Velocity Synergy Rims - UGGG

[Wayne]

I converted a Santana tandem to 650B and love it.  It is our primary ride.   Used synergy wheels and after a couple thousand miles the rear wheel developed cracks on the brake track.  We don't ride this bike in the rain much so there was no noticeable wear on the brake track.   Took it to the shop and they got Velocity to warranty the rim and rebuilt the wheel.  I paid for new spokes the donated the labor.

A month later same thing with front wheel.   While it was being fixed I bought another set of wheels using Synergy rims.  We like the bike and I have found it is really nice to have spare wheels.   

Now the rear on the second set of wheels has cracks and I am back to using the first rear wheel.  So 3 out of 4 original wheels have failed.  All rims were purchased about the time of Velocity's move to the US.  One set have machined brake tracks the other does not.   We use 38mm tires inflated to a little less than 80 lbs (it is a tandem)  Tires are rated to 75 psi Gran Bois Lierres.

Until these rims i have had good service from Velocity rims.  Have others had trouble with synergy 650B rims?

Suggestions for strong preferably silver 650B rim with brake track?  Trying to avoid box section if possible due to use on tandem.

[Steve Palincsar]

On Thu, 2012-08-30 at 12:38 -0700, Wayne wrote:
>
> Until these rims i have had good service from Velocity rims. Have
> others had trouble with synergy 650B rims?
>

I certainly have. Velocity's waranteed mine, including shipping, parts
and labor.

They say they have a new, stronger rim in development. Back last Feb it
was supposed to have been ready by April but when they rebuilt my back
wheel yet again (Feb - Aug, around 2,500 miles) it wasn't ready.

[David Pertuz]

The Synergy rim on my Rawland's rear wheel developed a crack in the brake track this spring, but in my case I cannot fault it, as it had been through 3 1/2 years and 12k-15k miles of year-round use in all sorts of weather and the brake track was quite worn.

David
Chicago

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "650b" group.
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msg/650b/-/eCRHT2NyQ1wJ.
To post to this group, send email to 65...@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to 650b+uns...@googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/650b?hl=en.

[Steve Palincsar]

On Thu, 2012-08-30 at 14:59 -0500, David Pertuz wrote:
> The Synergy rim on my Rawland's rear wheel developed a crack in the
> brake track this spring, but in my case I cannot fault it, as it had
> been through 3 1/2 years and 12k-15k miles of year-round use in all
> sorts of weather and the brake track was quite worn.

The cracks I experienced -- in all cases, and we're talking about quite
a few rims now -- were all through the spoke holes. Here are some
photos:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/97916047@N00/7719108978/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/97916047@N00/7719108616/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/97916047@N00/2719494309/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/97916047@N00/2720318742/

[Ryan Watson]

I've probably had close to a dozen 650B synergy wheel sets over the last 6 years without a single issue. Well, one has a bit of an uneven joint that I sometimes feel when braking, but that's pretty minor.

My experience is on single bikes with 36mm or wider tires, no more than 55 psi.

Maybe they just aren't burly enough for tandem duty?

Cheers,

Ryan

[Wayne]

The rim should be strong enough to handle tires on the market.  The Gran Bois is rated at 75 psi and I run it at just above that.  The rim has no way to tell what is attached to the hub.  It is the air pressure within the tire that pushes out on the rim stressing the sidewalls.  We have had no pinch flats.

[Nick Payne]

Ditto here - I've had a couple of Synergy rims crack around the spoke
eyelets. Haven't had such a problem with the Grand Bois rims.

Nick

[Steve Palincsar]

On Thu, 2012-08-30 at 14:20 -0600, Ryan Watson wrote:
> I've probably had close to a dozen 650B synergy wheel sets over the
> last 6 years without a single issue.

How many miles do you get on a wheel set before you dispose of it?

> Well, one has a bit of an uneven joint that I sometimes feel when
> braking, but that's pretty minor.
> My experience is on single bikes with 36mm or wider tires, no more
> than 55 psi.
> Maybe they just aren't burly enough for tandem duty?

I've had as many cracked rear rims (never a cracked front), all through
the spoke holes as shown in the photos (links to which I recently
posted), and I weigh a whole lot less than a tandem team.

[Wayne]

Uneven Braking is the first sign I see of failure.  The rim is bulging and will fail in the near future.

[WMdeR]

Dear Wayne,

The Synergy rear rims (off-center spoke bed) have had bad reliability in my experience, and failed as Steve P (and many others) have described, at the spoke holes.  Unlike Steve, though, I've not replaced mine yet. I've got almost 3,000 mi on a cracked rear synergy rim since I first noticed the cracks, and the cracks aren't progressing.  I'll probably warranty the thing before winter really closes in.  Whenever I get around to building a spare rear wheel for my main winter bike.

However, I weigh around 150lb, my tires don't get much over 45psi for pavement use (less offroad), and the bike doesn't see severe offroad duty.  And I inspect those cracks regularly.  It reminds me of my old Vanagon (they had a head crack spec. for the watercooled boxer!) I suppose.

Cheers,

Will
William M. deRosset
Fort Collins, CO

[Nick Payne]

On 31/08/12 06:25, Wayne wrote:
> The rim should be strong enough to handle tires on the market. The
> Gran Bois is rated at 75 psi and I run it at just above that.

If the rim is going to be rated like that, the tire size for that
inflation pressure also needs to be specified. A tire being effectively
a cylindrical pressure vessel, the stress in the rim sidewall is
proportional to the diameter of the tyre as well as the inflation
pressure. This means, for example, that a 38mm tire inflated to 75psi
puts the same pressure on the rim sidewall as a 19mm tire inflated to
150psi.

Nick

[Steve Palincsar]

On Thu, 2012-08-30 at 13:35 -0700, Wayne wrote:
> Uneven Braking is the first sign I see of failure. The rim is bulging
> and will fail in the near future.

Do you live in the Pacific Northwest?

