Elephant NFE Experience?

[Steven Frederick]

I've just asked to be put in the queue for the next batch of NFE
framesets. I think this looks like a great bike for the sort of
riding I enjoy these days. I currently have a Rawland Stag as well as
a Riv-inspired custom 650b Allroad/Cross/GravelGrinder/whatever bike.
I think the NFE combines many of the attributes I enjoy in both those
bikes and could conceivable replace them, especially with a 2nd
wheelset. (I feel like my two bikes overlap enough that it would be
worthwhile to replace them with one)

Has anyone compared the NFE to Riv-type medium trails bikes and/or
Stag type front loaders? I'm just looking for some feedback on how
they might compare. The NFE is a frontloader, it appears, and it may
be slightly beefier than the Stag? That's ok with me-I'm not
experiencing any notable planing or compliance joy with the Stag,
though it is pleasant enough a ride. Some have commented on the NFE
being a quick handling machine-I assume that they were folks that
weren't necessarily utilizing a front-loading set up, which would
presumable settle that down a bit.

Worth noting-I also have a Kogswell PR with the 40mm fork that I use
for a commuter. I theorize that the NFE might be somewhere between
the PR and the Stag in tubing thickness/compliance. This would also
be okay with me.

Thanks for any thoughts or experience.

Steve

[Nate P]

I also have a Stag and a custom (canti) NFE. As you note, there is certainly overlap but both bikes have their strengths. For me, having the Haulin Colin rack, lowrider attachments, and Switchback Hill tires on the NFE (plus room for fenders) makes it a more versatile rig in terms of the range of terrain and experiences it can tackle. Fork compliance with the stock Stag fork is roughly equal to the canti fork on the NFE: not especially cushy or stiff. Can't say much about the tubing except that I think you're correct that the on tubing on the NFE is a bit more stout. 

For me, the Stag has become a dedicated randonneuring bike with a bit more top end gearing, while the NFE will be my allroad, S24O, occasional singletrack bike. The Stag could do all the things on that list, but the NFE does them better. Conversely, the NFE could be my only randonneuring bike and I would probably be quite happy. If you're OK with considerable overlap, I say go for it. If you're overlap averse, I think you'll probably want to replace one of the others once you get the NFE. 

I don't mind the overlap in my stable. I love both bikes. I will say the Stag has gotten much less use since I got the NFE. I guess that says something...

-Nate

Ann Arbor, MI

[rcnute]

The NFE is a bit more precise handling and slightly livelier than the Gen2 P/R with 40mm trail.  And has more cool features.  But ride-wise they felt pretty similar to me. 

Ryan

[Steven Frederick]

Thanks guys-that largely confirms my assumptions about the NFE.  I'll have a few months to think about it, according to their schedule/waiting list.

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[Stevef]

Just bumping this to see if anyone has anything to add.  Now I'm wondering how the NFE will compare to the new Rawland Ravn, too!

On Wednesday, November 25, 2015 at 7:46:36 AM UTC-5, Stevef wrote:

[RiderM-NYC]

Nate, any issues you've run into with the combination of the NFE fork, trail / geo, disc brakes, and — especially — quick release setup with a S24O amount of front load?

[Nate P]

I'm on an original (pre-stock) canti-NFE so I can't speak to any disc issues. No issues to speak of though. I like it more every time I swing a leg over it!

[Colin B]

Glen moved the dropout braze-on up the fork a smidge on my batch 3 Stock NFE, which makes fender and rack mounting easier around the disc brake caliper. Photo attached of it set up with Spyres, Planet bike fenders, and a tubus Tara. I put the QR on the drive side mostly to make it easier to avoid touching the rotors with my fingers when the wheel comes off.

Handling wise, it does great with a big rando bag and a pair of small panniers 90% of the time. I find if my tire pressure gets too low when the front is loaded up, I get a little shimmy. Not really a problem but certainly not ideal.

That said, this is my first low trail bike, and the hype about how front loading keeps the bike feeling sporty really holds up.

[Fred Blasdel]

On Fri, Feb 26, 2016 at 6:27 AM, RiderM-NYC <w...@jwoo.org> wrote:

Nate, any issues you've run into with the combination of the NFE fork, trail / geo, disc brakes, and — especially — quick release setup with a S24O amount of front load?

