Brevet/Event: Bike Weight

[Brian Campbell]

I was curious if folks who are riding events regularly/seriously, weigh their bikes? I understand that there is often a compromise between function and light weight but was wondering how folks on this list approached that problem? In addition, do you weigh your bike as ridden (saddle, pedals, bags etc) or do you not consider those items in the weight of the bike? 

[Benz Ouyang]

I wouldn't exactly call myself a serious randonneur. However, I do occasionally weigh my bikes out of curiosity. When I do, I weigh it with all of the usual trimmings – pedals, pump, tube kit, etc – that makes it ready-to-ride; I do leave out the variables that are more associated with a particular ride – clothes and food/water.

I don't understand why anyone will want to weigh a "naked" bike, unless one rides the bike that way. One can argue that a "naked" bike is the basic representation of package and the other items are constant, but I don't agree simply because each bike has its own fittings that weigh very differently. For example, my Seven "race" bike's standard ready-to-ride equipment only has 1 spare tube, 1 tire lever, a pouch, 1 Lezyne mini pump and no lights because these are adequate for the rides I take the Seven on. My Boulder AR, on the other hand, will have 2 spare fat 650B tubes, 1 spare skinny 700C tube (I encounter too many stranded riders who can't really use a fat 650B tube), a Rivendell patch kit (with an extra Park tire patch), a Lezyne RAP20 (has chain tool), a Topeak full-sized pump, nitrile gloves and baby wipes, a Brooks saddle cover, lights and of course the bag to hold them all. To make the discussion even more convoluted, my AR always run a dynamo hub + Edelux, but it is very unlikely my Seven will ever do so.

Regardless, my bikes that are outfitted for randonneuring tend to weigh at least 27 lb (usually close to 30 lb) ready-to-ride. Yes, that means naked, they're almost light (definition of "light": around 20 lb). LOL

[Eric Keller]

I never weigh my bikes, what does it matter? I try to keep the amount
of stuff I take on a long ride down to a minimum. Having said that, I
once was forced to move my roommate's bike on a 1200k, and I was
shocked at how much it weighed. It was a Bianchi Volpe, which is
often mentioned as a suitable bike for randonneuring. I beg to
differ. It's like a Long Haul Trucker, built to carry everything. A
randonnee should have more in common with a racing bike in my opinion,
except racing bikes rarely feature fenders and lights.

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[Nick Payne]

Seems pretty irrelevant to me. For a non-competitive event, even one
ridden fairly fast, what do a few kilos more or less matter? And even
for competition (in addition to touring and randonneuring, I've been
road racing in a fairly serious way for almost 40 years), I've never
bothered to weigh any of my bikes. The only bike I've ever weighed was
our touring tandem when we arrived home from a month-long tour - I was
curious to know how much weight we had been pushing up the mountain
passes. It turned out that the tandem as loaded for cycle camping for a
month weighed almost exactly 140lbs...

Nick

[Brian Rowe]

I weighed my bike and gear several times before the 2015 brevet season, because a) I was curious and b) I realized that I was carrying too much stuff with me on brevets, so I wanted to know how much weight I reduced and whether that seemed to make a difference.

 

I saved a couple of pounds by removing a rack and leaving some gear behind (spare tire, bulky rain jacket) that I decided wasn't worth it to carry. Maybe the bike feels a bit faster in the earlier hours of a long ride, but the most noticeable difference on brevets was that I have more spare room in my carradice. That is actually really nice, I no longer spend extra time futzing around trying to get everything to fit. So, definitely worth the trouble.

 

One compromise between function and weight where I would always lean toward function is the wheels: I only use wheels made with traditional 32 spoke rims and hubs. Sure you can get much lighter modern wheelsets but I would be too concerned about durability when I'm so far from home. 

[Alex Wetmore]

I also weigh the bikes ready to ride.  I don't include handlebar bag weight, but do include saddle, pedals, water bottle cages, pump, lights, etc.  

I was a weight weenie when building up one of my bikes.  My bikes always end up being pretty close to 30lbs (most of them also have IGHs) and I wanted to see what it would take to beat that.  I compared every component weight with the alternatives and if there was an easy alternative that still made sense then I used it.  I got the ready to ride bike weight under 24lbs (for a rando-style bike with fenders, lighting, handlebar bag rack) mostly by saving 20-40 grams per component on almost every component instead of using one or two items that saved a lot of weight.  There is nothing on that bike which is "crazy light" and the only carbon fiber is in the brake levers.  Some of the weight savings were surprising to me, a late 90s 8sp Dura/Ace front derailleur was about 20 grams lighter than other Shimano alternatives that I weighed, and a homemade steel stem with integrated spacers and cable hanger (this is a threadless bike) saved me about 50 grams compared to a Nitto aluminum stem with loose aluminum spacers and a clamp on cable hanger.  Other thing were obvious, like using lighter cassettes or spokes+rims on the wheels.

