Want to buy or want to inquire: Mafac Raids

[William Lindsay]

I'm slowly assembling parts for a project, one that will involve a custom or semi custom frameset.  I am leaning towards trying braze-on Mafac Raids for the first time.  There are lots of them on ebay from one seller for $250 shipped, which seems like gouging.  I lost an auction for a set at a lot closer to $100.  

What is the market value of Mafac Raids?  Anybody have a set they would like to sell?  

[Steve Palincsar]

On Mon, 2012-07-16 at 11:27 -0700, William Lindsay wrote:
> I'm slowly assembling parts for a project, one that will involve a
> custom or semi custom frameset. I am leaning towards trying braze-on
> Mafac Raids for the first time. There are lots of them on ebay from
> one seller for $250 shipped, which seems like gouging. I lost an
> auction for a set at a lot closer to $100.
>
>
> What is the market value of Mafac Raids?

$250 shipped, I'm afraid.

[Mitch Browne]

A set went for $100 + $21 shipping on ebay last week. They all seem to be sold out of France at the moment.

Otherwise $250 set.

Mitch Browne

San Luis Obispo, CA

[William Lindsay]

Yes, I bid on that set.  I had bid $79 to make it a round $100 with shipping.  

[Matthew J]

There are not very many good shape Raids around.  Those who have them know this.

 

As soon as I track down a suitable box I plan to offer for sale a 650B frame, fork and racks with very good condition Raids already mounted.  Guess I'll have to take this into consideration. 

[William Lindsay]

OK, I went ahead and made an offer to that ebay hoarder.  I offered $150.  I'll let you all know how that goes over....

[Harold Bielstein]

I know how difficult it is to find Mafac Raids and how expensive they are so I'd like to propose an alternative brake. Take a look at these:
http://velo-orange.blogspot.com/2010/07/new-brakes-diacompe-610-cnc.html
I think if you replace the pads with Salmon reds I think you would have a sh*& hot brake system. I'll let you know after I get my next randy frame finished.

Hal Bielstein
hkbie...@rap.midco.net

[William Lindsay]

I think the Dia Compe 610 is a nice alternative to the Mafac Racer, but not sufficient to get around Hetres and fenders like the Mafac Raid.  Correct?  The Dia Compe 750 has lots of reach, and is nice and cheap, but I think would be out of place on a custom frameset. 

[Alex Wetmore]

The Mafac Raid also started life as a discount brake, just like the Diacompe 750.  Both take some clean up to look nice, but function well and can fit in on a good custom bike.  I don't really understand why the Raid is more highly regarded.

The 610 CNC is pretty ugly to my eyes.  The prettiest Diacompe centerpull is the GC450, but it barely fits over 32mm tires and fenders and is way too small for most 650B bikes.

alex

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From: 65...@googlegroups.com [65...@googlegroups.com] on behalf of William Lindsay [tape...@gmail.com]
Sent: Monday, July 16, 2012 8:00 PM
To: 65...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [650B] Want to buy or want to inquire: Mafac Raids

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[Harold Bielstein]

"The 610 CNC is pretty ugly to my eyes. "

Maybe, but it has some beefy arms compared to Mafac's. Should give nice positive brake feel.

On Jul 16, 2012, at 10:32 PM, Alex Wetmore wrote:

> The Mafac Raid also started life as a discount brake, just like the Diacompe 750. Both take some clean up to look nice, but function well and can fit in on a good custom bike. I don't really understand why the Raid is more highly regarded.
>
> The 610 CNC is pretty ugly to my eyes. The prettiest Diacompe centerpull is the GC450, but it barely fits over 32mm tires and fenders and is way too small for most 650B bikes.
>
> alex
>

> From: 65...@googlegroups.com [65...@googlegroups.com] on behalf of William Lindsay [tape...@gmail.com]
> Sent: Monday, July 16, 2012 8:00 PM
> To: 65...@googlegroups.com
> Subject: Re: [650B] Want to buy or want to inquire: Mafac Raids
>
> I think the Dia Compe 610 is a nice alternative to the Mafac Racer, but not sufficient to get around Hetres and fenders like the Mafac Raid. Correct? The Dia Compe 750 has lots of reach, and is nice and cheap, but I think would be out of place on a custom frameset.
>
> On Monday, July 16, 2012 5:43:58 PM UTC-7, Harold Bielstein wrote:
> I know how difficult it is to find Mafac Raids and how expensive they are so I'd like to propose an alternative brake. Take a look at these:
> http://velo-orange.blogspot.com/2010/07/new-brakes-diacompe-610-cnc.html
> I think if you replace the pads with Salmon reds I think you would have a sh*& hot brake system. I'll let you know after I get my next randy frame finished.
>
> Hal Bielstein
> hkbie...@rap.midco.net
>
>
>
>
>
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Hal Bielstein
hkbie...@rap.midco.net

[William Lindsay]

Thanks for that feedback, Alex.  Maybe I'll try to polish up a 750 before paying big bucks for Raids. 

