Wide Handlebars and Low Trail Geometry?

[Irving Pham]

I'm in the process of commuter-izing my low trail 650b bike and considering a switch from drop bars to a flat bar. I'm switching from Nitto Noodles which are 44cm wide to possibly Velo Orange Postino's at 57cm wide or maybe something even wider.

Anyone have any experience with using a wider bar with low trail geometry and a light load up front? Anyone with strong enough opinions to caution me against doing this, or am I just worrying too much about it?

[Ryan Watson]

Handlebar width should be chosen based on the rider's geometry not the bike's! 

Ride what feels best to you. 

Personally I ride 46-48cm drops on all my bikes, regardless of trail. Anything narrower hurts my shoulders. 
I've never ridden anything as wide as a 57, but I can't imagine that I'd like it, and flat bars make my wrists hurt just looking at them ;-)

Ryan

On 2015/08/20, at 13:41, Irving Pham <irvin...@gmail.com> wrote:

I'm in the process of commuter-izing my low trail 650b bike and considering a switch from drop bars to a flat bar. I'm switching from Nitto Noodles which are 44cm wide to possibly Velo Orange Postino's at 57cm wide or maybe something even wider.

Anyone have any experience with using a wider bar with low trail geometry and a light load up front? Anyone with strong enough opinions to caution me against doing this, or am I just worrying too much about it?

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[Alistair Spence]

I ran steel Albatross bars on a bike with trail in the low 30's. Porteur front rack, moderate to heavy loads. I didn't care for it. Too much leverage from those wider bars made the steering "fussy", overly sensitive, for my tastes anyway (I do like the Albatross bars in terms of shape and comfort though).

I got used to it, to some extent, but always noticed that I preferred my other low trail bikes that had narrower bars.

Alistair Spence,

Seattle, WA.

On Thu, Aug 20, 2015 at 12:41 PM, Irving Pham <irvin...@gmail.com> wrote:

I'm in the process of commuter-izing my low trail 650b bike and considering a switch from drop bars to a flat bar. I'm switching from Nitto Noodles which are 44cm wide to possibly Velo Orange Postino's at 57cm wide or maybe something even wider.

Anyone have any experience with using a wider bar with low trail geometry and a light load up front? Anyone with strong enough opinions to caution me against doing this, or am I just worrying too much about it?

--

[lincoln]

I am considering changing from shallow/short reach drop bar to an Albastache bar to have a bike that does not bend my neck.  I also was wondering what effect that would have on the handling.  I was concerned with taking weight off the front, had not even realized the width of the stache bars.  I appreciate Alistair's experience. Has anybody else done a change in that area?

[Brad]

When I switched over to a low trail fork I had 48 cm wide drop bars.  What I realized was that I didn't need that width and I am now riding 42's which fit over my ribs almost exactly.  Here is why I think there is a difference.
High trail setups have large flop numbers.  The flop requires you to lift up the front end of the bike when you counter steer to stay upright.  I have observed high trail bikes at low speeds (both high end and low end with straight forks)  going all wiggly down the road.   That counter acting the wiggle requires either strength or leverage.  
Less wiggle, less leverage required.
My suspicion is that this may explain why French urban upright bikes had narrower handlebars than British or Dutch urban bikes that had shallower head angles and more -trail- flop- wiggle.

[mitch....@gmail.com]

On Thursday, August 20, 2015 at 5:40:31 PM UTC-6, Brad wrote:

High trail setups have large flop numbers.  The flop requires you to lift up the front end of the bike when you counter steer to stay upright.  I have observed high trail bikes at low speeds (both high end and low end with straight forks) going all wiggly down the road...

What you observed is riders not keeping their upper bodies quiet. Mid-trail and some high-trail bikes' steering react more to body weight shifts. To ride straight, mid-trail riders have to keep their movements more still or make them more deliberate for initiating turns. 

 

...That counter acting the wiggle requires either strength or leverage.  
Less wiggle, less leverage required...

No strength or leverage on the bar required. Mid- and high-trail bikes are easy to ride and steer no-handed. That means with no strength or leverage applied to the bar at all. 

My mid-trail bikes are as easy to ride with narrow 38cm bars as are my low-trail bikes. I cannot recall any sensation of shoulder or arm effort in steering a mid-trail bike. You can feel the difference in flop but that is apparent through the extra reactivity to body weight shifts, which does require more attention to ride straight, mainly at low speeds. 