I like having one really light bike and it feels like my fastest bike, but it is also one of the bikes that I ride the least.  So when it comes down to it weight isn't that big of a deal for my riding.  The two bikes that I ride the most weigh around 31lbs each.  I've lost 25lbs in the last 5 months and that clearly has a much bigger impact on my climbing performance than a 7lb lighter bike does (it is also a lot cheaper).  Of course I don't have another 25lbs that I could lose, and wouldn't even want to lose another 7...

I did a lot of riding (for me these days at least) yesterday on my light bike and was climbing hills out of the saddle at high RPM that I couldn't do a few months ago.  I give most of the credit to losing weight, but the fast and light bike is also fun to ride and encourages me to push it.

alex

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From: 65...@googlegroups.com <65...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Benz Ouyang <benzo...@gmail.com>
Sent: Sunday, August 9, 2015 4:47 PM
To: 650b
Subject: [650B] Re: Brevet/Event: Bike Weight

 

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[Alex Wetmore]

From: 65...@googlegroups.com <65...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Brian Rowe <brian...@gmail.com>

> One compromise between function and weight where I would always lean toward function is the 

> wheels: I only use wheels made with traditional 32 spoke rims and hubs. Sure you can get much 

> lighter modern wheelsets but I would be too concerned about durability when I'm so far from home. 

You can still save weight here with careful selection of components.  Sapim CX Ray spokes save about 100 grams on the wheelset over standard 2.0/1.8/2.0 butted spokes and seem to be just as durable.  They do cost about 3x as much per spoke, but it's really not that terrible at the end of the day.

I think using A23 rims vs Synergy rims also saves about 100 grams in total.

An 11-32 cassette with cogs mounted on a spider is also about 100 grams lighter than one without the aluminum spider.

EL Babyshoe Pass tires are about 100 grams lighter per pair than the original Hetre.  

That is 400 grams total, which is pretty close to 1lb.  Both wheelsets are "traditional".

alex

[Brian Rowe]

Good points, you reminded me of one more: the Schwalbe extra light inner tubes were 55 grams lighter than the budget Kenda tubes I was previously using. That brings us up to over a pound of weight savings on the "traditional" wheelset.

[satanas]

Curiosity seems to be the only reason to weigh bikes to me. If one uses the lightest suitable parts the bike will weigh what it needs to weigh...

Later,
Stephen (whose next bike is going to be lighter)

[Fred Blasdel]

On Sun, Aug 9, 2015 at 2:41 PM, Brian Campbell <bdcamp...@gmail.com> wrote:

I was curious if folks who are riding events regularly/seriously, weigh their bikes? I understand that there is often a compromise between function and light weight but was wondering how folks on this list approached that problem? In addition, do you weigh your bike as ridden (saddle, pedals, bags etc) or do you not consider those items in the weight of the bike? 

As a serious randonneur, having a few extra pounds on your bike is rarely relevant, especially compared to aerodynamics

But what's making your bike heavy is usually of great importance, the "function" itself is often compromising your performance! The extra couple pounds of steel in a LHT frame aren't the problem it's the tractor-like ride quality you get with it, the same way heavy tires ride like bricks.

It's very rare to actually need to carry much the whole way on a brevet, they're designed around controls with services. You just want someplace accessible to put basics and snacks that isn't a jersey pocket. Since I'm a lightweight I don't get much advantage out of having super fat tires, organized events are rarely rough enough to beat me up.

So if it isn't going to rain I'll ride a traditional racing bike with a small frame bag and road tubeless tires, even on a 600k.

My 650b randonneur bike gets a lot more use in real life than on the clock, the fenders, fat tires, and front bag are a lot more useful for commuting, camping, and just riding with friends.

[Stephen Poole]

On 11 Aug 2015 03:27, "Fred Blasdel" <blas...@gmail.com> wrote:

> As a serious randonneur, having a few extra pounds on your bike is rarely relevant, especially compared to aerodynamics

True, aero is important, but extra weight can be felt and is a burden on long climbs; both matter.

> But what's making your bike heavy is usually of great importance, the "function" itself is often compromising your performance! The extra couple pounds of steel in a LHT frame aren't the problem it's the tractor-like ride quality you get with it, the same way heavy tires ride like bricks.

Totally agree,

> It's very rare to actually need to carry much the whole way on a brevet, they're designed around controls with services.

