Soma Smoothie (not ES) conversion?

[Will Vautrain]

So I converted my 52cm ES last year, and though it's great, I realize the frame is way too small. Weighing my options now, and one idea is a Soma Smoothie, which is a slightly more aggressive version. Supposedly the frame and standard steel fork fit 28mm tires at 622mm BSD, but I'm wondering if they will fit 32-33mm tires at 584mm BSD, or maybe even a bit wider. I'm after a sporty ride and no fenders, since I have the 55cm GR for everything else.

Has anyone tried this? Any thoughts?

[wg...@yahoo.com]

Hi Will,

I had the same thought about 6 months ago and looked at converting my size 56 smoothie.  A Col de la Vie, which I measure out to 35 mm's goes in with less than 1 mm of clearance on the rear chainstays, so you might just be able to squeeze 33 mm's in there but it would be really tight.  I have a Ritchey Carbon Pro fork on mine, and it wouldn't take the Col de la Vie.  Like with the rear, maybe you could get a 33 mm on there but I doubt there would be enough clearance to actually ride it.  I suspect the standard steel fork that comes from Soma has more clearance than the Ritchey, which is a really narrow fork, and you could always go with a mid-reach fork.  

The other limiting factor is that altho the BB drop on the smoothie isn't huge (70 mm) with 32's or 33's on 650B wheels, pedal strike will be a real issue.  

For these reasons I didn't pursue the conversion.

FWIW - I ride 700 cm Pari Roubaix's that measure out to 28/29 mm's and I run them pretty low (75 psi back 65 psi front) without any problems.  And it is a great "fast" bike with this set up.

geoff s

[Will Vautrain]

Geoff, thanks for the good intel. Based on that, I think I'll look at other options. I was looking at an All-City Mr Pink but don't like the PressFit 30 BB interface. I did just pick up a slightly used Mr Pink fork on eBay that I could potentially mate to a Soma ES frame (after a paint job, as the current cappuccino color is no bueno) or similar. 

The ES fits 35mm Soma New XPress tires pretty well, and will go wider in the rear, but the stock steel fork is a limiting factor in front. Maybe a 38mm tire would fit technically, but it wouldn't leave much room for the wheel to go out of true. 

The BB drop (also 70mm on the ES) is not a problem for me at all with 165mm crank arms, but maybe it would be if I was more skilled at cornering. 

Sent from my iPhone

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[wg...@yahoo.com]

Will,

I use 175 mm cranks, so if you run with 165 mm cranks and aren't looking to power thru turns, you may be ok doing the smoothie conversion.  You would still be limited to 33/32 mm tires, tho, and some people maintain with tires that thin the handling won't be great.  I don't know, haven't ridden such a set up.

I'm with you on the PressFit BB30 BB, clearly a solution in search of a problem.  Why in heck would anybody put one of these on a frame??!!

geoff 

[Andy Bailey Goodell]

I believe the Smoothie is just a ES/Stanyan missing a few eyelets and with tighter clearances. I have the Stanyan and was considering 650b for it, but research indicated that it could tightly do 38mm tires with fenders, and needed the longest reach brakes, possibly even ground out another 2mm to fully reach. This was the inspiration: http://somafab.blogspot.com/2013/05/soma-stanyan-650b-from-velo-cult.html. Given those issues for an all road 650b, I doubt that tighter clearances would make using a Smoothie conversion worthwhile, although it you don't need fenders, there may be some room.

I bought the Stanyan for racing, and it was a great frame for that. It fits my 700x32 tires without fenders. I started using it for brevets last year, but it's not the best for front rando bag handling. Maybe a new fork would change that, but at this point I'd rather aim for a fully capable frame from the start.

Andy

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[Will Vautrain]

Actually, the Smoothie has all the eyelets the ES and Stanyan have. All three have different geometries, the Smoothie is more of a road compact geometry, the ES and Stanyan are more traditional, if perhaps slightly more relaxed.

I didn't know this, but it looks like the Stanyan has been discontinued. Probably don't really need it with the San Marcos in the stable.