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[Jan Heine]

At 4:32 AM +0000 7/17/12, Alex Wetmore wrote:
>The Mafac Raid also started life as a discount
>brake, just like the Diacompe 750. Both take
>some clean up to look nice, but function well
>and can fit in on a good custom bike. I don't
>really understand why the Raid is more highly
>regarded.

Perhaps because many consider them prettier? Or
because René Herse used them on his 650B bikes.
(Herse used Weinmann centerpulls on his 700C
bikes.)

In the end, $ 100 is not very much for an excellent brakeset.

Jan Heine
Editor
Bicycle Quarterly
2116 Western Ave.
Seattle WA 98121
http://www.bikequarterly.com

Follow our blog at http://janheine.wordpress.com/
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[Jan Heine]

At 11:52 PM -0600 7/16/12, Harold Bielstein wrote:
>"The 610 CNC is pretty ugly to my eyes. "
>Maybe, but it has some beefy arms compared to Mafac's. Should give
>nice positive brake feel.

The upper arms don't need to be beefy, as they are stressed in one
plane only. What matters are the lower arms (between pivot and brake
pad), which take the twisting as the pads are dragged along by the
rims. Those are plenty beefy on the Mafac, and in fact, appear more
resistant to torsion than the Weinmann/Dia Compe design.

I have not yet used a brake with a more positive feel than the Raid...

Given a choice, I'd always take a forged brake arm over a CNC-machined one.

[Ken Freeman]

CNC or not, can a pair of Paul Racer arms be positioned to work well with Hetres and the GB hammered fenders sold by Compass?

On Tue, Jul 17, 2012 at 9:11 AM, Jan Heine <hei...@earthlink.net> wrote:

At 11:52 PM -0600 7/16/12, Harold Bielstein wrote:

"The 610 CNC is pretty ugly to my eyes. "
Maybe, but it has some beefy arms compared to Mafac's. Should give nice positive brake feel.

The upper arms don't need to be beefy, as they are stressed in one plane only. What matters are the lower arms (between pivot and brake pad), which take the twisting as the pads are dragged along by the rims. Those are plenty beefy on the Mafac, and in fact, appear more resistant to torsion than the Weinmann/Dia Compe design.

I have not yet used a brake with a more positive feel than the Raid...

Given a choice, I'd always take a forged brake arm over a CNC-machined one.

Jan Heine
Editor
Bicycle Quarterly
2116 Western Ave.
Seattle WA 98121
http://www.bikequarterly.com

Follow our blog at http://janheine.wordpress.com/

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Ken Freeman
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[William Lindsay]

Update:  my $150 offer was declined.  I had also enquired if the auction included any straddle cable hangers or fork or seatpost housing stops, and the seller said you get what is in the picture, nothing more nothing less.  That annoyed me, seeing as the guy has ~30 sets for sale all using the identical photograph.  

Anyway, suffice it to say I'll not be spending $250 for Mafac Raids from that person.  I'll most likely just keep my eyes open for the right opportunity.  

[Ken Freeman]

CNC or not, can a pair of Paul Racer arms be positioned to work well with Hetres and the GB hammered fenders sold by Compass?

On Tue, Jul 17, 2012 at 9:11 AM, Jan Heine <hei...@earthlink.net> wrote:

At 11:52 PM -0600 7/16/12, Harold Bielstein wrote:

"The 610 CNC is pretty ugly to my eyes. "
Maybe, but it has some beefy arms compared to Mafac's. Should give nice positive brake feel.

The upper arms don't need to be beefy, as they are stressed in one plane only. What matters are the lower arms (between pivot and brake pad), which take the twisting as the pads are dragged along by the rims. Those are plenty beefy on the Mafac, and in fact, appear more resistant to torsion than the Weinmann/Dia Compe design.

I have not yet used a brake with a more positive feel than the Raid...