It's not like that on many UK rides; one must carry stuff.

>You just want someplace accessible to put basics and snacks that isn't a jersey pocket. Since I'm a lightweight I don't get much advantage out of having super fat tires, organized events are rarely rough enough to beat me up.
>
> So if it isn't going to rain I'll ride a traditional racing bike with a small frame bag and road tubeless tires, even on a 600k.

If one is riding a long event and/or in the UK or Europe (ie PBP), then IMHO it's impossible to be confident that it won't rain at some point. It's better to be prepared for bad weather than to DNF.

>
> My 650b randonneur bike gets a lot more use in real life than on the clock, the fenders, fat tires, and front bag are a lot more useful for commuting, camping, and just riding with friends.
>

Agree here too. I'd be reluctant to tour on narrow tyres again after Hetres, but if maximum speed is desired I'm not wholly convinced a narrower, more aero 700c wheel and tyre won't be faster overall.

Later,
Stephen

[Andrew Fatseas]

I agree, I'm also a lightweight and I know that I'm considerably faster on a 700c CF racing bike than on my steel Grand Bois rando with 650b x 42.

But the Grand Bois is my first choice for commuting and touring.

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[Olle]

HI

As a preparation before PBP I have change tires and tubes, and also I take another wheelset. So now my MAP are little lighter, from approx 11.6 to 11.1 kilo. 

I change the tube from Schwalbe SC12 to SV14A, tires from Compass BS pass EL to Pari-Moto, and I took the second with wheelset with Pacenti PL rims, instead of A23 rims

But I put on a RH triple crankset instead of double, and XT rear cassette 11-32.

The weigth is complete bike with fenders, lightning, pump, pedals, ready to run without handlebar bag. But I always bring to much gears with me, some spare parts,tools, food, extra clothing, etc.

I Sweden we are often using petrol station as controls, and they have always some kind of food. But on longer Brevets you have fix by you self if you want to sleep in a ditch or in a bed.

The most Rando people in Sweden using CF bikes with narrow tires, and without fenders. So the last 10 years people always have some comments on my bikes, steel frames, fenders, and handlebar bag.

Olle

[Joe Wein]

Focusing on saving grams on the bike is just what the marketing guys want you to do.

For most cyclists it makes more sense to save weight on the engine than the bike. Why worry about saving 100 g here and 20 g there when you are carrying 5-10 kg of excess weight around your hips? Usually the engine can be lightened far more (and more cheaply) than the bike can.

I also don't worry about bike weight per se, only about whether some options are needed or not for a particular ride: Do I want to take extra layers for colder weather? Will I need my rain gear? Am I going to use a rinko bag for a train ride? 

[Steven Frederick]

Eh, at the pace and distances I ride aerodynamics are no more
important than a few pounds. I am most definitely not a serious
randonneur though. I am not really a "serious," rider of any sort--I
ride for fun and seldom exceed 14mph average or 60 miles distance. I
guess I'm a serious recreational rider, though that sounds a bit
contradictory.

I usually weigh my bikes when I build them, mainly out of curiosity,
then forget about it...

Steve

[Christian]

I am not overly concerned with weight--whatever that might mean. And I don't know what my bikes weigh. However, I try and save where I can and where it counts--like wheels. So, on my new Elephant NFE my wheels are lighter than what I had on my Terraferma. The WTB KOM rims are 100g lighter than the Synergy's (I just looked this all up), the tubeless Babyshoe Pass ELs are for sure lighter than the tubed Hetres I was riding.  I notice the difference. I've not done any brevets on the Elephant but will this fall; I did the SR series twice on my Terraferma.  I am not fast under any circumstances on any bike, but I can at least try and make my bike easier to pedal. 

Here are some pics of the new Elephant: https://www.flickr.com/photos/cwmcmillen/sets/72157656605491545

Best wishes 

Christian

On Sunday, August 9, 2015 at 5:41:27 PM UTC-4, Brian Campbell wrote:

[Michael Arciero]

On Monday, August 10, 2015 at 9:27:05 PM UTC-4, Fred Blasdel wrote:

It's very rare to actually need to carry much the whole way on a brevet, they're designed around controls with services. You just want someplace accessible to put basics and snacks that isn't a jersey pocket.

 

This is very true. The distance between controls at NER events is rarely more than 60 miles. I bring my own food mostly so as not to be at the mercy of the control, to minimize waste, and because I find the constant purchasing/dealing with money and change to be annoying. That said, it;s nice to buy a yummy treat, or something hot, once in a while.  