I think what I'm really after is a Rivendell Roadeo in 650b, but I don't really want to spend $2,000 on the frame. I think the Roadeo has clearance for 38mm or maybe wider tires (really don't need more than 38mm for this bike), since it will easily do 35mm at 622 BSD.

[Nick Bull]

I don't get it.  If you have an existing bike that you want to convert then that makes sense to me.  But if you are buying something new, why get something designed for 700c that will always be a compromise with 650b, instead of just buying something designed for 650b?

[Will Vautrain]

If you know of any mass-produced steel sporty road frames designed around 650b and caliper brakes and available in 55-56cm, let me know. I can't think of any. Ultimately the differences between a Soma ES, for example, and a similar sporty road frame "designed for" 650b will be pretty minor, in my opinion. 

Soma now actually states on its website that certain 700c designed frames work with 650b wheels and tires with certain reach brakes. I think they have some language to this effect on the ES page. 

[Harald Kliems]

Just speaking to the issue of BB drop/pedal clearance: I just completed the conversion of my early Gunnar Roadie, which appears to have a very similar geometry -- 70mm BB drop, 73.5° HT angle, short chain stays. Clearances in the rear must be slightly bigger on the Roadie, as I was able to fit Col de la Vies measuring 35mm and could possibly make 38mm tires work. However, BB height is indeed an issue. With 700x25C tires, the BB sits at approximately 270mm, and with 650x35B tires it ends up closer to 260mm (I have to re-measure more precisely). With 175mm cranks that certainly is less than ideal. I'll have to do more riding to see if I can live with it.

 Harald.

PS Some pics http://ride-or-pie.blogspot.com/2015/03/converting-my-gunnar-roadie-to-low.html

[wg...@yahoo.com]

Will there is a San Marcos 54 on sale on the riv forum, if that would work: https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/rbw-owners-bunch/H2SQmzmMXzU.

g

[wg...@yahoo.com]

Harold, what is the fork you are using?  And please let us know how you like the new set up.

geoff

[Michael Mann]

Are caliper brakes a deal-breaker for you? Not exactly "mass-produced" but you can't go wrong with the Ocean Air Rambler, which in the size you specify is 650b.  The Paul centerpulls are the perfect brake for wider tires INHO, and the Rambler has a lot of well-thought touches. I love mine.

Mike

Michael Mann
http://baiku-velomann.blogspot.com/

[Will Vautrain]

I've had my eye on the San Marcos in general, but I'm wary of the 54cm size, it seems like some of these were made for 700c and extra long reach brakes, which means the reach might likely get longer than 76mm with 650b. I think more recent batches were made for mid reach brakes, which means they should be able to convert over. But basically it's a beautiful frameset at about the top of my preferred price range at this time.

[Will Vautrain]

Beautiful bike. I'd prefer to use sidepull calipers for this bike though, and the price is in Riv Rodeo/custom territory. 

[E Fong]

If you can forgo calipers, consider converting a CX frame.  I've seen these post extenders available, but can't vouch for their effectiveness. There is also the caveat that the cantilever bosses on the frame must be the "removable" type.

https://www.google.com/search?q=Elevn+V+brake+post+extender&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=S_sBVcHVJ8njoATsl4DIDQ&ved=0CCwQsAQ&biw=1440&bih=752

[Harald Kliems]

On Thursday, March 12, 2015 at 3:25:38 PM UTC-5, wg...@yahoo.com wrote:

Harold, what is the fork you are using?  And please let us know how you like the new set up.

It's a Rawland Stag fork. The linked blog post is all I can offer for now -- test ride was two days ago and I haven't had time for another one since then. I'll go on a longer ride this weekend and will report back. Right now my impression is that as long as the low bottom bracket doesn't become too problematic, I'll really like this set-up. And I'll have to see how having a front load will change things (I don't have a matching bag at the moment.)

 Harald. 

