Tektro r559 - poor braking

[L DB]

Hello,

I am experiencing a bewildering issue.

I have a 650b conversion using tektro r559 brakes, the version with the tiny lock for the quick release.

The rear brake works very well, but the front...baaarely slows me down.

The brake is mushy,and very weak.

To give you context, the 40 years old clb single pivot on my wife bike, is way more powerful!!!! ( I can nearly do a stoppie)

I can easily lock the rear wheel.

The pads are perfectly aligned sitting 2mm from the rim ,the brake are centered

My setup

Campagnolo centaur 2009 10 speed shifters
Compressionless cables, cut flat
Dura ace brake pads.

[Eric Daume]

I've had these brakes on a few different builds and find them weak myself. Adequate in the dry, barely there in the wet. 

Sounds like you've already upgraded the pads and have decent housing, so I'm at a loss why you're front is so different from your rear.

Eric

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[William Lindsay]

The only two ideas I have are:

You accidentally didn't seat the housing completely at the lever, taped over it and the mushiness and lack of power is the housing moving towards the real stop inside the lever, but it doesn't get there. 

You have two different rims and the front rim just doesn't play well with that brake pad. 

If those are both impossible, then I have nothing else. 

Bill Lindsay

El Cerrito, CA

[Josiah Anderson]

I had r559s on two bikes, and I experienced exactly what you describe here. I think the front and rear brakes are equally mediocre, but the rear is easy to skid because of the forward weight transfer while braking.

Also, which is your dominant hand? I am right-handed, and found that switching to British/Italian style (right lever to front brake) made my front brake feel MUCH more powerful. I didn't want to switch all my bikes, though, so I still run left-front.

Josiah
Tacoma, WA

[Justin, Oakland]

I would recable and house to fix this. Check the Ferrell/cable seating as Bill said.
I would also upgrade to compressionless housing. It makes a huge difference. I have these brakes on my Trek710 650b conversion and almost endo’d the other day and find myself skidding often.

These brakes can be just as powerful as other rim brakes but can be slightly finicky.

-J

[Justin, Oakland]

I see now you are already using compressionless housing. Perhaps it is too short and not seating all the way in the brifter.

[Steve Chan]

   I would echo what others have said about the cabling. Once, I was in a rush and put together a brake run without a ferrule, because I had read somewhere that they weren't really that important, and while the brakes worked okay for a bit, they eventually turned into crap because the compressionless housing was not seating/anchored properly. Trimming the frayed housing and putting a proper ferrule on it cleaned up the problem instantly.

   It might also be helpful to show some photos of your brakes, how the cable runs are, how much space is between the rims and pads, etc... a listing of parts still leaves out lots of vital information.

[Luca De Battista]

Good point Steve.

I will take pictures asap.

The ferrule is there at the brake, but at the shifter the housing fits very snugly, so a ferrule it's probably not needed...or maybe I am wrong.

[David Cummings]

Are you seeing flex in the brake arms? I have used these in three different builds and they have all worked adequately and all the usual advise has been given. Other than rechecking or recabling, I don’t know.

On the other side of the coin, I just installed DC 710’s on a 650b conversion and spent at least an hour fine tuning them to get satisfactory braking - mostly involving setting the brake pad angle and distance as close as possible. There is noticeable flex in the brake arms when I squeeze hard. Not sure if setting your pads any closer would help.

David “I brake for 650b” in MT

[Joe Bernard]

I've had this issue with long- and medium-reach Tektros; it comes up in road tests of carbon/alu bikes that are spec'd with them, too. They just aren't very good brakes.

[Justin August]

I disagree. If this is true then there aren’t many good brakes because I’ve heard complaints about nearly every single brake in this regard.

-J

> On Feb 12, 2020, at 8:58 AM, Joe Bernard <joer...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> I've had this issue with long- and medium-reach Tektros; it comes up in road tests of carbon/alu bikes that are spec'd with them, too. They just aren't very good brakes.
>

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[Joseph Bernard]

I disagree with your disagreement. I've never ridden a bad Shimano caliper, I've ridden a bunch of bad Tektros. 

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[Justin August]

But I’ve heard plenty of folks complain about them.

Anecdotes != Data

[Joe Bernard]

My "anecdotes" are from 30 years of riding, buying and selling a ton of bikes. Tektro calipers are serviceable with good pads on certain frames with certain levers, but it's always a crapshoot with them. Is what I'm saying.

[Ryan Watson]

What's the difference between the 559 and the 556? The 556 calipers look identical and are my all time favorite brakes.
I've used them on probably a dozen bikes. Super easy to set up, I've not once heard one squeal, and the stopping power is as good or better than any other sidepull, centerpull, or cantilever I've tried.
I use the same Yokozuna Mathauser type pads on all my brakes. Levers are either 8s STI or Cane Creek SCR5 (or the Tektro equivalent)

Ryan

> On Feb 12, 2020, at 10:35, Joe Bernard <joer...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> My "anecdotes" are from 30 years of riding, buying and selling a ton of bikes. Tektro calipers are serviceable with good pads on certain frames with certain levers, but it's always a crapshoot with them. Is what I'm saying.
>

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[Jim A]

Good quality ferrules (aluminum, thick material at the end) are very important on compressionless brake housing. Usually they come with the housing. Without them, some strands of the housing may well eventually be pushed through the housing stop, changing the whole feel of the system. Thinwall steel ferrules often aren't strong enough to prevent this.

