WTB: 650b wheels, classic appearance, 130mm spacing

[Marcus Helman]

Subject line says it all.  I am making the switch to 650b, and I'm looking for some wheels.  I am setting up the bike to look as vintage as possible, so I want them all silver.  I prefer high flange hubs and non-aero rims.  I want to run 42mm tires.

I have seen a pair on Bikemania for $280.  Is there anywhere else I should look?

Marcus

[Mark Bulgier]

The most classic-looking 650b rims I've seen are the Pacenti PL23.  Square "non-aero" profile, polished non-anodized aluminum.  They work well with 42 mm tires.   Maybe you can find them built as wheels (I did, got mine on eBay), but I think there are still some retailers with rims for sale and probably folks who will build them up into custom wheels for you.  Going that route is usually expensive though, compared to pre-built wheels. 

Box Dog's website says they have 'em, but I think the website may not be updated.  They still show the old version of the rim, which hasn't been available for a while now.

The original version had some cracking problems.  Kirk P. the designer said they got less than 1% of them back for warranty but I'm pretty sure the number that cracked was higher than that.  The second version was ~50 g. heavier in the right places, and I haven't heard any reports of those cracking.  Even the  original lighter version seems to be reliable for light riders if you don't tighten the spokes too tight. 

Bicycle Quarterly rated the originals as the best then-available 650b rim (Summer 2013), but then right after that issue went to press, their test wheel started to develop cracks in the rear rim.  I don't know if they tested the new-improved version.

They are "tubeless ready" which is good if you want to tubeless, but they are more difficult to get tires onto than most rims.  The new version is better but still not as easy as some other rims.

There are many other options but I thought I'd mention those because they're a favorite of mine.

I haven't tried the Grand Bois rims, but they look fairly classic, polished aluminum, appear to be top quality.  Not tubeless compatible, but I have heard they are easier to mount tires on.  Availability is probably better than the Pacenti.

Mark Bulgier
Seattle

[Andy Bailey Goodell]

There was recently a bit of chatter on the Internet-BOB list about SL23s. Many people (myself included) found them to be inappropriately tight, requiring metal tire levers or bead setter devices and a half hour of fighting to get the tire bead over the oversized rim the first time.

I recently had my first flat on them after 500 miles, and was luckily able to fix it roadside with metal tire levers in 15 minutes, about double my usual time. That's okay on a solo ride, but I'd hate to waste others' time on a group ride or get dropped on a brevet knowing I can't make up 15 minutes to catch anyone. I definitely won't be buying these again until I hear that a new production run addresses the fit issue.

Andy in Dover, NH

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[David Cummings]

I vaguely recall that thread, were people using Pacenti tires as well? One would hope that the two would work well together. That's how I plan to use my SL23's... when I find a round Tuit...

[Mark Bulgier]

In that thread on SL23 rims, some people posted that they aren't that bad, if you seriously pay attention to keeping the bead down in the center well while trying to get the last little bit on.  Due to the Tubeless Ready design, the bead will not fall down into the well naturally, you have to push it there and keep it there for the duration until the last bit if bead is over the hump.  That doesn't take hand strength but it does take some dexterity, and mostly, the knowledge, and willingness to pay attention to that detail.

That's my experience with the PL23, and I assume it's similar on the SL23 (which I haven't tried yet).  It was devilishly hard until I realized I had to up my game, in the area of keeping the bead down in the center well.  After 30 years in the bike business, I thought I was an expert, then found out that Tubeless Ready rims require even a grizzled veteran to learn a new trick.  Since the center well is narrow, it helps to get the first bead completely out of the well once you're done mounting it, to make it easier for the second bead to stay completely in the well.  Again not super difficult but you need to understand what's going on, and pay attention to that detail – a detail that used to take care of itself for us, with the old non-tubeless rims.

Oh and the other trick is you must use a tubeless style rim tape such as Stan's, or the blue stuff Pacenti sells.  Almost anything else, such as Velox cloth tape or Velocity plugs, will be too thick.  On the plus side, Stan's and Pacenti are really good rim tapes, even if you have no interest in going tubeless.  I've been using Stan's even on non-tubeless rims, because it makes tight tires like the Challenge Parigi-Roubaix easier to mount.  You wouldn't think a Velox tape could add that much to the difficulty but the difference was very noticeable.