[Jim Bronson]

I have 80mm bottom bracket drop on my Rivendell custom and I'm running 650Bx38mm Compass LoupLoups.  I did have a few pedal strikes in the beginning but I've gotten used to it now and I can't remember the last time I had a pedal strike, I've just learned to live with not pedaling through corners as much as I used to.

Keep the metal side up and the rubber side down!

[Will Vautrain]

I think the BB drop doesn't even enter my mind because I'm not a very aggressive rider, and I use 165mm crank arms anyway. Actually I put 152mm cranks on my new GR, even though I'm sure it has less drop than my ES. I love the 152mm cranks, by the way. I think they're intended for recumbent bikes. 

[Nick Payne]

Ditto here. I converted a Litespeed with 76mm BB drop, and the largest
tyre size I could fit between the chainstays was a GB Cypres 650x32.
With 170mm cranks I grounded a pedal once or twice early on, but that
was several years ago. No problems since then

Q factor will also have a considerable influence on the likelihood of
pedal strike. If (for arguments sake) your pedal grounds with the bike
cranked over at 45 degrees, then changing from a set of narrow cranks
with a 140mm tread to a set of wide cranks with 160mm tread has the same
effect on pedal strike as lowering the BB by 10mm. That is, the narrower
the cranks, the lower the BB can be.

Nick

[Nick Bull]

I guess that depends on how you define "sporty" and "mass produced".  I see you already have a GR from one of your posts below.  Others: Velo Routier ($499).  Rivendell Sam Hillborne ($1300).  Boulder Bikes Allroad ($1435).  All three appear to be drilled so that you can mount caliper brakes. Of course, the VR and the Allroad are low-trail while the Riv is higher-trail, more suitable for back-loading.  Maybe none of these count as sporty to you?  To me, what makes a bike sporty is mostly just that the frame is responsive, rather than being more of a touring-weight frame that is not responsive.  With a responsive frame, decent wheels and transmission, and responsive tires like the Babyshoe ExtraLight's, I don't see any reason why acceleration and cornering on any of these would not qualify as "sporty".

FWIW, I have converted my Gunnar Sport to 650B but the only reason that I did that is that it has S&S couplers, which add approx. $1000 to any build once you factor in re-painting.  I have a GR that I ride for my regular randonneuring.  Before I got the GR, I had converted an '82 Trek 728 and an '84 Trek 610 to 650B.  The reason I finally bit the bullet and bought the GR is that tire and fender clearances on the converted Treks had very little clearance (at least with Hetres).

Nick

[Will Vautrain]

Interesting, I was under the impression the VR was made exclusively for centerpulls (and perhaps not even drilled horizontally at all in the rear, much like the GR), and I thought the Boulder AR was canti-only. The Sam Hillborne I'm pretty sure is spec'd for 700c in my size. Anyway, I was wanting to stay well under $1,000 for the frame if possible, but I will definitely check out the VR option.

Truth be told, the ES works very well for me, I just need a larger size and I thought I would explore my options. But I may end up getting a 56cm ES.

[Nicholas Bull]

You may well be correct: I'm just looking at the photos which show the bottom of the head tube as having a horizontal hole on all of them (and side-pulls installed on the Riv). 

I am pretty indifferent about what brakes I am using as long as they stop me well and can open far enough that I can get an inflated wheel past the brake pads.  So I have bikes with sidepulls, centerpulls, cantilevers, V-brakes, and disks.

Nick

[satanas]

Pedal size and one's tendency to pedal rond tight corners have a huge affect on what drop/BBH is acceptable too. Really, this is a matter of taste...

Later,
Stephen

[Will Vautrain]

Mr Pink fork from eBay arrived with a few paint chips but in good shape. I dropped in my front wheel with the Soma New XPress (I guess about 35mm wide) and wow, the fork took it like a champ. I think there's clearance for maybe 42mm tires without fenders, 38mm tires with fenders on the Mr Pink fork. This fork should work well if I build up a 56cm Soma ES. It matches the clearance of the rear triangle of the ES much better than the ES steel fork. $40 well spent, I'd say.

