Mafac Raid question ....

[Jeffrey Kane]

Forgive my ignorance here but were all the Mafac Raid brakes sold with the inner lever (arm) drilled for crown or bridge mounting? I'm guessing they were as I've heard they were initially intended as a relatively low end product. Anyway -- I'm wondering if the center drilled versions are the same type seen mounted with brazed pivots on so many "nicer" 650b frames and thus are easily disassembled at the pivot bolt?

Thanks in advance / jsk

[Steve Palincsar]

On 12/02/2015 07:21 AM, Jeffrey Kane wrote:

Forgive my ignorance here but were all the Mafac Raid brakes sold with the inner lever (arm) drilled for crown or bridge mounting? I'm guessing they were as I've heard they were initially intended as a relatively low end product. Anyway -- I'm wondering if the center drilled versions are the same type seen mounted with brazed pivots on so many "nicer" 650b frames and thus are easily disassembled at the pivot bolt?

If I understand your question correctly, the answer is yes.   The arms mount to pivots, which are either brazed onto the frame or onto a backing plate.  Perhaps a closeup of a mounted Compass Centerpull (a very slightly upgraded RAID) will illustrate:



Somewhere in the discussions, Jan has said these brakes can be used as bolt-ons by obtaing a backing plate from an old Mafac brake, of which there are usually piles in bins in older bike shops.

[Jeffrey Kane]

Thanks Steve -- that must be it. Often, when I see Raids for sale they're bolted to the backing plate -- that's the piece that has the center hole drilled. 

[Steve Palincsar]

Make that "always".  The Compass brake is sold w/o backing plate, but every RAID I've ever seen listed on ebay has always had the plate.

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[Greg Achtem]

Just an FYI to Steve's comment on piles of MAFAC brakes in older shops. The Compass brakes need a wider plate than MAFAC Racers (what you'll usually find in that pile, like 99.9%). Here's a handy graphic from http://ruedatropical.com/2009/01/mafac-dia-compe-paul-centerpull-brake-specs/

I was hoping the Dia-Compe 750s would be a good match, but no luck.

--

[Steve Palincsar]

You're right.  My bad.  I misremembered and conflated what Jan said in a comment on his blog with my memory of other discussions of the availability of old Mafac Racers.  Here's what he said in a comment (found it after a bit of googling):

We don’t plan a bolt-on version at this point. With a bolt-on version, you are moving the attachment above the tire and introduce significant flex. However, if you find a yoke from a Mafac Raid, you can make your own bolt-on version…

Of course, since so few Raids made their way here back when they were new, there's not much chance of finding one.

[Samuel McCune]

I am sure that if if someone was looking for a Raid backing plate in the US, it could be found. And if your lucky, maybe for the cost of postage only. If I were looking I'd maybe very politely email custom builders who have done bikes with brazed on Raids or check with the kind folks on iBob or Classic Rendezvous.

There have got to be at least a few people with the yoke in their parts-box.

Samuel McCune

Bethany, CT

[Steve Palincsar]

On 12/02/2015 02:03 PM, Samuel McCune wrote:

I am sure that if if someone was looking for a Raid backing plate in the US, it could be found. And if your lucky, maybe for the cost of postage only. If I were looking I'd maybe very politely email custom builders who have done bikes with brazed on Raids or check with the kind folks on iBob or Classic Rendezvous.

There have got to be at least a few people with the yoke in their parts-box.

Maybe someone said that before somewhere, and it was the custom frame builders' parts boxes I was thinking of.   Makes perfect sense, of course.

[Steve Chan]

   If someone really wants a pair of RAID mounting plates, I should have a set in the parts box. It would look painfully ratty mounted behind a pair of shiny new Compass centerpulls - but simichrome would help (or you could "distress" the compass brake arms...)

"Sow a thought, reap an action. Sow an action, reap a habit. Sow a habit, reap a character. Sow a character, reap a destiny." - Samuel Smiles

[Brian Campbell]

or just buy a set of bolt RAIDS on ebay.

[Mark Guglielmana]

If anyone needs a RAID backing plate, I have a few.

[Jim Bronson]

Pardon the stupid question but can these brakes be run by just being bolted to the brake bridge like a caliper brake?  Or are the posts a hard requirement?

-Jim

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[Matthew J]

Steve and Mark - Pretty cool you guys are jumping in to help.  This is a great thread.  Even if we do bicker at times.

[Steve Palincsar]

On 12/02/2015 05:33 PM, Jim Bronson wrote:

Pardon the stupid question but can these brakes be run by just being bolted to the brake bridge like a caliper brake?  Or are the posts a hard requirement?