The quick release does not cause any trouble with any amount of front load on my disc NFE, even riding off-road for several miles with a full pony keg (90 pounds)

The only issue I've had with the QR is crushing a SON dynamo connector that got caught reinstalling the wheel

Thru-axles do not solve a problem on rigid steel forks, unless they're suspension-corrected or for a tandem

[Fred Blasdel]

On Thu, Feb 25, 2016 at 7:36 AM, Stevef <stl...@gmail.com> wrote:

Just bumping this to see if anyone has anything to add.  Now I'm wondering how the NFE will compare to the new Rawland Ravn, too!

The Ravn was originally advertised as having smaller+lighter tubing that everyone was excited about, but they've been tight-lipped since the switch to disc brakes.

Using a plate in the driveside chainstay would be a cool compromise if it was used to make the rear end 25mm shorter, but instead it's 5mm longer than the NFE without any additional tire clearance.

The posted geometry chart also doesn't add up. You can't have the ETT, Reach, and STA all change in even increments together through the sizes: http://bicycletimesmag.com/rawland-unveils-two-new-adventure-bikes/

[@cyclocult]

A few people alerted me to this thread because of some misinformation about Rawland recently posted here, and they asked me to respond. Clarity below... [Also: I've got nothing but respect for Glen Copus.]

On Monday, February 29, 2016 at 2:46:53 PM UTC-8, Fred Blasdel wrote:

On Thu, Feb 25, 2016 at 7:36 AM, Stevef <stl...@gmail.com> wrote:

Just bumping this to see if anyone has anything to add.  Now I'm wondering how the NFE will compare to the new Rawland Ravn, too!

The Ravn was originally advertised as having smaller+lighter tubing that everyone was excited about, but they've been tight-lipped since the switch to disc brakes.

That was the canti Ravn, which we canceled [and switched factories because of] after multiple prototype issues that were unacceptable. As for the production disc Ravn, we were waiting for the launch party last month. Some rCOG threads have had tube specs for a while. Tubing is custom-drawn, heat-treated [and annealed and stress-relieved, etc.], triple-butted 4130. TT and DT are .8/.5/.8/1.0. TT is 28.6; DT is 34.9; HT is 1 1/8". The bikes have passed CEN testing.

Using a plate in the driveside chainstay would be a cool compromise if it was used to make the rear end 25mm shorter, but instead it's 5mm longer than the NFE without any additional tire clearance.

Ravn has a bit more clearance based on NFE details online. Max 650B/27.5" clearance for Ravn is stated at 58mm, so about a 2.3". Versus the NFE's currently stated 2.1". As for the rear end and the chainstay yoke [if that's what was meant by "plate"], we have a lot more design flexibility with our variable yoke design, with excellent strength/durability and clearance. [And, believe it or not, the 440mm chainstay length was on purpose, not a byproduct.]

The posted geometry chart also doesn't add up. You can't have the ETT, Reach, and STA all change in even increments together through the sizes: http://bicycletimesmag.com/rawland-unveils-two-new-adventure-bikes/

Our geometry adds up. Some folks have tried to run numbers thru BikeCAD and come out confused because of user error but then later reported confirmation; also, some numbers are rounded up to the nearest practical number—common practice. Regardless, BikeCAD is not a highly accurate drawing tool like the Bentley engineering software that we use. We also have exhaustively detailed schematics from our engineers that clearly illustrate and add up the geo, plus there's the bikes themselves, physical proof as long as one has accurate measuring tools.

As for QR vs. TA, former is open and clamped, latter is closed and bolted. We chose what we believe is best for disc and in general.

For those curious, we now use the same factory/engineers as Jones.

—jeremy @ rawlandcycles dot com [if anyone cares to write me, note that I get way too much e-mail and it'll be a while]

[Fred Blasdel]

On Tue, Mar 1, 2016 at 12:56 PM, @cyclocult <jeremy.k...@gmail.com> wrote:

As for the production disc Ravn, we were waiting for the launch party last month. Some rCOG threads have had tube specs for a while. Tubing is custom-drawn, heat-treated [and annealed and stress-relieved, etc.], triple-butted 4130. TT and DT are .8/.5/.8/1.0. TT is 28.6; DT is 34.9; HT is 1 1/8". The bikes have passed CEN testing.

So it's custom-drawn to be heavier and stiffer than the NFE, with a thick end added to the main tubes, and a double-oversized downtube like a hardtail. I notice that the Ravn fork has a very tall crown and a large fender gap, what's the axle-to-crown? Is it intended to be suspension-corrected?

Ravn has a bit more clearance based on NFE details online. Max 650B/27.5" clearance for Ravn is stated at 58mm, so about a 2.3". Versus the NFE's currently stated 2.1".

