WTB: GB Decaleur H70 or H91

[Daniel Jackson]

These seem to be hard to find new these days - wondering if anyone has one sitting around that they'd like to part with. 

I'm looking for the 70 or 91mm extension made for Nitto quill stems.

Thanks!

D.

[Jonathan Pearson]

All I can say is good luck! One WILL show up for you if you keep this thread active. I needed two of them a while back and found one in this group after 2-3 months and another in iBOB after about the same time. Be patient and one will pop up!

Jonathan P.

Seattle, WA

[Brad]

I have one for the stem style with the recessed bolt underneath that  I tried and I am never going to use.
Might that work?
The model starts with a V.
I would have to check which length I got.

[satanas]

IME, they're pretty dreadful things; they do (barely) sorta kinda work, but are fiddly, and not very solid or adjustable. If it was me I'd talk to Mark G about one of his, or to Tom Matchak who makes a "push button" decaleur; both are on this list.

Later,
Stephen (who would never voluntarily use a GB decaleur again)

[Steve Palincsar]

On 10/13/2017 06:30 PM, satanas wrote:

IME, they're pretty dreadful things; they do (barely) sorta kinda work, but are fiddly, and not very solid or adjustable. If it was me I'd talk to Mark G about one of his, 

It's great!   The more I use it the better I like it.

-- 
Steve Palincsar
Alexandria, Virginia 
USA

[William Lindsay]

In my experience, Gilles Berthoud decaleurs are pretty great.  They work well, are not 'fiddly' at all, and are solid.  I think custom built decaleurs like the ones Mark G makes are the ultimate, but I think the GB ones are quite good.  

Here's Tom's website URL for his DockIt system:  http://www.dockittm.com/

Bill Lindsay

El Cerrito, CA

[Stephen Poole]

They're plenty fiddly if you need to take the bag off the bike; the wretched cotter pin must be removed, replaced and not lost; it is essential, unfortunately. I also had trouble with the assorted bits moving about, and with the bag moving on the bike. The latter might be less of a problem with a better (custom) bag stiffener, and some more mods.

The sizes available aren't necessarily going to fit any given setup; Wallbike used to sell side plates with many more holes, and I almost immediately modified the stock bits to get a usable length as even the shortest was too long in my case.

The GB decaleurs aren't even that much cheaper than some of the other options, unless you can buy used, or have one already. I note that even Jan Heine, who generally likes everything French, prefers something else in this case...

Later,

Stephen

[Justin Hughes]

My experiences are like Bill. I have used my AH51 decaleur on two different bikes and it's been rock solid. As in completely fill a size large Swift Ozette with food, tools, bourbon, power bank and lots more (serious weight) and ride washed out Jeep tracks, rooty single track and the like and the whole system couldn't have been more secure. Everything fits like a glove. Maybe that's the key.  

I never found replacing the securing pin much of an inconvenience, but I can see how it would irk someone who expected them to ship with something better. I reckon they should. I literally found some sort of aluminum thingies in a miscellaneous drawer in my house that work great. I think they came with some Roman shades. 

Yeah, Jan Heine uses and sells a decaleur system that his company produces rather than the Berthoud. He also obviously prefers Berthoud bags to Swift's Hinterland. To each his own. I'm not saying I wouldn't use a Compass or Grand Bois decaleur, but I use a threadless stem with horizontal bolts and they don't make one that will work. Even if they did, though, that design would not allow the bag to sit in the right position for me. 

Justin

[David Parsons]

On Friday, October 13, 2017 at 8:59:59 PM UTC-7, satanas wrote:

They're plenty fiddly if you need to take the bag off the bike; the wretched cotter pin must be removed, replaced and not lost; it is essential, unfortunately. I also had trouble with the assorted bits moving about, and with the bag moving on the bike. The latter might be less of a problem with a better (custom) bag stiffener, and some more mods.

 It won't help you now, if you're not using them, but a wider rack cures many of those ills and makes a decaleur revert back to an anti-shimmy & anti-hop device.   (in my experience, a wide enough rack in conjunction with a fairly deep rando bag makes a decaleur irrelevant; I've got ~30k miles of brevets under my belt without a decaleur, and very few of them are with mated bag+rack pairs.)

