Distinction between Pari Moto and Gravel King?

[Brad]

What is the difference between the

Pacenti designed Pari-Moto

and the

Gravel King tire?

[William Lindsay]

The main difference between the Gravel King and the Pari-Moto is that the Gravel King is offered in 10 models and over 50 sizes and sidewall variants.  The Pari-Moto is it's own model that come in 6 sizes and sidewall variants. 

The Pari Motos in 650Bx38 , 42 and 48 are all lighter than the lightest Gravel Kings in the same size.  The Gravel Kings all claim to have a Panaracer flat resistant casing, while the Pari Motos do not.  The Pari Motos are purported to have about half the tread life of Rene Herse tires, and if the lightest Gravel Kings have heavier casings, then judging by the small weight differences they must also have thin treads. 

I think the Panaracer website lays them all out pretty clearly so you can try to make sense of it all, although that may not help you with the retail vendor from whom you might be buying them.  https://www.panaracer.com/lineup/gravel.html

Bill Lindsay

El Cerrito, CA

[Randall Daniels]

The thickest part of the Pari-Moto tread is around 1.25mm and is just rubber and cord. The GK is almost 3 times that and has a very cut resistant protection belt and sidewall rubber formulation. Here's a pic of the PM, the penny is 1.5mm.

https://drandalls.files.wordpress.com/2016/06/img_0171.jpg

That said, the PM rides very fast and feels very supple, flat resistance is very poor. The GK tires seem to depend on what model you get with respect to suppleness/speed. Some are very good, some average and some poor. 650bx42 GK is very good as is the 38. The 650bx48 was very stiff and not a good tire, this may have changed recently but I am unsure. I would avoid that size unless you have a return option. 

[David Parsons]

The GK is tubeless compatible, the Pari-Moto is, um, not.   Which sucks, because the 38mm Pari-Moto is such a flat magnet that tubelessification is about the only hope for getting more than about 2k miles out of one.

-david parsons

On Tuesday, November 19, 2019 at 4:01:40 PM UTC-8, Brad wrote:

[Brian Rowe]

Hi Brad, if you are curious to try the Pari-Moto, I have a pair in the 650Bx38 size that are unused, never mounted.

Velo-Orange is selling them for $40 each...you can have my pair for $48 shipped to you priority mail.

Just let me know if you want them,

Brian

Washington DC

On Tuesday, November 19, 2019 at 7:01:40 PM UTC-5, Brad wrote:

[Eli Torgeson]

Although the Parimoto is not a tubeless specific tire, it does load up tubeless rather well. The 38s become far less puncture prone as the small stuff is effectively sealed. The ride is heavenly, on par with Compass and with Gran Bois. (Gran Boise, however, is trickier to load tubeless. Tough for the Hetres, nearly impossible for the ecureuil.)

My gripe with the Parimoto 42s is that I always end up with a little hop when mounting these tubeless.

As noted, the tread is pretty thin.

Eli
In Albuquerque

[Nick Payne]

Actually, I've been running Pari-Moto 650Bx38 (the original model from Pacenti without "Panaracer" prominently displayed on the sidewall) as tubeless for a while without any problems. Sealant (Orange Seal) came through the sidewall for the first couple of days, but after that they were fine. I'm running them on MCFK hookless MTB rims with 25mm internal width. So far no flats in a few months of use.

I'm running a Pari-Moto on the front and a GravelKing 650Bx38 on the rear, both on identical MCFK rims, and I found that the GravelKing was slightly easier to mount than the Pari-Moto - both could be mounted with fingers alone provided I ensured that the section of bead already mounted was sitting in the central well, and they both needed about the same pressure (50 psi or so) for the beads to snap into place over the retention hump on the bed of the rim. Once the initial leaky sidewalls on the Pari-Moto had been plugged by the sealant, the pressure drop over time of the supposedly non-tubeless compatible Pari-Moto and tubeless GravelKing are pretty much the same.

I've also found that the Grand Bois Lierre also works fine when setup tubeless. My wife is running a set of them tubeless on a gravel bike I setup for her.

Nick

[Ford Bailey]

I'm almost positive that Panaracer used to offer the Paris Moto in a tubeless version. I may be mistaken, but I recall there being two versions of the tire on their site. They do ride heavenly, like a Compass/ RH tire, but that can be had for a fraction of the price. I paid $18/ tire for wire bead 650b x 38 (27.5x1.5") tires. I've had great luck with both pairs that I ride, including some really gnarly stuff. 

