My neo-retro '73 Raleigh Competition 650b

[Robert Aguirre]

Have wanted to do a conversion for a while, and here it is.  Meant for our fast group rides in double pace lines.  Acquired a Raleigh Competition with Capella lugs and added the following:

Modern touches: 

TA Carmina crankset with Sugino 46/36 rings

Specialized stem and ITM bars

Ritchey saddle

Shimano 10 speed drive train

Hand built wheels: Dura Ace 28h hubs; Pacenti rims; Sapim spokes

Retro touches:

OMAS TI bottom bracket

Mafac Raid brakes (modern shoes)

TA bottle cage

Rides great.  Love this bike!

https://www.flickr.com/photos/90388130@N00/albums/72157680266041323

Robert

[Mark Bulgier]

Sweet!  That era Comp is so perfect for that.  I love that fork crown with a fat tire -- never looked right with skinny tubulars!

What size tires are those, and how did the chainstay clearance turn out?

In the right-side portrait shot, it looks like the right-rear brake pad is upside down. Optical illusion or do I win some kind of prize? ;)

Mark Bulgier
Seattle

[Harald Kliems]

Very nice! Thanks for sharing.

 Harald.

[Robert Aguirre]

Hi Mark. 650b x 42 Compass tires. Clearance is fine on chainstay with wheels pulled all the way back in the dropout. That dropout is for a Huret derailleur so I had to fashion an accessory stop to fit the Shimano derailleur.

[guy4...@gmail.com]

So many questions, as I am considering updating my '73 Comp as well.
*  How did you reset the rear triangle to take the presumably wider hub.  Original overlock is 120mm.  You're now at 135?
* Raids look to be at extreme limits with the rear pads at bottom of slots and angled slightly downward.  Did you consider an alternate brakeset?
*  Did you convert from the original tubulars, or from another side. (I converted to 27" in mid-70s as 700c all but unknown at the time.) 
* Did you consider a move (remaining with) to 700c? Would seem to be a simpler conversion, but with not so wide tires.

My 73 Comp was upgraded in the mid/late 70s with:
* Original Phil hubs and bottom bracket;
* TA Cyclotourist triple 49-46-26 (now needs to be lowered for older legs, will need new crankset as TA no longer offers odd-toothed chainwheels for the Cylcotourist).
* SunTour Ultra-6 freewheel 14-28.
* Huret Duopar rear der.
* SunTour Superb Pro front der (now on my Hilson) have reverted to the original Huret Jubalie front der!  It actually works just fine, thanks.

Cheers!

On Wednesday, May 3, 2017 at 8:12:16 PM UTC-7, Robert Aguirre wrote:

[Evan Estern]

How is the ride? 

[Steve Frey]

That's a really beautiful bike! It looks like it was meant to be built that way. The black rims, chainrings, bar tape, cable housing all work nicely with the frame. I'm sure it rides like a dream.

[Ryan Watson]

I recently sold a similar frame to a list member who was planning on a 650B conversion. I test fit some wheels and it was pretty much ideal! 

On May 4, 2017, at 10:33 AM, Steve Frey <steveja...@gmail.com> wrote:

That's a really beautiful bike! It looks like it was meant to be built that way. The black rims, chainrings, bar tape, cable housing all work nicely with the frame. I'm sure it rides like a dream.

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[sean leadem]

GORGEOUS bike!!! 

I'm the user who bought Ryan's competition.  Because I have all my 650b stuff on an old International the Competition is now a hot 700c with 7spd Dura Ace and an ugly but very functional rack (and fender lines I'm working on). 

[Chris Cullum]

FWIW this is what Peter Weigle uses for his Raleigh 650B rando conversions, so obviously it's a pretty decent starting point.

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[Virgil Staphbeard]

Peter adjusts the chainstays for wider clearance as far as I know. 

On Thursday, May 4, 2017 at 1:33:48 PM UTC-4, Chris Cullum wrote:

FWIW this is what Peter Weigle uses for his Raleigh 650B rando conversions, so obviously it's a pretty decent starting point.