Mid- and high-trail sport bikes were sold for decades with narrow 38cm drop bars and nobody built massive arm muscles. Look at todays' pros riding  mid-trail/high flop bikes--you cannot find three muscles fibres together in those skinny arms ;-) 

--Mitch

[Mark Guglielmana]

Instead of just theory, I've got your bike right here.

Frame is a 2010 Velo Orange Randonneur, low trail, designed for 700c. Bars are 57cm wide, C-C (I just went out to the garage to double check). I've had them for some time, can't remember what I bought, but they're VO branded, and look like the Tourist model. Wheels are 650b, I wanted a gravel grinder, so this gave me extra clearance on the fenders (VO Zepellins).

More about the bike and the build

How does it ride? Last weekend, 65 mile North Trask route from Hillsboro, OR to Tillamook, 50% on logging roads, 50% paved, started dry, ended in the rain. The wider bars gave me much better control than dropped bars: for contrast, I rode my drop bar rando bike part way the weekend before on a recon ride. Here's the ride story

This week I'm using it as my commute bike, haven't taken the knobbies off yet, probably put on a set of 38-42 wide roadies. I ride 3.5 miles to the train station, get on, get off near work, ride 1.5 miles more to work, then bike all the way home (12 miles) in the evening. I like the more upright position for commuting. It's easier to look around, and I have a total of 5 stop lights, so aerodynamics aren't an issue. I'm sometimes passed by the Racer Ricks, but I usually catch them waiting at the red lights.

Yeah, it works just fine for me. If you're looking for a more upright position, this is pretty comfortable. I carry my work clothes and a towel in my handlebar bag, which is easy to remove from the bike and take inside the office.

I'd say it could be a really good option for you.

[Steve Palincsar]

Tell me again, what trail values do you consider to be "mid-trail"?

[Steven Frederick]

I run old style nitto 'stach bars on my Kogswell P/R commuter (40mm
trail fork) and find it to handle fine. (with a moderate load front
AND rear.)

Steve

[Bill M.]

I just put On-One Mary's back onto my rSogn, which is mostly used as a grocery getter / errand runner / commuter .  Works fine.  Methinks you doth worry too much.  

Bill

On Thursday, August 20, 2015 at 12:41:17 PM UTC-7, Irving Pham wrote:

[Irving Pham]

Thanks for all the responses everyone! I think I'm going to go ahead and go with the VO Postino Bars. This bike will be mostly used for a 9 mile round trip commute through the hectic traffic of San Francisco, some morning #coffeeoutside rides, and the occasional S240, so I think I'll be fine with the limited hand positions.

If it turns out I find the Postino's too wide, I can always try something like the Elysees that measure 47cm.

[Alistair Spence]

On Fri, Aug 21, 2015 at 9:04 AM, Irving Pham <irvin...@gmail.com> wrote:

Thanks for all the responses everyone! I think I'm going to go ahead and go with the VO Postino Bars. This bike will be mostly used for a 9 mile round trip commute through the hectic traffic of San Francisco, some morning #coffeeoutside rides, and the occasional S240, so I think I'll be fine with the limited hand positions.

If it turns out I find the Postino's too wide, I can always try something like the Elysees that measure 47cm.

Good call. I'm using the Elysees on three bikes currently. Plays well with low trail/front load in my experience.

Alistair Spence,

Seattle, WA.

[Alex Wetmore]

Drop bars and flat bar widths aren't really comparable.  I like 42cm drop bars, but prefer my flat bars to be at least 55cm wide to keep my wrists at a comfortable angle.  If they are too narrow and the bars are swept back (like Elysees) then my elbows end up pointing inwards in an uncomfortable way.

If you sit at your desk with your hands oriented in a drop bar position and then rotate them to a flat and swept position you'll see that the bars need to be wider to keep your elbows in the same position.

My favorite flat bars by far are the Nitto Jitensha bars.  They are also a bargain for a heat treated Nitto bar.  The only downside is that the final straight sections are a little short for some shifter/brake lever/grip combinations.  I've always been able to make them work with Alfine shifters, standard V-brake levers, and Ergon grips.  It's really nice that these bars are more widely available now.

alex

---

From: 65...@googlegroups.com <65...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Irving Pham <irvin...@gmail.com>
Sent: Friday, August 21, 2015 9:04 AM
To: 650b
Subject: [650B] Re: Wide Handlebars and Low Trail Geometry?

 

Thanks for all the responses everyone! I think I'm going to go ahead and go with the VO Postino Bars. This bike will be mostly used for a 9 mile round trip commute through the hectic traffic of San Francisco, some morning #coffeeoutside rides, and the occasional S240, so I think I'll be fine with the limited hand positions.

