Experience with Velocity Aileron rims? Decisions to be made...

[Bob Lovejoy]

I am in the process of redefining/remaking one of my bikes, deciding to use most of the parts for a new build, a Velo Orange Polyvalent (current version - disc).

Yes, one last attempt at the "one bike"...

Frame and headset are ordered, most of the necessary misc parts are set and ready.

But wheels? The imposed constraint is that the plan was to repurpose hubs I have (White Ind XMR / SON28), both 36h.

That seems to be first of the challenges, the 36h part, but there is also the 100/135 QR aspect.

I want this bike and these wheels to be something of an explorer (mixed road/gravel), be able to take at least a 25lb load or so, yet still be great fun and responsive, and light enough for group and longer rides.

Assumptions:

1. I don't really care about going tubeless though I realize there could be advantages.  I just sense the downside more than I appreciate the potential goodness.  But tubeless-ready is fine as long as tire issues are manageable.

2. I weigh about 205lbs and want to be able to carry at least 20-25 lbs of stuff (groceries, camping gear, food/water?) though that might not happen often.

So far I have looked at or started to look at:

1. Rebuilding the WI/SON28 hubs using Velocity Aileron rims, 36h  (light, but tough enough?)

2. Rebuilding the hubs with Velocity Atlas rims 36h (very tough but heavy)

3. Looked at some other options but the 36h/650b/QR challenge is real... 

3. A new possible option... Ordering outright a new wheel set (for example, Hunt SuperDura Dynamo, 32h) and selling the 700c wheels with the WI/SON hubs. (light, same weight limit concerns as the Aileron's?, configurable for 100/135 QR).

https://us.huntbikewheels.com/collections/dynamo-wheels/products/hunt-superdura-dynamo-disc-road-bike-pack-cx-wheelset-120kg-rider-weight-1939g-24deep-25wide#techspecs

Questions....

1. Anyone have experience with the Aileron 650b rims?  If so, any problems?  Strong enough?  Being tubeless ready, any issues with tire installation/removal?  Any other considerations?

2. Any other ideas?  Needs to be under a $700-800 solution (total).

3. Classic looks would be highly valued but I am coming to better understand rim designs and why they are as they are.

Thanks for any ideas... Sorry for all the words.

Bob

[David Parsons]

I don't have any of them, but one of the stated uses for the Aileron is cyclocross, so I expect it would be fine for you (as would the Quill, which is a lighter rim by a whopping 10 grams) if your mixed gravel/road does not include an excess of gnar.

The nice thing about disco lyfe is that you don't need to worry about burning through a brake track, and so an aileron/quill should last approximately forever in normal use.

(I'd not worry about your weight; bicycle wheels are much more stout than they're rated for as long as you use sturdy spokes.)

Why is 36h + 650b + QR a problem?

-david parsons

> 1. Rebuilding the WI/SON28 hubs using Velocity  rims, 36h  (light, but tough enough?

> 2. Rebuilding the hubs with Velocity Atlas rims 36h (very tough but heavy

[Bob Lovejoy]

I have come to be at peace concerning the wheels being strong enough.  I mean, Velocity even specs an Aileron "Clydesdale" build in their available wheel sets so, yeah, I think I am going to cross that off the list.  Interestingly, they do not list a Quill "Clydesdale" build, and I suspect the Aileron might be considered a slightly stronger rim.  I am only guessing but I say that based on the higher (more v-shaped) profile of the Aileron versus the Quill.  I believe that deeper "V" gives it more strength just by design (but I could absolutely be wrong on that).  I like the look and the lower profile of the Quill more!  But I am going to follow along in their thinking, whatever it might be.

The problem with the 36h/650b/QR is that, in this modern age, there are just not many rims being made that fit the description, or so it seems.  I have not turned over every website, but say you find a rim you like... and *if* it is made in 650b (not a given) versus 700c then it most often maxes out at 32h.  A lot of 28h and 32h and 24's for that matter, but not that many 36's, not in 650b's anyway.  Then throw in the fact most everything is going thru-axle, the number of choices gets smaller than you might expect.  The QR/135/100 problem is solved by some of the hubs as they can be configured to be any of those (via endcaps, axle options, etc.) but then you are likely to run into the 32h max issue.  I think weight rules these days, maybe even logic, and wheel tech has gotten to the point where 36h rims are considered overkill and not needed, especially with a smaller 650b rim.  Kind of the wheel/rim version of triple cranks?