Just like the smaller, narrower Mafac Racers we've all seen on so many Bike Boom bikes, when equipped with what Jan has called the "yoke" and what we here are calling "mounting plate" the brake bolts on to the brake bridge and fork.  The yoke or backing plate has a center mounting bolt, and also pivots for the arms.  The braze-on mounting dispenses with the plate and has the pivots brazed on the fork & seat stays.  You can see how it mounts to the fork here:

[Steve Palincsar]

On 12/02/2015 04:06 PM, Brian Campbell wrote:
> or just buy a set of bolt RAIDS on ebay.

This came up recently on (I think) another list. Two things of note:
the existence of Compass brakes has put a lid on the rise in prices of
used and NOS RAIDs; and they're much more available and cheaper on
French ebay than here (which makes perfect sense).

[Mark Bulgier]

I just lost an auction for a used set in good shape.  I bid $66.67 and they sold for $67.67.  Functionally nearly as good as new Compass brakes, once you replace the stock pads with Kool-Stops.  Another set on the 'bay at the mo has a BIN of $109, too rich for me.  Ooh I just looked again, there's a new listing for a set at $87 including shipping, that's more like it.  I will still pass, I have enough sets for now...

The ones with the pivots on a backing plate are great for 650b conversions of bikes that you don't want to braze on and have to repaint.  Brazed-on pivots are pretty nice though.

Mark Bulgier
Seattle

[Mark Guglielmana]

I've noticed the same. I've purchased 3 sets in the past few months under $70.

Here's a bike I put RAID's on. Tektro 559's weren't quite long enough for this 650b conversion. I got the frame in NOS condition (lugged VO Randonneur) for cheap. Maybe some day I'll get it scratched up enough to be ok with brazing on posts on the frame and forks.  

[Brad]

Mafac Raids can be bolted onto a normal brake bridge.  They also came with a kind of adapter to allow them to be bolted to a rear brake bridge with a vertical hole in it.
I think the designer was pretty brilliant because the brake allows for 650B conversion without modification on most of the bikes made to 700c. 27 x 1 1/4 specs when the Raid came out.  Unfortunately the world changed and tight clearances and side pulls and steep angles and all that took over.

[Toby Whitfield]

Scouring eBay with your location set to France seems to help find more options on Raids. I got a set for 16.40 Euros recently, in pretty good condition. I don't know why the eBay algorithm doesn't always include those options in a search, but it gives me more results when I change my location.

Further to some Raids coming with bolts for vertical seatstay bridge drilling (which seems to be more common on French bicycles), it is not hard to find donor bolts from a bike co-op as unlike the yokes, the bolts from Racers are viable donors, and there are lots of those about. If you can't find some locally I have some spares. When I was first dealing with that issue a kind person on the CR list sent some to me gratis, and I subsequently discovered a bottomless pit of spares locally - the bike co-op at the University around the corner has many, as a result of the students doing fixie conversions of old bike boom bicycles.

Toby
Toronto

[Mark Guglielmana]

Racer posts are differently spaced vs RAIDs.

[Toby Whitfield]

Mark,

Not sure if your post was directed at my comment, but I probably wasn't clear in any case with my wording.

I was referring to the bolts to mount the backing plate that carries the brake arm mounting studs to the frame. Put another way, they are the bolts that mount the plates for the Raids to the brake bridge between the seatstays in back and the fork crown in front.

Those mounting bolts are what I was referring to as being the same for Racers and Raids.

Toby

[Mark Guglielmana]

No problem, wasn't sure so I posted that pic in case someone was going to get a Racer bridge for some RAIDs. At any rate, I'd guess that most people who are buying vintage RAIDs nowadays are buying them for braze-ons. Tektro 559's are a good choice for most if you're just bolting on, unless you need a few extra mm of reach. I did on one bike!

[ted]

Bolt on raids also afford more fender clearance, and open wider. I found both of those helpful with 42mm tires on one of my bikes, though the pads are at the top of the slots.

[Jan Heine]

It all depends on where you locate the brazed-on bosses. If you get the spacing exactly like the bolt-on version, the brakes will open the same... and the brazed-on version will not have the yoke, so depending on the pad position, they'll have the same or more clearance.

The Compass specs (which work for Raids, too) are intended for the pads about 2/3 down in the slots. That optimizes the clearance for 42 mm tires and fenders. It also guarantees that you can open the brake far enough to clear the 42 mm tires with a little room to spare. The specs are available online.

Why not put the pads all the way down? Simple: You need some adjustability, not just in case the builder puts the bosses in a slightly different place, but also to accommodate pad wear and even variability in rims.

Jan Heine
Compass Bicycles Ltd.
www.compasscycle.com

[ted]

Thanks Jan, though thats not what I meant to be commenting on.

I should have been more Specific.