If it turns out I find the Postino's too wide, I can always try something like the Elysees that measure 47cm.

--

[Mark Guglielmana]

Alex,

That's a nice bend, similar to what I'm riding. The only geometric difference is rise, it would appear. I never thought about why I don't like narrower flat bars, your description makes complete sense. 

And +1 on the Ergon grips, especially the cork ones-very comfortable. I can relax my hands and still feel like I have a good grip on the bars.

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Mark Guglielmana

[Irving Pham]

There's also a pretty good post a little further down on this list that shows some users experiences with Jitensha and Postino bars with thumb shifters, brake levers, and grips.

On Thursday, August 20, 2015 at 12:41:17 PM UTC-7, Irving Pham wrote:

[mitch....@gmail.com]

On Friday, August 21, 2015 at 4:51:25 AM UTC-6, Steve Palincsar wrote:

Tell me again, what trail values do you consider to be "mid-trail"?
   

 

When I say mid-trail Im talking about narrow tire (26mm GBs for me) 56-57mm trail. The common trail figure of so many sport bikes past and present.

 

The range is probably 54 to 59 or so. 60 and above I start to notice the high-trail attributes. Bikes I've ridden with trail from the high 40s to the low 50s are inbetween somehow (this was common for crit-specific bikes in the 80s) and--to me--don't have the good qualities of low trail, nor the good qualities of mid-trail. I experience them as squirrelly. All my examples of mid-trail have 73 or 74 deg head angles. You've made the point before that tire width significantly affects how a give trail figure handles, so I make sure I'm taking that into account.

 

Not sure if this applies to  your question, but I should say I'm not advocating for mid-trail. I like riding mid-trail bikes because a light unloaded mid-trail ride can be delightful to ride. They do have drawbacks, mainly if you want to carry a front load, but also low speed stability is more challanging.

 

This last isn't terrible because experienced mid-trail riders just learn to keep their body movements circumspect. But it's always there and it's not really necessary because my experience of low trail 700C narrow tire bikes in the 40-45mm range suggests they have all the happy responsiveness of a good mid-trail ride, even unloaded, and all the useful traits of low trail ride. As much as I enjoy my good mid-trail rides, if I were building a narrow tire 700C bike I can't think of a good reason not to go with moderate low trail 40-45mm.

[Steve Palincsar]

Asking because I wanted to calculate and compare the trail on my 1991 George Longstaff Audax Custom (72 degree head angle, 28mm tires, 50 mm offset) and the 2002 orange Rambouillet I got within weeks of each other back in 2002.  The Longstaff calculates out to 56mm trail, which I'd say falls within your "mid-trail" range.  Riding this bike with a small Carradice seat bag and nothing up front, the steering feels a whole lot like that on my decided low-trail Velo Orange Randonneur, much more so than it did the high trail Rambouillet.

[Alistair Spence]

On Fri, Aug 21, 2015 at 9:09 AM, Alex Wetmore <al...@phred.org> wrote:

Drop bars and flat bar widths aren't really comparable.  I like 42cm drop bars, but prefer my flat bars to be at least 55cm wide to keep my wrists at a comfortable angle.  If they are too narrow and the bars are swept back (like Elysees) then my elbows end up pointing inwards in an uncomfortable way.

This an important point. I've found this to true myself. 

Alistair Spence,

Seattle, WA.

[mitch....@gmail.com]

On Friday, August 21, 2015 at 12:01:37 PM UTC-6, Steve Palincsar wrote:

Asking because I wanted to calculate and compare the trail on my 1991 George Longstaff Audax Custom (72 degree head angle, 28mm tires, 50 mm offset) and the 2002 orange Rambouillet I got within weeks of each other back in 2002.  The Longstaff calculates out to 56mm trail, which I'd say falls within your "mid-trail" range.  Riding this bike with a small Carradice seat bag and nothing up front, the steering feels a whole lot like that on my decided low-trail Velo Orange Randonneur, much more so than it did the high trail Rambouillet.