Bob

P.S.  I will *also* have triple cranks on this bike!  Well, that's the plan anyway... We shall see.

[David Parsons]

On Wednesday, May 20, 2020 at 3:33:58 PM UTC-7, Bob Lovejoy wrote:

The problem with the 36h/650b/QR is that, in this modern age, there are just not many rims being made that fit the description, or so it seems.  I have not turned over every website, but say you find a rim you like... and *if* it is made in 650b (not a given) versus 700c then it most often maxes out at 32h.

Oh, that makes sense;  the collabo of 36h x 650b is pretty small (muuuch worse if you're looking for something with a brake track) and if you're looking at a particular rim you're likely to come away disappointed.   It's like looking for sub-500gm rims; now that 650b has become the gnar-shredding choice the vaaaast majority of rims are 500 grams and up.

   -david parsons

[Michael Arciero]

You know the Aileron is disc only, yes? The Aileron are pretty awesome. I think of them as the disc version of the Quill, which I have in 650b on one bike-awesome also. They are different extrusion but both come out of the A23 lineage.  The only possible downside to Aileron is that they are ever so slightly deep section enough that with a short valve stem you may have issues with a press-on pump head, getting the head on there. Not something you want to discover in the field. Not an issue if the pump head screws on, or just carry longer stem tubes.

Speaking of durability- should be fine for single bike use unless you are clyde and really bash them around.

We had them for several years and many thousands of miles in use on our 650b tandem, in 36 spoke. Have used  both tubed and tubeless. Easy to mount tires, tubeless set up fine. The rear eventually cracked around the rim bed but that was with team weight of 280lb and bashing around serious gravel roads, jeep tracks, etc. We got a flat tire, and when replacing the tube I saw the rim tape wrinkled and cracking circumferentially around the rim. FYI another tell tale is the rim going mysteriously out of true. The Velocity rep commented that we got a decent life span out of them, and recommended Cliffhanger (which I would have considered but that would have created clearance issues with 47 tires). Interesting that Velocity has them under the Clyde section but not the Tandem section. In any case We still have the Aileron on the front but may replace. I also note that since the crack is on the rim bed, more spokes would not have made a difference.

So I am giving Aileron a pass on that one and still recommend. In fact when I told Peter White about it cracking said he would have okayed it for tandem use, and he is pretty conservative with regard to wheels. 

And yes-when you want 36 spoke, you're pretty much limited to Velocity. Thankfully they have some good ones. If you wanted to do carbon, Light Bicycle will do whatever drilling you want. At least they did when I inquired a couple of years ago. 

[Andrew Frost]

Other Velocity options for 36 hole and 650b would be the Cliffhanger (super strong) or the Blunt SS (very light). The Blunt SS is only available in black and 36 hole, though they might do a custom finish, but the cliffhanger is available in polished silver for a more classic look. 

[Jocelyn]

Anyone have experience with the Aileron 650b rims?  If so, any problems?  Strong enough?  Being tubeless ready, any issues with tire installation/removal?  Any other considerations?

I've been running a set of 650b Aileron (32h) on my gravel/alroad bike for about 2 years now, and the rims have been very reliable. I'm pretty light (~140lbs) but rode them quite aggressively on gravel & MBT singletracks without any issue.

For the tubeless side of things, installation was fine with 42mm tires (BSP, Pumpkin ridge), and doable with a floor pump, but was a bit harder with larger tires such as SBH and Thunderburt (2.25"). I also had the beads "unsealing" when going completely flat with large tires (SBH), this happened once on the side of the road, and forced me to put a tube back since I wasn't able to set the tire with a hand pump...

Tire removal has never been a problem.

-Jocelyn

[Bob Lovejoy]

I need to look more at the Blunt option.  I have heard them mentioned often but I don't know enough to say much.  Worth looking and learning though.

I will add that, ironically, the hubs I am trying to reuse are currently built into some extraordinarily nice and well built 700c touring wheels... and are using Velocity Atlas rims.  I love the look, the strength, almost everything about them aside from the weight.  The bike I had them on, a full-blown touring bike (Soma Saga Disc), was probably exactly right for loaded touring.  But the bike was just too much of a beast for normal day-to-day.  I want the new bike to be more fun, more responsive, while still being tough enough for most things, more of an explorer versus a tourer.  The wheels on the Saga were probably a small part of the problem but I don't want to take a chance on that. 