[Steve Palincsar]

On 10/13/2017 11:59 PM, Stephen Poole wrote:

They're plenty fiddly if you need to take the bag off the bike; the wretched cotter pin must be removed, replaced and not lost; it is essential, unfortunately. I also had trouble with the assorted bits moving about, and with the bag moving on the bike. The latter might be less of a problem with a better (custom) bag stiffener, and some more mods.

Cotter pins are indeed wretched.  I don't use a cotter pin, although I have tried them.  I use one of these Italian paper clips, and it works great:

[Stephen Poole]

Now that I think about it, the thing that retained the rod-what-holds-the-bag-on was in fact an almost microscopic safety pin, not a cotter pin (or split pin), so no hammers required. At first I assumed this was to hold the bits together for shipping - until the bag almost came off from vibrations on a typically rough southern UK "road." The worry was that the pin would either break or get lost, but I was very careful with it, possibly to the point of paranoia.

Paper clips seem like they would be much easier to replace!

Later,

Stephen

[Igor Belopolsky]

could one use some sort of a bolt and thumb-nut ?

[Ray Varella]

R clips, like those used for clevis  pins are another option. 

They are secure, easy to remove and install, readily available at most hardware stores and don’t require as much dexterity as some other options. 

Ray

Vallejo CA

On Sat, Oct 14, 2017 at 7:01 AM Igor Belopolsky <belopol...@gmail.com> wrote:

could one use some sort of a bolt and thumb-nut ?

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[Daniel Jackson]

I’ve had great success with this decaleur through all sorts of riding nonsense. Looking for the hardware to get an existing bag set up on another bike.

So I’ll also purchase an H121 if someone has one they’d like to sell.

Really I just need the horizontal stem attachment. Still looking.

Let me know if you’ve got one!

[Tom Matchak]

Since my Dock-It decaleur has been mentioned in this thread, I should jump in here and point out how well it may fit the OP's situation. The type of GB decaleur listed by the OP tells us something about the radius from the Nitto stem's bar clamp to the desired anchor point on the bag, but we don't know other details such as the stem length or how much quill is exposed. No problem, the modular design of the Dock-It decaleur system allows me to say yes, this will work.

The Dock-It decaleur core that I manufacture is designed to be mounted to the bike by means of a strut/clamp structure that you fabricate to suit your particular bag-to-bike spatial arrangement. You can incorporate the supporting strut into the stem's bar clamp as framebuilder Brian Chapman did on his amazing bike recentely reviewed in Bicycle Quarterly.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/34156114@N05/37658723542/
https://www.flickr.com/photos/34156114@N05/33723192983/

Or you can hang the single strut from the handlebar, as in this example designed to span the gap on a bike with an extra-high handlebar.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/34156114@N05/29358736743/in/

Other Dock-It solutions using the DIY mounting kit allow folks without a metalworking capacity to create a real nice installation. These kits feature an infinite-angular-adjustability mounting clamp, currently available to fit 22.2mm stem quills, 26.0-25.4mm handlebar centers, and steerer tubes in 1" and 9/8" diameters. Some nice applications are:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/23997564@N08/36919481760/
https://www.flickr.com/photos/87833632@N05/33208108393/

In all of these installations, the little docking button is the only thing remaining on the outside of the bag after it is removed from your bike.

While you search for decaleur technology from the last century, you can be riding with your bag secured by a Dock-It decaleur configured just for your bag/bike situation.

(Disclosure: I have a commercial interest in the Dock-It decaleur system.)

Cheers,
Tom Matchak
Glen, NH USA

On Wednesday, October 11, 2017 at 7:52:02 PM UTC-4, Daniel Jackson wrote:

[David Parsons]

The Dockit is a bayonet system, yes?    That's a scheme that in retrospect seems blindingly obvious, and it certainly makes much more sense than anything other than the V-O style drop-in receiver.

[Daniel Jackson]

Well, yes, the Dock-It would work well given radius from stem bar clamp to desired anchor point on the bag. And I own a Dock-It decaleur, but its installation isn't nearly as straightforward as that of the GB variety. 