F in Columbia County NY

[Cary Weitzman]

Ford Bailey wrote:
> I've had great luck with both pairs that I ride, including some really
> gnarly stuff.

Ditto.

The PariMoto 38s have been getting the bulk of my miles for the last 3
years, lots of gravel, rutted ATV trails and dry stream beds. I think
I've had one flat this past summer.

I learned the hard way that they'll slice like butter if you hit fresh
glass, so I take extra care when a ride takes me through downtown.
Outside town I don't give them any consideration.

Cary
PTBO.ON.CA

[Brad]

Thanks.  I have two unmounted which have been ready to go on a long trip as spares for a while now, but the long trip hasn't happened.

[Pat Smith]

Does anyone have experience with the larger Pari Moto 650b x 48? 

[Mike Evans]

I've been rocking the 48c Gravel Kings. Nice tires, but a bit sluggish on-road. Was thinking of the Pari-Moto, but not if it wears that fast. Anybody know why they'd make the tread so thin?

[Brad]

To go fast.  Around the time that the Pari-Moto was designed Peter Weigle was doing  experiments shaving Hetre's down to a very thin tread.  There is a tension out there between a long group ride and a long group ride that turns into a race.

[Scott Stulken]

Yeah, the thinner tread reduces hysteresis losses.  There used to be (actually probably still are) some time-trial-specific tires with very thin tread for the same reason.

People's wear rates vary a lot.  My Pari-Motos are up to 4674 miles, but the rear still has faint impressions of the pebble tread pattern.  They're probably at more danger of aging out from UV/ozone exposure than wearing completely through the tread, at this point.  :^)

- Scott

[Eli Torgeson]

Wow, that's a lot of miles on Parimotos. My rear 38mm (set up tubeless) has orange seal weaping through the tread, indicating to me that it is rather thin at this point in its life. I have not had the glass cut issue with pari Motos, but I would believe it. One of my Compass ELs suffered a glass cut that ruined an otherwise good tire. The casing stretched and despite sewing and radial patching, it became disconcertingly out of round.

Eli,
In Albuquerque

[Mike Evans]

Methinks that with a wider tire, the tread thickness would matter less. The larger radius makes the tread flatter and less concave, so its easier to flex. Same reason why an OS frame tube is easier to dent.

[satanas]

Re Scott's comments: Continental and no doubt others make TT specific tyres currently. Back in the day, people sometimes used track tubulars for important road races or TTs, so "thinner is faster" is not a new idea. Circa 1987 IRC made a tyre called a Paperlite, claimed to weigh 155g, and I can verify that they were very fast, but had little or no puncture resistance. This is true if current TT tyres, most of which come with a warning about puncturing more easily.

However, if the casing is reasonably tough a lack of tread thickness doesn't necessarily lead to punctures, depending on where, how, and on what you ride. Murphy's Law usually applies though. :-(

Later,
Stephen

[Randall Daniels]

That seems to be the institutional knowledge that has been gained over time as supple demi- and balloon tires gained more and more experience in the field. Certainly Compass tires are much thinner than the prior models from Grand Bois and the Gravel Kings themselves are thinner than Compass (although there is a hedge with a puncture belt). 

This picture of a cut, new, Snoqualmie Pass shows a much thinner cross section than the other ~42mm tires in the Compass lineup - the BSP is about 1.25x as thick and the Hetre is 1.5x+

WTB showed a similar evolution with their first 650b tire, the Horizon, having a tread thickness of 5mm+, the updated model of slightly different type has tread thickness of 3mm.

The top tire here is a 700cx23mm Continental Grand Prix, tread is much thicker than most demi-balloon tires.

Personally I prefer a little more tread, I like the ride of the Hetre the best compared to the BSP/GK or Pari-Moto.

[Scott Stulken]

It has definitely been a surprise to me, and at <$40 each, I wasn't planning to be sad if they wore out quickly.  But I figure that a wide tire at low pressure will have a larger contact patch than a skinny high-pressure tire, so it ought to take proportionally longer to wear out.  

Big fan of those sectioned tire pictures, Randall!  Thanks for taking the time.

- (Thermionic)Scott

[Harry Travis]

As Nick Payne noted, there was the original PariMoto, and then the PariMoto as licensed by the maker, Panaracer.
I just weighed a new spare of the original 650x38 PM. Just 280g!!

By comparison V-O lists the weight of the Panaracer PM @ 300g and 312g for the 42mm tire. So, similar to the original PM. An early Gravel King which may date from before Panaracer licensed the PariMoto name weighs 320g. Tread looks the same as that on the Originsl PM (but rubberized casing differs.)