The Cliffhanger's are great(!), just more than I need.  I will also add that when I took the tires off of the (not tubeless rated) Atlas rims, I was amazed at how easily I could remove and install them.  I only add that as it is not always the case with true tubeless rim/tire combinations.  It is one thing to do changes and fixes at home, another to have problems in the countryside, miles away from most everything.  Great rims though, both the Cliffhanger and the Atlas.

[Mitch Harris]

On Wednesday, May 20, 2020 at 11:51:12 AM UTC-6, Bob Lovejoy wrote:

I am in the process of redefining/remaking one of my bikes, deciding to use most of the parts for a new build, a Velo Orange Polyvalent (current version - disc).

Yes, one last attempt at the "one bike"...

;;;2. Rebuilding the hubs with Velocity Atlas rims 36h (very tough but heavy)... 

;;;3. Classic looks would be highly valued but I am coming to better understand rim designs and why they are as they are....

1. Anyone have experience with the Aileron 650b rims?  If so, any problems?  Strong enough?  Being tubeless ready, any issues with tire installation/removal?  Any other considerations?

Enjoy your Polyvalent Bob. I really like my new model VO Polyvalent. I was hesitant to get a bike in this price range given that I have nicer ones and a customs, and thought it wouldn't be fun enough to ride. But using one of the Polyvalent forks for another bike of mine (a Bontrager Race disc conversion that needed a rigid 1" disc fork with lots of offset and rack mount) I was impressed by the build quality of the fork, good looks (my only segmented fork currently), and most of all was surprised how lively the fork is. That's not saying a lot for a stiff disc fork, of course, but I have two other comparable steel disc forks and this one has a subtle but noticeably livelier feel while still showing no asymmetry in braking response (which some people worry about with QR disc forks). I liked the fork enough I got curious about the rest of the bike. Most of my bikes are rim-brake but I was in need of a disc commuter and found I just didn't want to pass up the chance at a low trail steel 1" quill disc bike. Not disappointed. Attached is my initial build but I need to put a longer stem on there. The size 60 has a 60cm TT  and I overestimated how much to cut back on stem length since my usual TT size is 58. Also doesn't have its headlight set up yet. 

To your questions: I haven't used the Aileron rims but have been happy with several Velocity rims that are easy to build. In general, I'm happier with the lighter rim wheelsets I build. I know the evidence that moderates how much lighter rims/wheels are supposed to matter but I find I like the feel and prefer light rims. The rims in my build are fairly heavy DL31, Pacenti 26"/559 rims designed originally for DH where heavy is good. They're 530g for the 559 I think, and strong, and comparable to the Cliffhanger in weight, but I would not build with them again because I notice the weight. I forget about it, but when I switch wheelsets around occasionally and have a lighter rim 559 wheelset on this bike, I notice it and like it lighter. My other wheelset uses narrower rims too (these DL31 are 31mm outside width) and I do not notice much advantage at all from the wider rim at ordinary road pressures. Overall I prefer the narrower rims with the same tires (RTP EL) moved from one wheelset to the other. I'm sure the wider rims would have an advantage at really low psi on trails but there is no benefit (for me) and a couple drawbacks (for me) to the wider rim wheelset, Still, they're good rims and I forget about the difference when I haven't ridden the other wheelset in a while. 

As for classic looks if that means silver rims for some folks, I removed the black ano from these rims before I built them up. It was easy and quick. 

As for loaded weight, I wouldn't hesitate to carry the weight you describe, and more, on lightweight rims, including Blunt SS, but I build 32 or 28, 3cross. My concern with the Blunt SS would be the easy-to-dent-on-rocks comments I've seen about them, but maybe that only relates to rocky single-track use. 