The production NFE has CPSC clearances for a 58mm tire. My prototype currently has 80mm fenders on it!

 

As for the rear end and the chainstay yoke [if that's what was meant by "plate"], we have a lot more design flexibility with our variable yoke design, with excellent strength/durability and clearance.

Ah so it is symmetric, it's hard to find  good details as your launch had more questions than answers. Are the pieces not thick plate? https://www.instagram.com/p/BBkZl57wDoh/ 

Our geometry adds up. Some folks have tried to run numbers thru BikeCAD and come out confused because of user error but then later reported confirmation; also, some numbers are rounded up to the nearest practical number—common practice. Regardless, BikeCAD is not a highly accurate drawing tool like the Bentley engineering software that we use.

I was one of the people who ran the trigonometry on the canti-Ravn charts. I did it multiple times with different assumptions about where the measurements were taken and none of them reconciled, as if a wish-list was typed into Excel and drawn with the "fill handle".

The new charts on the Bicycle Times teaser look much more realistic, but the sizing still doesn't add up

We also have exhaustively detailed schematics from our engineers that clearly illustrate and add up the geo

So post the final drawings on your own website like Kogswell did, not just artsy photography and viking-ified prose on social media.

As for QR vs. TA, former is open and clamped, latter is closed and bolted. We chose what we believe is best for disc and in general.

It's certainly on-trend, but the latest 12x100 "road" version is more hype than reality at the moment. The bike has internal wire routing but there are no dynamos to fit it?

[@cyclocult]

Hahaha, this guy... Not going to waste time going back and forth with a troll.

[Jan Heine]

Jeremy,

I very much respect what you and Sean at Rawland are trying to do. Like many others, I've helped Rawland as much as I could, and I am very much looking forward to the Ravn that Sean promised BQ as a test bike.

But please don't call Fred a "troll". He is asking questions that are legitimate. He is trying to understand the design of your bikes, based on the information you released. If you don't know the answer or don't want to disclose that information, just say so. But let's not resort to "ad hominem" attacks.

Many people are excited about the Ravn. When you announce products long before they are available, you ask us to rely on the information you provide, rather than form our own opinions by looking at the bikes and riding them. If you prefer not to answer detailed questions, you can develop and manufacture the product behind closed doors. When it's ready, present it to the world, and let us form our own opinions.

Best regards,

Jan Heine

Editor

Bicycle Quarterly

www.bikequarterly.com

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[Jeremy Keith Spencer]

You misunderstand where I'm coming from.

To be honest, Jan, I have a lot of respect for you and have always found you friendly, impassioned, and circumspect, both in person and online, but this guy Fred's manner on forums is what's "ad hominem," often extremely antagonistic and rude, bespeaking a very insecure individual who is in his way "bullying." To me, trolling begins the moment you start talking to others online in a way that you would not if the encounter were in person [without possibly coming to blows, that is]. "If it quacks like a duck..." Needless to say, it's incredibly off-putting. It's disrespectful, unacceptable, and unnecessary. He would get answers and civil discourse if he were simply polite [or even just straightforward], like 99+% of the people I encounter on Google forums. I have read so many of his comments over the years that were so passive-aggressive and outright aggressive, I refuse to engage him. You live only once, and I don't waste time on people like him. I have heard and read this sentiment echoed by many others, who also refer to him as a troll who trolls the forums. From the many comments of his that I have read, I've found that his approach is often divisive and know-it-all but at the same time ill-informed and clearly yet inconsistently biased. He seems to assume total knowledge and unimpeachable foresight. Not quite scientific. Very pretentious and presumptuous.

To be clear, I didn't call him a troll because of his questions but because of his fast and loose opining and the cocky, combative way he asked questions, which I've encountered far too many times before. There's also the fact that he very clearly implied that we're lying about geometry and that with the disc Ravn we're trying to build a beefier Elephant or something [which is especially hilarious given that Alex Wetmore's Gifford came first, soon followed by the independent developments of the Rawland rSogn and John Speare's proto-NFE Elephant custom]. It's not even worth a response, since he seems to feed on pointlessly/endlessly arguing on forums. 

We have been doing our best to answer the many [politely asked] questions on rCOG. We had a little relaunch party and shot the final sample bikes for this production run, which will feature a number of tweaks. We don't see a problem with some time passing between a little party and full info and availability come spring. And now, among many other things, we're working on our new website, which will have pretty exhaustive info. We are a very small crew who all have other work/jobs. These things take time, and in the meantime we're sharing some photos and info and fielding questions as we can. I am doing my best to keep up with rCOG when I have time. The bikes will be here this spring, and you're definitely on my media review list.