Given a choice, I'd always take a forged brake arm over a CNC-machined one.

Jan Heine
Editor
Bicycle Quarterly
2116 Western Ave.
Seattle WA 98121
http://www.bikequarterly.com

Follow our blog at http://janheine.wordpress.com/

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[Nick Bull]

Hi, Jan,

It would be helpful if you could either post or point me to a posting on how to adjust centerpull brakes.  I don't see anything for centerpulls either at Park Tools or Sheldon Brown.  Cantilevers are probably similar, but maybe there are important differences?

I have a Mafac RAID as my front brake, installed earlier this year (I do not have braze-on pivots).  But it squeals dreadfully and does not seem to have very good braking force.  The other day, a pedestrian stepped in front of me and it took way too long to come to a stop!  I bought some VO adjustable cantilever shoes with VO squeal free pads so now I think I have solved the squeal problem.  I'd like to have more braking force, though.  I've adjusted the straddle cable to be on the shorter side.  I can only release the straddle cable using the quick-release in the brake levers themselves.  Maybe that's the wrong direction and the straddle cable should be long?

It seems like the right pivot allows some movement in the brake arm.  Is it possible to tighten this using the bolt head there?

Nick

[Brad]

Mafac brake pad squeal can be fixed by using koolstop red pads.  Your pads probably had some sort of glaze or hardening on them.  I am surprised that Alex would call these bargain brakes.  I always thought the bargain brakes were the CLB Racers.  My read, but this is guessing is that relatively few Raids were made because trends were changing and the dedicated touring bike with big clearances was going out of style.     Mafacs had more pad on the rim than Weinmann/DiaCompe did.  I ditched a pair of Weinmann on a Gitane I had in 1974 when a pair of Mafac Racers were on sale.  Those brakes were in regular use from 1974 until 1988, and had return engagements after that.  My purchase of Superbe brakes was driven by a desire to be cool and shiny, and a really good sale price at Wheel Goods/ Cycle Goods in Minneapolis.   Most of the side pulls available before 1978 were pretty lame, except for Campy and Universal.  Weinmann did not add quick release to their side pulls until pretty late, and even then the brake was pretty execrable in my opinion.   The Gran Compe and Superbe Campy copies were much welcomed and bought up because they were perceived to be cooler.  Did they stop better?  Probably not.  They were easier to set up.

  The design on the Raid shows some attempts to improve the design over the Racer, particularly the ridge on the back which will lock the front from pivoting with the right curved washer against the fork.   http://www.flickr.com/photos/stronglight/3216411730/  The long reach makes it a brake for a particular purpose.  Once brazing canti bosses on frames became not a big deal, that purpose seemed less important.   There was a philosophy that some preached, particularly Fred DeLong, that braze ons weakened tubes and created places for rust to hide.  There was also huge demand for parts during the bike boom, so a lot of stuff got shipped out of factories very quickly and inevitably quality suffered. 

Well, I'll stop with a screeech !

[Jan Heine]

Hi Nick,

I think your first problem are the VO pads. I had those on a test bike, and they were dangerously lacking in friction. During a ride, I decided I wasn't going to risk my life any longer, and stopped at a bike shop, bought some Kool-Stop pads, and borrowed some tools to install them.

Beyond that, there isn't much needed to set them up. If they don't toe themselves in after a few rainy rides, you can toe them in yourself. There are different methods, I usually slide the socket of a small wrench over the post and use the leverage to bend the arm. Never had to do this on a  Mafac centerpull yet, though.

Play at the pivot cannot be adjusted. However, it rarely is a problem. That said, the new Raids on my new bike stop way, way better than the already quite good, but almost 40 year-old Mafac Racers on my old bike.

Jan Heine
Editor
Bicycle Quarterly
2116 Western Ave.
Seattle WA 98121
http://www.bikequarterly.com

Follow our blog at http://janheine.wordpress.com/

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[Nick Payne]

On 17/07/12 23:11, Jan Heine wrote:
> Given a choice, I'd always take a forged brake arm over a CNC-machined one

The forged arm won't be any stiffer, as the Young's modulus is an
intrinsic property dependent on the composition, and isn't changed by
the processing (forging vs machining). It might take a higher strain
before failing, due to grain alignment from the forging, but then I've
never seen a brake arm fail from excessive braking force...

