Crust Lightning Bolt (Canti) handling

[Harald Kliems]

Hi 650Bers:

So earlier this year I bought an XL Canti Lightning Bolt and have ridden it for about 1000 miles (build notes here: https://ride-or-pie.blogspot.com/2021/06/crust-canti-lightning-bolt-build-notes.html). Overall I quite like the big but I'm curious to hear from others about their experience.

I had to do quite a bit of troubleshooting to get to a point where the handling of the bike more or less works for me. I'll try to describe my experience. For a good while the front just seemed to ride too light. Not in the sense of actual shimmy or speed wobble, but any sudden steering input (e.g. after taking off a hand from the bars and then putting it back) seemed to result in a short oscillation of the front end. Additionally, the bike felt really unstable when descending at speed in moderate crosswinds. Not that it would wobble or greatly move around, but it just didn't feel stable. After pursuing various theories of what the issue may be, I came to realize that possibly my dynohub front wheel had minimally loose bearings; switching to a different front wheel made the crosswind descending much, much better. At the same time, the exaggerated reaction to steering input is still there to some extent. For context, I've been riding a low-trail bike with a regular headset for years (a Gunnar Roadie 650B conversion), as well as a SOMA Grand Randonneur with a roller bearing headset. Both of them feel/felt different with regard to the handling. The Crust has a mid-range Tange headset, as roller bearing headsets are hard to come by and the Gunnar worked fine for me with a regular headset.

I'm curious to hear how other LB owners have experienced the handling of the bike, especially if they can compare it other low-trail rando bikes.

 Harald in Madison (WI)

[Kieran J]

I have two low-trail 700c bikes and they both handle as you describe. Light sensitive steering, pronounced when going downhill and highly affected by load weight and location on the bike. I find that low-trail bikes don't rail descents the way higher-trail ones do and they get thrown off their line by cross-winds and bumpy/uneven surfaces. Took me a while to adjust but I'm pretty used to it now, especially the rando bike, which has other qualities that help me ignore the slight twitchiness. 

I recently saw on social media a Lightning Bolt build with just a large saddle bag and I thought, "that bike is gonna handle like crap."

Are you running comparably-sized tires across all your bikes?

KJ

[Harald Kliems]

Hm, interesting. I find that my Roadie is not at all sensitive to cross-winds or bumpy roads. The Grand Randonneur maybe a bit more so. I have to look back at the amount of trail for the Roadie (it was converted with a Rawland Stag fork); looks like the SOMA and LB have pretty similar trail numbers.

Tires are comparable (38s on the Roadie, 42s on the SOMA and Lightning Bolt; both RH Extralight)

 Harald.

[Cary Weitzman]

Kieran J wrote on 12/3/21 3:06 PM:

> I recently saw on social media a Lightning Bolt build with just a
> large saddle bag and I thought, "that bike is gonna handle like crap."

Nope, handles just fine.

The only bag I have on my Med. L.B. is a Porcelain Rocket Charlene, so
just 6L (of which 1 is usually used, but it's been full). I was
originally going to get a front rack and bag but decided to try the bike
sans just to see, and, having no handling issues put off the front
rack/bag/decaluer purchase indefinitely. Aesthetically I still want
them, but I don't NEED the extra weight up front.

Bike does handle a bit light, but nothing out of the ordinary. I switch
between it and my low-high trail (classic UJB sport touring geo) True
North steel 531C rando and my plastic high trail gravel without an
issue. The only time the bike feels sketchy is descending with gusty
strong sidewinds and I discovered that descending on the hoods rather
than the drops fixes that.

Also riding no hands in strong side gusts it can get hard to hold a
line, but it doesn't affect my secondary stability.

Cartridge bearing headset (FSA Duron) slightly over-tightened to provide
a bit of damping.

Cary
PTBO.ON.CA

[Joe Bernard]

I don't know why this one would be different from your other low-trail bikes but you're describing what I experienced on my LB Disc. I did not like it and sold the bike, convinced I'm just not a low-trail guy. 