Jeremy K. Spencer
Rawland Cycles

[Mark Guglielmana]

I'm backing Jeremy on this one. The worst type of troll is the one who comes across as possibly reasonable, luring you into what you thought was a civil discourse, but becomes a long winded "I know all, you are an idiot" response. The internet's anonymity supports this type of person. The person who is definitely not a troll uses their actual name in posts. When I see "Jan Heine" as the author, I know exactly who it is. Jeremy, the same - everything you post online will be parsed for technical accuracy, proper grammar, customer relationships, etc. Bottom line, your entire business is on the line with every post. Rawland has developed a reputation for building a forward thinking bike. Many await with baited breath the latest evolution of the "all road" bike. 

That said, Jan is in the same situation. I have a short list of those that I consider to use the "scientific method", and are willing to change their model of the world based on data and evicence - which is really the basis of the scientific method, right? Jan is obviously one of them. 

But humans are not completely logical creatures, one could argue that we're barely logical at all. So there are "trolls", "newbies", and all sorts of people that we can bucket individuals into, and people grow and evolve. 

Character, however, seems to be the one thing I've found to be pretty consistent in people. People with high character seem to be very willing to say "I was wrong". We bucket those as "trolls" as those who do not appear to have the ability to mouth or write these simple words.  

 

[Jan Heine]

I am sorry, I had no intention to offend.

Fred is the moderator of this list. We all have our strengths and weaknesses, but to call the moderator a troll doesn't seem to advance the discussion. If you don't like him, don't post on his list.

I look forward to the Ravn and other bikes that are intended for the riding we enjoy. Let's return to discussing bikes. I have found this list refreshingly free of trolls. Let's keep it that way!

Best regards,

Jan Heine

[Alex Wetmore]

Fred Blasdel isn't hiding behind a fake name or anonymity.  His name is right there for everyone to see.

I don't always agree with his posting style, but I do think that the questions about the design raised here were valid.  I wouldn't characterize him as a troll.

Fred is also one of the (quiet) 650B list moderators, he helps me keep the moderation queue under control and that helps to keep the list running.

alex

---

From: 65...@googlegroups.com <65...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Mark Guglielmana <mark.gug...@gmail.com>
Sent: Tuesday, March 1, 2016 7:36 PM
To: 650b
Cc: hei...@earthlink.net; stl...@gmail.com

Subject: Re: [650B] Re: Elephant NFE Experience?

 

I'm backing Jeremy on this one. The worst type of troll is the one who comes across as possibly reasonable, luring you into what you thought was a civil discourse, but becomes a long winded "I know all, you are an idiot" response. The internet's anonymity supports this type of person. The person who is definitely not a troll uses their actual name in posts. When I see "Jan Heine" as the author, I know exactly who it is. Jeremy, the same - everything you post online will be parsed for technical accuracy, proper grammar, customer relationships, etc. Bottom line, your entire business is on the line with every post. Rawland has developed a reputation for building a forward thinking bike. Many await with baited breath the latest evolution of the "all road" bike. 

[Will Morris]

To me, as a new(ish) member of this list, Fred's tone came off as rude and aggressive. Felt like there was another agenda going on. Not what I would expect from a moderator. Even if the questions are legitimate, it's important to stay civil. 

That said, if you represent a company trying to establish a reputation, don't get dragged into public personal attacks. You rarely come off well. Just make a great product and communicate in a responsive, positive, accurate manner. 

Anyway, my $0.02, and psyched to see the final product.

- Will

[Jeremy Spencer]

Thanks, Jan. But to know he's the moderator makes his behavior all the more egregious. Unbelievable. 

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[Steve Chan]

Hi Jeremy,

   Fred is definitely an abrasive character, but he's also very knowledgeable and willing to share what he knows (albeit often with some barbs). He isn't a troll in the sense that he is unconcerned with the content of your answers and is only interested in being provocative. You can call him abrasive and sarcastic, but he's definitely not a troll.

   However, some very useful information came out of this exchange that I hope you can expand on - it looks like the Ravn has abandoned the flexible tubing that so many of Rawland's fans are fond of, if that is the case, then the framesets that will eventually will become available will be the same way? Fred seems to be correct in claiming that the new tubing would make the bike stiffer than the current Elephant NFE?