Specifically, the single anchor point at the large bag that I'm using doesn't provide enough support to the bag without adding metal bag stiffeners or additional behind the scenes ways of reinforcing the bag-anchor point attachment hardware. The inside of the bag is what is missing from the flickr photos linked to in Tom's post. Most other off the shelf decaleurs on the market provide that broad anchor point at the bag on the outside, whether in the form of a long pin (GB) or long metal plate (compass, nitto, VO, even Mark G.'s wonderful creation).  

So while I think the Dock-It system is astoundingly functional and beautiful in its design, I think it best suited to from-the-get-go full custom bags/decaleur mock ups that integrate metal sheeting/plate on the inside back wall of the handlebar bag. Of course I could rivet the anchor point to metal sheeting or a metal plate and then attach to a frame that I create on the inside of my bag, but I would still need to source these materials and wherewithal in addition to purchasing the DockIt (I'm a father, have a full time job, and like to ride my bike rather than monkey with metal sheeting). 

That's my $0.02 and why I have posted to purchase a GB decaleur despite the fact that all the DockIt parts are sitting on my basement workshop bench. 

Someone sell me one!

Best and with the utmost respect for the innovators like Tom out there, 

D. 

[Stephen Poole]

As Daniel points out, the GB decaleurs are easy to install, however, they only do half the job. While they do indeed keep the bag attached to the bike, they do almost nothing to stiffen the bag against lateral movement or rotation. Fixing this needs a *full-width*  stiffener, the great failing of GB bags IMO. The bag deforms and "lozenges" at the corners, and the built-in decaleur fasteners are not long enough to accommodate the required extra stiffener across the back of the bag. Given this stiffener is *necessary* I see no reason not to use a Dock-It or Mark G decaleur; they should be more secure and there is no extra work needed, assuming one is aiming for an optimum result.

The Alex Singer bike I saw on display after PBP had a totally solid stiffener and attachment system, unlike mine where bag flex and deformation negatively affected handling. The GB decaleur might work okay if and only if all else is extremely solid, however, my experience with a Nitto front rack and GB22 was that it was inadequate. The "vertical" version is probably worse in this regard as the mount can rotate in the horizontal plane too, and does.

Decaleurs are one instance where a bit of overkill is going to improve handling; bag movement does not.

The three part system of bag + rack + decaleur is going to be complicated and expensive no matter what, so one may as well make the extra effort to get things right - or use a different bag located elsewhere.

Later,

Stephen

[Daniel Jackson]

Stephen,

By your description, any off the shelf decaleurs does “half the job,” because they all lack full bag stiffeners. Your criticism is not specific to the GB. I.e. your main gripe seems to be the lack of stiffeners as a standard feature in handlebar bags to prevent lateral bag sway - no decaleur provides that.

My point is that the dockit, as an off the shelf option not only doesn’t prevent lateral sway like the rest of decaleurs out there but, by virtue of it lacking a stiffener across the back of the bag, actually requires you to make one to prevent additional stress and bag mutation around the single point anchor. So dockits DO require more work, contrary to what you claim.

I fear your criticism of the GB decaleur conflates overall bag rigidity and decaleur function. Your Alex Singer bag example plainly illustrates this: that setup employed a very solid bag stiffener setup whereas your GB comparison did not. Apples and oranges.

[David Parsons]

On Sunday, October 15, 2017 at 6:23:56 PM UTC-7, satanas wrote:

 The GB decaleur might work okay if and only if all else is extremely solid, however, my experience with a Nitto front rack 

[I'll get my coat]the rack is too narrow; the GB decaleur will work better with a rack that's as wide as the bag[/I'll get my coat] 

[Tom Matchak]

Hi Daniel,

I am sorry to hear that your Dock-It decaleur DIY installation is a bit daunting. If you want to contact me off-list, I am willing to help you with the pieces needed to complete the installation. If I am unable to assist to the point where you feel comfortable that you can install the Dock-It system's bag-side hardware, I will refund your purchase price.