[Justin August]

They’re terrible trash Ryan.
Throw them out.

-J

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[Justin August]

I had some thin, crappy ferrules fail with compressionless housing in this exact way. I haven’t fixed them and the braking has gone shitty. This is with Paul Racers tho.

-J

On Feb 12, 2020, at 10:20 AM, Jim A <jamesmarionber...@gmail.com> wrote:

Good quality ferrules (aluminum, thick material at the end) are very important on compressionless brake housing. Usually they come with the housing. Without them, some strands of the housing may well eventually be pushed through the housing stop, changing the whole feel of the system. Thinwall steel ferrules often aren't strong enough to prevent this.

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[Joseph Bernard]

Look, I've honestly expressed my opinion on these things based on many years of working with them. No one is required to feel the same way, if get 'em to work for you then yippee ky yay everybody wins. 

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[David Cummings]

Agreed that opinions based on experience should be shared, but there is no point minimizing others’ experiences. Let’s offer constructive criticism, not negative.

David in MT

PS - I think the only difference between the 556 and 559 is the “quick release” mechanism to open the calipers during wheel removal.

[Eli Torgeson]

One caveat about the ferules is that campy (record ergo power) should NOT have a ferule on the brifter side. They are intended to be used without one. Jamming one in risks, well, getting one jammed in there, and maybe maligned or squished. You Centaurs may be the same.

I also use these Tektro brakes and think they are a bit weak, compared at least to the dura ace short reach that preceded the conversion to 650b.

What that tells me is that it is not the altitude; Ryan and I both live in Albuquerque. I will try to bring my bike by Ryan and see if he can work his magic (or even thinks my brakes feel weak) and get back to you.

BTW, I toyed with the idea of picking up Gran Cru brakes, but the reach seems just shy of what I need. Those are supposed to be stiff, er the good kind of stiff brakes, but with good modulation.

Eli
Who is not looking for brakes that plane, in Albuquerque

[Ryan Watson]

> On Feb 12, 2020, at 17:47, 'Eli Torgeson' via 650b <65...@googlegroups.com> wrote:
>
> What that tells me is that it is not the altitude;

I can confirm that they even work at 14,000 feet!

> Ryan and I both live in Albuquerque. I will try to bring my bike by Ryan and see if he can work his magic

The only magic is whatever red pixie dust they put in those Mathauser pads ;-)

> (or even thinks my brakes feel weak) and get back to you.

More than once, I've had someone ask for my help with "weak" brakes that I thought were way too strong, so maybe I just have low expectations or strong hands!

Ryan

[Joseph Bernard]

That's another thing about different folks having different experiences with the same parts. Campy used to have notoriously weak brakes that they called "speed reducers" because they didn't believe in strong, grabby brakes. Tektro calipers feel like speed reducers to me and I don't like it; on the other hand my Brompton brakes feel the same way and it makes sense to my brain because I don't want a handful of stoppy on that twitchy little front wheel. Your results may vary! 

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[Nick Payne]

I have three sets of those brakes - two pairs of the previous model R556 and one pair of the R559 - in use on bikes, and the braking both front and rear on all sets seems quite satisfactory to me. I've had them touring in the high mountains where you can be braking two or three times a minute for 20 or 30 minutes on a descent, and they were fine there. One of the bikes I have them on is using Campagnolo Chorus 2011 levers, so probably identical pull to your Centaur levers. I'd suspect a problem with either the cable housing or inner if you can't get decent braking with the front brake.

Nick

p.s. When fitting those Tektro brakes, I always immediately discard the stock pads and replace them with either Koolstop or Swissstop pads.

[satanas]

I'm in agreement with what's been said already, but am wondering if the (unspecified) compressionless housing might perhaps be splitting out of sight within the lever, as shift housing can with dodgy ferrules. I agree that Ergopower levers don't normally require or allow ferrules at the lever end, but perhaps if the *housing* expects it to be there that could be the problem. (Clutching at straws here.)

Compressionless housing won't change braking power per se, but should help prevent the levers bottoming out on the bars, not that I would have thought that's a likely scenario with this combo.

Otherwise, I'd think decent pads and vaguely acceptable adjustment ought to give an adequate result, at least up with ancient single pivot sidepulls.

Later,
Stephen

[L DB]

The rims are the same, they are both Mach 1 mx rims

The housing seems seated enough, mainly beacuse that the second or third housing I've tried and the result is invariably the same: crap

[L DB]

This is actually na interesting suggestion, thanks!

