Rawland Stag updated with new Lyon fork and new drivetrain

somervillebikes

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May 4, 2015, 12:50:05 PM5/4/15

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I finally got around to my first real ride of the season, about month behind schedule. I was able to get an impression of the new Lyon fork on mixed terrain. Overall, I would say the bike feels the way it did before-- since the geometry has not changed. But slight to moderate bumps are better damped by the more compliant fork. Large bumps-- tree roots, pot holes, etc, still feel about the same, but those are less common. For 95% of the road imperfections you feel when you ride, the new fork smooths them out. The bike still shimmies, no change there (I kept the same Cane Creek headset, but I might swap it out for a Miche roller bearing unit).

I had been gifted a SRAM Rival road group last fall, so I decided the existing Stag build would be ported over to my new L'Avecaise, and the Stag would receive the SRAM group. This is my first foray into SRAM territory, and so far I like it. The double-tap shifting took about 10 seconds to become familiar with, and after one ride it feels completely intuitive, and the weight of the action feels just right. I like it better than Shimano's integrated shifting. I haven't tried Campy Ergo, but that's going on my L'Avecaise build. I did have to ditch the Rival road crankset for a SRAM mtn double with gearing more appropriate to what I need, and that ended up being a hassle because I learned you can't use a SRAM road double FD with a SRAM mtn double crankset. Ugh, what a convoluted market of proprietary compatibilities. It's insane. Eventually I settled on an XX double 42/28 with an X9 double FD. I'm very pleased with the shifting. The Rival "Wifli" RD with medium cage handles a 32T cog just fine, no shifting issues there, either. I do note that the SRAM drivetrain is much quieter than the Shimano DA7800 it replaces.

Since the Stag's earlier dynamo wheelset built around polished PL23s were getting ported over to the L'Avecaise, I took advantage of Pacenti's sale to pick up a set of SL23s in black, to go with the grey/black SRAM group. I laced them to a set of older DA7700 9-speed era hubs, which spin beautifully. No dynamo setup, I figure I can always grab the L'Avecaise's dynamo wheel if I need it. I also picked up another set of Compass Babyshoe Passes, Extralight, in black. I'm pretty happy with how it all came together. I had never build V-section rims, but was joyed with how quickly and evenly they tensioned.

New cockpit with VO decaleur-supported Berthoud GB28. I'm really liking the feel and action of the SRAM shifters.

New Lyon fork with mid-fork low rider braze ons, specified behind the blade. The paint matching is not perfect, but damn close. Also new Portland Design Works fender release tabs, for enhanced safety on woody trails.

Borrowed my friend JPT's mudflap idea, translucent plastic with a strip of reflective tape.

Cateye battery taillight with light and motion sensing, and solar charging! Too bad it's a weak LED, and only does flash mode. Still a neat little light.

--Anton

C.J. Filip

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May 4, 2015, 8:49:29 PM5/4/15

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Very nice. Will be building up a Stag essentially the same way you have, shortly.

Evan Estern

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Dec 21, 2015, 4:31:05 PM12/21/15

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Hey Anton, have you had a chance to compare your Lyon/Stag with the L'Avecaise yet? I'd be very interested to hear how the bikes are similar/different. I'm still fine tuning the fit and components of my Lyon forked Stag--it just keeps getting better. My biggest concern is that the top tube (on my size Large) is 1-2 cm too long for me. I've switched to an 80mm stem and this has vastly increased the comfort of the ride, but I can't help but wonder if a shorter top tube and longer stem would be even better... Still my L/S is the best riding and fitting machine I've ever owned... so maybe I'm just splitting hairs.

Bill M.

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Dec 21, 2015, 9:30:38 PM12/21/15

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A shorter stem should make front bag access easier. I wouldn't sweat it.

Bill

Stockton, CA

somervillebikes

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Dec 21, 2015, 10:23:47 PM12/21/15

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Hi Evan. The Lyon fork definitely fixed the problem of the overly rigid Stag fork, so the ride is improved. However, there were two problems I had to deal with: one that the Stag had since new, and a new problem that only emerged with the new fork. The old problem was shimmy; the new fork didn't address this (nor did I expect it to), but swapping out the Cane Creek cartridge bearing headset for a Miche needle bearing headset resolved about 95% of the shimmy. There is a slight tendency for the bike to get into shimmy mode, but it disappears after the first or second mild oscillation. Before, it was a shimmy monster. So I was pleased with that outcome. The new problem, specific to the new fork, was severe fork judder upon braking, using the same brakes and pads as on the original fork. I swapped out the Koolstop pads for the original Tektro pads (I know people generally hate these pads) and they did the trick-- no more judder! And I find their stopping power acceptable. So both problems were solved, and the LyonStag is now an exceptionally nice riding, handling, and climbing bike.

Comparing it to the L'Avecaise, they're very similar, and the fit of the L'Avecaise has been replicated from the Stag using a shorter top tube and longer stem. The L'Aveciase rises above in a few areas. Both bikes are equally smooth and supple riding. But the L'Avecaise is supremely stable at all speeds, with not a hint of shimmy or twitchiness. The shorter top tube with longer stem may have helped here. And it goes where my hips point it, with or without a front load, and more intuitively than the Stag (the Stag will go where I point it without a front load, but not with one). The L'Avecaise's trail is around 32mm, while the Stag's is 37mm. Not sure if this is a significant enough difference to feel, or if this is factoring into any of my qualitative comparisons of the two bikes, but there you have it.

Michael Arciero

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Dec 22, 2015, 6:16:14 AM12/22/15

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My stag is similar fit as Evan. I have large and am using 90mm stem with Noodle bars, so is equivalent to 80mm stem. But I went with less rake on the Lyon fork, partly because I have a non-standard front bag (ortlieb) and carry less weight there, and partly because with shorter stem the front load will create less wheel flop, so the handling would be similar to that with less trail and the bag furtther out front with longer stem.

Anton, thanks for update. I continue to be impressed with the Stag's performance. While the bike filled my desire for fender-ed bike with big tires, lights, front loadable, for distance riding, I really did not want to love this bike. It was an experiment. I was dubious of the tubing spec. (acoustically it does not sound like thin-wall) I also have other "nicer" steel bikes. But after a year and a half on this and my other bikes, I am convinced that the sensations I feel while climbing or cruising at speed are not imagined. It accellerates more slowly initially than my lighter bikes, but does so smoothly and continues accellerating with ease, surprisingly so for such a heavy bike. Sometimes the other bikes have that initial jump but seem more difficult to sustain. Also on climbs it never has that bogging down feel. It just keeps going. I am able to maintain cruising speed on flats with ease. I guess that's what we mean by "planing".

The handling is fine also. It has a bit of a noodley feeling with big, quick adjustments of the steering, but under normal riding is not an issue. Bike is just as stable as my other bikes at high speed and may be a faster descender, not sure. My bike does slowly develop shimmy hands-off at high speed. I decided I am okay with that. I had issues with my Miche headset binding. Pretty sure it was defect. Miche on girlfriend's bike worked fine, binding predictably. So I went with Cane Creek 110. Also, I sometimes use small saddle bag on the back which actually seems to mitigate the tendency toward shimmy.

With Paul Touring cantis braking has been great-better than all but the short-reach caliper brakes. As good or better than the mid reach caliper on one of my bikes. Recently, I accidentally got the "Supra" version of the Kool Stop salmon pads rather than the "Mountain" version, also salmon, and found that they require much less toe-in to avoid judder and squeal. They also seem to have more meat on them.

wg...@yahoo.com

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Dec 22, 2015, 6:40:14 AM12/22/15

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Just a quick note on the fork judder - I had a similar problem with the fork on my new L'Avecaise, fork mounted cable stop solved it and that is with Paul Touring Canti's and the Kool Stop Supra pads. The Toei fork blades provide great road chatter absorption but that flex makes them prone to judder.

Side note, the L'Avecaise is a wonderful frame, Jeff is a real treasure.

geoff s

arlington ma

mitch....@gmail.com

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Dec 22, 2015, 1:00:10 PM12/22/15

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On Monday, December 21, 2015 at 8:23:47 PM UTC-7, somervillebikes wrote:

Hi Evan. The Lyon fork definitely fixed the problem of the overly rigid Stag fork, so the ride is improved.

Also must be one of the prettiest forks ever made. That rake curve ought to be put on a poster in every builder's shop. Jeff should either make his fork bender available for all to copy or keep it entirely proprietary to himself.

Comparing it to the L'Avecaise, they're very similar, and the fit of the L'Avecaise has been replicated from the Stag using a shorter top tube and longer stem. The L'Aveciase rises above in a few areas. Both bikes are equally smooth and supple riding. But the L'Avecaise is supremely stable at all speeds, with not a hint of shimmy or twitchiness. The shorter top tube with longer stem may have helped here. And it goes where my hips point it, with or without a front load, and more intuitively than the Stag (the Stag will go where I point it without a front load, but not with one). The L'Avecaise's trail is around 32mm, while the Stag's is 37mm. Not sure if this is a significant enough difference to feel, or if this is factoring into any of my qualitative comparisons of the two bikes, but there you have it.

I think the 32 vs 37mm trail difference would be significant enough to feel, but for my own bikes it can be hard to say when there are other significant variables, such as the TT difference in your two examples.

Alex commented in the past about this approximate trail range.

"I've personally built a lot of bikes with trail numbers in the 38-40mm range and really like that. I found that this provides the best combination of riding well unloaded, with very heavy front loads, and with anything in between. It feels strange to have one universally good trail number, but it has worked for me across rando, touring, commuter/porteur, and cargo (cycle-truck) bikes. I think my most rando-esqe bike has more like 35mm trail, and the Travel Gifford that was used to test the Rat Trap Pass tires might also benefit from a little lower trail (since the high volume tires have more pneumatic trail).

30mm trail does work really well for the specific use of carrying a light load on the front. I find that makes it the front end feel too light and twitchy when there is no front load (where 40mm feels fine), and is also a little harder to control with very heavy front loads."

That surprised me when I read it. I don't know at what weight that difference would show up.

I'm riding 31mm trail bike lately, a new Boulder Allroad where I believe Mike chose that trail dimension based on riding 50s R.Herse bikes and other classic low trail rando bikes and choosing what they preferred. When I first saw the 31mm dimension in the custom mock-up I was surprised and a little worried because I have 40-45mm low trail bikes I've really loved for being able to do most things so well, loaded, unloaded, but they were all with narrow tires (<32mm). I expected the 31mm trail to be something I had to get used to and expected finicky handling, but I've found it to feel totally ordinary and neutral and require no adjustment at all. (I ride a 58x58 with a 10cm stem and long-reach bar so I have an easy time loading the front wheel and I think that makes a difference, and balancing rider weight toward the front may be a reason the L'Avecaise feels so right, as you suggested.)

--Mitch

Evan Estern

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Dec 22, 2015, 10:25:53 PM12/22/15

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I have not experienced any fork judder, but I have noticed a bit of twitchyness and a slight tendency towards shimmy on the Stag, not all the time, but under some conditions. Keeping my rear wheel nice and true seemes to help, but it comes and goes, mainly on descents and I think depending on the surface and how much load I have up front. It's totally acceptable though, and I guess I just assumed it was part of the trade off for all the benefits of thin tubing, flexible fork, etc. I've put about 10k miles on it so far, changing out components and altering the fit as I discovered what really works for me. Originally I had planned to use the Stag as a template for a future custom bike. Then it turned out so good, especially with the Lyon fork, that I kind of put that concept away, but I'm revisiting it now, which is why I'm so curious about how it compares to the L'Avecaise.

somervillebikes

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Dec 22, 2015, 10:46:47 PM12/22/15

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Evan, which size Stag do you have? Mine is an XL with a 60cm top tube. Jeff Lyon's opinion was that the 60cm top tube in 8/5/8 tubing in standard diameter was probably the cause of the shimmy; given my weight (165lb) he felt pretty strongly about restricting the L'Avecaise's 7/4/7 top tube to 57cm and correcting for reach with a stem 30mm longer than the one on the Stag. Then again, the L'Avecaise has always had a needle bearing headset; I can't be certain that it wouldn't shimmy if it had the same Cane Creek headset with which the Stag shimmied badly.

Anton

Evan Estern

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Dec 23, 2015, 10:50:35 AM12/23/15

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My Stag is a Large, (7/4/7 by 58cm TT). I'm around 170 lbs 5'10.5". I have long legs and a relatively short torso. If I was going to a custom frame I'd probably probably go with a 59cm seat tube and a 57 or even 56cm top tube. I might stick with the 58 seat tube, if it effected the stability. Got about 4" of seat post showing with the L Stag. I've got the bike so dialed in right now, it's just a pleasure to ride it so I should probably just stick with the Stag and enjoy it for a while, but I can't help thinking about taking things up to the next level, even if it's not all that different.

Brent Avery

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Dec 27, 2015, 9:10:04 PM12/27/15

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Since there is some discussion here about top tube length vs stem length and the effect on handing I was wondering about someone like myself who because of neck issues with age need to have their handlebars fairly high. Because of this I went with a Large sized frame, the 58 cm top tube length had me using a 60 cm stem. I wanted to keep the seat post at a minimum height so the handlebars were not too high. Handlebars are Nitto Noodles although I have been thinking of putting some V.O. Gran Cru Randonneurs in their place as it would allow more height, allowing me to lower the stem at least an inch which would look more balanced at least. I do have some other older bikes, one a 56 x 56 cm Fuji that is now 65b low trail - I use a 60mm stem on it with the V.O. Rando bars and sometimes find I need to position myself back over the Brooks B17 a bit more, although the ramps on the V/O/ are long allowing me to stretch out, as long as I have some decent height I am usually fine though I think I should get a slightly longer stem. Head and seat tube are both 73 degrees.

I do find that with even 10 pounds or so in the front bag the Stag rides and handles well, no real shimmy issues at all ( Miche head set ). I have been thinking about the Jeff Lyon fork and whether it would be worthwhile, since I am around 140 pounds it would probably help on rougher roads. I did inquire once at Boulder about a custom Allroad but it seemed the idea of having one's handlebars more than 1" or so above the saddle was not something common - in my case more like 3" minimum. I have no issues riding my bikes like this, in fact one older Garlatti - a 56 cm with 55 cm top tube and 70mm Nitto Technomic stem is comfortable, just need some handlebars with flatter ramps.Anyway, they thought the way I had my bikes setup with higher handlebars was unusual and it seemed like they were hesitant to build a frame. This was before I ordered the Stag and at this point cannot afford a Custom frame, but if the Jeff Lyon fork is enough of an improvement I might look into it.

I guess what this boils down to is finding out what would really work best, it would seem a larger 58cm frame with a 56 cm top tube would work well, something with light tubing, which I know I prefer, as well as no pedal interference with the front wheel. I am using 175mm crank arms on both.

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Brent Avery
Burnaby, B.C., Canada