   Steve

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"Sow a thought, reap an action. Sow an action, reap a habit. Sow a habit, reap a character. Sow a character, reap a destiny." - Samuel Smiles

[Ken Mattina]

Come on Jeremy, knock off the Trump act and answer Fred's questions.

Where did the spring go?
Where did my hormones go?
Where did my energy go?
Where did my go go?
Where did the pleasure go?
Where did my hair go?

-- Ray Davies

[Tamaso Johnson]

I love my NFE and think it's great, thanks for asking! Oh wait... What is this thread about?

[cyclotourist]

Drumpf!

Cheers,
David

Member, Supreme Council of Cyberspace

"it isn't a contest. Just enjoy the ride." - Seth Vidal

[Hudson Doerge]

Hey Steve,

Getting in on one of these frames was definitely one of the best decisions i've made! i absolutely love mine. i got in on the first run over a year ago and still couldn't be happier with the bike.

as far as comparisons, my NFE replaced a Rawland rSogn. while i really loved the rSogn and wish rawland were able to produce more of them, the NFE is just an improvement on everything i like about the rSogn. the handling is very similar as far as the front end goes. as for tubing as best i can tell based on my riding style and tastes the larger diameter tubing of the NFE is at least as responsive for me and feels much stabler on fast, loaded, rocky descents.

i also have a singlespeed rivendell. it's really hard to compare it to my NFE since they're just different bikes for different purposes. i still love the way my Riv handles even with a front load. it's a great around town bike and it's been used for quick camping trips to the local state park. low trail steering certainly hasn't endeared me any less to my Riv's handling. most times i pick it up for the first time in a few days i think, "man, i forgot how much i love this bike!"

Hudson in ATX

[Justin August]

I'm wondering the following:
- What does it mean for a company representative to reasons to potential customer questions in a dismissive way?
- What might happen for Rawland/Jeremy if the worst (Fred's assumptions) is true?
- How are any of our assumptions about Fred or Rawland/Jeremy's previous actions affecting our responses to these questions/responses?
- What might happen if Rawland/Jeremy present the information that's been asked for?
- What about the assumptions of online behavior are you bringing in to reading questions directed towards your company?

Just my thoughts and questions. No one can answer them for anyone but themselves.

-Justin

[Brian Campbell]

Rawland has always been a puzzle to me. I wanted to buy a Stag, missed the first run and thought there was an additional run coming. Nothing ever seemed to materialize. Then they announced the Canti Raven. Sounded interesting and I thought I would buy a frame/fork when they came out but then that project went in a different direction. While things can change (sometimes frequently & dramatically) in the prototype to production cycle, the one constant from Rawland seems to be weak communication.

The folks who buy the products seem to really enjoy them. I just have never felt that I understood what was going on and frankly, how to buy, what was in stock or not and the website was very confusing to me. Hopefully these things change and the new products are successful enough to get them established. Right now it feels more like a part-time endeavor than a full fledged business.

[rcnute]

Make 650B great again!

Ryan

[Nathan Phipps]

I for one am pretty pleased that 650b has it's very own web feud ;-) 

We've made the big time!

Nate

[Allan Desmond]

Bernie Sanders has a 93 percent Tax on All 650 owners...

Allan Desmond
Desmond Tactical
702.764.8656
desmond...@gmail.com

[cyclot...@gmail.com]

Tires should be free for everyone!

[mander]

We're gonna have the classiest geometry ever!!

[Steve Chan]

   I guess you could think of the old Rawland as a total "insider" bike - they were idiosyncratic, really targeted towards a niche enthusiast group with "refined" sensibilities, often produced as one off small batches and you pretty much needed to be some kind of insider to get your hands on one. Kind of reminds me of hipster clothing outfits like we have in parts of Oakland.

   But as a business, its not really a scalable operation - maybe not even always a profitable one.

   It seems that Rawland wants to scale up the business and sell in more retail channels, with reliable suppliers, etc...

   But it looks like that change has left behind one of the main selling points of recent Rawland bikes, the flexible tubing that makes the bikes quicker, but arguably less reliable in terms of sourcing from manufacturers and being a good fit for a broader, general rider population that may not appreciate that lightweight tubing requires more care and/or lighter riders.

   For what it is worth, I met Matthew Grimm a couple of years back after Kogswell disappeared ( he was/is? local to Oakland) and he told me that if he got back into making bikes, he would not go back to making the flexible bikes that plane - he felt they were too much of a hassle to sell/support compared to selling bikes with more conventional tubing choices.