[Alex I]

I would check the housing length through the full brake actuation. When you're trying new sections are you cutting to length based on the old length? When I swapped from medium reach Shimano BR-5500 to long reach Tektro R559s for my 650b conversion, everything looked good to the eye. But when I applied the brake, the housing wasn't quite long enough to stay seated on the brake. It would reach the rim, but couldn't really clamp down with force, if that makes sense. The long reach appeared to move way more than the medium reach, requiring significantly more housing, I think I ended up doing 2" longer (and maybe have a slight excess now).

If you do decide to give it one more try, consider cutting a section of housing over-long as a check - maybe that could eliminate that possibility. Or take the handlebar tape off for a test ride, leave only the last wrap or two around the housing on the bars, and see if that extra length/flex performs any better. Problem I had was I also needed more brake cable since I had cut it only about 1" longer than the medium reach brake needed.

Alex, breaking brakes in CO

[L DB]

Yeah, that's possible. tomorrow I will double check the compressionless housing (some linear bmx stuff) to see if there is some splitting.

Problem is that I've tried with dura-ace housing, no splitting detected at the end, and the result still is crappy braking. (that's why I went with the compressionless housing)

Pads are also Dura-ace...

My handlebar are still unwrapped, so it is easy to change.

I am also thinking that I've maybe got a defective unit, since I've another bike with tektro r559, and the braking is OK. I can perform a stoppie from the hoods —  but the brake pads are much higher in the slots.

[L DB]

The housing have been cut at the right lenght specifically for this brake, and it is reasonably looose/tight under braking 

[Brad]

Switching out the housing with a lined but spiral flavor will rule out housing defects a factor if you still have the same experience.

I suspect there was a reason that center pull brakes were popular once.

[Joseph Bernard]

Ah, that's interesting info. Those are long arms and they get longer if you have to run the pads at the bottom to reach the rim. The knock I've heard on these calipers is they flex, reducing that solid braking feel you're looking for. Are the pads higher in the rear?

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[Luca De Battista]

nope, they are low. 

but they are flexing toward the bridge, so very little. 

--

Luca De Battista

[Stephen Poole]

Hi Luca,

Are we talking about inadequate braking power, or about poor lever feel? These are not the same thing. If the levers are overly spongy then compressionless housing should help, however, it won't change the system's mechanical advantage, or how effectively the pads grip the rims. FWIW, I've had no problems with either Koolstop or Dura-Ace pads.

The lower the pads are in the caliper slots, the longer the reach, and thus the lower the MA. Ergopower levers have higher MA than more recent (7900+) Shimano levers, so it's unlikely they're the problem here, but maybe the long reach needed has reduced the MA enough to be annoying. Back in the 1980s I ordered a custom road frame which was intended to be used with Campag SR single pivot "Piccolo" short reach calipers, but it instead arrived requiring normal reach (57mm) calipers. I ended up fitting drop bolts front and rear, and that improved brake power quite noticeably.

You could always try one of the bolt-on BMX front U brakes, but that's probably just opening another can of worms.

Later,

Stephen

[L DB]

The feeling at the lever is good with compressionless housing. Very spongy with traditional housing (lever bottoming out)

In both cases, braking power is inadequate. Tomorrow I will post some pics.

[L DB]

Justin, what levers are you using? Thanks

[Steve Chan]

On Thu, Feb 13, 2020 at 9:01 AM Stephen Poole <nsc.e...@gmail.com> wrote:

FWIW, I've had no problems with either Koolstop or Dura-Ace pads.

    I suspect most people using these tektro 559s for 650B are using the red brake pad formulas to maximize braking power. Dura Ace is nice stuff, but I'm not convinced their black brake pad compound is going to be as "grabby" as a red pad.

[Justin August]

I am using SRAM Rival 10sp brifters or SRAM S500 levers. On another bike used PAUL leavers and Dia-Compe 80s moto style long levers and Shimano flat bar levers that Riv sells.

> On Feb 13, 2020, at 12:22 PM, L DB <luca...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Justin, what levers are you using? Thanks

>
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[L DB]

There is a lot of flex in the front caliper. Also, I am under the impression the caliper is not "grabbing the rim with enough strength". Even from the drops, the braking power is just embarrassing.

[Joe Bernard]

I wonder if the flex is in the fork. Not that I have a clue of such design matters, but the bike you're using started with much shorter brake arms.

[Justin August]

I really want to see a picture of this setup.

> On Feb 13, 2020, at 12:31 PM, L DB <luca...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> There is a lot of flex in the front caliper. Also, I am under the impression the caliper is not "grabbing the rim with enough strength". Even from the drops, the braking power is just embarrassing.
>

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[Jim A]

I also wonder about the Dura Ace pads. These tend to be very hard, and work well in short reach brake calipers that don't flex much. Long reach brakes often feel better with "grippier" pads like Kool Stop salmons. These pads are flexier, and the long arms are flexy, hence compressionless housing can help the system not to be too spongy.