Nick

[Matthew J]

> But it squeals dreadfully and does not seem to have very good braking force.  The other day, a pedestrian stepped in front of me and it took way too >long to come to a stop!  I bought some VO adjustable cantilever shoes with VO squeal free pads so now I think I have solved the squeal problem.  I'd > like to have more braking force, though.

For my Raids I put the Mafac post and pads on the shelf in favor of Yohozuna single piece post with the red Mather pads.  The brakes engage quickly and with a lot of force.  Admittedly this set up detracts from the classic look.

[Nick Bull]

Thanks, Brad,

I neglected to mention that I was already using the Koolstop red Mafac-shoe-compatible pads.  I ran them for probably a couple of hundred miles, so it seems like they should have "worn in" and stopped squealing, but they didn't.

Having installed the VO adjustable brake shoes, I had to adjust the straddle cable length since the VO shoes put the legs further apart than before.  As a result, braking power has improved somewhat, even with the VO squeal-free pads.  But after some of the comments here about those pads, I'll probably swap in some new KoolStop salmons into those shoes, and hopefully the braking will improve further.

Nick

[Nick Bull]

Thanks.  Do you mean like: http://store.interlocracing.com/yo77mtbsmpob.html

"Mather" is a typo for Matthauser?

[Nick Bull]

Thanks, Jan,

I wonder if you or any others could comment on metal fatigue in old aluminum.  I bought my RAID brakes on EBay from a French charity, that I guess takes them off old bikes.  One of the brake arm uppers must be very slightly bent, since instead of the arms being parallel, one is displaced forward a couple of mm.  I could probably bend it back but am reluctant to do so since aluminum doesn't like to be bent.

Anyway, presumably each time you apply the brakes, you are putting a fair amount of stress on the arms and pivot points and legs.  And presumably there is some point at which the continued stresses exceed the fatigue life of the aluminum and it's going to break.

I just wonder whether I should be concerned about this, or if the "some point" is likely to be so far from now that I don't need to worry.  I know that people are advised to buy new handlebars and stems eventually, so I wonder about brakes.

Thanks,

Nick

[Matthew J]

Typo or abbreviation.  Whatever makes me seem smarter ;)

 

The brakes squealed at first.  Playing around with toe in angle I elminated the squeal.

[Hoffsta]

Assuming a new custom frame would have the brakes integrated in the design, aside from classic aesthetics, how do the Paul Racers compare to Raids? Is the reach, power, and modulation similar or does one stand out as a better brake?

[rob perks]

I am biased towards the Pauls as I have chosen them as an integral component on the Rambler frame sets.  That said, I believe both brakes can be made to perform equally well.  The real difference will be aesthetics, readily accessible parts over the next 10 years or more should you ever need them and how you feel about brake shoes on a smooth post.

While the washer and draw bolt on the raid is not that bad to set up, I still have a bit of an aversion to that style of pad.  It is deeply rooted in the fiddlyness of the older shimano canti brakes, they worked well, but I hated setting them up. The Pauls are dead simple to set up, and have the benefit of individual spring tension adjustment in each arm.  The Pauls also use modern pads with threaded posts and spherical washers, easy to find and easy to set up well.

The internal space between pivots of the raids is about 58mm, the Paul racers are about 56mm.  I have not had one of the wider Honjo fenders to test fit yet, but the VO zeppelin fenders have a couple mm to spare on either side.  You can see a Hetre sans fender here:http://oceanaircycles.com/2012/07/10/rambler-no-3-preview/

Rob
-
oceanaircycles.com

[Jan Heine]

While I like Paul Price - he is a great guy - I find the Paul Racer brakes not quite optimal. First, almost all I have ridden squeal, even with modern pads toed in. It appears something about the pivots - less play than the most simple bushings, but just enough to vibrate at that frequency.

Second, the large pivots with the integrated springs work well for cantis, where they sit below the rim. On the centerpulls, the pivots encroach on the room you need for fenders. The pivots of old-style centerpulls are much slimmer.

Third, the Paul's huge pivots with the recessed bolts make it difficult to attach a rack. Paul makes a special bolt, but it's a pretty ungainly piece of equipment.

That said, the Pauls work well enough, and many really like them. However, I chose Mafac Raids for my bike...

Jan Heine
Editor
Bicycle Quarterly
2116 Western Ave.
Seattle WA 98121
http://www.bikequarterly.com

Follow our blog at http://janheine.wordpress.com/

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[Greg Achtem]

Also I believe if you use the Paul bosses, the only brakes you can use are Pauls. If you use Dia Compe, you aren't locked in to a single brake. Dia Comp, Weinmann, MAFAC all fit.