On May 3, 2017 20:12, "Robert Aguirre" <ragui...@gmail.com> wrote:

Have wanted to do a conversion for a while, and here it is.  Meant for our fast group rides in double pace lines.  Acquired a Raleigh Competition with Capella lugs and added the following:

Modern touches: 

TA Carmina crankset with Sugino 46/36 rings

Specialized stem and ITM bars

Ritchey saddle

Shimano 10 speed drive train

Hand built wheels: Dura Ace 28h hubs; Pacenti rims; Sapim spokes

Retro touches:

OMAS TI bottom bracket

Mafac Raid brakes (modern shoes)

TA bottle cage

Rides great.  Love this bike!

https://www.flickr.com/photos/90388130@N00/albums/72157680266041323

Robert

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[Chris Cullum]

Peter does all manner of things including moving bridges, adding cable stops and braze ons, canti boases etc. That said it's a great basis for a conversion.

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[Virgil Staphbeard]

I understand that, but was addressing the chainstay clearance question and if there's enough to get by. 

[Robert Aguirre]

So no problems on the 650b x 42 Compass Tires in the chainstays.  Front is a breeze.  I have the wheel pulled back as far as possible in the dropouts.

The Mafac raids are at the limit of reach, and optimally one might want braze ons for cantis, but I didn't want to do any frame mods.  The Raids have great stopping power, especially with modern shoes and pads.

The other thing is the Huret dropout, but if you do a google search you can come up with a solution for mounting a modern derailleur.  It has been discussed many times on the Classics Rendezvous list.

I already have another bike with 700 x 35 tires, so I decided to try the 650b route with this one.  Peter Weigle's bikes were a starting point.

Best,

R

[Mark Bulgier]

Robert Aguirre wrote:

> The Mafac raids are at the limit of reach

I see your brake shoe posts are angled down slightly to make the brakes reach the rim.  If it were mine, I would probably file on the brake a bit, to eke out a bit more reach.

First place to file is where the centerbolt goes through the bridging part of the brake (is there a name for that part?), the aluminum arch with the two pivots attached.  File the round hole into an oval, all in the upward direction.  You can safely get a couple millimeters there.  Some Mafac brakes even came with that hole oval shaped for this very reason.  Filing there lowers the whole brake and so it reduces your fender clearance, but you have plenty of clearance to play with, some might say too much even.

If that doesn't get you enough reach, the next place to file is the bottom of the brake shoe attachment slots in the two arms.  You can't take much ff there without weakening the brake to an unacceptable degree, but I would consider 1 mm to be quite safe.  Done it a few times on high-mileage bikes, no cracks.

The round files made for sharpening chainsaws are good for this sort of thing.  I like that they are parallel, not tapered.  Others might prefer the tapered type, and those will definitely work if that's what you have already.  If buying a file, get the largest round file that will fit in the hole you're ovalizing.  Finish quality doesn't matter, the filing won't show, so a coarse or bastard-cut file is OK, and they cut faster than a smooth-cut or finishing file.

-Mark

[Mark Guglielmana]

I've done 5 of these conversions now, my take on answering your questions:

-Respacing the rear triangle to 130 isn't an issue. 135 probably not as well, I've just never done it. Carefully follow St. Sheldons method as a minimum. 

-The fork blades are very long, a good fender line will still require spacing so that they won't interfere with the brakes. Alternatively, if you're willing to spend money on some new braze-ons + paint, brazed-on posts would nail the brake positioning. 

-You could change to 700c and still be able to go to 32-35mm wide tires + fenders, so you're absolutely correct in your assumption. 

Tire width maximization is the main motivation in going to 650b. Peter Weigle is the master, study his Flickr site carefully, you'll learn a lot.

[Mark Guglielmana]

Mark, that's the backing plate. That's what Jan calls it, so I'm good with it.