On Thursday, February 13, 2020 at 12:23:05 PM UTC-8, Steve Chan wrote:

[recarcar]

I have been experimenting with different pads with the 559s and the equivalent Rivendell silvers over the years. I have used yokozuna, shimano, stock tektro, and kool stops, and have found the kool stops and yokozuna pads to work MUCH better than the shimano or stock tektro pads. With the kool stops or the yokozunas, perhaps best with the yokozuna pads, I have not found them to work any better/worse than other side pulls that I am used to like ultegras etc. Of course, there are so many variables it's hard to pin down exactly why it has worked out for me this way. 

[Luca De Battista]

Here are a few pictures of my setup. As you can see:

• A ferrule will never fit inside the shifters
• The brake pads are toed in, and parallel to the rims
• The housing  has the right lenght 

 

To fix the issue I am considering, in the order (since I am rather sure the housing is OK)

1.  Swapping the pads with some red koolstop 
2. If that does not work, test the current setup  with a 700c front wheel to see if the brake is a dud or if it is a cable issue
3. Recabling the whole thing
4. Swapping brake cables (front to right hand / back to left hand) 

--

Luca De Battista

[Joe Bernard]

KoolStops should help. I'm not sure we ever discussed how old these brakes are, those pads might have lost their soft grippiness.

Another thought is swap a good short-reach in there with a 700c wheel to see if that works with your current lever and cable, but you may not have one in your stash.

[L DB]

Pads are new. I am already considering doing that, since I have both wheel and caliper

[Justin August]

That housing looks shorter than I run mine TBH. I would add a 1/2 to 1 inch and see how it works. Comoresssionless is stiffer and doesn’t bend as easy. Could be creating drag in the system. 

On Feb 14, 2020, at 2:10 AM, Luca De Battista <luca...@gmail.com> wrote:



<IMG_20200214_102844.jpg>

<IMG_20200214_102824.jpg>

<IMG_20200212_222834.jpg>

<IMG_20200214_102947.jpg>

[Luca De Battista]

Actually, it was longer before, and the kink was way too much. it made no difference  in terms of performance.

--

Luca De Battista

[Dan Leahul]

It doesn't look like this has been mentioned yet, so I thought I'd chime in. Working as a mechanic for many years, I recall these brake calipers did require some maintenance over time. One particular customer was complaining about the same issue with the same front brake, and when the lever was squeezed, the whole caliper flexed because all the bolts holding it together were loose. If you haven't yet, I would take the caliper off the bike and ensure all the nuts and fasteners are torqued to spec.

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[Justin August]

Good point. Some loctite on the offending bolt can help too. 

On Feb 14, 2020, at 8:06 AM, Dan Leahul <danl...@gmail.com> wrote:



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[L DB]

Dan, good sugestion.

I will double check the bolts, even if the caliper hasn't a lot of mileage.

On Friday, February 14, 2020 at 5:06:51 PM UTC+1, Dan Leahul wrote:

It doesn't look like this has been mentioned yet, so I thought I'd chime in. Working as a mechanic for many years, I recall these brake calipers did require some maintenance over time. One particular customer was complaining about the same issue with the same front brake, and when the lever was squeezed, the whole caliper flexed because all the bolts holding it together were loose. If you haven't yet, I would take the caliper off the bike and ensure all the nuts and fasteners are torqued to spec.

On Fri, Feb 14, 2020 at 10:38 AM Luca De Battista <luca...@gmail.com> wrote:

Actually, it was longer before, and the kink was way too much. it made no difference  in terms of performance.

Il giorno ven 14 feb 2020 alle ore 16:36 Justin August <justin...@gmail.com> ha scritto:

That housing looks shorter than I run mine TBH. I would add a 1/2 to 1 inch and see how it works. Comoresssionless is stiffer and doesn’t bend as easy. Could be creating drag in the system. 

On Feb 14, 2020, at 2:10 AM, Luca De Battista <luca...@gmail.com> wrote:



Here are a few pictures of my setup. As you can see:

• A ferrule will never fit inside the shifters
• The brake pads are toed in, and parallel to the rims
• The housing  has the right lenght 

 

To fix the issue I am considering, in the order (since I am rather sure the housing is OK)

1.  Swapping the pads with some red koolstop 
2. If that does not work, test the current setup  with a 700c front wheel to see if the brake is a dud or if it is a cable issue
3. Recabling the whole thing
4. Swapping brake cables (front to right hand / back to left hand) 

Il giorno gio 13 feb 2020 alle ore 22:36 Justin August <justin...@gmail.com> ha scritto:

I really want to see a picture of this setup.