I've never worn a rim out at the brake tracks. In fact, I have a bike
that has been in regular use for 20 years that still has the original
brake pads and the original front rim. The rear rim has been replaced
twice on that bike, once due to a cracked sidewall (MA40, famous for it)
and once from pothole damage.

[Steve Palincsar]

Yes, but in the 650B world, aka 26 x 1 1/2, isn't 38mm the default
nominal width? Grand Bois has three 650B tires: 32, 42 and 38mm.
What's the average?

[bikerbob]

Synergy O/C rims are crap.  I used 700C and am very gentle on wheels.  After less than 7000 miles the rear wheel developed cracks around the spoke nipples.  Others I have talked to with these rims also have experienced cracks.  My solution was to ignore Velocity's "warranty" and replace the rim with a DT RR465 which I have been very satisfied with.

... Bob

[rce...@gmail.com]

On Thu, Aug 30, 2012 at 1:38 PM, Wayne <wayne...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I converted a Santana tandem to 650B and love it. It is our primary ride.
> Used synergy wheels and after a couple thousand miles the rear wheel

> developed cracks on the brake track....

Contrary experience to yours and the others. I have two wheelsets
(650B) using Synergy rims. One built up with OC rear, installed on my
Rawland Sogn. The other is symetrical F/R installed on my Olaf. Both
bikes/wheelsets have ~5000miles or more. A fair bit of that mileage
was over rugged terrain, gravel roads, BLM/fire roads a few
trails...etc. The O/C rim has two maybe three cracked nipples, other
than that no issues not even a broken spoke.

Usage notes: Tires: Schwalbe Marathons, Hetres, Pacenti Quasi Motos.
All but the Quasi Motos inflated to ~60psi. The Quasi's ~35psi. The
O/C set is built up with DB spokes DT or Wheelsmith (can't recall).
The 2nd set uses straight gauge spokes. From day one both wheelsets
where tension balanced to get spoke tension within 5-10% of each
other. And, I periodically check and adjust as necessary.

Hope my luck holds.
--
Rod Cerkoney, +40° 31' 2.29", -105° 3' 42.93", approximately #2012 WYoO#

[Jack Fortune]

I have had very bad service from Velocity Synergy Rims. After using two OC rear rims that developed cracks, I decided to switch to the Grand Bois rim. These were 32-hole rims on a single bike - I weigh about 160 lbs.

A friend of mine who is a veteran brevet rider, experienced a catastrophic failure of a OC rear rim while descending a hill - luckily no injuries were suffered.

I'm also in the process of replacing a front rim (4 or 5 years old) due to severe wear along the braking surfaces.

My advice would be to avoid the Synergy rim at all costs - especially on a tandem.

just my $.02

Jack Fortune
Eugene, Oregon USA

[Steve Chan]

This makes me wonder what spoke tensions people are using on their
rims? Maybe there is a difference in tension between the ones that
show eyelet cracks and the ones that don't?

I know that on the Stans ZTR rims, they recommend a max of 95kg
tension, which is less than the commonly prescribed 120kg. I noticed
that when Hiroshi Iimura builds a wheel for me, the tension is quite
low, around 80kg or maybe even less.

Steve

> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "650b" group.

> To post to this group, send email to 65...@googlegroups.com.
> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to 650b+uns...@googlegroups.com.
> For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/650b?hl=en.
>

--
"Sow a thought, reap an action. Sow an action, reap a habit. Sow a
habit, reap a character. Sow a character, reap a destiny." - Samuel
Smiles

[Steve Palincsar]

On Fri, 2012-08-31 at 09:03 -0700, Steve Chan wrote:
> This makes me wonder what spoke tensions people are using on their
> rims? Maybe there is a difference in tension between the ones that
> show eyelet cracks and the ones that don't?

All I can tell you is, Velocity has rebuilt my wheels several times and
has made sure the tension is to their spec.

[Alistair Spence]

Interesting cross section of experiences with these rims. I'm
disappointed to hear of so many negative experiences since I regard
these as my go to rim, very reliable for me.

I built my first pair up around 2004/2005 (I think that's right).
Still running those, with no sign of any cracking.

I subsequently built up two more pairs, which have been in service
since 2008/2009. No issues with those either.

If it helps, or makes any difference, these are all 32H wheels, built
with DB spokes. Two of them use OC rims. Two pair are run with Hetre's
at 35-40psi, and one pair is shod with Paris Moto's run at 40-45psi.
All wheels are ridden year round.

I'm about 150lbs and would say that I err on the side of lower spoke
tension when I build a wheel. I use a tensiometer (Wheelsmith) to help
get a nice even tension but also go somewhat by feel (and sound)
during the final tensioning of the wheel.

Alistair Spence,
Seattle, WA.

> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> "650b" group.

> To view this discussion on the web visit
> https://groups.google.com/d/msg/650b/-/eCRHT2NyQ1wJ.

[William Lindsay]

Four pairs of Synergy 650B wheels in my stable.  So far I've had none of the cracking issues listed.  None of these four wheelsets is over 5000 miles yet, though.  Three of these wheelsets might be in the 3000 mile neighborhood though.  My gripes about Synergy rims have been limited to the deep well making it exceedingly difficult to get a tire to seat evenly.  I've confirmed A23's are excellent in that respect, and have a set of Pacenti PL23s waiting to be built up.  

[Nick Payne]

On 01/09/12 02:03, Steve Chan wrote:
> This makes me wonder what spoke tensions people are using on their
> rims? Maybe there is a difference in tension between the ones that
> show eyelet cracks and the ones that don't?

The wheels I had were built using a Wheelsmith tensionmeter, and when
they developed cracks I checked the spoke tensions again. 90-100kgf all
round. Both cracked rims were the OC rear. Haven't had any problem with
the front rims.

On the subject of the deep well in the rim making tyres dificult to
mount evenly, I think that's more a function of excessive tolerances on
650b rims and tyres - undersize/oversize rims matched with
oversize/undersize tyres. My wife has Synergy 26" rims on her both her
commute bike and touring bike, and the Continental Gatorskin and
Panaracer Hi-road tyres that she uses mount perfectly evenly every time
with no fiddling at all.