Mitch, no connection to VO

in Utah

[Michael Arciero]

Cliffhanger, Aileron, and Quill, are all modern tubeless designs. The fit and finish quality are very high. The Atlas is a traditional, box-section, eyeletted rim. Not tubeless or "modern" in any respect.  The Atlas was what I replaced the rear Aileron that cracked with. I selected it for its heft, and the fact that it was the right inner width-wide but not too wide.  Our preferred tires on the Cliffhanger would not have cleared the rear stays. I was not impressed with the finish quality. Most of the  eyelets were loose and rattled, had sharp edges, and there were irregular dimple-like depressions  around all the spoke holes on the rim bed-some kind of production artifact, as if someone hit each hole with a ball peen hammer, but hit a little  off-center on each hole. This was on both rims. I have pics somewhere. The velocity rep, who had given me a crash replacement discount- assured me they would be fine, and also offered to exchange them. He referred to the Aileron and Quill as a more "premium" rims when I compared the finish quality.  In the end I went with the Atlas and it has been fine. The eyelets are fine on a built wheel with spoke tension, and the dimples did not present structural issue. And I must say that with the polished finish the rim does look pretty good.

[Bob Lovejoy]

Thanks Mitch.. and an absolutely great looking bike you've built!  Well done and well chosen... If I really do get to some imagined point of fewer bikes and a little more money, I may have to explore the 26" wheel option (as a second set or whatever).  

Though I am going with intuition maybe more than knowledge, I have built and ridden enough bikes now to put a range around what I like, how I like the bike to respond (and what that takes), as well as how I like a bike to fit.  I guess I should add that I have a better understanding of the riding I love to do, versus the heavy touring or lightning fast that shows up in visions at times.  I have had several 650b bikes (currently have a Katakura Silk conversion) and I love the responsiveness and ability to go almost anywhere. 

I know they are coming out with a new Polyvalent, with thru axles, threadless, etc. and I have nothing against that.  It will in all likelihood be a great bike.  But I wanted the flexibility (in adjustment and feel) of a quill/threaded stem and I had these hubs that I could redeploy if I stayed 100/135/QR (though the WI could be adapted I think to TA).  But yeah, I too could not pass up the chance for this frame.  I would love a custom!  But, in the meantime, this frame has much of what I was looking for.  

I have actually had a previous version of the Polyvalent and loved it.  Well, except the older versions had an even longer top tube (seemingly more built for swept back bars) and it was just a little more than I could deal with.  This newer version has a slightly shorter TT, and I know I will be good.

And, if I can close a deal on a wheel build, I will be going with the Aileron's, though I have to live with a previous bad decision (black hubs instead of classic silver).  I am probably going with black rims and silver spokes.  One thing I do not like about the Aileron's is the non-classic somewhat deep "V" shape.  I am hoping the black rims help minimize the visual effect, though I know they are stronger for that shape.

Anyway, thanks for the ideas and for showing your bike and build!  

Bob

[Bob Lovejoy]

I had the likely advantage of only seeing the Atlas rims after the wheels were built!  So no rattles... And not to my credit, the 700c Atlas-based wheels I have now have very few miles.  I dream of loaded touring and all sorts of things, but, yeah, that has not really happened yet, and not likely to, at least in that around-the-world sort of way.  I do like the width of the Atlas versus the wider Cliffhanger, but I know the Cliffhanger is perfect for a lot of applications, and is tubeless ready.

I think the Aileron's are going to be perfect... well, maybe with decals removed but we'll see...

Bob

[Mitch Harris]

On Friday, May 22, 2020 at 6:47:22 PM UTC-6, Bob Lovejoy wrote:

Thanks Mitch.. and an absolutely great looking bike you've built!  Well done and well chosen... If I really do get to some imagined point of fewer bikes and a little more money, I may have to explore the 26" wheel option (as a second set or whatever).  

Thanks. RTPs are fun and fast in ways that surprse.  

 

Though I am going with intuition maybe more than knowledge, I have built and ridden enough bikes now to put a range around what I like, how I like the bike to respond (and what that takes), as well as how I like a bike to fit.  I guess I should add that I have a better understanding of the riding I love to do, versus the heavy touring or lightning fast that shows up in visions at times.  I have had several 650b bikes (currently have a Katakura Silk conversion) and I love the responsiveness and ability to go almost anywhere. 

It's good to have explored this and know what you want. I get restless, and maybe need change more often than some so have not tried to get to the one-bike-quiver. 