Joe Bernard

On Friday, December 3, 2021 at 11:32:39 AM UTC-8 kli...@gmail.com wrote:

[JohnS]

I have a LB-Canti with a FSA headset, lower needle bearing and upper is a cage bearing. I had got it from Rivendell almost 2yrs ago and I see they no longer have them. I think it helps and I have it on the snug side. Originally it was on the loose side and it was very unstable. At this point I'm use to the bike, taking turns at speed is different from my Surly, I tend to be more on the drops on the LB-Canti. I also have a front rack and bag.

JohnS

[David Cummings]

Not the same bike, but similar geometry (and actually was my alternate choice) to my Elephant NFE. It came with a sealed bearing IRD Technoglide, but it just felt like noodles on gravel descents. I replaced it with an IRD Double Roller Drive HS and am quite happy now. I’ve only had one serious gravel ride before my mountain season ended, but the wobble is gone. 

I never really had true “speed wobble” like a number of my other road bikes (my frames are all 60+cm), but I could induce similar oscillations by riding no hands and then hitting the stem (done carefully). The symptoms were the same and a roller bearing headset similarly solved it, like my other favorite bike.

Descending gravel just gave the NFE a very unpredictable ride. I never got bucked off, but hitting small, unseen baby heads always kept my heart rate up when the front end would briefly wobble. It was worse without a load too. 

I found my IRD at Modern Bike. 

David in MT

[Ken Freeman]

Harald,

I’m not a SB owner, but I’m always interested in troubleshooting handling. Personally I seem to be choosing the pie too often!  I have experimented with tires, headset and geometry.  If you don’t mind, I’d like to observe with interested and popcorn!  One point is that I’ve always been tempted to build a set of wheels with Sanshin Gyromasters, which have extremely free-running cartridge bearings, but a small amount of play, more than i expect from a properly adjusted cup/cone hub set.  I learned to set up such hubs decades ago, so I am familiar with the difference.  But now I would not do so, unless I can find cartridge ball bearings without play.  I also have an intuition that a little more rake in the fork of your 650b might make the steering feel a little more weighty, countering your “too light” feeling.  But I realize it’s not convenient to do that evaluation, unless you find a few forks to swap into and out of your “mule.”  My mule is my 1984 Trek 610.

Ken Freeman, Ann Arbor, MI USA

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[recarcar]

I've also had a few low trail bikes including a couple on the higher end of low trail, a Crust Nor'Easter, and used to have a L'avecaise. I also occasionally ride my parter's Velo Routier which is a VERY low trail design. They were all designed to carry a front load and they all do that really well. Without a front load I also experienced all the handling characteristics you mentioned. I was surprised by how much just the weight of a front rack and a bag did to chill the steering out.  I like to ride with a front load and low trail is great for that. All these bikes handle wonderfully with a front load but without one, I don't think I would want a low trail bike, especially not for off-roading. With a front load, I don't hesitate at all to take the Crust or Velo Routier off-roading or down some chunkyish descents. 

carlos 

Brooklyn

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[Kieran J]

Interesting. Not what I would expect!

KJ

On Friday, December 3, 2021 at 1:25:43 PM UTC-8 Cary Weitzman wrote:

Nope, handles just fine.

[Harald Kliems]

On Saturday, December 4, 2021 at 6:46:24 PM UTC-6 recarcar wrote:

I've also had a few low trail bikes including a couple on the higher end of low trail, a Crust Nor'Easter, and used to have a L'avecaise. I also occasionally ride my parter's Velo Routier which is a VERY low trail design. They were all designed to carry a front load and they all do that really well. Without a front load I also experienced all the handling characteristics you mentioned. I was surprised by how much just the weight of a front rack and a bag did to chill the steering out.  I like to ride with a front load and low trail is great for that. All these bikes handle wonderfully with a front load but without one, I don't think I would want a low trail bike, especially not for off-roading. With a front load, I don't hesitate at all to take the Crust or Velo Routier off-roading or down some chunkyish descents.

For what it's worth, the front load never seemed to make a big difference for me on any of my low-trail bikes. I almost always carry a front bag, but it will often be quite empty (and it's a lightweight bag); and then there are times when I pick up a six pack on a ride and put that in the bag -- doesn't feel all that much different. That said, I'll do some more deliberate experimenting with front load on the Lightning Bolt and see if I can notice a difference.

 Harald.