Panaracer makes tired for Fairweather. Dunno if the casing is the nylon skin wall of the Pasela and original PM. In 42mm sizes, the weight is 475g for the Cruise model.

I much preferred the original PM I put on the front to replace yet another tire made by Panaracer for Soma.

[Mike Evans]

Been wondering about the casing of the Fairweather tires. A quick Google search confirmed that they are based on Pasela, which seems to include both the tread and the casing:

https://global.bluelug.com/fairweather-for-cruise-tire-cream-skin-11320.html

They do offer nice colors tho.

[Etan Heller]

I had a 26" Fairweather For Cruise tire on a touring bike and I can tell you the casing was definitely not the same as the Pasela. It was much thinner and the whole tire was very light compared to a Pasela. Tread mold was the same, that's about it.

[Ford Bailey]

That's good to know. It sounds nice. There are lots of different Paselas, of course. 

I have both folding bead and wire bead PariMotos. I haven't weighed them, but the ride is fantastic on both.

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[ThermionicScott]

My understanding is that the all-black version was and is 127tpi, while the tan variant is 67 tpi, which explains a little bit of the weight difference.  From one seller:

"The Pari-Moto is available in Black/Black or Black/Tan (Skinwall), 650b x 38mm (38-584 ISO), with a folding bead. The Black/Black version features a 127 TPI casing, while the Black/Tan version features a 67 TPI casing. Weight also varies between the two colors, 280g/300g, respectively."  So when you buy the all-black version, you're still getting something pretty close to the original.

My tan ones (purchased 2015) are from after the transfer to Panaracer, and Boulder Bicycle admits on their website that "they are probably the lower TPI casing verison".  But they still came in under 300g (287g and 288g) and roll so nicely, I'm happy.  :^)

- Scott

[Brad]

Ah, yes, the IRC Paperlite.    I think they lasted two weeks for me at the outside.  But they were a cool two weeks.

[Harry Travis]

I don't think retail sellers are always correctly informed, or that the company web site is up to date.

And, as noted earlier, the same model tire can be changed significantly by the maker. 

Shwalbe is proudly doing that now (as well as proliferating models in the many dozens). 

--

Harry P Travis

12.4.3

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[satanas]

^ The black wall Paris-Moto was definitely said to be lighter than the tan wall version, by Pacenti, on their website. That site is now history, but I'm certain that was the case.

Since black sidewalls are less susceptible to UV and show dirt less too I always wondered why they bothered offering the tan wall version. (Or why anyone sells or buys tyres with non-black treads, show bikes excepted.)

Later,
Stephen

[Cary Weitzman]

satanas wrote:
> ^ The black wall Paris-Moto was definitely said to be lighter than the tan wall version, by Pacenti, on their website. That site is now history, but I'm certain that was the case.

This is an interesting segue to the conversation.

I can confirm that up until last year, the black/black Panaracer-branded
Pari-Moto folding bead tire did weigh in at around 280g.

However, I had a look at my current unridden black/black spares, bought
last year from the same source as the previous pairs, and the packaging
says 300g. And indeed the tires weigh in at just under that.

So somewhere in the last few years there was either a running change,
OR, like other Panaracer tires (Paselas and Gravelkings come to mind)
there are just a boatload of slightly different versions that look
pretty much the same and you never know what you'll get until you hold
it in your hands.

Great tire regardless.

Cary
PTBO.ON.CA

[Harry Travis]

Etan Heller: Cannot be thinner than for the traditional tan sidewall Pasela many of us have known for 20 or more years. For good reason the near-translucent side was called a 'skin-wall'.

If your experience is different, it may be because Pasela became a brand for Panaracer, as Randonneur did for Vitoria and Marathon for Schwalbe, a label to be stuck on or molded in a new tire or an old tire put in a new category like gravel, city, touring, trekking, etc).

[Etan Heller]

Not sure I follow what you're saying.

On Thu, Nov 28, 2019, 12:02 PM Harry Travis <travis...@gmail.com> wrote:

Etan Heller: Cannot be thinner than for the traditional tan sidewall Pasela many of us have known for 20 or more years. For good reason the near-translucent side was called a 'skin-wall'.

If your experience is different, it may be because Pasela became a brand for Panaracer, as Randonneur did for Vitoria and Marathon for Schwalbe, a label to be stuck on or molded in a new tire or an old tire put in a new category like gravel, city, touring, trekking, etc).

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