I meant to be contrasting bolt on Mafac Raid brakes to bolt on Tektro R559 brakes. Mark had opined that 559s make bolting on Raids unnecessary unless you need the extra reach. I found that on a bike of mine a bolt on Raid up front afforded better clearance for a fender then a 559. The Raid also can open wide enough to get an inflated 40+ tire past the pads which the quick release on the 559 did not do. Since I have the pads all the way up in the slots on the Raid the extra reach reach is not an advantage.

When I wanted to try a Raid or Compass brake on my bike I needed to either have posts brazed on my fork or get a brake yoke to mount it on. Not wanting to alter my fork for an experiment, I was glad to find an old set of Raid's on ebay, specifically because they came with the yokes. I have not noticed anybody selling just the yokes. Of course this experiment has still left me wondering what functional difference the bazed-on mounting makes vis a vis the yoke mounting.

regards

Ted

[ted kelly]

Jan,

I was not talking about brazed-on mounting. I was contrasting a bolt on mounted Mafac Raid to a bolt on mounted Tektro R559.
I am sorry I was not more explicit about what comparison I was making.

regards
Ted Kelly

[Jan Heine]

Ted,

I am sorry I misunderstood. I agree that Mafac Raids have among the best tire clearance of any brake I've used. One more reason we used them as a template for our Compass brakes.

[Eric Keller]

Ted,
I didn't understand you either, that's useful information. Thanks for
clarifying

[ted]

Jan,

No reason to be sorry, twas I who was unclear and you are not the only one who didn't get what I meant. Thank you for prompting me to clarify.

Also I clearly don't get the details of replying via email and on a web browser.

My apologies to all for the redundant posts (and I expect email).

regards,

Ted

[Mark Guglielmana]

Hi Ted,

I don't currently havea  bike with brazed on post RAIDs, but I've ridden one. Brake performance was definitely improved. More of my hand power was going to the brake pad versus being used up by the spring effect. In addition, any flex might cause a squeal. Of course Jobst Brandt had an explanation and opinion on the matter of brake squeal.

On Sun, Dec 6, 2015 at 4:36 PM, ted kelly <ted....@comcast.net> wrote:

Thanks Mark,

I have a hard time localizing the source of the flex I observe.

Do you also have a bike with Raids mounted via braze-in posts? Does the reduced flex reduce the tendency to squeal and or improve braking feel/responsiveness?

thnks

Ted

On Dec 6, 2015, at 1:28 PM, Mark Guglielmana wrote:

Ted, I think I can answer your question about brazing on centerpull posts just using one with a bridge - flex. On my bike with bolt on RAID's, if I lock up the front brake and push the bike back and forth, you can see a significant amount of flex in the brakes. A lot of this is the bolt on bridge flexing.

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[Ryan Watson]

> On 2015/12/07, at 11:18, Mark Guglielmana <mark.gug...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Do you also have a bike with Raids mounted via braze-in posts? Does the reduced flex reduce the tendency to squeal and or improve braking feel/responsiveness?

I've always had squealing issues with my Raids.
I've had two similar bikes, one with bolt-on and one with braze-on. I had high hopes that the braze-on mounting would stop the squealing, but it hasn't really made any difference for me. It still takes frequent pad replacement and fiddling with toe-in to keep them quiet. I may try the Compass bushing upgrade kit to see if that helps.
I can't say I've noticed any difference in braking power.

Ryan

[Jim Bronson]

I gain the clearance I need to remove fully inflated Louploup Passes with R559s by also having quick releases on the brake levers.  It's pretty wide, I think it would work with Babyshoe Passes also.

The aesthetic of the Raid is appealing though.  But how do they stop as compared to the R559s?  And do they squeal?  My friend's Rivendell Custom has the Paul centerpull brakes and they are pretty annoying.

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[Mark Guglielmana]

I recall Jan writing that the plastic bushings on the prototype Compass brakes cause squealing, and it went away when they switched to brass bushings.

[Brian Campbell]

I did the Compass rebuild on 2 sets of MAFAC Racers. It definitely helped reduce the squealing but not eliminate it all together. I read you could file the conical wash but I just took a big crescent wrench and gave the offending brake a very minor tweak. No more squealing.

The brakes feel smoother and less flexy to me but hat could be a brass bushing placebo......I put one set on a late 1960's Falcon road bike, which I gave to my brother. He has 3 other bikes and is emphatic that the re-done MAFAC are the best in his fleet (Including a bb7 road disc & Shimano dual pivot set up)

Again, a subjective analysis but considering he would not touch a MAFAC brake because of his previous experience with them, (i.e. not good and very squealy) I consider that high praise. Especially when you consider he is a rider not a tinkerer. If it does not work and work well fast, it gets moved along.

One thing to know that I did not see on the Compass site, is that you may need a ream to remove a tiny bit of the brass bushing, depending on you mounting post diameter. I got one on Amazon for $8. Hahn Rossman was the person who alerted me to need for this additional tool.

