Bar end Shifter Question

[Tom Norton]

My current favorite bike is a Velo Orange Polyvalent. I have Shimano bar end shifters on this bike. Another bike ,my Schwinn Super le Tour, has SunTour bar cons. Not sure if it is my imagination but it seems that the SunTour shifters are "nicer" to use.
So is it my imagination??
Thanks!

[Steve Palincsar]

On 12/07/2017 08:35 AM, Tom Norton wrote:
> My current favorite bike is a Velo Orange Polyvalent. I have Shimano bar end shifters on this bike. Another bike ,my Schwinn Super le Tour, has SunTour bar cons. Not sure if it is my imagination but it seems that the SunTour shifters are "nicer" to use.
> So is it my imagination??

Are you using the Shimano shifters in index or friction mode?

--
Steve Palincsar
Alexandria, Virginia
USA

[bikerbob]

If you haven't changed (some call it "upgrading") your Schwinn, I would assume it is still a 5 or possibly 6 speed freewheel, which do shift nicely with friction shifters (SunTour bar con, for example).  The SunTour levers are more substantial than Shimano, so I could see how they feel better when shifting.  I prefer either over brifters.

Bob Bingham
Graham NC

[James Swan]

Suntour shifters have a ratchet mechanism which means you don’t have to fight the friction mechanism in the shifter and the derailleur spring at the same time. It’s one or the other, depending on which way you move the lever. That results in a lighter feel. It’s pretty clever.

Jamie Swan

H: 631-754-1457
C: 516-238-6782
W: 516-403-5945
http://www.jamieswan.net

http://www.webb.edu

http://www.limws.org
http://www.liatca.org

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[Tom Norton]

My Schwinn has been converted to a 650b with an 8 speed cassette.
Thanks for the replies!
I am in the stage of tweaking the brake lever position on the Polyvalent before installing cloth bar tape and shellac. Now I think I might change the Shimano's to the SunTour.

[David Cummings]

There is a reason that Barcons still command a high price on the resale market. With the ratcheting mechanism, they give tactile feedback to the shifting that other friction shifters don’t. I believe this makes it easier to fine tune a shift.

OTOH, I like my indexed Shimano bar ends (as long as the shifting is properly adjusted). And I prefer either to Shimano’s brifters. Not that I don’t have brifters, but many bikes have been “downgraded” to bar ends.

David “eight is enough” in MT

[Steve Palincsar]

On 12/07/2017 09:40 AM, Tom Norton wrote:
> My Schwinn has been converted to a 650b with an 8 speed cassette.

I found 8 speed to be much more reliable index shifting than friction
shifting.  Also Shimano indexed bar end shifters work much better as
index shifters than they do as friction shifters.

> Thanks for the replies!
> I am in the stage of tweaking the brake lever position on the Polyvalent before installing cloth bar tape and shellac. Now I think I might change the Shimano's to the SunTour.

So I assume the answer to the question I asked in the beginning is
friction.  If so, yes you'd be happier with a micro ratchet than with
what Shimano provides.

[Tom Norton]

So I have a follow-up question.
Any chance the SunTour shifters would work vwith a 9 speed cassette?

[Steve Palincsar]

I don't know about the original barcons.  They were made in an era of 120mm wheels and 5 speed freewheels.  But I do know about the 2nd gen SunTour Sprint downtube lever mounted on a Shimano bar end shifter pod (the Riv-originated repros are called the "Silver shifter").  They work just fine, lots nicer in my opinion than the 1st gen barcon.

https://www.rivbike.com/collections/shifting/products/silver-shifters-bar-end-kit-17089

On 12/07/2017 04:57 PM, Tom Norton wrote:

So I have a follow-up question.
Any chance the SunTour shifters would work vwith a 9 speed cassette?

[Alex Wetmore]

The old Suntour barcons shift 8sp, 9sp, and 10sp cassettes (which are all close to the same width) just fine using Shimano derailleurs.