[Jan Heine]

At 7:13 AM +1000 9/1/12, Nick Payne wrote:

>On the subject of the deep well in the rim making tyres dificult to
>mount evenly, I think that's more a function of excessive tolerances
>on 650b rims and tyres - undersize/oversize rims matched with
>oversize/undersize tyres. My wife has Synergy 26" rims on her both
>her commute bike and touring bike, and the Continental Gatorskin and
>Panaracer Hi-road tyres that she uses mount perfectly evenly every
>time with no fiddling at all.

Most 26" tires are much stiffer, and thus will assume a round shape
on their own. With the supple 650B tires we run, this is more of a
problem.

The same problem occurs with the Synergy 700C rims when running Grand
Bois Cypres 700C x 32 mm tires.

The standards for 584 mm (650B) tires and rims are just as
well-defined as those for 559 mm (26") and 622 mm (700C).

Jan Heine
Compass Bicycles Ltd.
2116 Western Ave.
Seattle WA 98121
http://www.compasscycle.com

Follow our blog at http://janheine.wordpress.com/
--

[Steve Chan]

On Fri, Aug 31, 2012 at 2:13 PM, Nick Payne <nick....@internode.on.net> wrote:
> The wheels I had were built using a Wheelsmith tensionmeter, and when they
> developed cracks I checked the spoke tensions again. 90-100kgf all round.
> Both cracked rims were the OC rear. Haven't had any problem with the front
> rims.

Thanks for the data - what gauge spokes were they? Just wondering
if the somewhat dodgy rim issues might be mitigated with more elastic
spokes.

Steve

[Nick Payne]

On 01/09/12 07:34, Jan Heine wrote:
> At 7:13 AM +1000 9/1/12, Nick Payne wrote:
>
>> On the subject of the deep well in the rim making tyres dificult to
>> mount evenly, I think that's more a function of excessive tolerances
>> on 650b rims and tyres - undersize/oversize rims matched with
>> oversize/undersize tyres. My wife has Synergy 26" rims on her both
>> her commute bike and touring bike, and the Continental Gatorskin and
>> Panaracer Hi-road tyres that she uses mount perfectly evenly every
>> time with no fiddling at all.
>
> Most 26" tires are much stiffer, and thus will assume a round shape on
> their own. With the supple 650B tires we run, this is more of a problem.

Both the tyres I mentioned are road tyres with fairly light sidewalls -
I just compared the sidewall on an unused Hi-road 26x1.5" with that on
an unused Pari-Moto, and the two sidewalls appear identical in material
and weight. Not really surprising as they're both made by Panaracer.

>
> The same problem occurs with the Synergy 700C rims when running Grand
> Bois Cypres 700C x 32 mm tires.
>
> The standards for 584 mm (650B) tires and rims are just as
> well-defined as those for 559 mm (26") and 622 mm (700C).

But the following of the standards isn't so good. I have Velocity
Synergy 650b rims in my possession that differ in diameter by almost a
millimetre (the older ones being smaller).

Nick

[Nick Payne]

On 01/09/12 07:49, Steve Chan wrote:
> On Fri, Aug 31, 2012 at 2:13 PM, Nick Payne <nick....@internode.on.net> wrote:
>> The wheels I had were built using a Wheelsmith tensionmeter, and when they
>> developed cracks I checked the spoke tensions again. 90-100kgf all round.
>> Both cracked rims were the OC rear. Haven't had any problem with the front
>> rims.
> Thanks for the data - what gauge spokes were they? Just wondering
> if the somewhat dodgy rim issues might be mitigated with more elastic
> spokes.

The wheels were built using Sapim Race spokes. 2/1.8/2mm swaged spokes.

Nick

[Jan Heine]

At 7:59 AM +1000 9/1/12, Nick Payne wrote:

>>The standards for 584 mm (650B) tires and rims are just as
>>well-defined as those for 559 mm (26") and 622 mm (700C).
>
>But the following of the standards isn't so good. I have Velocity
>Synergy 650b rims in my possession that differ in diameter by almost
>a millimetre (the older ones being smaller).

You are absolutely right - for some reason, many 650B rims were
designed by people who don't seem to understand how a tire seats on a
rim.

The older Synergies have the correct outer diameter, but the wells
are way too deep. That caused problems with tire seating. Rather than
make a new die and correct the overly deep wells, Velocity simply
increased the diameter of the rims, hoping that would solve the
problem. Unfortunately, it made it worse, because now the molded line
on the tire needs to go almost right on top of the bead, and it tends
to slide one way or the other.

I discussed this in detail on our blog

http://janheine.wordpress.com/2012/05/24/mounting-tires-on-rims-with-deep-wells/

Neither the old nor the current Synergy rims are to standard.

I have a number of older Mavic 650B rims that are designed to the
standards, and tire seating is not an issue at all. You install the
tire, pump it up and ride it.

Jan Heine
Editor
Bicycle Quarterly
http://www.bikequarterly.com

[Hoffsta]

I suppose this explains why I can't get anything to seat on my ZAC 19 rims. The A23 is recommended, how about the PL23? Tires are mounting to these rims better than Synergy?

Sean

Eugene, OR

[Wayne]

I have used 700C Dyads with 28mm tires at 130+ psi on another tandem
for 10,000 miles. Your method would show that to have put
significantly more pressure on the rim than 38mm at 75psi.

38x75=2,850
19x150=2,850
28x130=3,640

I believe the difference in the width of the rim vs the width of the
tire has some effect on the outward pressure on the rim wall.
Anybody with knowledge on how to calculate outward pressure on the rim
- please chime in.

In any case with both rim cracking and spoke hole cracking it appears
the Synergy rims have thinner walls or a weaker alloy.

Wayne

[Brad]

Here is the problem.  The rim bead seat does not interact with the center of the tires cylinder, but only with less than the bottom third.   Thus the increase in size at the bed with a bigger tire is not proportional to the increase in size of the tire.   When the tire hits something, it doesn't send the force in all directions uniformly ( or does it) but rather sends a lot of that force into the rim/spoke/hub system which is an incredibly strong truss.   The force is also distributed over the whole of the wheel, not just a point load.