   In any case, given the lack of a response to the tubing question, I think anyone who was holding out for an "Enduro All Road" bike that planes can stop waiting for Rawland to produce it, and move on to other options.

On Wed, Mar 2, 2016 at 8:42 AM, Brian Campbell <bdcamp...@gmail.com> wrote:

Rawland has always been a puzzle to me. I wanted to buy a Stag, missed the first run and thought there was an additional run coming. Nothing ever seemed to materialize. Then they announced the Canti Raven. Sounded interesting and I thought I would buy a frame/fork when they came out but then that project went in a different direction. While things can change (sometimes frequently & dramatically) in the prototype to production cycle, the one constant from Rawland seems to be weak communication.

The folks who buy the products seem to really enjoy them. I just have never felt that I understood what was going on and frankly, how to buy, what was in stock or not and the website was very confusing to me. Hopefully these things change and the new products are successful enough to get them established. Right now it feels more like a part-time endeavor than a full fledged business.

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[Alex Wetmore]

I think that Kogswell and Rawland both suffer from sharing too much information early in the design process, often not enough late in the design process, and don't continue making their most successful designs.

The rSogn was a great bike with a big cult following, and Rawland only made one batch.  There were minor tweaks that could have been made to improve sizing and features of the bike, but the overall design was a well thought out one that has worked well for many customers.  You can see that the bike is successful because used frames retain a high resale value.  Tweaks are a sign of continuous improvement, killing a popular model while there is a demand is just confusing.

Sharing uncommitted designs with names confuses customers because they never know what they are getting until the bike arrives.  Kogswell and Rawland have a history of asking for down payments on bikes where the design is not locked in stone.  Rawland especially also shares partial information on the final design (not sharing good drawings or full geometries).  This later confuses buyers and leads to disappointment.  I think that this was a bigger problem with Kogswell than trying to figure out how to offer a bike that planes and which meets sturdiness requirements.

In comparison most other similar companies (Surly, Soma, etc) are releasing multiple batches of the bike, and when they announce the bike it has a solid spec.  Some bikes may not sell as well and get discontinued, but at least the customer knows what they are getting when they put their money down.  Sometimes they make improvements between batches, sometimes they keep making a popular bike for a long time.

alex

---

From: 65...@googlegroups.com <65...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Steve Chan <sych...@gmail.com>
Sent: Thursday, March 3, 2016 11:01 AM
To: Brian Campbell
Cc: 650b

Subject: Re: [650B] Re: Elephant NFE Experience?

[Philip Kim]

Agreed, if the rSogn was still around I'd buy it. I think the sharing of designs really causes excitement, and expectations arise. So when the final design looks a lot different, then there's probably some fatigue. I can imagine especially among those that put a deposit down. More than likely those prospective customers move on and life moves on (hopefully).

I know Rawland said they haven't given up on the cRavn. I hope they do well and flood the market with more 26" road bikes and get more people to buy in (XO-1 is still pretty sought after last time I checked), so we have more tire, wheel, frames, etc. I'm already shopping custom and alternatives (which is why I'm on the NFE thread...)

Now, has anyone tried the Compass Rat Traps on the NFE? I know someone has done it (though I can't remember where I saw it). Jan observed that the window of good pressure in RTPs was a narrow. How would it compare to the 650b equivalent?

On Thursday, March 3, 2016 at 2:35:29 PM UTC-5, Alex Wetmore wrote:

I think that Kogswell and Rawland both suffer from sharing too much information early in the design process, often not enough late in the design process, and don't continue making their most successful designs.

The rSogn was a great bike with a big cult following, and Rawland only made one batch.  There were minor tweaks that could have been made to improve sizing and features of the bike, but the overall design was a well thought out one that has worked well for many customers.  You can see that the bike is successful because used frames retain a high resale value.  Tweaks are a sign of continuous improvement, killing a popular model while there is a demand is just confusing.

Sharing uncommitted designs with names confuses customers because they never know what they are getting until the bike arrives.  Kogswell and Rawland have a history of asking for down payments on bikes where the design is not locked in stone.  Rawland especially also shares partial information on the final design (not sharing good drawings or full geometries).  This later confuses buyers and leads to disappointment.  I think that this was a bigger problem with Kogswell than trying to figure out how to offer a bike that planes and which meets sturdiness requirements.