FWIW, I've found that the wheelsize changing / swapping out ability of a disc bike for me turns out not to be about using different wheelsets for different purposes, as people often plan, e.g. fat 559 or 584 tires for trails, swapped for skinny 622 tires for road, etc. For my purposes, several fat road tires feel great on the road (RTP EL, SBH EL, BSP EL) and I don't need to swap out to 622 wheelset to feel I'm fast enough on the road. The wheelsize swap change advantage of a disc bike turns out to be 1) the flexibility of letting a bike tell me whether it wants to be a 559 bike or a 584 bike by how it feels, whether RTP EL or BSP/SBH El feels most at home and most useful and fun on it. On the Polyvalent I've used only the RTPs because that's what I had in mind and it handles just like I wanted. But on another disc bike, I did go back and forth between 559 and 584 wheelsets a bit to see what I liked best, and what the bike preferred, but then stayed with 584 after that. I was glad to have that flexibility in the first year but don't need to keep swapping sizes over time. I'm pretty new to disc bikes (only a few years) but I imagine another advantage might be to transform the personality of a bike (different wheelsize/tire size can do that) after a few years if you want a change or start to feel bored of a bike. 

 

I know they are coming out with a new Polyvalent, with thru axles, threadless, etc. and I have nothing against that.  It will in all likelihood be a great bike.  But I wanted the flexibility (in adjustment and feel) of a quill/threaded stem and I had these hubs that I could redeploy if I stayed 100/135/QR (though the WI could be adapted I think to TA).  But yeah, I too could not pass up the chance for this frame...

 

My feelings exactly.  

 

I have actually had a previous version of the Polyvalent and loved it.  Well, except the older versions had an even longer top tube (seemingly more built for swept back bars) and it was just a little more than I could deal with.  This newer version has a slightly shorter TT, and I know I will be good.

Fortunately, I like long top tubes anyway, but it could be a dealbreaker to someone who needs both a shallow seat angle and a short top tube and is using drops. As it is, I'm glad it has some long-term versatility if I want to try out a flat bar some day.

One thing about the Polyvalent up close is some of the nice quality and features you never see at this price point or even close: the nice seat-tube binder bolt ears and brazed collar--plenty of people are fine with an added aluminum collar and I like them fine on some bikes, but this is a just a nice feature on a road bike. Also the seat-stay top eyes--it works fine to just tig-weld the seatstays into the back of seat-tube, but VO's inclusion of a traditional seat "lug" area with brazed collar and seatstay top-eyes makes a special bike at this price point. Lots of other similar features for an otherwise plain/non-lugged bike made this one stand out for me once I gave it a closer look. Then it's ride and handling really makes it. 

 

And, if I can close a deal on a wheel build, I will be going with the Aileron's, though I have to live with a previous bad decision (black hubs instead of classic silver).  I am probably going with black rims and silver spokes.  One thing I do not like about the Aileron's is the non-classic somewhat deep "V" shape.  I am hoping the black rims help minimize the visual effect, though I know they are stronger for that shape.

I am intrigued by the Aileron and Quill rims too, and plan to build with them first chance I get. 

[satanas]

@ Mitch: Have you tried 700c wheels on any of your disc bikes, and did the handling change significantly if so?

[Bob Lovejoy]

Hard to explain, even harder to defend at times, but... yes(!), at least with the bikes we connect with.  When you are building up a bike or just experimenting, the build or change actually becomes a collaboration of sorts... the bike itself gets a vote on how it wants to be.  Logic can take you so far, but listening and willingness to understand, well, I think that is where the magic comes in.

Bob

On Friday, May 22, 2020 at 9:44:42 PM UTC-5, Mitch Harris wrote:

...

The wheelsize swap change advantage of a disc bike turns out to be 1) the flexibility of letting a bike tell me whether it wants to be a 559 bike or a 584 bike by how it feels, whether RTP EL or BSP/SBH El feels most at home and most useful and fun on it. On the Polyvalent I've used only the RTPs because that's what I had in mind and it handles just like I wanted. But on another disc bike, I did go back and forth between 559 and 584 wheelsets a bit to see what I liked best, and what the bike preferred, but then stayed with 584 after that. I was glad to have that flexibility in the first year but don't need to keep swapping sizes over time. I'm pretty new to disc bikes (only a few years) but I imagine another advantage might be to transform the personality of a bike (different wheelsize/tire size can do that) after a few years if you want a change or start to feel bored of a bike. 

 ...

[Mitch Harris]

On Saturday, May 23, 2020 at 5:42:29 AM UTC-6, satanas wrote:

@ Mitch: Have you tried 700c wheels on any of your disc bikes, and did the handling change significantly if so?

Haven't tried it. (no 622 disc wheelsets.) 

Mitch

in Utah