I have to disagree with Steve and actually prefer the originals.  The long shift levers on the Silver combo can stab my thighs when riding out of the saddle.  The stubbier levers  used for barend specific shifters from Shimano and Suntour don't do that, and if they do stab they are blunt and rubber covered and it doesn't hurt.

About 10 years ago I also figured out that I really prefer downtube shifters and have gotten rid of all of my barend shifters (the last pair was on a tandem that I no longer own).  The downtube shifters are not much farther from my brake hoods and are mechanically more elegant since there is a lot less housing and a little less cable.

---

From: 65...@googlegroups.com <65...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Steve Palincsar <pali...@his.com>
Sent: Thursday, December 7, 2017 2:13:40 PM
To: 65...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [650B] Re: Bar end Shifter Question

 

[James Swan]

Yeah, and you don’t have to contend with cable / bag interference, if you use a front mounted bag… They also make rinkoing (is that word) much easier.

Jamie Swan

H: 631-754-1457
C: 516-238-6782
W: 516-403-5945
http://www.jamieswan.net

http://www.webb.edu

http://www.limws.org
http://www.liatca.org

[Steve Palincsar]

On 12/07/2017 05:20 PM, Alex Wetmore wrote:

The old Suntour barcons shift 8sp, 9sp, and 10sp cassettes (which are all close to the same width) just fine using Shimano derailleurs.

I have to disagree with Steve and actually prefer the originals.  The long shift levers on the Silver combo can stab my thighs when riding out of the saddle.  The stubbier levers  used for barend specific shifters from Shimano and Suntour don't do that, and if they do stab they are blunt and rubber covered and it doesn't hurt.

I use 44 cm bars and don't hit my thighs on the shifters.  As for feel, going by memory because I last used the 1st gen barcons in 1991.  At that time I'd had them on all my bikes from 1975 on and loved them, but I think the micro ratchet feel of the 2nd gen is nicer.  I have them on my Kogswell P/R.

About 10 years ago I also figured out that I really prefer downtube shifters and have gotten rid of all of my barend shifters (the last pair was on a tandem that I no longer own).  The downtube shifters are not much farther from my brake hoods and are mechanically more elegant since there is a lot less housing and a little less cable.

Again, YMMV.  I never liked downtube shifters back when I had them in 1964 - 1972.  I hit a bump while reaching for the shifter with my then 2-year old daughter on a baby seat and almost crashed, and dislike turned to active hate.  But, my reach to the downtube shifter is a very long one.  I've seen for some folks it's a matter of simply dropping the hand and it lands right on the shifter, but for me it's move your hand, reach down almost to the water bottles, put your nose to the grindstone, now try to work in that position.   It's a good thing there are options to let people find what works for them.

[David Cummings]

I’m with Steve. Most of my bikes have at least a 60cm c-c seat tube so reaching WAY down for the DT shifters is not pleasant.

[Brad]

I have the same impression.

On Thursday, December 7, 2017 at 8:35:53 AM UTC-5, Tom Norton wrote:

[Evan Estern]

The Suntours a sweet "feel," superlative build quality and elegant design that IMO has never been matched.  You have to prefer friction shifting and like the concept of bar end shifters in general. I reluctantly gave up the Suntours, just because I found index shifting more effective for me.  That was many years ago.  These days I use downtube shifters exclusively.  Lots of reasons (some already pointed out):  They can poke the knees/thighs during an all out sprint.  The added cable/routing complication means more frequent adjustments and less crisp shifts.   The cables interfere with a front bag and I just don't like to see all that cable around my handlebars.  They are heavy.  If you drop your bike there's a good chance that the first contact point will be the shifter and it may break.  Having the controls on the handlebars (this applies to brifters, too) encouraged me to shift under load for some reason and beat up on my drivetrain--with downtube shifters I tend to unconsciously time my shifts to flow with my pedaling.  I use Velox rubber bar end plugs and I really appreciate the way you can lean your bike against a car or a wall and the grippy rubber plug means the bike generally stays put and won't scratch anything.  With bar ends I found leaning the bike like that encouraged it to topple over.  