Experience teaches that rims fail first near the spoke holes, and not often at the sidewalls.  There must be a reason for that.  If big tires were such a big problem than mountain bike rims using narrow road extrusions should be bursting all over the place.  Are they?

[Steve Chan]

On Tue, Sep 4, 2012 at 1:39 PM, Brad <riendeau...@gmail.com> wrote:
> There must be a reason for that. If big tires were such
> a big problem than mountain bike rims using narrow road extrusions should be
> bursting all over the place. Are they?

Unrelated to Synergy rims, but as far as wide tires generating too
much leverage on narrow rims, Harald Kliems posted the following to
the Bob list recently. The PDF that he references has some excellent
diagrams that show how a tire that overhands the rim significantly
generates more leverage against the rim wall. I've also posted the
Google Translate output after Harald's message.
There are examples on the net of wide tires at high pressure
causing rim failure, I remember seeing a pretty long thread on it as
back as maybe 2007 where a Mavic CXP33 (not a junk rim!) blew up.

On Sun, Aug 26, 2012 at 3:24 PM, Harald Kliems <kli...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Please note that MTB use, even when racing, is not the hardest use case, as
> tire pressure is usually low. The problematic case is: wide tires, narrow
> rims and high pressures, as it is common amongst touring cyclists or tandem
> riders. If you want to calculate the forces, here's a pdf with the formulae
> and an easy Excel sheet, created by someone on a German touring forum. It's
> all in German but you should be able to figure it out.
>
> http://dl.dropbox.com/u/7489636/Einfl%C3%BCsse%20Felgenbelastung.pdf
> http://dl.dropbox.com/u/7489636/Felgenbelastung.xls
>
> Since ibobs mostly seem to follow the Frank Berto/Jan Heine philosophy of
> wide tires--low pressures this shouldn't be much of a problem, especially
> with disc brakes where rim wear doesn't come into play. But it's useful
> knowledge anyway, I believe.



Influence of tire pressure and width on the rim stress
The tour Forum discussion about the effects of different tire widths
and Luftdrücke was on the load on the rim. This particular case was
about whether a MTB rim as the a 50mm tire with max. Designed 4bar, is
a 25mm tire to cope with 8 bar pressure can be bent without them too.
Since I has not left in peace, I once counted something: The bending
stress on the rim sidewalls consist primarily of two components, the
direct internal pressure acting on the flanks, and the horizontal
portion of the circumferential force of the tire. The latter one has
to think about this: The tire section is simplified seen a ring. When
this pressure is evenly under tension. Because of the "ring" but the
lower part is open and there is held together only available via the
rim, the rim must take this tension there. Interesting for the bent-up
in the case only the horizontal component of the voltage at the
junction of tire rim. This is the exit angle of the sidewall of the
rim depends. All horizontal forces are not neglected because they
hardly relevant for the question have. The calculation is based only
on one edge of the rim on the other hand, the burden of course
identical. Exposure to peripheral force: The exit angle α the sidewall
can be calculated geometrically: with b = B = inside rim width tire
width
The tangential force is calculated according to the boiler formula as
follows: p = tire pressure (1 bar corresponds to 0.1 N/mm2) D =
Outside diameter of the rim horizontal component FU_X obtained cos α
available via:
Calculation of the resulting force in the middle of the edge: the area
of ​​the inside of the rim edge A is: h = height inner rim flank This
results in the resultant force Fp_R:
Calculation of the moment on the rim: at the foot of the Cross, the
forces lead to a bending moment to the outside: It all looks a mess
out in a formula, you get this: h = internal height rim flank p = tire
pressure (1 bar corresponds to 0.1 N/mm2) B = Tyre width D = Outside
diameter of the rim b = internal width of the rim means of this
formula, you can now compare what you nicely with the appropriate
tires and air pressure of its rim so exacts. For ease, I've also
created a small Excel document to calculate.

>
>
> On Thursday, August 30, 2012 3:38:15 PM UTC-4, Wayne wrote:
>>
>> I converted a Santana tandem to 650B and love it. It is our primary ride.
>> Used synergy wheels and after a couple thousand miles the rear wheel
>> developed cracks on the brake track. We don't ride this bike in the rain
>> much so there was no noticeable wear on the brake track. Took it to the
>> shop and they got Velocity to warranty the rim and rebuilt the wheel. I
>> paid for new spokes the donated the labor.
>>
>> A month later same thing with front wheel. While it was being fixed I
>> bought another set of wheels using Synergy rims. We like the bike and I
>> have found it is really nice to have spare wheels.
>>
>> Now the rear on the second set of wheels has cracks and I am back to using
>> the first rear wheel. So 3 out of 4 original wheels have failed. All rims
>> were purchased about the time of Velocity's move to the US. One set have
>> machined brake tracks the other does not. We use 38mm tires inflated to a
>> little less than 80 lbs (it is a tandem) Tires are rated to 75 psi Gran
>> Bois Lierres.
>>
>> Until these rims i have had good service from Velocity rims. Have others
>> had trouble with synergy 650B rims?
>>
>> Suggestions for strong preferably silver 650B rim with brake track?
>> Trying to avoid box section if possible due to use on tandem.
>>
>>

> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> "650b" group.
> To view this discussion on the web visit

> https://groups.google.com/d/msg/650b/-/OhubhX8UeJUJ.

>
> To post to this group, send email to 65...@googlegroups.com.
> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
> 650b+uns...@googlegroups.com.
> For more options, visit this group at
> http://groups.google.com/group/650b?hl=en.

[Wayne]

I am posting an update from another forum that I visit regarding
cracking on Velocity Rims. Hopefully better aluminum will be
available in America.

tandem rider
Senior Member
Join Date
Dec 2005
Location
Indianapolis, IN
Posts
272


Yes, Velocity did say that they had problems with their aluminum. Both
of my problems were on the Aeroheats with 26 x1.5 tires inflated to 90
psi. The Dyads have the same cross section and the 700c tires have
higher pressure. I have seen one Dyad crack but Velocity said that the
cracking is more common in the Aeroheats. Velocity was good about
replacing the rims and open as to the problem.