[Jim Bronson]

I started carrying a lot more weight when I decided to carry more food with me and spend less (or none) money at controls.  It's an acceptable tradeoff for me because I just got sick of spending so much money on long brevets.  Nowadays I might leave on say a 400K with 20 servings of my drink powder separated in individual baggies, 12 Payday bars and 4 PB&J sandwiches.  I also carry 3 water bottles at least 75% of the time as I live in Texas.

I don't know what it all weighs but I wouldn't be surprised at 35-40 lbs when I start.  

The good news is, my load gets lighter as the ride goes along.

I read the whole thread and some mentioned aerodynamics and some said it wasn't a big deal for them.  Well I can say with absolute certainty that when you're 6'7" aerodynamics are a Big Deal and I spend an appreciable portion of most brevets riding in the drops.  In a headwind I spend 100% of the time in the drops.

But anyway, YMMV.

-Jim

On Sun, Aug 9, 2015 at 4:41 PM, Brian Campbell <bdcamp...@gmail.com> wrote:

I was curious if folks who are riding events regularly/seriously, weigh their bikes? I understand that there is often a compromise between function and light weight but was wondering how folks on this list approached that problem? In addition, do you weigh your bike as ridden (saddle, pedals, bags etc) or do you not consider those items in the weight of the bike? 

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Keep the metal side up and the rubber side down!

[Brian Campbell]

Thanks for the interesting responses.  I have been exploring this from the perspective of reducing unnecessary weight on my bike(s), as I get ready for my first 200k. It is interesting (to me anyway) how the series of small changes add up. Granted, nothing close to losing the extra weight around your middle but it does give the bike a more lively feel and thus, a bit more enjoyable.

[Eric Keller]

when I lose the first 10 pounds of the year, I feel like a rocket on
the bike. But usually that's because I have a tailwind. I have to
say that it makes sense to be weight conscious, but a heavy bike rides
a lot faster than a broken bike. Taking stuff along with you that you
don't need is a bad idea. I could be convinced that tires matter, but
flats affect me a lot emotionally, and I will pay a performance price
for avoiding them.

[Stephen Poole]

On 12 Aug 2015 18:16, "Eric Keller" wrote:
>Taking stuff along with you that you don't need is a bad idea.  I could be convinced that tires matter, but flats affect me a lot emotionally, and I will pay a performance price for avoiding them.

No tyre is totally immune to flats, and a significant increase in flat resistance only costs a few grams. Most of the better 700c racing tyres are pretty flat resistant unless seriously abused, and I've yet to puncture a Hetre, probably because the lower pressures make it easier for the tyre to deform around objects. Things like Marathon Plus tyres are suitable only for war zones and the certifiably paranoid!

Later,
Stephen

[Steve Palincsar]

Let us know how it went after you do your 200K.

[Eric Keller]

On Wed, Aug 12, 2015 at 2:27 PM, Steve Palincsar <pali...@his.com> wrote:

> Let us know how it went after you do your 200K.

not to diminish the effort required to finish a 200k, but you can get
away with almost anything on a 200k ridden during the summer. Fat
bike, 3 speed commuter, Long Haul Trucker, you name it. The rides
where the weather changes from 19F to 65F are the ones I have trouble
packing for.

[Brian Rowe]

Yes the winter brevets do make it necessary to carry more clothing but come on, a 200K in the summer is no picnic!  

 

OP, good luck with your first 200K, I'm also interested in hearing about how it goes.

[Steve Palincsar]

I never meant to suggest there was an issue using this bike on a 200K.
The OP described a number of changes made to make the bike feel lighter
and more lively; I'm just curious to know whether the feeling of
lightness and liveliness was still noticeable during a 200K brevet. I
will say, however, that I would never suggest that a 200K is a trivial
distance to ride.

[Chris Cullum]

What you are sitting on for 200k may be more important than what you are carrying.

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[Jim Bronson]

Caveat:  if you live in the North.

Down here in Texas a daytime 200K is pretty tough in the summertime.

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[Nick Payne]

On 13/08/2015 09:27, Jim Bronson wrote:

Caveat:  if you live in the North.

Down here in Texas a daytime 200K is pretty tough in the summertime.

Here's a graph from my bike computer for a summer brevet event we rode a few years ago. Elevation profile above, temperature profile below. The max temperature recorded while climbing the third mountain was 46C (114F). Even at the top of the biggest climb the temperature was unpleasantly hot, and descending back down to the valley felt like being in a oven with the temperature control gradually being increased. I was glad we only rode the 140km event that day. Quite a number of riders who tackled the 200km event wound up on drips in the medical tent due to hyperthermia and dehydration.

[Brian Campbell]

Very True! I am using a Brooks B-17 Select. Hence my need for weight savings in other areas......;-)