ever
> get to try Ti is to buy one. :-(
>
> So Steve, do you really think Ti rides any differently to steel, all
> else being equal? There's a lot of hyperbole out there.
>
>

Depends entirely on how it's made. My Spectrum is a 1991, built back
before there was bike-specific Ti, out of tubing made for aircraft and
nuclear power plants. It's as flexible as a 7/4/7 frame. These days,
you can get it as stiff as you like, ranging from quite flexible to
massively stiff.

[Stephen Poole]

One reason I was thinking about Seven and Ti was in the hope it could be ALAN-flexible at the BB and equally comfy but still reliable, so thanks for the feedback. More thought is required...

[Mick]

Fitz cycles built me a bike as you describe.  I believe his full custom tig welded frames start at $1375.  He delivered mine in 4 months also.   I cannot say enough positives about the whole purchase experience.

http://www.fitzcyclez.com/  If you click on the frames tab my frame is at the top of the page.  It was only a $225 to upgrade to filet brazed

Mick

On Wednesday, July 20, 2016 at 10:45:21 AM UTC-4, Nick Bull wrote:

[Tamaso Johnson]

Doesn't Seven have a pretty large hand in manufacturing Spectrum's Ti bikes? AFAIK TK does the paint so that's probably a distinguishing factor, but I'm not sure how much else is...

[Justin August]

Isn't there that "design your own bike get it manufactured in Taiwan" Titanium bike guy? I wonder if you could tweak things to your specs via him. I could have been more vague but eh...

-Justin

[Eric Daume]

Carverbikes does that, though the frames are made in China, not Taiwan.

You can also contact some Chinese manufacturers directly. Seems to run $1000~$1500.

On Sun, Jul 24, 2016 at 11:03 AM, Justin August <justin...@icloud.com> wrote:

Isn't there that "design your own bike get it manufactured in Taiwan" Titanium bike guy? I wonder if you could tweak things to your specs via him. I could have been more vague but eh...

-Justin

--

You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "650b" group.

To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to 650b+uns...@googlegroups.com.

[Steve Palincsar]

I'm not sure who is currently making the frames for Spectrum, it could
be Seven today, but back in 1991 it was Merlin; and yes TK does the
paint. There were several other distinguishing factors in the Merlin
era -- two pass welding that results in joints that look almost like
fillet brazing and custom geometry immediately come to mind. Seven now
does custom geometry, but I don't think they do two-pass welding.

[Steve Palincsar]

I am absolutely certain you could get that with Ti if that is what you
wanted. See p. 3 of
http://sevencycles.com/order/Seven-Custom-Kit-Domestic-2016.2.pdf the
custom order form and note the questions on how would you like your
seven to ride. Mine's certainly both flexible (although I can't say
"Alan-flexible," never having been on one I can certainly say at least
as flexible as my George Longstaff) and reliable - a quarter century old
and still just fine.

[Stephen Poole]

Thanks Steve. I'll email Seven and ask about the ordering process; it might not be straightforward, given I'd need to order from Oz and collect in the USA. I'm also slightly put off by the "must go through a dealer" thing as the more people involved the more chance of miscommunication. (And no way is anyone other than myself ever going to build up one of my bikes.) Maybe I'm just being paranoid though.  :-)

[Steve Palincsar]

On 07/25/2016 12:46 AM, Stephen Poole wrote:
>
> Thanks Steve. I'll email Seven and ask about the ordering process; it
> might not be straightforward, given I'd need to order from Oz and
> collect in the USA. I'm also slightly put off by the "must go through
> a dealer" thing as the more people involved the more chance of
> miscommunication. (And no way is anyone other than myself ever going
> to build up one of my bikes.) Maybe I'm just being paranoid though. :-)
>

That might not apply to someone from a country without Seven dealers.
Here
http://sevencycles.com/order/Seven-Custom-Kit-International-2016.1.pdf
is the form for international orders. I should have looked at that
earlier, but I was focused only on the section regarding frame
stiffness, and stopped at the first place I found that contained it.

[Stephen Poole]

Well, I tried to email Seven but their contact form appears to be broken, and there's no visible email address. I looked at the two forms you linked to and no difference jumps out - maybe they just like to have a different header so they can guess whether there's a lower chance of being sued!

All the component things on the form assume parts will be supplied by Seven or else "sourced by retailer," neither of which would happen in my case, but I guess I'm a  outlier. I also wonder if non-US orders attract premium pricing.

As it happens, the sole Seven dealer in Oz is in Sydney, so I'll see if I can get talk to him tomorrow. He has a bit of a reputation with bike shops, mainly because he knows more about fit than 99+% of them, which can complicate their sales process. It might still end up that the easiest solution is to do things via email with someone in the US.

Later,
Stephen

[HillDancer]

 A contribution to thread drift; two alternative fabricators that provide custom products in titanium and steel.

http://ticycles.com/

http://www.quiringcycles.net/

Off the shelf titanium with >60mm 26in tire-width rear stay clearance.

http://www.rencycles.com/bikes/omen

The Omen has a high BB, so plenty of room to create low trail with short A/C & high offset fork.