[Tim Gavin]

I had similar results when I converted my early Rivendell Road Standard to 650b.  It fits 38 mm tires with about 2 mm on either side.  The tightest spots are at the chainstays and fork legs, but there is good fender room above the tire now.   

My Riv started with 80 mm of BB drop, so mine is even lower than yours.  I use a 170 mm crank and don't pedal when I'm leaned over very far, otherwise I can scrape the edge of the pedal.  I live with it.  

The increase from 28 mm tires to 38 mm tires was worth it, in my opinion.

Tim Gavin

[Jim Bronson]

FWIW, my configuration is pretty similar to Tim's. Early Joe Stark
build Rivendell custom with clearance for 38mm tires in 650b but no
more. The clearance is pretty tight at the chainstays, but it works
and I haven't had any problems with tires or fender rubbing. The BB
drop is also 80mm and I used 170 cranks at first but have gone to
175s. I had some pedal strikes in the beginning but now that I have
gotten more used to it I can't remember the last time I had a strike,
and I use VP-001 pedals with 20mm Kneesaver pedal extenders, so I have
a pretty large and out there pedal setup.

[Chris L]

I know you mentioned caliper brakes but if you are willing to consider cantilevers then a Handsome Devil frameset might be worth looking into.  

The Devil has 73/73 seat tube/head tube angles

70mm of BB drop

Long forward facing dropouts for chainstay length from 43-45cm

I'm running 700c x 40 Marathon Duremes on mine with clearance to spare.  I'm considering a 650B conversion and calculated that Compass' upcoming 650B x 47 tire would give 1.2cm more vertical clearance in the fork and I'm pretty sure the 47mm would fit.  Anything smaller would be easy.  I have calculated that with a 650B x 42 tire, the trail measurement would be about 56mm.

Over the past two years I've discovered that I really prefer smaller wheels (than 700c) and I'm just trying to decide between a 26" Long Haul Trucker or a 650B conversion of my Devil.  

[Will Vautrain]

I thought most canti-equipped frames built for 622 were unable to be converted to 584 (without moving the brake bosses) due to brake reach. How were you thinking of dealing with that issue on the Devil?

[E Fong]

Mentioned in an earlier message using Elevn post extenders.  Don't know how well they work, but they are out there for this purpose.

[Rob Riggins]

I wish I hadn't seen those extenders. This means I could use them to build up a bike with 650Bs that was not possible before I gained this knowledge. 

It's like one of those parts you buy and end up building a bike around. I'm sure I'm not the only one who has done that.

Those are usually fun projects, but it's a little ridiculous when viewed that way.

Rob

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Rob Riggins

[Will Vautrain]

Those extenders will only work with frames that are equipped with removable canti bosses, which is probably limited to alloy or carbon cross frames that are also disc capable, which kind of makes it a moot point, I think. It certainly won't work on 99.99% of canti-equipped steel bikes, certainly not the Handsome Devil. 

[Chris L]

It would require replacing the cantilever studs but I'm assuming that if the OP is thinking of modifying 700c bikes, then what he wants doesn't currently exist in 650B and the $150 or so it would cost to replace the braze-ons wouldn't be prohibitive.  Also, Paul Components has a specific brake that would allow the resulting bike to be run either as a 650B or a 700c (I believe.  I know a 26" to 650B works).  If I do my conversion I'll have the braze-ons replaced and then get the whole think powdercoated because I don't care for the color, anyway.  I'm not aware of any other 650B frameset that is what I'm looking for (outside of maybe an RBW Bombadil).   

[Will Vautrain]

It would probably be $250-300 for moving the bosses, frame stripping and a simple powdercoat. Certainly a viable option if you already have a frame you like and that would work except for canti brake reach. 

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[Philip Kim]

Depending on if you're okay with a more stout bike, the LHT makes a great 650b conversion. Can fit 650bx2.1 knobbies easily, and since it already has a low bottom bracket, 650b conversion will be more in line with modern road bb drops.