[Steve Palincsar]

On 12/08/2017 09:34 AM, Evan Estern wrote:

The Suntours a sweet "feel," superlative build quality and elegant design that IMO has never been matched.  You have to prefer friction shifting and like the concept of bar end shifters in general. I reluctantly gave up the Suntours, just because I found index shifting more effective for me.  That was many years ago.  These days I use downtube shifters exclusively.  Lots of reasons (some already pointed out):  They can poke the knees/thighs during an all out sprint.  The added cable/routing complication means more frequent adjustments and less crisp shifts.   The cables interfere with a front bag and I just don't like to see all that cable around my handlebars. 

Not necessarily.  This routing works fine and shifts are very nice, and no frequent adjustment req'd.  There's no interference witth bag mounting.  The bag closure elastic hooks on the decaleur clamp.



Since I don't do any kind of sprints, all out or not, that's not an issue, and as I've said, with 44cm bars hitting my knees doesn't happen.

They are heavy. 

Compared to bar ends shifters, maybe, but not compared to integrated STI levers.

If you drop your bike there's a good chance that the first contact point will be the shifter and it may break.  Having the controls on the handlebars (this applies to brifters, too) encouraged me to shift under load for some reason and beat up on my drivetrain--with downtube shifters I tend to unconsciously time my shifts to flow with my pedaling. 

I learned to shift on a bike with Huret Allvit derailleurs.  You don't shift under load that way!   I rode friction shifting setups for decades, so timing shifts to flow with pedaling comes naturally to me.

[Evan Estern]

Steve, that's a beautiful bike and your setup looks great. 

[Toby Whitfield]

David Cummings wrote:

I’m with Steve. Most of my bikes have at least a 60cm c-c seat tube so reaching WAY down for the DT shifters is not pleasant.

 

I am curious about this, because I am also someone with a tall bike, but I have come to like downtube shifters. My saddle height is around 80-81 cm, so a frame from 58-64 cm depending on what I can get my hands on - I have a relatively short torso, so I need a shorter top tube. But, the relevant distance seems to me to be from your seated position to the downtube, which only changes with wheel size/axle to crown.

I assume that taller people with taller bikes also have longer arms, so it is somewhat of a wash. Of course, we are all unique individuals with varying measurements/ratios. Perhaps it is also the top tube length that matters? I would be curious to hear other people's impressions of this.

I don't find it an issue to make that long reach down, and have come to prefer them to bar ends, mostly for ease of cable routing and because I have some nice downtube shifters. However, in use it isn't a strong preference as I feel fine with both. I am younger than some on this list, so actually used mountain bike trigger shifters and brifters more than anything else, then indexed bar ends for touring, and only later in my life (well, except for some beater bike boom bikes I rode while in my university days) have I started using downtube shifters.

Toby Whitfield

Toronto, Canada

[David Parsons]

On Friday, December 8, 2017 at 6:34:16 AM UTC-8, Evan Estern wrote:

 The cables interfere with a front bag

Bowden cables can be flexed an awful lot before they fail to work;  I use brifters & large front bags (so the cables end up bending down pretty abruptly after leaving the brifters), so it's quite possible that what looks like an impossible amount of cable manipulation will work out fine for you.

[Alex Wetmore]

Shifter reach can also vary depending on the bike.  My downtube shifter bikes (all two of them) are ones that I built, and I put the shifter bosses pretty close to the headtube.  Compare this bike to Steve's:

http://photos.alexwetmore.org/Bicycles/Bicycles/Novara-Fusion/i-4K2GmqM/A
http://photos.alexwetmore.org/Bicycles/Framebuilding/Travel-Gifford/i-2b4CLr4/A

I've never understood why other builders put them so far down the tube.  Just placing them a couple of inches farther up the downtube also makes them a lot closer to reach.

alex

---

From: 65...@googlegroups.com <65...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Toby Whitfield <toby.wh...@gmail.com>
Sent: Friday, December 8, 2017 8:09 AM
To: 650b

Subject: Re: [650B] Re: Bar end Shifter Question

--

[Steve Palincsar]

Yes, your downtube shifter bosses are closer to the head tube, and also your bars are lower.  Add those two together and it should make a noticeable difference.