[Chris Cullum]

Firstly I'm quite glad that Compass has chosen to reproduce the Mafac Raid with upgraded hardware, however I would love to see a slightly more modern intperpretation of the centerpull brake for wide tires to be produce. The Raid is good but the many different sizes of hex head bolts and the cable hanger centerpull requires excess hardware and sometime problematic cable runs and excessive flex.

A direct pull centerpull for wide tires that would be a welcome addition. Even Shimano road rim brakes are now centerpull action disguised as sidepulls.

What I'm thinking is basically a wide tire version of these Tektros for example:

http://www.tektro.com/_english/01_products/01_prodetail.php?pid=197&sortname=TT%2FTriathlon&sort=2&fid=4

http://www.tektro.com/_english/01_products/01_prodetail.php?pid=80&sortname=TT%2FTriathlon&sort=2&fid=4

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Chris Cullum
Vancouver, BC

[Jan Heine]

Chris,

We thought about a more "modern" interpretation of the Mafacs. With Allen-type hardware, we'd need bigger bolts and thus bigger arms, and the whole brake would be heavier and not perform any better.

I don't follow where you see "problematic cable runs", since the straddle cable swivels at both ends, so it's always optimally aligned. This is something you don't find on more "modern" brakes, like the Paul. Similarly, I find it hard to see where the "excessive flex" comes from.

I agree that it is a disadvantage that you need multiple wrenches to set up the brake, but once set up, you get superior performance for many years. We considered this a worth while tradeoff. (And since the bolts never come loose, there is no need to carry these wrenches on your rides.)

Jan Heine

Compass Bicycles Ltd.

www.compasscycle.com

-----Original Message-----
From: Chris Cullum
Sent: Dec 7, 2015 1:43 PM
To: Brian Campbell
Cc: 650b <65...@googlegroups.com>, Mark Guglielmana , ted
Subject: Re: [650B] Mafac Raid question ....

[Jan Heine]

We didn't realize that there was so much variability in the original Mafac holes. Once we realized, we added text to the product page that you may need a reamer.

https://www.compasscycle.com/shop/components/brakes/replacement-hardware-for-compass-and-mafac-centerpull-brakes/

as well as the page with the replacement bushings

https://www.compasscycle.com/shop/components/brakes/bushings-for-compass-and-mafac-centerpull-brakes/

That is how Hahn knew...

I am sorry about any confusion that may have arisen initially.

Jan Heine

Compass Bicycles Ltd.

www.compasscycle.com

-----Original Message-----
From: Brian Campbell
Sent: Dec 7, 2015 1:09 PM
To: 650b <65...@googlegroups.com>
Cc: mark.gug...@gmail.com, ted....@comcast.net
Subject: Re: [650B] Mafac Raid question ....

[Chris Cullum]

On Dec 7, 2015 2:06 PM, "Jan Heine" <hei...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
> Chris,
>
> We thought about a more "modern" interpretation of the Mafacs. With Allen-type hardware, we'd need bigger bolts and thus bigger arms, and the whole brake would be heavier and not perform any better.
>
> I don't follow where you see "problematic cable runs", since the straddle cable swivels at both ends, so it's always optimally aligned. This is something you don't find on more "modern" brakes, like the Paul. Similarly, I find it hard to see where the "excessive flex" comes from.
>

By this I mean the cable hangers and transverse cable pull. I think a far less convoluted system is sort of a V brake style direct cable pull with an integrated adjuster. The front and rear cable hangers can be awkward on smaller frames. They can also introduce a source of flex that is not directly related to the brake itself but the cable run.

> I agree that it is a disadvantage that you need multiple wrenches to set up the brake, but once set up, you get superior performance for many years. We considered this a worth while tradeoff. (And since the bolts never come loose, there is no need to carry these wrenches on your rides.)
>
> Jan Heine
> Compass Bicycles Ltd.
> www.compasscycle.com
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Chris Cullum
>> Sent: Dec 7, 2015 1:43 PM
>> To: Brian Campbell
>> Cc: 650b <65...@googlegroups.com>, Mark Guglielmana , ted
>> Subject: Re: [650B] Mafac Raid question ....
>>
>> Firstly I'm quite glad that Compass has chosen to reproduce the Mafac Raid with upgraded hardware, however I would love to see a slightly more modern intperpretation of the centerpull brake for wide tires to be produce. The Raid is good but the many different sizes of hex head bolts and the cable hanger centerpull requires excess hardware and sometime problematic cable runs and excessive flex.
>>
>> A direct pull centerpull for wide tires that would be a welcome addition. Even Shimano road rim brakes are now centerpull action disguised as sidepulls.
>>
>> What I'm thinking is basically a wide tire version of these Tektros for example:
>>
>> http://www.tektro.com/_english/01_products/01_prodetail.php?pid=197&sortname=TT%2FTriathlon&sort=2&fid=4
>>
>> http://www.tektro.com/_english/01_products/01_prodetail.php?pid=80&sortname=TT%2FTriathlon&sort=2&fid=4
>>
>>
>>
>>

[Ryan Watson]

Jan, or anyone who's done the bushing upgrade....