> On Feb 13, 2020, at 12:31 PM, L DB <luca...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> There is a lot of flex in the front caliper. Also, I am under the impression the caliper is not "grabbing the rim with enough strength".  Even from the drops, the braking power is just embarrassing.
>
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Luca De Battista

<IMG_20200214_102844.jpg>

<IMG_20200214_102824.jpg>

<IMG_20200212_222834.jpg>

<IMG_20200214_102947.jpg>

--

Luca De Battista

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[Joe Bernard]

What a crazy situation. I personally think these brakes are weak in the best of circumstances but the front shouldn't be almost unusable, which is what you're describing. That's quite a thin, spindly-looking fork, I'm really curious if you're getting a doubling of flex from fork on through to those long brake arms.

[Ryan Watson]

I tried the Dura Ace pads a while back after reading rave reviews. For example:

https://www.gravelbike.com/first-impressions-shimano-dura-ace-brake-pads/

I don't recall now if they seemed better or worse in terms of braking power over my usual red Yokozunas, but they would pick up bits of gravel and scrape them against the rim which was precisely why I started using the Mathauser pads in the first place back in the 80s. 

The only pads I use now are the red Yokozuna pads which apparently use the Mathauser formula under license. 

http://www.yokozunausa.com/brakeinserts.html

Ryan

[Benz Ouyang]

On Friday, February 14, 2020 at 7:25:20 AM UTC-8, L DB wrote:

Pads are new. I am already considering doing that, since I have both wheel and caliper

I haven't seen this mentioned yet, but since we're running out of ideas, have you tried cleaning the rim's braking surfaces? Use a green Scotch-Brite or similar, with maybe isopropanol or degreaser. I spray Purple Power degreaser onto the rim and wear surfaces of brake pads, and give them a scrub when I'm washing my bikes; the brakes always come out squeaky clean with a strong initial "bite".

[Steve Chan]

On Fri, Feb 14, 2020 at 2:10 AM Luca De Battista <luca...@gmail.com> wrote:

Here are a few pictures of my setup. As you can see:

• A ferrule will never fit inside the shifters

   I have Jagwire compressionless housing ferrules that have a step down in order to fit in Campy brifters (I'm using older Campy Record 10sp). I'm not sure if it would help you, or if others are using a Campy->Tektro559 setup without ferrules. 

[L DB]

Could it be that fork flex impairs brake performance? the frame is quite stout, a french made meral built with Columbus Aelle tubing. the fork is no lightweight either.

[L DB]

I've just cleaned the sidewalls with isopropyl alcohol and they were filthy. I've also swapped the dura ace pads with some red kool stops. Will report back.

[Joseph Bernard]

I'm sure it's an outlier in things to consider, but I know a canti brake will be weak and mushy if it's shuddering on its mounts. Which is how I got the visual of a fork and brake arms both moving when you grab the lever, but it's admittedly a random uneducated guess. 

On Fri, Feb 14, 2020, 10:43 AM L DB <luca...@gmail.com> wrote:

Could it be that fork flex impairs brake performance? the frame is quite stout, a french made meral built with Columbus Aelle tubing. the fork is no lightweight either.

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[Justin August]

Could also be loosey goosey at the recessed bolt in that regard.

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[Luca De Battista]

Well, I've checked the bold, it was tight enough. On the other hand, I can flex the brake arm by at least 5mm with my weak, white collar hands. I think flex is unavoidable, given the fact that the pads are very close to the bottom of the arm slots.

--

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[Steve Palincsar]

Isn't the Tektro r559 a sidepull?

On 2/14/20 1:48 PM, Joseph Bernard wrote:

I'm sure it's an outlier in things to consider, but I know a canti brake will be weak and mushy if it's shuddering on its mounts. Which is how I got the visual of a fork and brake arms both moving when you grab the lever, but it's admittedly a random uneducated guess. 

On Fri, Feb 14, 2020, 10:43 AM L DB <luca...@gmail.com> wrote:

Could it be that fork flex impairs brake performance? the frame is quite stout, a french made meral built with Columbus Aelle tubing. the fork is no lightweight either.

-- 
Steve Palincsar
Alexandria, Virginia 
USA

[Joseph Bernard]

5mm?? Wow. The KoolStops are the next step I'd say, but now I'm REALLY curious how much difference the short-reach/700c experiment would make. 

[Justin August]

Does the rear caliper have the same flex?

[Luca De Battista]

well maybe not 5mm but the flex is visible. the rear caliper has the same flex

--

Luca De Battista

[Mark in Beacon]

I used these brakes on a 650B conversion this past summer, brand new, with  the stock factory pads. With the STI levers that were on the bike when it was 700C, I was amazed at how well they stopped, front and rear. Since I don't use STI, I swapped out the bars and, I will need to check, but used some older, plain vanilla Shimano or DC aero levers. Performance was noticeably not as good. I did tweak things a bit to get it acceptable, but still not as good as with the STI levers. (This was the DX5000 I posted a pic of in another thread here. At least, I think it was here.) Not sure this helps except to say that these brakes can work well. And they can work not so well. But it should be possible to get them to work well, IMO. But sometimes things remain mysterious, and you move on.