[Steve Palincsar]

A "shift your hand and it falls naturally onto the lever" feels pleasant.  A "reach WAY down for the lever" is not.  Long torso doesn't necessarily mean long arms, either.

On 12/08/2017 11:09 AM, Toby Whitfield wrote:

David Cummings wrote:

I’m with Steve. Most of my bikes have at least a 60cm c-c seat tube so reaching WAY down for the DT shifters is not pleasant.

 

I am curious about this, because I am also someone with a tall bike, but I have come to like downtube shifters. My saddle height is around 80-81 cm, so a frame from 58-64 cm depending on what I can get my hands on - I have a relatively short torso, so I need a shorter top tube. But, the relevant distance seems to me to be from your seated position to the downtube, which only changes with wheel size/axle to crown.

No, the relevant distance is the arc your arm swings through from brake hoods around a circle if you let the arm "just drop free" leaving the torso exactly in place.  The bar end clearly is in reach that way, and for some people a spot along the downtube where the DT lever is located is too.  But not always.  And not for me.

I assume that taller people with taller bikes also have longer arms, so it is somewhat of a wash. Of course, we are all unique individuals with varying measurements/ratios. Perhaps it is also the top tube length that matters? I would be curious to hear other people's impressions of this.

I don't find it an issue to make that long reach down, and have come to prefer them to bar ends, mostly for ease of cable routing and because I have some nice downtube shifters. However, in use it isn't a strong preference as I feel fine with both. I am younger than some on this list, so actually used mountain bike trigger shifters and brifters more than anything else, then indexed bar ends for touring, and only later in my life (well, except for some beater bike boom bikes I rode while in my university days) have I started using downtube shifters.

DT levers: I love the look, and I appreciate the cable routing issues (and the infinite life of DT shifter cables compared to all the other alternatives).  But they don't love me.

[Alex Wetmore]

My bars aren't that much lower than yours.  It looks like your bars are slightly above saddle height, and mine are slightly below.  Both bikes have sloping top tubes which makes the head tube longer and the quill or spacer stack shorter.  It doesn't change the distance between the handlebars and HT/DT junction, which is the important measurement here.

Many commercial bikes don't have downtube shifter brazeons anymore, so the ability to use downtube shifters is turning into a custom bike thing anyway.  Then the builder and customer can work to get the location correct for the rider.

I initially switched to downtube shifters when installing a porteur rack on my Kogswell P/R prototype, due to the barend shifter routing difficulties mentioned earlier.  Kogswell was one builder who did place the shifters fairly close to the head tube:

http://photos.alexwetmore.org/Bicycles/Racks/Porteur-Rack/i-5h4td9S/A

Porteur Rack - photos.alexwetmore.org photos.alexwetmore.org A Porteur conversion rack for the Nitto M12. This is being built by Alistair Spence for my Kogswell P/R. I'm helping with a little of the brazing and we worked together on the design.

You can see that the spacer stack on that frame looks large (due to the level top tube), but handlebar to shifter distance is similar to my other bikes.

alex

---

From: 65...@googlegroups.com <65...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Steve Palincsar <pali...@his.com>
Sent: Friday, December 8, 2017 9:27:19 AM
To: 65...@googlegroups.com

Subject: Re: [650B] Re: Bar end Shifter Question

 

Yes, your downtube shifter bosses are closer to the head tube, and also your bars are lower.  Add those two together and it should make a noticeable difference.