The original plastic bushings have a little lip on one end. (Poor photo attached) 

It looks like the brass ones don't have this. 

Do they still work ok, or do you need to add a washer?

It looks like the full $125 rebuild kit comes with washers, but I don't need all those extra bolts and springs. 

Ryan

[Jan Heine]

You need two washers, one at each end. The plastic washers often break and get lost... (The Mafacs with brass bushings had a washer at each end, but the plastic bushing incorporated one of the washers into the bushing.)

The washers are available separately, too.

Jan Heine

Compass Bicycles Ltd.

www.compasscycle.com

-----Original Message-----
From: Ryan Watson
Sent: Dec 7, 2015 2:37 PM
To: Jan Heine
Cc: Brian Campbell , 650b <65...@googlegroups.com>, "mark.gug...@gmail.com" , "ted....@comcast.net"
Subject: Re: [650B] Mafac Raid question ....

--

[Brad]

The flex is in the fixing bolt that attaches the backing plate to the fork crown.  How do I know this?  I have Raid's set up with a TA Rack on one bike, and Racer's with a TA Rack on another bike that has a modern flat crown so that the backing plate is almost flush with the fork crown.  (It would be flush but for the TA Rack).   When loaded (by pushing down on the TA Rack)  you can see the flex in the Raid's fixing bolt.  The backing plate is so think that it would take an awful lot of force to get it to bend.   I don't have a number but at some point I plan to test one once I figure out how to hold it still and load it.

As to squeal- it is a feature not a bug.  Mafac squeal warns all within a block's radius that you are coming to a stop.

[Justin August]

I wonder how much it would cost to have a run of backing plates produced for those of us that don't want to bother with the brazing and the painting and the wiring and so on.

-J

[Jason Hartman]

There already is a modern version. It's called a bmx u-brake. Some are even available with direct cable attachment. They're aren't as light weight as the raids, but all the problems that you cite have been addressed. 

Jay Hartman

[Jan Heine]

It would require a new forging die, if you want to do it properly. Those are expensive, and the bolt-on Compass brake would be quite expensive as a result.

Instead, I'd try to find original Raid yokes/backing plates. So many people brazed on their Raids, and some of those yokes/backing plates must still lie around unused.

Jan Heine
Compass Bicycles Ltd.
www.compasscycle.com


-----Original Message-----
>From: Justin August <justin...@icloud.com>
>Sent: Dec 8, 2015 6:44 AM
>To: 650b <65...@googlegroups.com>
>Subject: Re: [650B] Mafac Raid question ....
>

>I wonder how much it would cost to have a run of backing plates produced for those of us that don't want to bother with the brazing and the painting and the wiring and so on.
>
>-J
>

[William Lindsay]

Jan

I think Justin was wondering about the actual costs.  You are in a great position to actually educate your audience about the ballpark costs of the product developments you've done.  Having now released several custom forged products, you know how it all works.  I have never spec'd a custom forged product, but I do have some visibility into the product development and manufacturing processes.  To answer Justin's question "How much would it cost?", I would take a wild guess that if Compass was motivated to release a new center yoke, the effective cost outlay by Compass would be on the order of several thousand dollars, maybe $10k, but maybe less.  And so, since your production quantities are in the dozens or hundreds, those center yoke pieces would probably need to cost between $100 and $200 each.  That would be my very rough swag at the costs, and for that reason I agree with you that it would be too expensive to take on.  The original similar M.A.F.A.C. pieces, which were forged in runs of hundreds of thousands, would have cost well under $1 apiece.  If we could just get a million cyclists to prepay for a run of a million Compass brakes, then watch those prices drop! 

best

Bill Lindsay

El Cerrito, CA

[Mark Guglielmana]

Looks like a great brake, but can you fit 42mm wide tires with a fender under them? If so, one would just have to figure out how to get a set OEM - I would imagine a frame builder meets that requirement.

--

Mark Guglielmana

[Steve Chan]

On Tue, Dec 8, 2015 at 7:09 AM, Jason Hartman <rjason...@gmail.com> wrote:

There already is a modern version. It's called a bmx u-brake. Some are even available with direct cable attachment. They're aren't as light weight as the raids, but all the problems that you cite have been addressed. 