[pop's]

Wayne - I know you have a big chip on your shoulder about your rims, but give it a break buddy. Your only posts to the list have been to piss and moan about your Velocity rim experiences. I'm starting to wonder if you work for one of Velocity's competitors ?

Pops (have had no troubles with many Velocity rims)

[Bruce Herbitter]

I have two bikes running on Synergys, one on Aeroheads and one on Aeroheats. No problems on any of them so far.

[Jan Heine]

Dear Mike Fabian,

I am just a member of this group (which doesn't appear to have a
moderator), but I appreciate the usually nice tone of this group.

Wayne's posts are not "piss and moan" - they just point out problems
with a product many of us use. His experience of cracking Synergy
rims does not appear to be unique.

Limited rims choices, more than limited tire choices, are an issue
for 650B. Currently, the only 650B road rim that appears
well-designed is the Pacenti rim, yet that is a brand-new and still
unproven design. Others suffer from cracking, overly deep wells,
incorrect diameters, excess weight and other issues. (This includes
the Grand Bois rims we used to sell.) It seems totally appropriate to
discuss these issues on this 650B list.

If you really feel the need to take Wayne to task, wouldn't it be
fair at least to sign with your real name? Then we wouldn't have to
deduce from your e-mail address who you really are - assuming it's
you, and not somebody who hacked into your e-mail account. (In the
latter case, I am sorry to have "outed" you.)

Disclaimer: Our sister company, Compass Bicycles, used to sell rims
and thus was a competitor to Synergy at one point.

Jan Heine
Editor
Bicycle Quarterly

2116 Western Ave.
Seattle WA 98121

http://www.bikequarterly.com

Follow our blog at http://janheine.wordpress.com/

At 12:40 PM -0700 9/22/12, eme...@gmail.com wrote:
>Wayne - I know you have a big chip on your shoulder about your rims,
>but give it a break buddy. Your only posts to the list have been to
>piss and moan about your Velocity rim experiences. I'm starting to
>wonder if you work for one of Velocity's competitors ?
>
>Pops (have had no troubles with many Velocity rims)

--

[franklyn]

Hi,

my family has 4 650b bikes in our garage (3 are mine and 1 belongs to my wife). In my garage, currently I have 4 sets of wheels on these 4 bikes and 3 spare wheels (one dynamo front wheel plus one pair of XT-hubbed wheels). All these wheels use Velocity rims--all Synergy, including 1 o/c rear rim, except for a pair of dyads. 

currently, 4 of the synergies are newer and have slightly larger diameters than the rest. I found that they are easier to mount tires on evenly. With a little preparation (like greasing/soaping the beads on the tires and over-inflate them the first time), I have no problem mounting tires on the undersized synergies evenly. The dyads have no problems in that regard. I had seen minor cracks on a previous synergy rear rim (O/C), but that's after 6500+ miles of riding and the braking surfaces were quite concave at that point. I got a warranty replacement for that rim from Velocity anyhow, the replacement is on my Kogswell now, and after 2500 miles, no issue at all. I gave that wheel with hairline cracks around the spoke hole to the person who bought my old Riv Bleriot from me. I told him about the cracks but he thought it'd be a good temporary solution on the Bleriot until he gets a new wheel built up. I recall from talking from him months later that he hadn't gotten around to build a new wheel and was still using that rear wheel with hairline cracks on the rim on the Bleriot.

Obviously it would be best if the rims are made to spec in terms of dimensions, can withstand high spoke tension without cracking, and have reasonable weight/price. I hope that Velocity take these comments as feedbacks and correct these problems in its next iterations of 650b rims. However, in the meanwhile we are getting by on our multiple 650b bikes quite alright.

I am 185 lbs and my 650b bikes perform various duties from brevets (sometimes with unpaved sections), weekend rides, bike touring, to around the town errands like grocery shopping, etc.

Franklyn

Berkeley, CA

[Wayne]

I have 30,000+ miles on Velocity rims (One tandem set had 10,000 when
I sold the bike) and until last year have been very happy riding them
for many years. I am disappointed in the Synergy 650B rims that I
have used but actually posted the quote regarding Aluminum alloy
problems as a bit of good news. I found it encouraging that the
problem was not directly Velocity's manufacturing but rather that they
were the victim of shoddy supply. As I and others have mentioned in
previous posts, Velocity has warrantied the problem rims. I hope that
the issue was caused by bad aluminum and therefore will be a short
lived episode and I can continue to buy Velocity products with
confidence. I thought others might like to know this information.

I did notice that Compass has discontinued Grand Bois rims. I know
Jan does not like to talk about future products but I have hopes that
Compass will begin selling custom designed 650B rims. If so Jan -
Please sell 36 hole, and I would like to suggest providing for a
higher than tradition profile for strength. One concern I have about
Pacenti rims is that they are traditional low profile. That looks
nice but structurally is not nearly as strong as a slight higher
profile rim.

[Fred Blasdel]

On Sat, Sep 22, 2012 at 1:32 PM, Jan Heine <hei...@earthlink.net> wrote:

I am just a member of this group (which doesn't appear to have a moderator), but I appreciate the usually nice tone of this group.

I am the list's moderator — I just had to approve Leslie's reply to you as it was his first post

 

At 12:40 PM -0700 9/22/12, eme...@gmail.com wrote:

Wayne - I know you have a big chip on your shoulder about your rims, but give it a break buddy. Your only posts to the list have been to piss and moan about your Velocity rim experiences. I'm starting to wonder if you work for one of Velocity's competitors ?

There's no need to piss and moan about pissing and moaning, also please leave any conspiracy theories at the door.

[Leslie Bright]

Hi Fred,

 Thanks!  When it told me I didn't have permission, I'd emailed Jan directly (have conversed w/ him numerous times before).  I'd been looking to see how to find who the mod was, so that I could ask if there was anything I needed to do.  