In comparison most other similar companies (Surly, Soma, etc) are releasing multiple batches of the bike, and when they announce the bike it has a solid spec.  Some bikes may not sell as well and get discontinued, but at least the customer knows what they are getting when they put their money down.  Sometimes they make improvements between batches, sometimes they keep making a popular bike for a long time.

alex

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From: 65...@googlegroups.com <65...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Steve Chan <sych...@gmail.com>
Sent: Thursday, March 3, 2016 11:01 AM
To: Brian Campbell
Cc: 650b
Subject: Re: [650B] Re: Elephant NFE Experience?

 

   I guess you could think of the old Rawland as a total "insider" bike - they were idiosyncratic, really targeted towards a niche enthusiast group with "refined" sensibilities, often produced as one off small batches and you pretty much needed to be some kind of insider to get your hands on one. Kind of reminds me of hipster clothing outfits like we have in parts of Oakland.

   But as a business, its not really a scalable operation - maybe not even always a profitable one.

   It seems that Rawland wants to scale up the business and sell in more retail channels, with reliable suppliers, etc...

   But it looks like that change has left behind one of the main selling points of recent Rawland bikes, the flexible tubing that makes the bikes quicker, but arguably less reliable in terms of sourcing from manufacturers and being a good fit for a broader, general rider population that may not appreciate that lightweight tubing requires more care and/or lighter riders.

   For what it is worth, I met Matthew Grimm a couple of years back after Kogswell disappeared ( he was/is? local to Oakland) and he told me that if he got back into making bikes, he would not go back to making the flexible bikes that plane - he felt they were too much of a hassle to sell/support compared to selling bikes with more conventional tubing choices.

   In any case, given the lack of a response to the tubing question, I think anyone who was holding out for an "Enduro All Road" bike that planes can stop waiting for Rawland to produce it, and move on to other options.

On Wed, Mar 2, 2016 at 8:42 AM, Brian Campbell <bdcamp...@gmail.com> wrote:

Rawland has always been a puzzle to me. I wanted to buy a Stag, missed the first run and thought there was an additional run coming. Nothing ever seemed to materialize. Then they announced the Canti Raven. Sounded interesting and I thought I would buy a frame/fork when they came out but then that project went in a different direction. While things can change (sometimes frequently & dramatically) in the prototype to production cycle, the one constant from Rawland seems to be weak communication.

The folks who buy the products seem to really enjoy them. I just have never felt that I understood what was going on and frankly, how to buy, what was in stock or not and the website was very confusing to me. Hopefully these things change and the new products are successful enough to get them established. Right now it feels more like a part-time endeavor than a full fledged business.

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[Alex Wetmore]

From: 65...@googlegroups.com <65...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Philip Kim <phili...@gmail.com>

> Now, has anyone tried the Compass Rat Traps on the NFE? 

> I know someone has done it (though I can't remember where I 

> saw it). 

John@Elephant runs his NFE with Rat Trap Pass tires.  I've ridden the bike, it works very well.  This isn't surprising since the outside diameter of the Rat Trap Pass is similar to the outside diameter of the Baby Shoe Pass.

> Jan observed that the window of good pressure in RTPs was a narrow. How would it compare to the 650b equivalent? 

I find it to be pretty similar.  You want enough air that the tires don't squirm through hard cornering (this happens before pinch flatting becomes a concern), but not so much that they bounce like beach balls when going over rough surfaces.  

alex

[Jan Heine]

I also have found that wheel diameter does not affect tire pressure. The pressure of a Rat Trap Pass is a bit more sensitive, because the tire is about 3-4 mm wider than the Switchback Hill. It's not because there is something that makes 26" wheels inferior to 650B. (Heresy on the 650B list perhaps...!)

Each diameter has its sweet spot based on the feel you want from your bike. For me, that is 700C x 32 mm, 650B x 42, and 26" x 52 mm, each with our Extralight tires. With heavier tires, you'd want to go to a smaller wheel... 

Beyond that, it's personal preference. If you prefer a more stable handling, go to a bigger wheel. If you prefer a bike that is borderline unstable, a smaller wheel will do that. Interestingly, when we tested three wheelsizes with different tire widths, our three testers all had the same preferences, despite coming from very different backgrounds. The biggest problem is that we run out of testers, because they a) become friends and b) act on their preferences, so we soon are all riding very similar bikes.

Jan Heine

Compass Bicycles Ltd.

www.compasscycle.com

[Fred Blasdel]

On Thu, Mar 3, 2016 at 12:54 PM, Alex Wetmore <al...@phred.org> wrote:

John@Elephant runs his NFE with Rat Trap Pass tires.  I've ridden the bike, it works very well. This isn't surprising since the outside diameter of the Rat Trap Pass is similar to the outside diameter of the Baby Shoe Pass.