[Steve Palincsar]

On 12/08/2017 12:37 PM, Alex Wetmore wrote:

My bars aren't that much lower than yours.  It looks like your bars are slightly above saddle height, and mine are slightly below.  Both bikes have sloping top tubes which makes the head tube longer and the quill or spacer stack shorter.  It doesn't change the distance between the handlebars and HT/DT junction, which is the important measurement here.

Many commercial bikes don't have downtube shifter brazeons anymore, so the ability to use downtube shifters is turning into a custom bike thing anyway.  Then the builder and customer can work to get the location correct for the rider.

I initially switched to downtube shifters when installing a porteur rack on my Kogswell P/R prototype, due to the barend shifter routing difficulties mentioned earlier.  Kogswell was one builder who did place the shifters fairly close to the head tube:

http://photos.alexwetmore.org/Bicycles/Racks/Porteur-Rack/i-5h4td9S/A

And inspired by those same issues, I too have downtube shifters on my PR Porteur as well.




But I still like bar end shifters better.

[Mario Russo]

Does anyone have experience using a clamp adapter like the Problem Solvers DT shifter mount for frame without braze-on DT mount?

Seems like shifting quality in a DT configuration would only be as good as the stability of the mount.

https://problemsolversbike.com/products/shifters-derailleurs/downtube_shifter_mount_-_31244

 

[William Lindsay]

Mario Russo asked for testimonials on the Problem Solver clamp-on shifter mount.  

I've used it twice, but never on the downtube.  I've used it on a 28.6mm threadless steertube on two bikes.  I can confirm that the clamp itself is extremely sturdy and stable.  You will not lose anything in the way of shifting performance from a flexing or slipping clamp.  As long as you have a 28.6mm or a 31.8mm downtube, you are good to go with that Problem Solvers product.  I think it's kind of an unattractive product, but it's a functional and solidly built product.  

Bill Lindsay

El Cerrito, CA

[Toby Whitfield]

Yes - I have used exactly that Problem Solvers clamp, but I had to take it off of my bicycle because I couldn't get comfortable with the look on the bicycle I was using it on (of course, with aesthetic things YMMV and some people might find it attractive, and I offer no judgment for those that think this adapter clamp is ok looking). It worked just fine. It did hold the shifters further from the frame than I think is desirable, but that didn't seem to degrade from the function. I did source another one, that you can see in the attached photo, and I am much happier with it. It works fine too, and looks much better. However, I also should note that my frame has a little plate brazed on that the band sits against, so that it doesn't shift down the downtube. However, I doubt that a lack of such a plate would be a problem, as I haven't noticed any rotation or other instability. Oh, should also note that I have been very happy with these friction shifters, which are Campagnolo's take on the retrofriction shifter, that they seemed to only make briefly before jumping into indexed shifters, or maybe even simultaneously with their first index shifters.

I also should note that further to Steve's point above, he is surely correct that it is the arc of the swing from the bar to the shifter that is the relevant measurement. Interesting in looking at this photo that my shifters are not that close to the headtube, but I haven't found a problem with them. With my new (to me, of course) Jack Taylor tandem I wonder if I would be better off with handlebar shifters, as like Steve's Jack Taylor above, the shifters are pretty far down the downtube, and I will want extra control with the tandem. I haven't tested it with a stoker yet, as I just got it and am setting it up during the winter with some updates, that I intended to have include shifters, so this is something that is good for me to think about now. Also good for me to think about as I am due to get a custom next year, and I will want to make sure I communicate about shifter boss placement with the builder.

[Brad]

I think this is one of those things that is a matter of personal fit.   I went over to bar end shifters sometime in the early 70's and I never went back.  They just fit me and my riding style.  I prefer the Suntour first generation to other types.  I think they just got it right and everybody sense has tried to be different, but not in a good way.   Thigh jabbing, for example, isn't cool.   Improvements in cable housing has erased issues that once might have been real with cable run.  The common use of brifters has helped get the cable housing to the right place for bar ends. 