Thanks again.

Regards,

-L

[Jan Heine]

At 10:00 PM -0700 9/23/12, Fred Blasdel wrote:

>I am the list's moderator

I am glad somebody keeps an eye on things. I am sorry I jumped the
gun. You expressed my sentiments well.

>There's no need to piss and moan about pissing and moaning, also
>please leave any conspiracy theories at the door.

Jan Heine
Editor
Bicycle Quarterly

http://www.bikequarterly.com

Follow our blog at http://janheine.wordpress.com/

--

[Matt Surch]

FYI, Stan's NoTubes has 650B rims available now, in two models. I have used Stan's rims for both mtb and road (both tubeless and tubed) for years, and can attest to the effectiveness of their bead sockets. They hold tires very well, and they are true to size. They did experience some growing pains with their new 700c Alpha 340 rims (I and others experienced cracking at the eyelets), however, their service was exemplary; I was sent replacement rims at no charge, no hassle. My wheels weight 1350g; they are very light. The new version is reinforced more. In general, Stan's products deliver as advertised. 

At the moment, Stan's is producing their Crest and Flow rims in 650B (28 and 32h for Crest, 32h for Flow). I assume most on this list will not be interested in the Flow unless you they are riding or designing a bike for a lot of load, perhaps a camper. The Flow is wide and very strong, and would support 42mm or larger tires very well. Because of their specific bead socket design, you always get more volume out of your tires with Stan's rims than competitors'. Like the Crest, which is much lighter, the Flow is a disc-only rim. I am aware many of you are not interested in discs, but at the same time, some are. 

The Crest is quite a light rim. A number of my team-mates use these for mtb racing on very rocky terrain. They are shockingly durable. With discs, dents in the rims only matter if they interfere with retention of the tire. One of our guys is building Crests up for a 26" mtb conversion. They will be shod with fast rolling knobby tires for fast trails (think fire roads), a nice compliment to the drop bars going on the bike. While the sidewalls of the rim is indeed thin, with a high enough volume tire (50mm range for trails, Hetres for roads), there ought to be plenty of protection.  

http://www.notubes.com/Crest-Rims-C54.aspx 

http://www.notubes.com/Flow-EX-Rims-C123.aspx 

Matt

[Anthony King]

One concern I have about
Pacenti rims is that they are traditional low profile.  That looks
nice but structurally is not nearly as strong as a slight higher
profile rim.

Do you mean a higher-profile, box section rim, or a v-section rim. Are you aware of the Velocity A23 I had made in 650B? One reason I chose to have a v-section rim made in 650B is that v-section rims are less likely to crack than box-section rims in my experience.

I personally prefer the low profile, traditional box section rims. More an aesthetic preference for me. The Pacenti's are lovely.

Both the Pacenti PL23's and A23's are tubeless ready, which necessitates a shallow rim well. This means you'll probably need tire levers to mount most tires, but both rims seat tires very well and evenly, whether with tubes or tubeless.

Disclaimer: I sell Pacenti PL23's (not on website but I've been building wheels with them)  Velocity A23's, and Synergy. I also distribute 650B A23's. 

 

[Anthony King]

At the moment, Stan's is producing their Crest and Flow rims in 650B (28 and 32h for Crest, 32h for Flow). 

The Crest looks nice. 

Don't forget Kirk also has a lightweight disc rim in 650B (not quite as light as the Crest, but still) -- the CL25.

And if you need a lightweight disc rim that comes in a 36H drilling, Velocity has made their Blunt rim lighter--it is now called the Blunt SL. 

All of the above are tubeless ready.

Disclaimer, I stock the Blunt and Pacenti rims, build custom wheels with these rims and Stan's rims as well.

[Leslie Bright]

On Monday, September 24, 2012 10:37:53 AM UTC-4, Anthony King wrote:

Do you mean a higher-profile, box section rim, or a v-section rim. Are you aware of the Velocity A23 I had made in 650B? One reason I chose to have a v-section rim made in 650B is that v-section rims are less likely to crack than box-section rims in my experience.

I personally prefer the low profile, traditional box section rims. More an aesthetic preference for me. The Pacenti's are lovely.

Both the Pacenti PL23's and A23's are tubeless ready, which necessitates a shallow rim well. This means you'll probably need tire levers to mount most tires, but both rims seat tires very well and evenly, whether with tubes or tubeless.

Disclaimer: I sell Pacenti PL23's (not on website but I've been building wheels with them)  Velocity A23's, and Synergy. I also distribute 650B A23's. 

Matt, yeah, downside to Stan's is disc-only...  my 650b has v-brakes...



Anthony,
You and I've talked about the Dyad versus the Synergy before;  how would you compare the A23 to the Dyad? And the A23 to the Synergy?  How would you compare those three to Kirk's PL25?

[Leslie Bright]

Edit previous: PL23, not PL25...

[Joe Broach]

A couple or three posters to the thread have mentioned the cost of new
spokes when replacing low mileage cracked rims. Why not re-use the
spokes? They should be good for tens of thousands of miles. Am I
missing something?

That's not to downplay the serious bummer that this is for folks, new
spokes or not.