I am not a fan of flexing BB and/or frame, and/or low trail.

[Steve Palincsar]

Try this, obtained from the latest PDF of their brochure: 

tel: (617) 923-7774
email: in...@sevencycles.com
125 Walnut Street
Watertown, MA, USA

[Stephen Poole]

Thanks Steve, will try emailing them now.

[Justin Hughes]

The Wolverine was designed around 42-622 tires. With Switchback Hills there is massive clearance WITH fenders. The Switchback Hills I had on my Wolverine measured 51.5mm on Blunt SS rims. For all intents and purposes I don't think there is really any difference in the RTP and SBH other than overall circumference. To me, it makes zero sense to use RTPs on a Wolverine. You're just negatively altering the geometry with no benefit as compared to running SBHs. 

[Justin Hughes]

+1 on Fitz. Crazy good value. Nuts. 

[Stephen Poole]

On 27 Jul 2016 2:40 am, "Justin Hughes" <justin...@me.com> wrote:
>(snip)

> For all intents and purposes I don't think there is really any difference in the RTP and SBH other than overall circumference.

^ Assuming I read it correctly, Jan said exactly this in one of his recent blogs. So given the RTP and SBH are the same in cross section, it makes sense to choose between them based on clearance, geometry, and of course whether your rim brakes will work if you don't have discs.

Depending on what use the bike is going to see, a lower or higher BB might be useful, and I see no disadvantage to having a choice.  :-)

Later,
Stephen (who hates high BBs, but is thinking a 47-ish 650b knobby tyre might be very useful for those with centrepull brakes)

[Justin Hughes]

That's exactly what I'm saying. Not sure why you'd want to drop the BB height approximately 23mm when you could get the same effect by dropping it by only 11mm. There is, of course, a choice. I'm simply saying using RTPs over SBHs on a Wolverine is not a good one. No one is talking about rim brakes in this thread, not sure why you bring that up. 

[Stephen Poole]

On 27 Jul 2016 6:34 am, "Justin Hughes" <justin...@me.com> wrote:
>
> (snippity snip)

No one is talking about rim brakes in this thread, not sure why you bring that up.

^ Because I forgot this was a disc-only thread, and admit that to my eternal shame I still have some bikes with rim brakes; no doubt the death squads will be coming around to get me any time now.

Later,
Stephen - no wait, I meant Schmidt, Johan Schmidt...

[Justin Hughes]

I too have plenty of rim brake bikes. I'm not sure why people get so bent out of shape about disc versus rim brakes. It's only a bicycle. 

Justin

[Steve Palincsar]

Well, we do take bicycles rather seriously around here.

[Guy Washburn]

Jan says in his review of the Elephant NFE that he thought on pavement the SBH are a bit slow turning even with the 36mm trail on that bike. Several folks have said they prefer the handling of the RTP on that bike. With a mid to long trail bike like the Wolverine I'm thinking it could be kind of sluggish...

[Harry Watson]

I've ridden both RTP and SBH extensively (admittedly on 26" and 650b frames respectively), and aside from the RTPs feeling slightly more nimble (could be all in my head though), there is very little difference in ride quality rolling speed etc, even on really rough stuff.

[Nick Bull]

I guess it was pretty stupid of Jan Heine to come out with those RTP tires, right?

I bought the RTP in part because of the handling tests that showed that for 650B, the handling deteriorates for tires above 42mm or so.  Also, I don't own any bikes that I can run an SBH on, but I do own a bike that I can run RTP.  And I'm somewhat curious about doing more riding on gravel, but my experience so far is that if you hit loose, freshly-poured gravel, even on 42's the tires can dig in abruptly, in a fairly scary way.  So I thought that maybe 54's would float better over gravel while still giving up little on roads.

FWIW, my fastest commute to work this year (10 miles) is 34m41s on my Rambouillet with Compass Stampede Pass 700x32's.  My second fastest was today 35m38s on my Cannondale Furio MTB with RTP tires.  My intention was to take it kind of easy today since I rode hard on Sunday and Monday and you're really supposed to alternate hard training with easy days.  But I was feeling good so I ended up riding hard despite the heat wave.  The RTP tires feel pretty fast, and they sure smooth out the blasted 1/4 mile of wooden bridge by Roosevelt Island.

Nick

[Philip Kim]

Ive got the RTPs and SBHs, both have their uses. RTPs are more nimble yet cush, SBH are stable but not cush. I think RTPs are either best tires supple tires I've ridden.

[Jason Marshall]

Any good new supple tires offerings available for 27"?

[Steven Frederick]

Seriously! B-)

If we can't obsess over bikey minutia here, where, oh where can we?

Steve

[Nick Bull]

Doesn't have to be a disc-only thread.  It also occurred to me that if I give up the "disc" side of the equation, then that brings other frames into play.  But I don't have any 26" rim-brake wheels so that's why I was looking at disc to start with.

[Justin Hughes]

Ha. Yeah, my JT tandem was asking me the same thing the other day.