In the beginning, the Dock-It core technology was envisioned as something that would go to the builders, who could build out the various bits that attached things and reinforced the bag. From the early days of road testing, the bag-side structure was hidden inside of the bag just because the design allowed for that. It looked cool to have just that little docking button visible on the side of the bag. Being out of sight, bag stiffeners, made from aluminum strap and/of coroplast, could be made very robust. The little crew of test pilots liked the added stability. This is good, I thought, the builders can do the full custom rack/decaleur/bag package.

When we began to engage some early adopters prior to starting retail sales, we received more interest from the DIY community than we had anticipated. Based on this demand, we designed the DIY mounting kits/components that allow anyone with a hacksaw and some imagination to put together a pretty nice Dock-It installation. All except the bag stiffener stuff, which is left up to you simply because there are so many bag styles out there. (We're talking about bags that folks already own, not the custom Dock-It Ready Bag (DRB) that development partner Waxwing Bag Co offers.)

The challenge in supporting the DIY community is that there's no good way to predict just how much experience, skill, grit, of free time any particular individual has. So we're kind of in a learning mode, trying to gather feedback about the obstacles encountered by potential DIY'ers. Daniel, your description of what has you stalled is valuable, and will help us to guide potential customers down the road.

Now here's the neat part.... The Dock-It decaleur's bag-side hardware doesn't HAVE to be mounted inside the bag! It sounds like you are content to have the long metal strap used by other decaleurs bolted to the outside of your bag. Well, then go ahead and bolt a length of metal strap to your bag, and bolt the Dock-It button directly to that strap. A piece of half-inch aluminum strap, available at nearly every hardware store, will be fine. If interference with the bag flap is an issue, you can use the piece of strap that comes with the Dock-It kit to drop the button to an open location. It doesn't show in the BQ review photos, but Brian Chapman attached his Dock-It button to the strap that was left over from a previous 2-pin decaleur.

I've rambled enough, but I just wanted to get the word out that the Dock-It decaleur is intended to be a joint effort that includes the builders and DIY'ers to configure the installations to fit a particular bike-bag setup. That's why it is designed as it is. And that's why I'm ready to do what's needed to help make your installation a success.

Cheers,
Tom Matchak
Glen, NH, USA

[Stephen Poole]

Quite possibly, but lots of people have them...

[Tom Matchak]

Let me make this perfectly clear... The Dock-It decaleur is not, and never has been, described by me as an "off the shelf option". The contents of the kits are shown clearly on the website, and there is no bag stiffener material in those kits. While we offer a very robust aluminum stiffener that you may place inside of your bag, that is sold separately from the Dock-It core and mounting kits. Throughout the website, we state that it is up to the customer to provide a suitable stiffener for their bag. And we show an example of an internal structure, made from aluminum strap and coroplast, which resists roll, pitch, and yaw.

We have seen some creative bag stiffeners made by customers. One of the neatest is simply a big slab of coroplast that matches the rear wall of an extra-tall Swift bag, with just a fender washer to reinforce the hole for the M5 bolt that holds the button. No fuss, no muss, and "rock solid" according to the owner.

I am in the camp that believes that the benefits of having a good stiffener structure are well worth the little bit of extra weight involved. But that is bag-specific, and that is why there's no "off the shelf" product in the Dock-It system catalog.

Cheers,
Tom Matchak
Glen, NH, USA

[Daniel Jackson]

And I should be perfectly clear: Tom’s design is fantastic and does, functions and installs EXACTLY as advertised. Also, you can tell from this thread that Tom is a great guy, cares about his product and supports his customers.

I apologize for misrepresenting the DockIt as an off the shelf option - that was an incorrect classification of a product that is more creative and freethinking than most.

Best,
Daniel

[Eric Nichols]

I've used the Dock-It decaleur and the Berthoud decaleur, and can offer a few bits of advice. 

Regarding the Dock-It decaleur, it was a fairly easy installation that was well within my comfort zone. I chose a Swift bag partly because I needed a very tall bag, and partly because it comes with a coroplast liner on all sides, which made tying the decaleur into that structure very easy.  I reinforced the coroplast with a piece of aluminum strap from the local hardware store, which I glued to the coroplast. 