   This is interesting that they also got the direct cable mounting in - I feel like the BMX and Mountain biking worlds are a source for a lot more innovation than the rando scene.

http://www.bmxguru.com/products/black-ops-the-clamp-bmx-u-brake-set-black-rear-lever-caliper

http://en.hollandbikeshop.com/bicycle-parts-bmx/bmx-brakes/bmx-brake-set/bmx-u-brake/odyssey-bmx-u-brake-evolver-2-black/

--

"Sow a thought, reap an action. Sow an action, reap a habit. Sow a habit, reap a character. Sow a character, reap a destiny." - Samuel Smiles

[Matthew J]

> I feel like the BMX and Mountain biking worlds are a source for a lot more innovation than the rando scene

Likely influenced by the size of the market.

[Chris Cullum]

On Dec 8, 2015 10:39 AM, "Steve Chan" <sych...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> On Tue, Dec 8, 2015 at 7:09 AM, Jason Hartman <rjason...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> There already is a modern version. It's called a bmx u-brake. Some are even available with direct cable attachment. They're aren't as light weight as the raids, but all the problems that you cite have been addressed. 
>
>
>    This is interesting that they also got the direct cable mounting in - I feel like the BMX and Mountain biking worlds are a source for a lot more innovation than the rando scene.
>

Yes I've seen those BMX brakes put out as an option but to my eye they look bulky and industrial, not something that would look appropriate on an elegant rando bike.

Something like the Tektros but optimized for large volume tires would be a nice option. If the inside radius of the curve of the arms was roughly 30mm or greater it would clear 42mm tires with fenders nicely. Fitting standard, easy set up road pads would also be a welcome feature.
> http://www.bmxguru.com/products/black-ops-the-clamp-bmx-u-brake-set-black-rear-lever-caliper
> http://en.hollandbikeshop.com/bicycle-parts-bmx/bmx-brakes/bmx-brake-set/bmx-u-brake/odyssey-bmx-u-brake-evolver-2-black/

[WMdeR]

Dear Chris (et al),

Has anyone used the recent-production BMX u-brakes and MAFAC Raids (or the recent Compass homage brake) and can comment on relative performance? Or, more likely, how about mini-V (85-90mm) vs BMX U-brakes?

Best,

Will

William M. deRosset

Fort Collins, CO

[Chris Cullum]

On Dec 8, 2015 12:24 PM, "WMdeR" <wmder...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Dear Chris (et al),
>
> Has anyone used the recent-production BMX u-brakes and MAFAC Raids (or the recent Compass homage brake) and can comment on relative performance? Or, more likely, how about mini-V (85-90mm) vs BMX U-brakes?

I can't say that I've compared those but I have used modern Shimano road calipers that use centerpull geometry with the ease of normal side pull cabling and pads. They seem to work quite well, powerful with good modulation. I think the same concept could be scaled up to wider tire capabilities.

>
> Best,
>
> Will
>
> William M. deRosset
> Fort Collins, CO
>
> On Tuesday, December 8, 2015 at 1:17:29 PM UTC-7, Chris Cullum wrote:
>>
>>
>> On Dec 8, 2015 10:39 AM, "Steve Chan" <sych...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> >
>> > On Tue, Dec 8, 2015 at 7:09 AM, Jason Hartman <rjason...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> There already is a modern version. It's called a bmx u-brake. Some are even available with direct cable attachment. They're aren't as light weight as the raids, but all the problems that you cite have been addressed. 
>> >
>> >
>> >    This is interesting that they also got the direct cable mounting in - I feel like the BMX and Mountain biking worlds are a source for a lot more innovation than the rando scene.
>> >
>> Yes I've seen those BMX brakes put out as an option but to my eye they look bulky and industrial, not something that would look appropriate on an elegant rando bike.
>>
>> Something like the Tektros but optimized for large volume tires would be a nice option. If the inside radius of the curve of the arms was roughly 30mm or greater it would clear 42mm tires with fenders nicely. Fitting standard, easy set up road pads would also be a welcome feature.
>> > http://www.bmxguru.com/products/black-ops-the-clamp-bmx-u-brake-set-black-rear-lever-caliper
>> > http://en.hollandbikeshop.com/bicycle-parts-bmx/bmx-brakes/bmx-brake-set/bmx-u-brake/odyssey-bmx-u-brake-evolver-2-black/
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > --
>> > "Sow a thought, reap an action. Sow an action, reap a habit. Sow a habit, reap a character. Sow a character, reap a destiny." - Samuel Smiles
>

[Steve Chan]

   It would be a no-brainer for Tektro to do this - they make U-brakes and they make the direct pull centerpull road brakes.

   If you look at the difference between the "sidepull" U brakes, and the normal U brakes, it looks like you may only really need to replace 1 of the brake arms with arm that has a different geometry and cable mount in order to get a sidepull centerpull:

   Purely speculating, but someone might be able to machine/weld a steel replacement for 1 arm of a set of RAIDs or Dia Compe 750s to prototype how well it works.