The Grand Bois rims that Compass sells are an example of rims where the bead just falls down into the well without much prodding.  A good choice if easy changes is one of your more important criteria.  You won't have the option of going tubeless later though.  Personally I haven't tried tubeless yet but I figger I will sooner or later, probably sooner.  I like the idea of it.

Mark Bulgier
Seattle

[Chris Cullum]

A lot of this no longer current because both the Pacenti SL23 and PL23 are no longer available in 650B. Apparently the PL23 is going to have a successor but it's not out yet. The SL23 I believe is permanently discontinued in 650B which is too bad. I'm one of the ones that really likes that rim. Velocity has a few 650B rim brake rims but none are very classic looking. Their tire mounting and reliability has been spotty in many of their 650B offerings. VO has the Diagonale which is a bit heavy and looks much like a polished 650B version of the Sun CR18. That leaves the GB rim which is probably the best 650B rim brake rim for a classic look. It's not the cheapest option available though.

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Chris Cullum
Vancouver, BC

[Jack Fortune]

Marcus

I've been very pleased with the Grand Bois rims. 

Jack Fortune

Eugene, Oregon USA

[Marcus Helman]

I remember reading about the cracking problem on the Pacentis, so I never considered them.  I saw the discussion about SL23s on the Internet-BOB group, but frankly did not know what SL23s are, so I did not follow the thread.  I plan to use tubes.  I have no special desire to get rims on which tires are hard to mount.

Velo Orange has 650b wheels, but I have been warned that their stuff is cheaply made.  Is that bad reputation deserved?  Does it apply to all V-O branded items they sell?

How wide does a rim need to be to use 42 tires?

Best regards,

Marcus Helman

[Theresa]

Love, love, l o v e the newer Grand Bois 650b rims! They have a great classic look and tire installation is SO easy compared to the velocity synergy which I was using (PITA to get a tired seated properly). I don't care about tubeless. Haven't tried Pacenti. I run Compass and GB tires.

[David Cummings]

Just got the GB rinks from Compass. Decided to go that route for my main 650b bike because of everything posted here. It's not the cheapest, but sometimes you gets what you pays for.

I also investigated Velocity's Twin Hollow which looks a lot like older single wall rims. It still appears to be in stock on their website for decent money:
http://store.velocityusa.com/p/twin-hollow-650b?pp=12

There's also the Ambrosio Keba from France for about the same cost:
http://www.xxcycle.com/rim-ambrosio-keba-650b-silver-confreriale,,en.php
It looks a little like the Velocity rims. No reviews here. Looks to be made with input from the 650b Confreriale, but don't quote me on that.

David

[Andy Bailey Goodell]

Some VO cheap parts are cheaply made: water bottle cages and brake pads are ones I've had issues with.

I have the cranks and headset which seem just fine for their price.

I haven't tried their rims nor heard anything particularly good or bad.

Andy

[Andrew]

On Saturday, June 11, 2016 at 10:12:58 AM UTC+10, David Cummings wrote:

Just got the GB rims from Compass....

 

I also investigated Velocity's Twin Hollow ...

 

There's also the Ambrosio Keba from France for about the same cost:
http://www.xxcycle.com/rim-ambrosio-keba-650b-silver-confreriale,,en.php
It looks a little like the Velocity rims. No reviews here. Looks to be made with input from the 650b Confreriale, but don't quote me on that.

David

It's a conservative commuting & MTB section that Ambrosio already had in 622 and 559 that they make for the Confreriale in 584 and which others can buy as well from XXcycle.   There are a number of reviews on here.  It's cheap globally because xxcycle have access to reasonable postage costs where they are in France, it's got rim brake tracks, there's a wear indicator groove, it's silver, it's not tubeless, it's nice and wide (19.5mm internal), it's a bit heavy (just under 590g) and it's distinguished by by its lack of problems.  It only comes in 36H. 

Given that there seems to be agreement that the GB rims are also problem free, you spend a lot more to lose a few ounces each, have almost the same width, optionally have the more popular 32 spokes, not have the indicator, and have it look nicely retro and polished.