On Friday, February 14, 2020 at 2:20:08 PM UTC-5, Luca De Battista wrote:

well maybe not 5mm but the flex is visible. the rear caliper has the same flex

Il giorno ven 14 feb 2020 alle ore 20:11 Joseph Bernard <joer...@gmail.com> ha scritto:

5mm?? Wow. The KoolStops are the next step I'd say, but now I'm REALLY curious how much difference the short-reach/700c experiment would make. 

On Fri, Feb 14, 2020, 11:05 AM Luca De Battista <luca...@gmail.com> wrote:

Well, I've checked the bold, it was tight enough. On the other hand, I can flex the brake arm by at least 5mm with my weak, white collar hands. I think flex is unavoidable, given the fact that the pads are very close to the bottom of the arm slots.

Il giorno ven 14 feb 2020 alle ore 19:49 Justin August <justin...@gmail.com> ha scritto:

Could also be loosey goosey at the recessed bolt in that regard.

On Feb 14, 2020, at 10:48 AM, Joseph Bernard <joer...@gmail.com> wrote:

I'm sure it's an outlier in things to consider, but I know a canti brake will be weak and mushy if it's shuddering on its mounts. Which is how I got the visual of a fork and brake arms both moving when you grab the lever, but it's admittedly a random uneducated guess. 

On Fri, Feb 14, 2020, 10:43 AM L DB <luca...@gmail.com> wrote:

Could it be that fork flex impairs brake performance? the frame is quite stout, a french made meral built with Columbus Aelle tubing. the fork is no lightweight either.

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[Eric Daume]

I remember watching these brakes on my fork fork flex enough they moved up and rubbed on the tire. I have to make sure to run them clear on the bottom of the rim, not centered.

Eric

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[George Cline]

It's weird how there is such a difference in people's view of these brakes. Personally, I have been quite satisfied with their performance on my 650B Mercian conversion. I do notice some flex, more so on the drive-side arm of the front brake, but that doesn't hurt my braking.

As to the OP's situation, the one thing that stands out to my eye is that the housing doesn't lay on the bar, making me think that it might not be seating properly. That compressionless housing might not be flexible enough for that routing...I just use plain old spiral wound housing and it's been fine.

George in NoCal

[Justin August]

That’s my feeling too - it looks a bit short.

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[Alex I]

When my housing was too short on these brakes, it was really only the last bit of the caliper actuation. It was a little deceptive because they’d hit the rim but not clamp down right. They need more housing to “pull” down than you’d think! If you watch one while you give it a good squeeze, you’ll see what I mean. From the picture, it’s hard to tell if it’s too short. OP, you said it’s good so you probably know what’s right. I would maybe even try the brake lever and watch the actuation without a wheel installed to see it through the full motion and whether the housing gets “maxed out”.

Eric - if you’re having to set the pads even lower for flex it probably then flexes even more!

Regarding flex, do any competitor side pulls flex less? What’s the better still somewhat budget option, centerpulls like a DC-750?

Alex in CO

[Steve Chan]

On Fri, Feb 14, 2020 at 3:51 PM George Cline <george....@gmail.com> wrote:

That compressionless housing might not be flexible enough for that routing...I just use plain old spiral wound housing and it's been fine.

   I've been using that routing with compressionless housing on several bikes since over 10 years ago. I find that as good as old fashioned spiral housing may be, compressionless is clearly better and converted a long time ago. 

[L DB]

Alex, this is a good suggestion.i will check the caliper actuation without wheel installed.

I am trying to sort the brake issue before wrapping the handlebars...

[L DB]

If all else fails , I am also considering to install a set of mafac raids that I got dirt cheap here in France.

But that means opening another nb can of worms...

[L DB]

I've tried squeezing the levers without wheel on. They bottom out long before the housing "tenses".

[Jeff Bertolet]

The compressionless housing shouldn’t be run all the way to the shifter. The Jagwire kit should come with a short section , 6”, of regular brake housing to be installed into the shifter without a ferrule. It has a double ended ferrule you run compressionless the rest of the way. Compressionless housing WILL pull through into the shifter eventually.

Brake pads can dry out, even on the shelf. If they were sitting around in your parts bin or the distributors warehouse for more than a year, I would try Kool Stop pads.

[Mark in Beacon]

I think most brakes that have a longer reach get mixed reviews here/iBob. As do many/most models of canti brakes. I think the only brakes that don't generate much disagreement are modern dual pivot. Long reach brakes start out with a disadvantage, so everything needs to align to get decent levels of performance.

On Friday, February 14, 2020 George Cline wrote: It's weird how there is such a difference in people's view of these brakes.

[L DB]

I do not ha jagwire compressionless housing, but some other that do not allow this. However, I could fabricate my own if I find a double ended ferrule.

[L DB]

In any case, using KOOL stop pads ( not particularly fresh) and cleaning the ribs with isopropyl alcohol did wonders.

I can now stop, and even raise the back wheel from the drops.