Best,
joe broach
portland, or

On Mon, Oct 1, 2012 at 11:16 AM, George Winkert <gwin...@gmail.com> wrote:
> My turn to moan about Synergy OC 700C rims.
>
> Last night I discovered small cracks on ~6 drive-side eyelets. ~1500 miles
> on the wheel. BUT, this wheel was built just 4 months ago to replace a rim
> with same problem! 32H, 105 hub, both wheels built by reputable MD area
> shop using 100kg drive-side tension, rider weight = 197lbs Last time the
> shop queried Velocity at length about tension etc. Rim was replaced under
> warranty of course (at my cost for labor + spokes), but this time I wonder
> if it's worth rebuilding again (even with a warranty replacement) unless it
> has measurable thickness in the well greater than the last failure.
>
> Previously, I was using Aerohead OC. With those the braking surface had
> started to go concave, and the spoke holes were showing some stress (but no
> cracks). I switched to Synergy thinking it would be stronger, more durable
> with those cute eyelets. What was I thinking.
>
> George

>
>
>
> On Monday, September 24, 2012 8:49:46 AM UTC-4, Jan Heine wrote:
>>
>> At 10:00 PM -0700 9/23/12, Fred Blasdel wrote:
>>

>> >I am the list's moderator
>>

>> I am glad somebody keeps an eye on things. I am sorry I jumped the
>> gun. You expressed my sentiments well.
>>

>> >There's no need to piss and moan about pissing and moaning, also
>> >please leave any conspiracy theories at the door.
>>

>> Jan Heine
>> Editor
>> Bicycle Quarterly

>> http://www.bikequarterly.com
>>
>> Follow our blog at http://janheine.wordpress.com/

>> --

>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> "650b" group.
> To view this discussion on the web visit

> https://groups.google.com/d/msg/650b/-/XkYyHqjAJfgJ.

[Steve Palincsar]

On Mon, 2012-10-01 at 14:24 -0700, Joe Broach wrote:
> A couple or three posters to the thread have mentioned the cost of new
> spokes when replacing low mileage cracked rims. Why not re-use the
> spokes? They should be good for tens of thousands of miles. Am I
> missing something?

Because no builder will re-use spokes.

[Rob Riggins]

I definitely wouldn't reuse spokes for a customer's wheel, but I
commonly reuse them on my own wheels. I used to think it was a waste
of time to reuse spokes because they were only a few bucks for a
wheels worth. Not anymore.

Rob R.
Minneapolis, MN

> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "650b" group.

> To post to this group, send email to 65...@googlegroups.com.
> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to 650b+uns...@googlegroups.com.
> For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/650b?hl=en.
>

--
Rob Riggins
Minneapolis, MN

[Anthony King]

Because no builder will re-use spokes.

Aren't we talking here about bring the wheel to the same person/shop that originally built the wheel?

This is just the opinion of one wheel builder. If I built the wheel, I should be sure that the spokes have been stress relieved properly and can be reused on a warranty build. If spokes on a wheel I built can't be reused after a few thousand miles I need to find another line of work. 

[Steve Palincsar]

The only "warranty" in such a case would be a free rim. The builder
will charge for the labor -- a flat rate charge, based on using new
spokes, and reusing old spokes would take time and consequently cost the
builder money -- and will charge for the spokes as well.

Now maybe that's not how you do business, but it sure is how other
builders do things, at least in my experience.

[Nick Payne]

Yes, we have sheels with spokes that are now between two and three
decades old and are on their third or fourth rim. When one rim wears
out, tape the new rim to it, transfer the spokes across, and true the wheel.

I think the last time we broke a spoke on any of our wheels was sometime
in the 1970s.

Nick

[Rick Johnson]

On 10/2/2012 12:39 PM, Nick Payne wrote:
> Yes, we have sheels with spokes that are now between two and three
> decades old and are on their third or fourth rim. When one rim wears
> out, tape the new rim to it, transfer the spokes across, and true the wheel.
>
> I think the last time we broke a spoke on any of our wheels was sometime
> in the 1970s.
>
> Nick

Are you talking about wagon wheels or bicycles?
:-D

Rick Johnson
Bend Oregon

* * *

This news has been sanitized for your preconceptions

[Brad]

In looking at this thread, it occurs to me that the rims people have trouble with mimic the rims of choice for narrow high pressure 700c clinchers.  One of the things that has happened is that the wider rims like the Velocity Triple V are not favored, and currently no longer made.  It may be heresy, but perhaps part of the problem is the attempt to put too much tire on too little rim.  Apparently rim production has never been an exact science.  When I was kvetching about the Sun over sized rims a few years ago, someone pointed out that they had similar on off frustrations with some high end Italian 700c rims from a reputable manufacturer. Even the fairly predictable and stable Mavic MA-2 had a bad day when it got anodized as the MA-40.  And in that regard the front wheel I built more than 20 years ago outlasted three sets of rear rims.  ( Not to mention axles and eventually a drive side sealed bearing).

On Saturday, September 22, 2012 4:32:28 PM UTC-4, Jan Heine wrote:

[Max Shtein]

I'm somewhat new to 650b (though not new to cycling and bike tech) but am now trying out 650b for the second time in earnest. In researching 650b rims and tires, happened upon this thread...

A couple of things I'd like to point out / ask about...

1. Are there any 650brims with double eyelets available? If not, would someone be willing to make them, provided we can get enough folks interested?

2. Are people using lower spoke tensions for 650b than 700c?.. And if so, why?

And a correction request:

There is a common misconception regarding what forces hold a clincher tire on the rim. The force comes primarily from the air pressure inside the tube pushing the tire bead into the hook of the rim. If it wasn't for the hook and the bead sitting firmly against it, the air pressure is more than sufficient to stretch and lift the bead off the rim. This has been tested rigorously before (e.g. by cutting the bead of a tire into several sections, remounting and inflating as usual, with it holding on just fine). It would be good if Jan could correct his blog post here, where a paragraph (quoted) is incorrect regarding what retains an inflated tire on the rim):

https://janheine.wordpress.com/2012/05/24/mounting-tires-on-rims-with-deep-wells/

"When you mount a tire, the tire beads need to go over the rim’s hook (above; the foam is used to hold the tire in shape). Tire beads are what holds the tire on the rim. They don’t stretch much – otherwise, the tire would just blow off the rim when you inflate it. The well of the rim has a curved bed. When you mount the tire, the tire beads drop into the center of the rim’s well bed. This provides enough slack to get the last bit of tire bead over the rim’s hook on the opposite side. As you inflate the tire, the beads slide up the rim’s curved well bed until they seat tightly underneath the rim’s hooks."

Thanks!

[Jan Heine]

Max,

I talked to Panaracer about this, and while I am not familiar with
the experiments you quote, they say that the bead is important for
holding the tire on the rim. The hook provides additional insurance,
but there were many hook-less rims in the old days that held the
tires just fine.