Andrew
 

[olof...@gmail.com]

Searching for good rims I found this comment on the net:

"Sella Berolinum / Schürmann Yak 19, 650b The rim is very cheap but the quality seems well beyond what the price might suggest. There is a little ugliness in the inside of the rim which turned out to be a practical feature. Instead of being drilled the hole is broke through the inside wall creating a barrier so that the nipples won´t fall between the walls when spoking. (looks Yak!! but works). Elsewise the finish is just as good as any other anodised rim and without any text stickers, single eyelets. The only place selling it is Sella Berolinum in Berlin and is available in 32 and 36 hole. No problems with tyre mounting. Made in Germay (width outside 25mm , inside 19mm ,measured ERD 566, 500gr)"

I was sceptical but ordered and built a set of wheels that turned out to be good-looking, easy to build up and mount (with PariMoto 38 mm) and have worked flawless for now some 3000 km. Unfortunately only in German. Also very nice experience with the shop. Also in 32 hole version. 10 mm Velox rekommenderas.

http://sella-berolinum.de/shop-teile/laufraeder-und-felgen/811/650b-/-27-5-/-584-schuermann-yak-19-felge-v-brake-36l-silber-eloxiert?c=40

Olof Stroh
Uppsala Sweden

-------------------------------------

[Chris Cullum]

On Jun 10, 2016 21:55, <olof...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Searching for good rims I found this comment on the net:
>
> "Sella Berolinum / Schürmann Yak 19, 650b       The rim is very cheap but the quality seems well beyond what the price might suggest. There is a little ugliness in the inside of the rim which turned out to be a practical feature. Instead of being drilled the hole is broke through the inside wall creating a barrier so that the nipples won´t fall between the walls when spoking. (looks Yak!! but works). Elsewise the finish is just as good as any other anodised rim and without any text stickers, single eyelets.  The only place selling it is Sella Berolinum in Berlin and is available in 32 and 36 hole. No problems with tyre mounting. Made in Germay (width outside 25mm , inside 19mm ,measured ERD 566, 500gr)"
>
> I was sceptical but ordered and built a set of wheels that turned out to be good-looking, easy to build up and mount (with PariMoto 38 mm) and have worked flawless for now some 3000 km. Unfortunately only in German. Also very nice experience with the shop. Also in 32 hole version. 10 mm Velox rekommenderas.
>
> http://sella-berolinum.de/shop-teile/laufraeder-und-felgen/811/650b-/-27-5-/-584-schuermann-yak-19-felge-v-brake-36l-silber-eloxiert?c=40
>

15 Euro!!!

> Olof Stroh
> Uppsala Sweden
>
> -------------------------------------
>
> Just got the GB rinks from Compass. Decided to go that route for my main 650b bike because of everything posted here. It's not the cheapest, but sometimes you gets what you pays for.
>
> I also investigated Velocity's Twin Hollow which looks a lot like older single wall rims. It still appears to be in stock on their website for decent money:
> http://store.velocityusa.com/p/twin-hollow-650b?pp=12
>
> There's also the Ambrosio Keba from France for about the same cost:
> http://www.xxcycle.com/rim-ambrosio-keba-650b-silver-confreriale,,en.php
> It looks a little like the Velocity rims. No reviews here. Looks to be made with input from the 650b Confreriale, but don't quote me on that.
>
> David
>
>
>

[Andrew]

Yes Olof I saw that too, but they didn't reply to my (English-only) emails. Shortly after, someone on another forum disparaged them as being the same as Weinmann / Rigida Zac 19s, then I saw this comment on Harris Cyclery's web page....

http://harriscyclery.net/m/product/wein ... s-2674.htm

... so my interest waned. If it works for you though, that's good.

[Andrew]

Yes but Chris, look at the second pic in their listing.  They're pre-cracked, no need to ride them to achieve that state!  In fairness, from what I can read with Google Translate, they do appear to make a point of telling you about it up front, but commenting that they are still OK.  I dunno...

On Saturday, June 11, 2016 at 3:02:29 PM UTC+10, Chris Cullum wrote:

>
> http://sella-berolinum.de/shop-teile/laufraeder-und-felgen/811/650b-/-27-5-/-584-schuermann-yak-19-felge-v-brake-36l-silber-eloxiert?c=40
>
15 Euro!!!