Still..since the frame clearance is quite a lot, I am pondering an eventual swap to 700x32 or 35 in the future

[Joe Bernard]

Well that was quite a journey. You have brakes now! 👍

[Steve Chan]

   That's great news! Though I think in the long term, you should look into a set of something like these:

https://www.amazon.com/Aluminum-Housing-Ferrules-Colors-options/dp/B079CJMQSW/ref=pd_sbs_468_3/133-7359031-7002664
https://www.amazon.com/Jagwire-Shifter-Ferrule-pieces-Options/dp/B01BVOVC78/ref=sr_1_2

   This may be ideal for you:
https://www.amazon.com/Jagwire-EZ-Bend-Housing-Segments-Compressionless/dp/B016OV0IBY/ref=sr_1_10

   My experience is that compressionless housing without ferrules doesn't work well in the long term.

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[Luca De Battista]

Thanks, I'll check them out. 

I am based in France, and I have already found online a jagwire double ended ferrule, so I will be able to add an additional spiral segment to my compressionless housing.

[ThermionicScott]

Makes you wonder if folks complaining about flexy brakes often have something completely else wrong in the system, and have to squeeze too hard to get decent braking, doesn't it?

- Scott

[Joseph Bernard]

It does not make me wonder this. I've run these brakes with KoolStops and they work ok, but I prefer a more solid-feeling brake that requires less hand pressure. I do not like them, others do. 

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[L DB]

Well, braking is OK, certainly I won't call it good...and If I need going to such an extent to get Ok braking from a brake set, I won't call it a good brake.

[Joseph Bernard]

I'll bet you'd love Paul Racers, they were miles better for me than Tektros. There's a black set for sale elsewhere on this forum. Of course you'd have to sort out cable hangers at the headtube and brake bridge, which might be more work than you're willing to dig into.  

On Sat, Feb 15, 2020, 11:44 PM L DB <luca...@gmail.com> wrote:

Well, braking is OK, certainly I won't call it good...and If I need going to such an extent to get Ok braking from a brake set, I won't call it a good brake.

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[Eric Daume]

I agree, these are mediocre brakes at best. I currently have them on one bike, which is more or less acceptable only because it's a cheap fixed gear and I don't use the brakes much.

They do look nice, though.

Eric

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[ThermionicScott]

I put a set of R559s on my wife's Raleigh mixte to convert it from 27" to 700C.  The (stock) pads are a little more than midway down the slots.  I can make the arms flex a little if I squeeze the levers, but they feel pretty solid when out riding.

Maybe I'd have a different opinion if I ever took the bike down screaming descents, I dunno.  :^)

- Scott

[Benz Ouyang]

On Saturday, February 15, 2020 at 11:51:33 PM UTC-8, Joe Bernard wrote:

I'll bet you'd love Paul Racers, they were miles better for me than Tektros. There's a black set for sale elsewhere on this forum. Of course you'd have to sort out cable hangers at the headtube and brake bridge, which might be more work than you're willing to dig into.  

I don't know if I agree with that assessment. Certainly, Paul Racer brakes are noticeably less spongey than Tektro R559 brakes, at least when used with high-leverage Campagnolo 10-speed Ergopowers; however, they don't necessarily have a whole lot more power, even if their modulation is quite a bit better. Both my Paul Racer brakes are the braze-on version, with solid cable hangers, so they're arguably the optimized version of their kind. In any case, I wouldn't hesitate taking either the Paul or Tektro brakes down the long, twisty downhill runs we have here in the SF bay area, although I prefer the Paul brakes for their modulation and aesthetics.

[L DB]

I've noticed that using flat bar brake levers helps a lot: you get the same leverage I get from the drops, which is good.

Also, mid slot means a lot less flex.

My pads are close to the bottom, and while braking hard on descents they flex so much that they sometimes touch the tyre sidewall. Since those are lightweight Pari Moto, I force myself not to think about a sudden blowout ..

[Joe Bernard]

I'd still like to see what happens with 700c wheels and shorty brakes. Maybe that bike just works better as originally designed.

[Bill M.]

I use 559's with SRAM Rival levers and Jagwire compressionless housing on my Mercian.  I haven't commented in this thread so far because it's so flat here that braking performance is mostly irrelevant, but yesterday I actually did a little climbing and descending so I had opportunity to really lay on the brakes.  I had plenty of power to take me from 30+ MPH to a full stop at the bottom of a hill without bottoming the levers.  The 559's can stop just fine.  I suspect that Benz's comment below gets at the root of the issue - do the OP's Campy levers have enough higher mechanical advantage to make the Tektro's feel spongy?

Unlike most of the folks here, I've been underwhelmed by the salmon pads I have used.  I tried SwissStop BXP (blue) pads for this build. They are not the cheapest option but they stop well and I like the feel and modulation.  

Bill

Stockton, CA

On Sunday, February 16, 2020 at 4:53:49 PM UTC-8, Benz Ouyang wrote:

(snip)Paul Racer brakes are noticeably less spongey than Tektro R559 brakes, at least when used with high-leverage Campagnolo 10-speed Ergopowers

[ThermionicScott]

+1.  If the frame were such that the pads needed to be at the very bottom for 650B, the Tektro R559s could accommodate 700C rims if the pads were moved all the way to the top.