   I wonder how that Black Ops brake would look after some time soaking in Greased Lightning and some scotch-britening?

[Toby Whitfield]

The other inspiration could be Charlie Cunningham's "lever link brake". Might be overkill in original form for randonneur use, but a great looking design.

http://www.vintagemtbworkshop.com/lever-link-brake.html

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[Jan Heine]

Another consideration is that your brake must work with a front rack... and that randonneurs ride on pavement and are pretty demanding on their brakes. In dirt, tire traction limits your braking... (Witness rally cars using bigger brakes on pavement, but smaller ones on gravel.)

Jan Heine

Compass Bicycles Ltd.

www.compasscycle.com

-----Original Message-----
From: Matthew J
Sent: Dec 8, 2015 10:46 AM
To: 650b <65...@googlegroups.com>
Cc: rjason...@gmail.com, cullum...@gmail.com, bdcamp...@gmail.com, mark.gug...@gmail.com, ted....@comcast.net
Subject: Re: [650B] Mafac Raid question ....

> I feel like the BMX and Mountain biking worlds are a source for a lot more innovation than the rando scene

Likely influenced by the size of the market.

--

[Steve Palincsar]

On 12/08/2015 11:16 AM, William Lindsay wrote:
> And so, since your production quantities are in the dozens or
> hundreds, those center yoke pieces would probably need to cost between
> $100 and $200 each. That would be my very rough swag at the costs,
> and for that reason I agree with you that it would be too expensive to
> take on. The original similar M.A.F.A.C. pieces, which were forged in
> runs of hundreds of thousands, would have cost well under $1 apiece.
> If we could just get a million cyclists to prepay for a run of a
> million Compass brakes, then watch those prices drop!

Did they really make RAID brakes in the hundreds of thousands? I
thought the RAID came to market very late, long after 650B had declined
in popularity, and well into the era of narrower tires.

[Matthew J]

> Has anyone used the recent-production BMX u-brakes and MAFAC Raids (or the recent Compass homage brake) and can comment on relative performance? Or, more likely, how about mini-V (85-90mm) vs BMX U-> brakes?

Cannot comment on the new ones, but I had the chance to ride a vintage MTB with the Campy Euclid Monoplaner brakes 

Stopped the heck out of the bike.  One would hope the new ones are at least as good as these dinosaurs.  

To Chris Cullom's point, it is a bulky and ugly brake, interesting only because it is Campy.  

[Marc Pfister]

On Tuesday, December 8, 2015 at 1:17:29 PM UTC-7, Chris Cullum wrote:

Yes I've seen those BMX brakes put out as an option but to my eye they look bulky and industrial, not something that would look appropriate on an elegant rando bike.

The average BMX U brake is very close in overall dimensions to a Raid. The arms sit a little higher but the leverage ratio ends up about the same:

https://flic.kr/p/rd2uP4

The problem with them in a rando setting is that the pivot is larger (9mm) and then the arms have much more material around the pivot plus there's usually a spring there with a cover. So the brakes end up a good deal narrower right about where you want some extra clearance. From memory I think it would be fine with a 45-50mm fender, but the brake would look out of proportion. They would look better with a 50-55mm tire, but wouldn't work well with a matching size fender.

- Marc

[Steve Palincsar]

I've forgotten -- exactly what is the problem we're trying to solve with these brakes?  If the problem is flexy brake cable hangers, perhaps a simpler solution would be to use a brake cable hanger that isn't flexy, like this one here, and just go and use the RAIDs.

[ted]

When you pull the lever there is flex in the break after the pads hit the rim. If you apply a foreword force to the bike with the break applied there is flex in the break in a different direction. If I understand correctly you are talking about flex in the second sense.

No doubt different folks feel differently about brake squeal. For me it is nearly intolerable and I will not put up with it on an ongoing basis. With my yoke mounted front Raid using stock pad holders and pads from Compass I was able to get good squeal free breaking for a while but it seemed in time the noise would return. I am currently using VO pad holders that have thiner pads and are easy to adjust for toe in (at leas I found it easy). With those pad holders the brake has been working well and quietly for quite some time. I do not know if the thiner pad plays a roll in the quiet, or if it is just being able to get the toe in right. Unfortunately those pad holders don't fit close to the arms and therefore the max opening between the pads is compromised such that an inflated 40+ tire no longer fits easily through the opened break.

Having used the Raid for a part of one winter and a whole summer I am close to concluding that it's benefits are outweighed by its problems. Which I find disappointing because I want to like it.

[Jeffrey Kane]

Ted,

That's interesting. I've been frustrated by squeal with the Compass CP's (brazed mounted) as well. It comes and goes and I feel much the same as you about it -- so much so that I too purchased a set of the VO adjustable pad holders -- but haven't installed them yet. I'll be bummed for sure to find that they don't allow for a 42mm tire to pass without difficulty.