[olof...@gmail.com]

Well, no,
They look very similar, but are different makers. Zac 19 is made by Ryde who owns the Weinmann/Rigida brands and based in the Netherlands. Yak 19 (19 in both cases seem to relate to the inner width) is made by the well-known German firm Schürmann. I have toured with a full camping load on 622 mm Schürmann rims and found them very good for a reasonable price. The "cracks" are part of the process when making the rims and work as said, they hinder anything from enter between the walls.

But, of course I have only my own experience. Sceptical from the beginning due to the low price I have found them good and good-looking if you search for a traditional rim. And I bought them just a short distance within the EU, I don´t know if they are willing to trade outside the EU and with speakers of english.

Olof

[Andrew]

Thanks Olof. I did at one stage think that Schurmann were the rim makers, but I was beaten by my lack of German and maybe by not being in the EU. I'd just find it hard to explain to my family that I was happy to be riding cracked rims, if I subsequently had them fail. I think that the area around the inner spoke holes is less stressed, and not a common failure mode, but still don't like it.

[Paul Sherman]

http://www.ebay.com/itm/WHEEL-PAIR-RIM-BRAKE-650B-27-5-SLVR-130-MM-8-10-SPD-WEI-ZAC19-36-H-/291652851506?hash=item43e7dd5732:g:9f8AAOSw8RJXCUGl

so so so cheap...

[David Cummings]

Those wheels are cheap for a reason. If you want to try 650b, they are an entry way. Not a lot spent, can get money back if you change your mind. But be sure to check the hubs. I've mentioned it here before that I bought a pair of these. Not terribly easy to mount tires, but not impossible. Both hubs needed adjusting. One hub had 8 bearings on one side, 10 on the other. You get exactly what you pay for.

[Paul Sherman]

Agree 100% - the hubs are the reason I won't be buying a pair myself. For $80 more the seller has a set of Velocity Synergies laced to low-level Shimano hubs that seem to be a better balance of price and quality. If the front wheel had a cheap Shimano dynamo, I might be sold...

[Brian Rowe]

The polished Velocity A23 looks great on a vintage bike. I know its not a box-section rim, but the triangular cross section is not very deep. Anthony King built me a wheelset using the A23 for my 1980 Bianchi 650B conversion, and I've probably ridden about 3,000 miles on those wheels with zero issues. Compass tires mount nicely on the A23, in fact I just changed my first flat in the rain a few weeks ago and it was easily done.

[Mike Schiller]

we really need more rim brake  rims in 650B, and a tubeless bead should be standard on any new rim that is produced.  I emailed Pacenti to inquire about new rims on the horizon but have not received a reply.

I'm hoping WTB will produce one to complement their 47 mm Horizon tire too.  

~mike

Carlsbad Ca

[Ryan Hankinson]

Marcus,
I have 2 sets of wheels available. Let me know if you are still looking?

Sincerely,
Ryan Hankinson
West Michigan
(616)928-4226

[Jeffrey Kane]

Been saying the same thing for two years now -- and been thinking / hoping that Compass will come to the rescue the whole time.

[Joseph Kopera]

I'm currently running 25mm, 36 hole, VO 650b rims (Diagonales) and have no complaints so far. About 1200 miles on them so far, slightly more than half of that gravel and in hilly terrain. Bike + rider in my case weigh in at 280+ lbs, so the wheels are definitely getting a workout. There are undoubtedly lighter and better made rims out there, and from the look of them they're designed more as utility / touring rims. As always, proper spoke tension, tire inflation, and keeping your braking surfaces clean, are key.

If I remember correctly, BQ / Jan observed that the seams on VO's early rims weren't all that great, but that was a long while back and VO appears to have corrected this. At least, I don't notice the seams at all on mine. Tires seat well, etc...

I know BQ / JH have also observed various issues with some of their other components-- mainly issues w/ the particular aluminum alloy on their cranks. On balance, though, most cyclists also aren't doing the kind of admirable and demanding use that the BQ puts their bikes through either...so that's something to consider. My own take and experience w/ VO's stuff, which I have a lot of (mostly out of convenience and price) is that it's quite decent quality components, but their stuff not oriented towards performance cycling. If I were doing a brevet every other week I would probably look at some different components... but for touring and my long solo rides I've found everything from them to be pretty reliable.

Cheers,
Joe