Here's the coroplast backplate with the aluminum reinforcement plate: 

https://flic.kr/p/ZpZSAC

Here's the final installation:

https://flic.kr/p/SxLk4w

The whole operation probably took less than an hour. Due to the rigid backplate and the velcro bottom straps holding the bag to the rack, the installation is very stable, even for a tall bag on a narrow rack. 

Regarding the Berthoud decaleur, as others have mentioned, the key is to stiffen the bag in some way. This may be less important for the shorter bags, but it becomes very desirable for the tall GB28 on a narrow rack.  I made a U-shaped bracket out of aluminum strap, virtually identical to the one Mike Kone supplies with Berthoud bags. The bracket serves as the backing plate for the decaleur mount.  

I know Jan likes to use Berthoud bags without the internal stiffener, but I find that it allows the tall bag to sag more than I like. Substituting the stock, heavy pressboard stiffener with an identically shaped piece of coroplast is the solution.  Much lighter, and equal or better performance.  Use strips of adhesive-backed velcro to anchor the bracket to the coroplast, and also to anchor the coroplast to the bag. 

Photos of the Berthoud bracket, stiffener, and decaleur here:

https://flic.kr/s/aHsm74TLso

The safety-pin / cotter-pin retainer can be easily improved, as shown in one of the photos.  Use the largest "R" clip that fits, and put a fob on it so it can be easily gripped with your fingers. I made a fob out of reflective red tape, so I can find it when I drop it in the dark.  Just in case, I also keep a spare clip inside the bag. 

All of these parts were available at the local hardware store for a few bucks. 

Overall, I'd estimate that the Berthoud and Dock-It decaleurs took similar amounts of time and effort to install and optimize.  If anything, the Dock-It was quicker and easier by a small margin. 

One little irritation with the Berthoud decaleur is that it sort-of interferes with the top flap closure. The flap doesn't close neatly over the decaleur crossbar, and the decaleur bracket is in the way of your fingers when when reaching for the central shock cord closure. It's a minor thing, but when you are really tired on a 1200k, those little things can become big things. The Dock-It is much better in that regard: you can place the docking button a little off-center, out of the way of a central closure. 

As Stephen says "The three part system of bag + rack + decaleur is going to be complicated and expensive no matter what...".

...which may explain why so many randonneurs use seat-mounted bags.  Some people love their seat bags, but for me, a seat bag puts the weight too high and too far aft, negatively affecting the handling of the bike, especially when riding out of the saddle.  It also necessitates a stop any time you want to get something out of the bag. That takes time, which adds up over the course of a long brevet.  Under those circumstances, you are trading numerous short stops for more sleep, or a faster finishing time. 

For all of those reasons, a stable bag+rack+decaleur is worth the effort and expense, in my experience. 

Eric Nichols

Newfields NH

[Daniel Jackson]

Eric,

Thanks for this post. I don’t think I need a GB Decaleur any more. Inspired to make the dock it work.

[Justin Hughes]

This is an issue with other decaleurs as well including VO and Grand Bois/Compass. It can be less of an issue if the decaleur is mounted low enough (possible with a Berthoud decaleur if you choose the right extension, but unlikely with a Compass decaleur unless your bag towers above your bars). This is another area in which the Swift Ozette shines. It employs a centered clip for the shock cord on the back, but also two on the sides and the ability to adjust the shock cord easily so that only one or both of the side hooks are needed. My decaleur is mounted low enough so that the top flat lip doesn't interfere and I only use the side hooks to secure the top. It works great. 

And one more in the plus column for the Swift bags versus Berthoud is that they have hook and loop straps on the bottom to secure to a rack. This goes a long way in conjunction with a decaleur to keep things put on bumpy rides with the bag fully loaded. 

Justin

On Monday, October 16, 2017 at 9:30:41 AM UTC-4, Eric Nichols wrote:

One little irritation with the Berthoud decaleur is that it sort-of interferes with the top flap closure. The flap doesn't close neatly over the decaleur crossbar, and the decaleur bracket is in the way of your fingers when when reaching for the central shock cord closure. It's a minor thing, but when you are really tired on a 1200k, those little things can become big things. The Dock-It is much better in that regard: you can place the docking button a little off-center, out of the way of a central closure. 