In any case, it has little bearing on the problems of mounting tires
on rims that aren't sized correctly.

Jan Heine

At 9:53 AM -0700 7/29/15, Max Shtein wrote:
>I'm somewhat new to 650b (though not new to cycling and bike tech)
>but am now trying out 650b for the second time in earnest. In
>researching 650b rims and tires, happened upon this thread...
>
>A couple of things I'd like to point out / ask about...
>
>1. Are there any 650brims with double eyelets available? If not,
>would someone be willing to make them, provided we can get enough
>folks interested?
>
>2. Are people using lower spoke tensions for 650b than 700c?.. And if so, why?
>
>And a correction request:
>
>There is a common misconception regarding what forces hold a
>clincher tire on the rim. The force comes primarily from the air
>pressure inside the tube pushing the tire bead into the hook of the
>rim. If it wasn't for the hook and the bead sitting firmly against
>it, the air pressure is more than sufficient to stretch and lift the
>bead off the rim. This has been tested rigorously before (e.g. by
>cutting the bead of a tire into several sections, remounting and
>inflating as usual, with it holding on just fine). It would be good
>if Jan could correct his blog post here, where a paragraph (quoted)
>is incorrect regarding what retains an inflated tire on the rim):
>
>https://janheine.wordpress.com/2012/05/24/mounting-tires-on-rims-with-deep-wells/
>
>"When you mount a tire, the tire beads need to go over the rim's
>hook (above; the foam is used to hold the tire in shape). Tire beads

>are what holds the tire on the rim. They don't stretch much -

>otherwise, the tire would just blow off the rim when you inflate it.
>The well of the rim has a curved bed. When you mount the tire, the
>tire beads drop into the center of the rim's well bed. This provides
>enough slack to get the last bit of tire bead over the rim's hook on
>the opposite side. As you inflate the tire, the beads slide up the
>rim's curved well bed until they seat tightly underneath the rim's
>hooks."
>
>Thanks!
>

>--
>You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
>Groups "650b" group.

>To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it,
>send an email to 650b+uns...@googlegroups.com.

>To post to this group, send email to 65...@googlegroups.com.

>Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/650b.
>For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

[mshtein]

Hi Jan, 

Much appreciate your fast reply. 

The experiment I’m referring to was done some years ago by Damon Rinard and Jobst Brandt… It used to be housed on Sheldon Brown’s / Harris Cyclery website, IIRC… 

Yup, see 2nd post here: 

http://yarchive.net/bike/blowouts.html

and the actual test documented here: 

http://www.sheldonbrown.com/rinard/tirebead.htm 

- Max 

PS: Much enjoy your writing and contributions to the community! 

[Joel Niemi]

On Wednesday, July 29, 2015 at 9:53:30 AM UTC-7, Max Shtein wrote:

1. Are there any 650brims with double eyelets available? If not, would someone be willing to make them, provided we can get enough folks interested?

Max,
I asked Kirk Pacenti about this a couple of years ago.  His reply was that he didn't think modern rims needed double eyelets.  We see lots of the V-profile rims without any eyelets at all; with their shape, maybe there's a bit more material up there to spread the load.

I'm definitely interested in a box-section, double eyelet rim.  I see a few advantages: rim tape not stressed so much in its job of protecting the tube from the rim opening, "it's got to help spread the load to both sides of the rim", and (not a problem I've have, but I am glad I haven't) makes it impossible to drop a nipple into the rim.
Joel Niemi - Snohomish, Washington, riding on original PL23 rims, no cracks, but I'm not that heavy

[Max Shtein]

The desire for eyelets probably depends on how much tension one would like to put on the spoke, and quality of the rim alloy and hole machining. Deep section or not, a higher and more balanced spoke tension will result in a stronger wheel. Regardless of the quality of the alloy, however, crack initiation is restrained better by spreading the load over a larger circumference and lowering the localized force, both of which are accomplished with eyelets. Plus the other advantages you mention.

What I'd like to know from Kirk and others is how much more expensive (??) would it be to have double eyelets? Is the tooling different? I would think not -- particularly since its been there for decades already. The materials cost shouldn't be too different, right? What am I missing?

[Fred Blasdel]

On Wed, Jul 29, 2015 at 9:53 AM, Max Shtein <msh...@gmail.com> wrote:

1. Are there any 650brims with double eyelets available? If not, would someone be willing to make them, provided we can get enough folks interested?

There's no need for eyelets at all with modern alloys, heat treatment, design, and manufacturing

2. Are people using lower spoke tensions for 650b than 700c?.. And if so, why?

That would be silly, required tension is a function of spoke count and dishing, not diameter

 

There is a common misconception regarding what forces hold a clincher tire on the rim. The force comes primarily from the air pressure inside the tube pushing the tire bead into the hook of the rim. If it wasn't for the hook and the bead sitting firmly against it, the air pressure is more than sufficient to stretch and lift the bead off the rim. 

You're mistaken, modern tubeless-ready rim designs don't need hooks, and most newer carbon clincher rims don't have them at all. As you inflate the tire, the bead climbs out of the center well onto the taller shelf and is stretched taut, it's not possible to remove it without fully displacing the bead back into the center channel.

[Max Shtein]

There is a common misconception regarding what forces hold a clincher tire on the rim. The force comes primarily from the air pressure inside the tube pushing the tire bead into the hook of the rim. If it wasn't for the hook and the bead sitting firmly against it, the air pressure is more than sufficient to stretch and lift the bead off the rim. 

You're mistaken, modern tubeless-ready rim designs don't need hooks, and most newer carbon clincher rims don't have them at all. As you inflate the tire, the bead climbs out of the center well onto the taller shelf and is stretched taut, it's not possible to remove it without fully displacing the bead back into the center channel.

Fred, 

Thank you for the explanation. Qualitatively, it makes sense. Might calculate the amount of elongation on a typical Kevlar bead to see if it makes quantitative sense. (And I guess in this case they are technically not even a "clincher" rim design by definition!) 

- M