Just for kicks, I grabbed one of my spare R559s, adjusted the pads to the bottoms and squoze the arms together with my hand down to about 23mm between the pads.  Measuring from the top of the pads to the bottom of the caliper gave me about 57mm.  If my math is right, that's enough room for 38mm tires on 700C rims. Maybe 32mm with fenders, which would be good enough for me.

Getting satisfactory braking with 650B wheels on this frame might require brazing on posts for cantis or centerpulls so you don't need so much reach (and could also open up way more to release the tire with well-chosen brakes)... I know a guy for that!  ;^)

- Scott

[Benz Ouyang]

On Monday, February 17, 2020 at 8:46:32 AM UTC-8, Bill M. wrote:

I use 559's with SRAM Rival levers and Jagwire compressionless housing on my Mercian.  I haven't commented in this thread so far because it's so flat here that braking performance is mostly irrelevant, but yesterday I actually did a little climbing and descending so I had opportunity to really lay on the brakes.  I had plenty of power to take me from 30+ MPH to a full stop at the bottom of a hill without bottoming the levers.  The 559's can stop just fine.  I suspect that Benz's comment below gets at the root of the issue - do the OP's Campy levers have enough higher mechanical advantage to make the Tektro's feel spongy?

Campagnolo Ergopowers have one of the higher mechanical advantages, so it's not surprising that they can flex the long arms of the Tektro 559 brakes, making them feel spongey. Again, sponginess does not necessarily mean a loss of power, since there is only so much braking power one can usually apply before overcoming tire traction or lifting the rear wheel.

[L DB]

Pads are 3/4 mm from bottoming, so this bike will need mid-reach brakes like tektro r539 or shimano r-451 (which I have in my embarassingly big part bin).

I wonder If levers with less mechanical advantage like vintage Shimanos 8s/10s will make a difference...

[L DB]

I think this frame should be able to fit 28mm or even 32mm tyres (real size) with fenders. The limits here is at the caliper.

I have a framebuilder friend that could braze centerpull posts for me, but IMHO this frame is not worth the effort being a midrange, fairly heavy , frame with already generous clearances.

[Dan Leahul]

Some new thoughts on a sleeping thread. 

The other week, after thinking about how larger brake pads may offer better braking performance (stealing from hydraulics, Force = Pressure x Area), I decided to install my Kool-Stop Thinline pads on my 559s, replacing the terrible stock pads. The thinlines offer quite a bit more surface area than the cartridge type pads that most people seem to be talking about in this context.

For what it's worth I am using ultegra 6800 levers, and normal cheap housing.

Now I must say that I'm currently running 700c wheels at moment, so I can't say that this will translate to 650b quite yet.

But I was blown away how much better brake feel and performance was.

The brakes feel positively un-flexy (again 700c), and I think it has to do with the very thick nut that's part of the brake pad stud. (See photo to see what I mean, sorry for dirty bike pic, it's been an early Spring).

I was expecting better braking performance due to the pad upgrade (and the performance is now truly great), but I didn't anticipate the brake feel being so damn good. Stiff and reassuring. I prefer this set up to my Paul racer centrepulls (from which I stole the thinline pads from)

Is this typical with an upgrade to a similiar high end cartridge style brake pad? I have only used the stock pads, which were bad.

Has anyone else tried this set up with kool-stop thinlines?

I'm sorry I'm not able to offer a 650b perspective, but my friend is currently building up my new wheelset.

Dan in Canada

On Mon., Feb. 17, 2020, 3:29 p.m. L DB, <luca...@gmail.com> wrote:

I think this frame should be able to fit 28mm or even 32mm tyres (real size) with fenders. The limits here is at the caliper.

I have a  framebuilder friend that could braze centerpull posts for me, but IMHO this frame is not worth the effort being a midrange, fairly heavy , frame with already generous clearances.

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[Tom Palmer]

Hi Dan,
I use the thin lines with the Tektro 559 on 650b conversions. Braking is good, not great. On a 700c bike with pads at top of slot braking is almost great. Working on this issue myself setting up a front loaded touring bike.
Tom Palmer
Twin Lake, MI USA

[satanas]

There seem to be two different things at play here, stiffness at the lever (personal preference to a degree), and braking power; I wonder how much of the improvement noted above is due to pad compound. (I only care about braking power, as long as the levers don't look like bottoming out on the bars.)

Later,
Stephen

[Nick Payne]

As I said somewhere earlier in this thread, the first thing I've always done when installing these brakes is to remove the Tektro pads and replace them with Koolstop or Swissstop, and I have no complaints about the braking.

Nick

[Joseph Bernard]

I said earlier in this thread that they suck and people got mad at me. Update: I'm about to put the old Silver labeled version on a Rivendell Frank Jones singlespeed frame. Wish me luck! 🤞

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