[Mark in Beacon]

I use down tube and bar end shifters about equally, with maybe a slight preference for bar ends, except in cable setup.  (Steve, did you use a fancy cable housing when routing under the handlebar tape on the JT?)   But definitely I prefer the bar ends on my 26" road tandem, where I like to keep both hands on the wheel to counteract the heavier steering forces in case of a bump. Previously I had a 650B Follis with dt shifters and I found that to be a little unnerving. But I never did get comfortable with where my body was in relation to that bike's steering axis. Plus I swapped in upright bars on the 26" tandem, which I much prefer for riding with my 8-year-old. 

In terms of Shimano or Silver vs. the old Sun Tour ratchet shifters, if you want friction, Sun Tour is good and I also liked the Silvers, but even though I don't recall ever getting stabbed by them, they are a bit long for the task. I have the Sun Tour on an eight speed at the moment, and have run the Silvers with 10 just fine. I have Shimano Ultegra 7 on the tandem, about to do a build with a nice pair of Ultegra 8.

David C. wrote that the Sun Tour still command a high price on the resale market. Depending on your definition of high price, that is not necessarily true any longer. While prices appear to be all over the map on eBay, there does seem to be a glut, and most sold prices are running $30-45 for a pair in decent vintage condition. Not bad.

On Friday, December 8, 2017 at 12:23:27 PM UTC-8, Toby Whitfield wrote:

With my new (to me, of course) Jack Taylor tandem I wonder if I would be better off with handlebar shifters, as like Steve's Jack Taylor above, the shifters are pretty far down the downtube, and I will want extra control with the tandem. I haven't tested it with a stoker yet, as I just got it and am setting it up during the winter with some updates, that I intended to have include shifters, so this is something that is good for me to think about now. 

[Steve Palincsar]

On 12/09/2017 07:58 AM, Mark in Beacon wrote:
> I use down tube and bar end shifters about equally, with maybe a
> slight preference for bar ends, except in cable setup.  (Steve, did
> you use a fancy cable housing when routing under the handlebar tape on
> the JT?)

Yes.  That's the Jagwire Road Complete kit.  I gott it about 30% because
of the bendy routing, but 70% because the color I liked was only
available with that housing.  Shallow, maybe, but so what.

[satanas]

I have relatively long arms and torso but not super long legs, so don't ride a huge frame, or have the bars super high. Nonetheless, I've always disliked downtube shifters as I'm not keen on removing my hands from the bars to shift (especially on bumpy surfaces, or in heavy traffic), and I shift more frequently than 90+% of people. I've also managed to bounce my knuckles off the front spokes more than once with downtube shifters and don't enjoy doing so.

As a result, I used the Suntour barcons for many years, until indexing (and STI) became available. I still have bikes with barcons, but generally prefer STI on drop bars since it enables shifting in situations where barcons do not.

The old Suntour shifters are IME both nicer to use and more reliable than the Shimano or Campagnolo alternatives, if friction is desired. Their indexed *shifters* are fine too, provided you can sort out suitable cassette (or freewheel) spacing, not always as simple to do as it should be.

Later,
Stephen

[David Cummings]

An early experience with bar-ends was my RB-1.  When I got it, I soon set it up as a half-step which can entail a lot of shifting, especially from the drops.  Bar-ends work perfectly for this situation.

Cheers,

David

[John Wilson]

My experience (50+ years worth) is all over the place and carries over to basic use of the bike: bar-ends for my loaded touring bikes and tandem (mixed index and friction), down-tube on my classics (Paramount, Austro Daimler, Viscount Aerospace...), brifters on my Allez and Cannondale gravel. Biggest problem: reaching for the bar-end on a non bar-end bike, so I guess that says a lot about my true preference. Neat thing about the Shimano bar-end pods is that you can use practically any down-tube shifter. If the added length offends, trim the lever and use the classic bar-end rubber covers.

Best,

John Wilson

GBG, PA  USA