[David Cummings]

I would start the same way with such a special bike: ride it for a good while to be sure I fall in love with it. THEN I'd THINK about taking a torch to it, ride it some more, then make a decision. No need to rush it.

She looks beautiful and quite speedy. :)

[Mark Guglielmana]

For those looking for an early 70's Competition as raw material for a 650b conversion, another option is the Raleigh Super Tourer of the same vintage. They may be a bit harder to find in the US, since there weren't as many imported as the Competition. The tubing set is the same, the forks are the same, the geometry is the same, the difference is a few details. They use a different lugset, but the same Huret dropouts. The chain stays are indented, so there's even more clearance for fat tires in the rear. They also have a pair of pump pegs on the top tube. 

[Mark Guglielmana]

That's typically good advice. Mod'ing a frame to 650b, especially if you go all in and rerake, significantly changes the ride characteristics. I had a 71 International that had a bad case of the shakes built up with 700c and no frame mods. I reraked to low 30's trail, put 650b x 42 Hetres on it, and suddenly it rode as if heaven sent. It was odd that adding more trail got rid of the wobble, most reports I've read are that less trail can create it. 

I sometimes take the opposite approach. If I really like a bike, I don't want to modify it, especially if there's lots of chrome that could be affected, the paints in really good shape, and the ride is good to begin with. I search for frames that have the geometry I'm looking for, long fork blades to account for the inevitable shortening that occurs during reraking, and, of course, clearance for 42's minimum. If the paints ratty, maybe a top tube ding, all the better, since I can get the frame at a discount, I can roll out and fill the ding, and all the torchwork doesn't matter since it's getting a new finish anyway. Peppered chrome typically cleans up nicely with some simichrome and elbow grease. 

[Chris Cullum]

On May 5, 2017 9:13 AM, "Mark Guglielmana" <mark.gug...@gmail.com> wrote:

That's typically good advice. Mod'ing a frame to 650b, especially if you go all in and rerake, significantly changes the ride characteristics. I had a 71 International that had a bad case of the shakes built up with 700c and no frame mods. I reraked to low 30's trail, put 650b x 42 Hetres on it, and suddenly it rode as if heaven sent. It was odd that adding more trail got rid of the wobble, most reports I've read are that less trail can create it. 

You added more take resulting in less trail. Did you perhaps realign the frame and forks in the course of the mods? Maybe the frameset was a bit off of alignment in its original iteration resulting in wobble/shimmy?

I sometimes take the opposite approach. If I really like a bike, I don't want to modify it, especially if there's lots of chrome that could be affected, the paints in really good shape, and the ride is good to begin with. I search for frames that have the geometry I'm looking for, long fork blades to account for the inevitable shortening that occurs during reraking, and, of course, clearance for 42's minimum. If the paints ratty, maybe a top tube ding, all the better, since I can get the frame at a discount, I can roll out and fill the ding, and all the torchwork doesn't matter since it's getting a new finish anyway. Peppered chrome typically cleans up nicely with some simichrome and elbow grease. 

On Friday, May 5, 2017 at 6:53:32 AM UTC-7, David Cummings wrote:

I would start the same way with such a special bike: ride it for a good while to be sure I fall in love with it. THEN I'd THINK about taking a torch to it, ride it some more, then make a decision. No need to rush it.

She looks beautiful and quite speedy. :)

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[Mark Guglielmana]

Sorry, just saw this. 

I checked the frame alignment on this particular bike when I first built it up. I'm not sure if frame misalignment causes wobble, but can't say that it has no contribution, either. At any rate, the only mod to the frame when going to 650b was adding rake. 

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[Brad]

Beauteous.  And it looks right without fenders which is a big plus on a conversion.

On Wednesday, May 3, 2017 at 11:12:16 PM UTC-4, Robert Aguirre wrote:

[Dave Johnston]

Is the right rear brake pad upside down? It might just be an artifact of the light, but it looks like the curve of the pad doesn't follow the rim.

On Wednesday, May 3, 2017 at 11:12:16 PM UTC-4, Robert Aguirre wrote: