Wheels: Quills vs A23. Your Experiences?

[Nikko in Oakland]

Hey y'all, 

Looking too get a new wheel set. It's gonna be on a bike that's 70:30 / road:gravel, running either Babyshoe Passes or Switchback Hills. 

I was looking at Quills and A23s. Quills would probably be good all round, as far as I've read, but I want to assess if the $100/set savings is worth it to get A23s over Quills. I see that some folks use A23s with SBHs, even though it's not specced for it. Would anybody be able to speak on using A23s with a loaded front + some light gravel?

Thanks in advance y'all. 

[Jeffrey Kane]

I can say that my experience with A23's was that they were super-tight to mount with tubes no matter the tire, across the board, including both that you mentioned. So much so that I ended up only ever owning one set and did not feel remotely compelled to purchase another. You didn't mention whether you were going to run tubes or tubeless but I run tubes myself and have switched nearly all my wheel sets to Pacenti Brevets. Your riding surface split is identical to mine, btw. I don't have experience with Quills so can't comment there.

[brian.le...@gmail.com]

I have a set of A23s on my Raleigh High Life. I like them, but like many velocity rims, they seem "soft." On my A23s, the rim wall came in contact with an unknown force somewhat stronger than it, and pressed in a few minor dents. Structurally still OK, just a bit annoying. I've also dented the bead wall on 3 Velocity Blunts in the past. Miraculously, they've continued to hold a tubeless seal.

Velocities are alright. The Brevets mentioned above are top notch.

[David Dye]

As we all have our own biases, I'll start by saying I will never build another Pacenti rim; I had to warranty over a third of the wheels I built with with their rims. The only Velocity build I've ever warrantied was from the very first production run of Quills, and that was simply because because they didn't play nice with Conti tires. They were perfectly fine with everything else, but Velocity still replaced them with the updated extrusion. 

As for A23 vs Quill, I actually prefer the A23. The brake track is wider, so brake adjustment is much easier. The Quill is a bit stiffer laterally, so if that matters to you, choose Quill. Both must be taped with tubeless tape. If you use traditional rim strips, they take up too much room and tire mounting is a bear. Taped correctly, I've never had an issue, and they are super easy to set up tubeless. Both will fit whatever tire you want to run just fine.

[Nick in Oakland]

Thanks for the input y'all. I don't have a 100% gut feel on which of the two to get yet. I feel like I could go either way (A23 for the cost savings, Quills for the for sure compatibility and stiffness). 

[Chris Cullum]

On Thu., Nov. 19, 2020, 06:57 David Dye, <dye....@gmail.com> wrote:

As we all have our own biases, I'll start by saying I will never build another Pacenti rim; I had to warranty over a third of the wheels I built with with their rims. The only Velocity build I've ever warrantied was from the very first production run of Quills, and that was simply because because they didn't play nice with Conti tires. They were perfectly fine with everything else, but Velocity still replaced them with the updated extrusion. 

As for A23 vs Quill, I actually prefer the A23. The brake track is wider, so brake adjustment is much easier.

Wait, the brake track even is narrower on the Quill?! IMO it's already too narrow in the A23.

The Quill is a bit stiffer laterally, so if that matters to you, choose Quill. Both must be taped with tubeless tape. If you use traditional rim strips, they take up too much room and tire mounting is a bear. Taped correctly, I've never had an issue, and they are super easy to set up tubeless. Both will fit whatever tire you want to run just fine.

On Thursday, November 19, 2020 at 8:11:36 AM UTC-6 brian.le...@gmail.com wrote:

I have a set of A23s on my Raleigh High Life. I like them, but like many velocity rims, they seem "soft." On my A23s, the rim wall came in contact with an unknown force somewhat stronger than it, and pressed in a few minor dents. Structurally still OK, just a bit annoying. I've also dented the bead wall on 3 Velocity Blunts in the past. Miraculously, they've continued to hold a tubeless seal.

Velocities are alright. The Brevets mentioned above are top notch.

On Wednesday, November 18, 2020 at 8:53:44 AM UTC-6 jsk_o...@mac.com wrote:

I can say that my experience with A23's was that they were super-tight to mount with tubes no matter the tire, across the board, including both that you mentioned. So much so that I ended up only ever owning one set and did not feel remotely compelled to purchase another. You didn't mention whether you were going to run tubes or tubeless but I run tubes myself and have switched nearly all my wheel sets to Pacenti Brevets. Your riding surface split is identical to mine, btw. I don't have experience with Quills so can't comment there.

On Tuesday, November 17, 2020 at 1:44:43 PM UTC-5 Nick in Oakland wrote:

Hey y'all, 

Looking too get a new wheel set. It's gonna be on a bike that's 70:30 / road:gravel, running either Babyshoe Passes or Switchback Hills. 

I was looking at Quills and A23s. Quills would probably be good all round, as far as I've read, but I want to assess if the $100/set savings is worth it to get A23s over Quills. I see that some folks use A23s with SBHs, even though it's not specced for it. Would anybody be able to speak on using A23s with a loaded front + some light gravel?

Thanks in advance y'all. 

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "650b" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to 650b+uns...@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/650b/af3530f2-384e-4693-a99c-3cef4c4ba31fn%40googlegroups.com.

[Harry Travis]

I can see from the track being abraded into a polished new A23 rim from KOOL Stop pads mounted in Paul cantis that the brake track is  not ‘too narrow’ unless there’s some engineering standard Chris can point to. 

There seems enough to me. For the same 430g -450g of a 13-15mm internal width 622 fast bike aluminum rim, I’d like a rim track that wore out pads faster than it wore itself, but that’s not gonna happen, ever. (Mavic Reflex(?), a RIP)

Veteran builder at Stoic Wheels had nothing negative to say about these. 

Anybody want to one or more?

Harry Travis

Portland OR, usa

--

Harry P Travis

14.2

On Nov 19, 2020, at 1:58 PM, Chris Cullum <cullum...@gmail.com> wrote:



To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/650b/CAGAMt95H2K_Kv6tpwwwn%2BbTjAT2rX_Ut-2j6gXjba2WTXRD1jg%40mail.gmail.com.

[Chris Cullum]

On Thu., Nov. 19, 2020, 14:27 Harry Travis, <travis...@gmail.com> wrote:

I can see from the track being abraded into a polished new A23 rim from KOOL Stop pads mounted in Paul cantis that the brake track is  not ‘too narrow’ unless there’s some engineering standard Chris can point to. 

Well I'm not sure what "engineering standards" you want me to cite but I measure the brake track height of an A23 at ~9mm which barely as wide as most brake pads. As they wear they move up or down, depending on the type of brake, which leaves very little room. IMO the brake track should be taller. I don't think I'm the only one.

[Michael Arciero]

It is the  Quill that has the narrower brake track. It did require careful alignment of the pads in my case, but not before I had scuffed up a 2mm section of the polished portion of the rim. Some have sanded a bevel into the pad or taken other measures.

You really cant go wrong with either rim. I've found both to be equally very easy to mount tires. The Quill is actually the latest evolution of the A23, according to Velocity. I got a set of the Quill a couple of years ago and they have been great-no problems, have stayed true, etc.  3mm wider, which is cool for my purposes. They look great-especially the polished-but are expensive at $170. 

I thought the A23 were discontinued. Granary Cycles (I think) was blowing them out a couple of years ago. 

[ericni...@gmail.com]

I’ve used both A23 and Quill rims with SBH tires. Also Pacenti Brevet. In my experience, they are all good rims, with some differences which may or may not be significant to you. 

In order of depth of experience, I’ve used A23 rims for many years, both symmetrical and offset spoke bed. Long enough to wear through several brake tracks (10’s of thousands of miles). I’ve got 4 in current use, and have worn through or replaced about 6 others. I’ve got 2 Brevets in current use, and have replaced one. I’ve got 4 Quills in current use, all of which are relatively new, so none have been replaced yet.

All of these rims are about equal in terms of fitting tires. With tubeless rim tape and good technique, I can mount and dismount RH tires without tools.  Each will seat the bead on a RH TC tire without the need to drastically over inflate. Sometimes it takes a little time or bead lube before the tire fully seats, typical of many modern tire-rim combinations.

Stiffness: The A23 is the most flexible of this bunch. If you mate this rim to a highly dished rear hub, it’s a very good idea to use the offset spoke bed version. You’ll reclaim a small but critical amount of spoke tension on the non-drive side, making the wheel more robust and improving its longevity. The Quill is the stiffest, due to its deep section. The increased radial stiffness makes it play better on a highly dished wheel. A radially stiff rim helps keep the NDS spokes from momentarily going slack under transient loads. It’s that momentary slackness that kills spokes. 

Width: Quill is about 1-2 mm wider than the Brevet, which in turn is about 1 mm wider than the A23. SBH tires work fine on all of these rims. The tire sidewalls may be slightly more vulnerable on the wider rim.

Ease of building and truing: the Quill has the edge here. They build up very straight and true, with exceptionally even tension, even at the rim joint. That said, none of these rims are bad in this regard. 

Overall I’m currently favoring the Quill. The Brevet has a more classic look,  but their relative flexibility and symmetrical spoke bed makes them a less robust choice for a rear wheel with a 11-speed compatible hub and a heavier rider. For a less dished rear wheel, or a lighter rider, they are fine. 

Eric Nichols

newfields nh 

[satanas]

I notice the 700c Quills are available with 20 or 24°, but not in 650b. Some time ago there were suggestions here that <28° might/would become available, but I guess it's never going to happen. It's easier to get 20/24° road hubsets than 28° these days, and that would do the job IMHO, while 32° is verging on overkill.  :-(

Later,

Stephen

[Evan Estern]

I am currently running 32 hole Quills on my 650b Norther-Lyon, 10x2 drivetrain.  I can only compare them to the older set of Velocity Synergies that I replaced.  The difference in handling is very noticeable, especially on gravel: The Quills just track better over the rough stuff.  Handling is more precise, again more noticeable on gravel and especially on descents.  On pavement I feel like they bring out the best in Jeff Lyon's lightly built frame, the stiffness of the wheels seems to put the flex in all the right places.  Acceleration is snappy and high speed handling is confidence inspiring.  I had to true the Synergies every 3-4k miles, especially the rear.  My Quills are approaching 5k miles and are still perfectly straight and I tend to underbike so they've seen plenty of abuse.  My only criticism is that the brake track is slightly narrower than Rene Herse/MAFAC Koolstop pads.  So far that has not been a big deal, but the pads need to be positioned very precisely.  I don't know if it's the Quills or if I just lucked out with the brake setup, but I rarely get any squeals or other sounds from hard braking.  I got the black anodized ones because they were cheaper, but I really like the way they look with black alloy nipples and all black BSP tires (+black fenders).

[chrisr...@gmail.com]

I'm running the 28h Quill 650b rims on my new Nobilette and really love them so far.  They are built up with Sapim Laser spokes, White T11 rear hub, and Sondelux SL wide body front hub.  Set up tubeless with BSP Extralights.  Wheels are plenty laterally stiff for me when climbing steep grades or bombing a descent, yet still plenty compliant for the 50% of the time I'm riding gravel.  After getting used to super wide gravel rims, I wanted the widest rim I could find, so the Quill was the obvious choice.  My only criticism is that the quality of the polishing is a little lackluster.  

[djm323]

My experience with A23s is very different:  I find them easy to mount / unmount tubed BSPs with only my fingers, especially after initial mounting.  I use Stan's tubeless tape.  They are such an easy fit I was concerned that they would not seat straight, but they always have seated properly by the time they reach normal inflation pressure (45 - 55 psi).

Dan

Chicagaux • USA

On Wednesday, November 18, 2020 at 8:53:44 AM UTC-6 jsk_o...@mac.com wrote:

[Jason Fuller]

That's interesting that you found A23's tight, my experience across two sets and several tires is quite the opposite, but I've only run supple folding bead tires (all Panaracer-made from various brands).  Never need to use tire levers, mounting or dismounting. 

I'm a big fan of the A23, I've used them for up to 48mm tires and while wider would be better at that point, they've stayed true through a lot of abuse (as a mtb'er on a rando bike is bound to do)

[Bruce Herbitter]

A23s have a well in the center, like some other tubless-ready rims. Squeezing the tire so it's over the center creates space between the bead and the rim. I discovered this 1st on Cliffhangers when trying to help a friend.  I just got a new set of wheels and spec'd A23 rims on the build.  Very happy on the 1st couple of rides.