That's right, isn't it?

[Jan Heine]

At 5:58 PM -0600 7/18/12, Greg Achtem wrote:
>Also I believe if you use the Paul bosses, the only brakes you can
>use are Pauls. If you use Dia Compe, you aren't locked in to a
>single brake. Dia Comp, Weinmann, MAFAC all fit.
>
>That's right, isn't it?

Paul used his standard canti pivot arrangement for the Racers. The
reasons are simple: He had the design, his machines are set up for
it, and all the parts are interchangeable with his other brakes.

This means that the brazed-on pivots are cantilever pivots, but of
course, located higher like all centerpull pivots.

So you are right, if you put the pivots for the Paul brakes on your
bike, you are limited to Paul brakes. If you like them, that is not a
problem. Brakes generally don't wear out, so you don't need to worry
about needing a spare years from now, when the Paul Racer may not be
available any longer.

Jan Heine
Editor
Bicycle Quarterly
2116 Western Ave.
Seattle WA 98121
http://www.bikequarterly.com

Follow our blog at http://janheine.wordpress.com/

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[Hoffsta]

Great info, thanks for the clarifications you guys.

[Michael_S]

I have brazed Paul Racers on my 700C Coho Randonneuse.  They have never squealed, are super easy to adjust and are the best brakes I've ever used as far as modulation and power. I'm with Rob, on this as these are readily available, work very well and are built here in the USA.  A lot easier to get than from some finicky Ebay seller in France who thinks he has the Golden Egg.  In this case new is better.

~mike

[Phil Brown]

Here's an interesting alternative: Shimano Dura Ace centerpulls. The
original Dura Ace group had very nice centerpulls with lots of reach
and clearance. And they're cheap on ebay. there's a complete set right
now for a buy it now of $40. And they're nicely finished.
Phil Brown
Marine layer clearing out in Oakland, calif.

[William Lindsay]

Phil

Those are interesting.  Up to 62mm of clearance.  I might have to try a set, even if it's just to work on my profiling and polishing skills!  :)

Thanks for the heads up

Bill

[Steve Chan]

Are they actually good? I've seen them around, but thought that I
read they were kind of flexy.

Steve

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[Ken Freeman]

I wouldn't call these long-reach, at least not for CPs.  I recall measuring and finding they are not as long as Mafac Racers.  And the old set I have (same as the old Tourney part) is not that "nice."  It's not a bad-looking part, but not anything special.  Certainly nowhere near the quality of the early DuraAce sidepull or it's inspiration the 1st gen Campy Record sidepull.

[Ken Freeman]

What clearance is 62 mm on these DuraAces?

[Daniel]

What are the details on this frameset?

On Mon, Jul 16, 2012 at 2:05 PM, Matthew J <matth...@gmail.com> wrote:

There are not very many good shape Raids around.  Those who have them know this.

 

As soon as I track down a suitable box I plan to offer for sale a 650B frame, fork and racks with very good condition Raids already mounted.  Guess I'll have to take this into consideration. 

[William Lindsay]

Sorry I meant that I'm reading on the description here that it is 62mm of reach.  

I asked the seller and he said the spacing between pivots is about 2-1/2 inches (~63mm) and that the brake opening as pictured between the brakepads with the caliper all the way open is 1-3/8 inches.  That's only 35mm.  That all seems small.  I'd hate to have to deflate a tire to get a wheel off the bike.  Lower profile pads would change that some, of course, but it sounds sub-optimal for a 650BxFat

[Matthew J]

I've had bikes with both. 

 

The bike with the Paul's was set up for a low rider rack.  Pauls were an excellent fit on the bike.

 

The bike with the Raids has a traditional rando style rack.  As Jan points out Pauls are difficult to work the rack in.

 

Both stopped wonderfully.  After adjustments I was able to reduce if not fully eliminate squeal with both.

 

Obviously, Pauls are easier to get.

[Ryan Watson]

Here's my squeal-free Raid setup:

VO adjustable, toe-in-able holders with the Yokozuna Mathauser type pads. Better than the similar looking Kool stop ones, in my experience. The nice part is that you just set the toe-in once and then after that just slide out and the old pads and put in new ones. 

Cheers,

Ryan

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[Matthew J]

An admittedly poor mechanic, I found the VO more difficult to adjust than the Yokozuna I am using currently.  The VO did not squeal.

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