Eric Nichols

Newfields NH

[Stephen Poole]

Thanks Eric,

Very helpful. Now I know what an R clip is; I'd seen them before in pics but had no idea what they were called.

On 17 Oct 2017 12:30 am, "Eric Nichols" <ericni...@gmail.com> wrote:

Regarding the Berthoud decaleur, as others have mentioned, the key is to stiffen the bag in some way. This may be less important for the shorter bags, but it becomes very desirable for the tall GB28 on a narrow rack.

This still matters with a GB22, in my case on a Nitto M13 rack.

I made a U-shaped bracket out of aluminum strap, virtually identical to the one Mike Kone supplies with Berthoud bags.

I tried that but the "studs" on the GB decaleur cross pieces weren't long enough for the nyloc nut inserts to engage once the alu was in place; how thick was the piece you used?

Thanks,

Stephen

[Justin Hughes]

Never seen them by that name; good to know. I know them as "pin clips" or "hairpins" from my youth working with farm implements. I've been chastised for losing one or two in the tall grass. 

Justin

On Monday, October 16, 2017 at 10:44:27 AM UTC-4, satanas wrote:

Thanks Eric,

Very helpful. Now I know what an R clip is; I'd seen them before in pics but had no idea what they were called.

Thanks,

Stephen

[Steve Palincsar]

A rather ambiguious term.  They're also known as cotter pins.

Cotter pin

while these "R" clips are used to hold  fender stays to eyelets.

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[Eric Nichols]

It appears to be 1/16” aluminum.  As you can see in the photo, the nylock nuts have just enough engagement on the studs.  It is very close.  I used very thin SS washers on the outside, to spread the load on the leather, and no washer on the inside.  There are zero threads to spare.

 

1/16” sounds thin, but whatever Al alloy it is made from is reasonably rigid in this application.

Eric

On Monday, October 16, 2017 at 10:44:27 AM UTC-4, satanas wrote:

[Daniel Jackson]

So I opened a beer, went to the hardware store and installed my DockIt with my three year old son. It took us 3 hours all told, and I still need to put on some finishing touches. My son may or may not have lost an essential part that took us an hour to find, but boy did he learn something about what makes a solid, convenient Rando bag setup.

And he loves the hacksaw.

I don’t need that GB decaleur after all.

[Tom Matchak]

Congratulations Daniel, what a nice conclusion to this thread. And that's especially neat that it turned into a father and son project! I hope that you will post a photo once you've completed those finishing touches.

Cheers,
Tom

[Joel Niemi]

On Monday, October 16, 2017 at 6:30:41 AM UTC-7, Eric Nichols wrote:

One little irritation with the Berthoud decaleur is that it sort-of interferes with the top flap closure. The flap doesn't close neatly over the decaleur crossbar, and the decaleur bracket is in the way of your fingers when when reaching for the central shock cord closure. It's a minor thing, but when you are really tired on a 1200k, those little things can become big things. The Dock-It is much better in that regard: you can place the docking button a little off-center, out of the way of a central closure. 

I presently have one of the ever-wiggly VO decaleurs on my bike, and one of the nice features is that the shock cord closure can hook under the prongs.  Easier to get to than the little hook on the bag itself.  The "U" of the Compass decaleurs might work for this too.  

When I attached the bag-part of the decaleur, I used bolts through an aluminum stiffener, through the bag, flat part of decaleur piece, then through a nylon bushing (wide end toward bag, said bushing found in parts drawers at local hardware store), washer and nut.  The bushing forms a stub to loop the shock cord over; at this location, the bag top is held down, though probably not far enough down for torrential rains.

I do have a Berthoud decaleur to install (winter project), and will note the comments made about the shortness of its threaded studs.  I am looking forward to a non-floppy decaleur, and will use some of those little R-shaped bent wire clips; appreciate the suggestion to have a reflective cord on them, and carrying a spare as well.

Joel Niemi - Snohomish, Washington