[recarcar]

Hey Harald,

Are you carrying that weight on a rack or is it reckless? If it's rackless, then much of the weight is being supported by the bars. I think part of what chills the handling out a bit is having weight supported by the fork, even if it's just a kilo or two. Obviously, this is just conjecture but I noticed when I went rackless with these bikes, the handling got too twitchy and I immediately put the rack back on.

carlos

[Harald Kliems]

On Sunday, December 5, 2021 at 6:20:20 PM UTC-6 recarcar wrote:

Are you carrying that weight on a rack or is it reckless? If it's rackless, then much of the weight is being supported by the bars. I think part of what chills the handling out a bit is having weight supported by the fork, even if it's just a kilo or two. Obviously, this is just conjecture but I noticed when I went rackless with these bikes, the handling got too twitchy and I immediately put the rack back on.

The bike has a proper front rack (just like my other low-trail bikes). So that can't be it.

 Harald.

[randal...@gmail.com]

Curious if you ever rode the bike without fenders? I've had two low-trail bikes both in the mid-30s, 650bx48 - and one (with a lighter/more supple fork and tubing) is more sensitive to fender wobble as well as steering feel with a loose fender or if the fender harmonics are just right where there's a short feedback loop. 

And sorry if this was addressed already, but have you done the more normal checks? Frame/fork/dropout alignment? Including fork dropout depth, rear wheel in plane, cable tension effect on steering? When I first built up my Fog Cutter the rear brake cable was stiff enough and routed poorly that riding with two hands I was always under tension against the cable pushing the handlebars, so removing one hand made the bike feel weird and it was also almost impossible to ride no-handed without extremely exaggerated body english. Fixing this resolved the issue and the bike mostly rides like "normal" low-trail.

Randy Daniels Atlanta, Georgia

[rthrst...@gmail.com]

Harald, the above replies all make sense: alignment, headset, loading, low-trail bikes more sensitive to cross-winds, etc....but I think there's one more thing to consider, which hasn't come up yet. You're riding an XL Canti LB...I owned one last year, and found it a tiny bit too flexible for me (6'6"/200), and my riding style. Tubes get a *lot* flexier with greater length, and that Crust has a very long top tube -- great for fit for tall people, but I think it's just too flexible at that length. What works better for me are .9/.6/.9 bikes, with stiffish seat- and chainstays. What you could be experiencing is the bike flexing and over-correcting on a downhill...not sure how else to put it. Maybe a form of the speed-wobble noted by David in his NFE.? You mention that you don't experience this with your SOMA, which has oversized tubing in the 65cm, if I'm not mistaken?

So I think David's on the right track here...the speed wobble is just going to be much more pronounced in such a long, flexy bike.

Art

[JohnS]

FWIW, Soma Fab Shop has IRD headsets with needle bearing available.

https://www.somafabshop.com/shop/category/components-headsets-979

JohnS

[Harald Kliems]

Randy, that's an interesting theory. While I'd say that my fenders installation on the LB is pretty decent (three-point attachment in the front), they are probably not 100% rigid. And my Gunnar doesn't have fenders. I have to investigate this more.

 Harald.

[Harald Kliems]

On Tuesday, December 7, 2021 at 7:47:45 PM UTC-6 JohnS wrote:

FWIW, Soma Fab Shop has IRD headsets with needle bearing available.

https://www.somafabshop.com/shop/category/components-headsets-979

I don't think they're actually available. You can't add them to your cart.

 Harald.

[mackenzy...@gmail.com]

I feel like my crust romanceur rides best with wide drops with a short stem or long stem with swept back bars. I always thought a traditional fit felt wobbly for my riding style. But a more "riv" style setup feels incredible. IMO. 

[Tim O. (Portland O.)]

I have a needle bearing HS on my XL cantibolt and I love the handling. I can really take fast corners well on it.  Doesn't ride no hands as easy as my Riv, but it's still find. I did have some shimmy when I loaded it up for camping with a half frame bag, two panniers and a handlebar bag. Need to do some troubleshooting to see if I can eliminate it with a different packing strategy. 

Cheers,

Tim (he/they)

Portland, OR

[Harald Kliems]

Thanks, Tim. I'll test Randy's fender theory first and then maybe start hunting for a needle bearing HS.

 Harald.