[Ryan Watson]

FYI: I'm using the toe-in-able VO holders on my Raids and have no problem getting Hetres in and out.

Ryan

[Mark Guglielmana]

Same here, no problems with VO pads on RAIDs and Hetres. RAIDs are almost ridiculously wide. I did have to use MAFAC bake pads on some cantilevers on one bike to get Hetres to work on a relatively narrow fork.

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Mark Guglielmana

[Ray Varella]

I've used the old style Scott/Matthauser cantilever pads on my raids for over a decade with no squealing whatsoever.

They stop great in wet or dry conditions.

Ray

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Ray Varella

IAABC Parrot Division

Supporting Member

[Brad]

I have had a similar no squeal experience with Kool Stop Thinline smooth stud pads on a Mafac Racer.  I am rolling with tandem weight on a single, so if it was gonna squeal, I am the guy to do it.

[Jeffrey Kane]

Mark and Ryan: good to know. I just tried to eyeball it without disassembling everything and it looked like Ted was right -- so I'm psyched (again) to possibly have an option.  

Some observations:

I did notice that you'll pick up approx 2mm of space per side if you replace the weird navy blue pads that VO supplied for a standard set of salmon Kool Stops.

I'm also wondering if you could replace the fat concave washer with a skinnier one to make a little more spread room  -- maybe by switching out parts form another set of standard Canti / V-Brake Kool Stops? (though that might push the threaded rod deeper into the pad holder) ... oy.

And here's a big one: why stick with that straight 4 dot block anyway? Why not try a modern rework of the pad surface shape along the lines of all the other successful Kool Stop pads -- meaning a flatter contact surface with those angled arrow shaped cuts and that flared hook on the end that essentially forces a toe-in? Help me here -- but might that not help with the MAFAC / Compass squeal issue?

Lastly -- what a weird bunch of dudes we are -- able to chat about odd little no longer manufactured parts that we all squirrel away like its normal ... or something.

[ted]

Ryan and Mark

I have my pad holders slammed to the absolute top of the slots, which I think gives a narrower max opening than one gets with the holders further down. 

regards

Ted

[ted]

Jeffrey,

Another option for increasing the max opening with VO pad holders I am considering is to shorten the collar around the post that keeps the pad holder away from the brake arm. I am not sure this would be safe, but it might be.

regards

Ted

[Nick Payne]

Our touring tandem (now 28 years old) was built for U-brakes and has always used Deore XT U-brakes. We've never had any stopping or squealing problems, and the two of us plus the bike and a full touring load total about 400lbs. The brakes are paired with Suntour Superbe Pro non-aero levers.

The tandem also has an Arai drum brake on the rear hub, but that only gets used on long mountain passes where the rim brakes tend to overheat during prolonged braking.

Nick

[ted]

As best I can tell from looking at various threads some folks have no trouble at all with Raids squealing, and other just cant get them to keep quiet no mater what they try. I have not been able to discern why different people seem to have such disparate experiences with them. In this regard it seems to me that Raids are a bit like cr720 canti's, some swear by them others at them.

[Steve Chan]

On Tue, Dec 8, 2015 at 7:58 PM, Jeffrey Kane <jsk_o...@mac.com> wrote:

And here's a big one: why stick with that straight 4 dot block anyway? Why not try a modern rework of the pad surface shape along the lines of all the other successful Kool Stop pads -- meaning a flatter contact surface with those angled arrow shaped cuts and that flared hook on the end that essentially forces a toe-in? Help me here -- but might that not help with the MAFAC / Compass squeal issue?

   I am using Kool Stop Eagle 2 pads/posts on my brazed on RAIDs and have been shocked to get no squealing at all (I was expecting to get a lot).

   I never bothered to get the period correct replacements. So I can't tell you based on A/B testing if it helps with squeal or not.

[Nick Payne]

p.s. And the U-brakes have enough reach to easily swallow 50-559 or 55-559 tyres plus full fenders. Photo of the bike in touring trim here (it's the tandem nearest the camera): https://picasaweb.google.com/100520469917381690611/TandemTour1989#5784880355845270978

[Jan Heine]

The Japanese builder H.Hirose uses old U-brakes for his tandems. He uses René Herse bolts to attach racks to them - there was a photo in our report from his shop in the Autumn issue of Bicycle Quarterly. All Hirose bikes seem to work extremely well, so I imagine these brakes give great braking power.

Jan Heine

Editor

Bicycle Quarterly

www.bikequarterly.com

-----Original Message-----
From: Nick Payne
Sent: Dec 8, 2015 8:53 PM
To: 65...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [650B] Mafac Raid question ....