After three years I've found that the NFE handles noticeably better with a slightly taller wheel OD than that. I used to switch from Babyshoes to ~52mm XC tires for trips where I could get away with that, but have stuck with the Switchback Hills full time since getting them. I think they're the sweet spot, especially after finding the Babyshoes undersized.

I'm curious about the new 58mm (actual size) Schwalbe Big One ultralight beach racing tires, and whether those will feel too tall. Unfortunately there's no 26" version, or it'd be a perfect taller tire for that size.

If you already have nice 26" disc wheels the Rat Traps are still a good choice, but if you're building new wheels for your NFE I think it's foolish to do anything but 650b.

[Adam Kilgas]

Can anyone confirm whether the Compass Switchback Hill will fit the NFE with fenders?

[Fred Blasdel]

On Thu, Mar 3, 2016 at 4:01 PM, Adam Kilgas <adam.rach...@gmail.com> wrote:

Can anyone confirm whether the Compass Switchback Hill will fit the NFE with fenders?

Compass does not offer fenders with enough internal clearance, but they do exist

I've used Planet Bike Cascadia 29er plastic fenders and found they fit well, they also recently came out with ALX 27.5 aluminum fenders that I've tested to fit but aren't quite as nice.

Several people are using Berthoud 700c x 60mm stainless fenders, re-radiused to widen and shorten them. If you used the Honjo 62mm smooth fenders with Berthoud stays that would also work well, especially if you riveted the stays on or placed the M4 nuts on the outside.

I just switched mine to using gigantic Electra Townie fenders: https://www.instagram.com/p/BCBKSgYpZJp/ (your mileage may vary as the stock stays are fixed-length, I plan to make better stays for them soon)

[Nate P]

I have the PB Cascadia ALX 60mms and they fit well enough. They come up short in front but you can install an extended mudflap to provide coverage.

This album has some reference pics: https://www.flickr.com/photos/62958776@N02/23561053270/in/album-72157657426228373/

[WMdeR]

Dear Fred,

Locally, Kelpie Cycles also produces rolled-edge aluminum fenders designed for the 48- to 50-584 tire at 75-584 with Berthoud-style stays. They work well, and are available for 29er/big 622 setups as well.

Best,

Will

[Fred Blasdel]

On Fri, Mar 4, 2016 at 12:34 PM, WMdeR <wmder...@gmail.com> wrote:

Locally, Kelpie Cycles also produces rolled-edge aluminum fenders designed for the 48- to 50-584 tire at 75-584 with Berthoud-style stays. They work well, and are available for 29er/big 622 setups as well.

That's terrific, with a real fender roller! https://www.flickr.com/photos/kelpie_cycles/24807444582/

Are they doing local business only right now? How should someone go about purchasing them?

[Colin Pinney]

Thank Fred!

Currently I am in the prototype stage the aluminum fenders between 70mm and 85mm wide since I still need to work out some of the kinks, find the best radii for different wheel sizes, getting better with the bead rolled edge, etc.  Email me privately about testing one of the prototypes if you would like and I hope to have them available for sale in the summer.  colin(at)kelpiecycles.com

Fenders wide enough for 650b+ and fat bikes are being dreamed of and I was able to make one simple pair of ti fenders: https://www.instagram.com/p/BCVhiXEFFNx/?taken-by=kelpie_cycles.

[Matthew J]

Good looking stuff.  Will definitely be following progress.  

[William deRosset]

Dear Fred,

I do not think Colin ordinarily follows listservs, but you can contact him at

colin<at>kelpiecycles.com

And he will give you the skinny on fat fenders..

Cheers,
Will
William M deRosset
Fort Collins CO
---------- Forwarded message ----------
Thanks, Fred! [....]

[Brad Paris]

This thread has been kind of a wild ride. The fender roller is awesome and, I think, merits it's own post!

Brad

[Peter Turskovitch]

Richard Sachs said somewhere that customers don't buy bikes, they buy builders. He was talking about handmade customs, but I think that also applies to small batch niche companies like the ones under discussion here. This thread has over 1200 views, while most topics on this list have 50-100. People are interested in how builders (or their reps) conduct themselves in public.

[satanas]

+1

And some are definitely more helpful than others... It's also nice when people do what they say they're going to, or at least explain why if they cannot.

Later,
Stephen