For some years I also did not readily notice the difference between my low trail 74 deg HA 40mm trail 700c bike and my 56mm trail bikes for a while. They both seemed easy and quick to turn. What I did notice back then was that when I went from one to the other, the first couple times I stood out of the saddle I had to adjust to a different out-of-saddle steering feel. Only after we started talking a lot about trail on the list did I decide to pay more attention to the difference. I really thought there wasn't much until one day climbing a canyon slowly on the low trail bike my riding partner said, "hey you're not squirrelly today like you were yesterday." And she was right. Like I said to Brad you pay more attention to right straight at slow speeds on mid-trail and on group rides or more intense rides or rides where I'm focused, I ride straight. But on lazy canyon climbing days when the road is empty for miles and I like to look around at the mountains, I guess I let myself wander a bit and get squirrelly, as Brad has observed. But on this day, being just as lazy and looking around on low-trail, I apparently was riding straight up the road no wandering.  After that I paid attention and noticed things like on mid-trail I concentrate on holding my line when I turn my head around to look behind me. But on low-trail I just look behind me. 

I've read the Ram is long-trail, mid-60s mm maybe. Haven't ridden a Ram but I find long-trail can wander at low speed like mid-trail. At moderate to higher speeds, the extra trail acts to keep the wheel firmly on course and I've found it resisting my efforts to turn, especially past 25mph. When I remember to counter-steer it's suddenly easy to turn again, but generally I'm not fond of how much a long trail bike wants to stay on course. My mtbs have all been long trial and somehow it works there and feels maneuverable. I guess I'm too used to the way mid-trail and low-trail bikes are so ready to turn, low-trail with more bar-steer and mid-trail with more body-shift. But you can sit on a long-trail bike on a descent and shift weight all around and yank on the bar and it still doesn't want to turn. I'm exaggerating but that's how it can feel until I remember to counter-steer. It's most noticeable on fast descents. I have an idea that experienced riders like John Woods who prefer long-trail road bikes counter-steer more and more automatically. There must be something to the pneumatic trail because my mid-trail 650B conversion on 42mm BSP ELs requires more counter-steer to turn at speed since the conversion. So it's acting more like a long-trail bike. 

It's interesting the Grant P switched from building sweet mid-trail RBs to long-trail bikes almost exclusively. I wonder if he's talked about why. Maybe it's for dirt descent stability. 

--Mitch

[Steve Palincsar]

On 08/21/2015 10:14 PM, mitch....@gmail.com wrote:
> I've read the Ram is long-trail, mid-60s mm maybe. Haven't ridden a
> Ram but I find long-trail can wander at low speed like mid-trail. At
> moderate to higher speeds, the extra trail acts to keep the wheel
> firmly on course and I've found it resisting my efforts to turn,
> especially past 25mph.

I one time was climbing a 14% grade in my 24x30 gear on the Rambouillet,
fighting to keep it going in a straight line and lost the plot for a
fraction of a second and ended up going almost 90 degrees onto the
shoulder. And I wasn't heavily loaded. And yes, the Rambouillet had
that "locked into the arc, riding on rails" feeling in a turn.

The Longstaff, very similarly to my VO, MAP and Kogswell P/R, doesn't
keep wanting to go zigging and zagging off on its own, and I don't have
to keep sawing at the bars to catch it from wandering off when climbing
at a slow speed.

Another useful comparison: the Longstaff is 7/4/7 with an 8/5/8
downtube, lighter construction than any frame builder would consider for
one of my size and weight. First time I rode it up a hill I thought to
myself, "Wow!! This thing really wants to climb!" Thing big round pedal
strokes and put in a couple of strong ones, and on a modest grade the
Longstaff just ups and scoots. Old timers say it has a "lively ride."

By contrast, on the identical rise that I could power up with a couple
of big strong round pedal strokes on the Longstaff, with the Rambouillet
I had to downshift downshift downshift, and trying to power it up a
grade was like doing isometrics against a concrete bridge pillar.
This, I am certain, is what BQ refers to as "planing."

[Mike Schiller]

I had a 58 cm Ram which was a nice riding bike but limited in tire size.  The 58 had a trail of 57 mm using a 72.5 HTA and 50 mm fork rake. A little  shorter trail than other Riv's in that  size for some reason.

~mike

[rob perks]

Irving,

If you can get in touch with Jason Ferrier he may have a bike you can ride or swap cockpits and see what you like.  He frequently swaps his 57 Rambler back and forth between drop bars and a Jitensha bar.  If anything it would give you some frame of reference.  

I generally ride wider bars, but am a bit of an outlier at 6'3" 220lbs.  I am in the camp that thinks most of them handle just fine, and focus on the ergonomics of wrist/elbow/shoulder  to get the comfort you want.

-- 

Rob Perks

oceanaircycles.com

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[cfo...@algorithmia.io]

Sorry to resurrect this old thread, but I recently bought my first low-trail bike (a Rawland xSogn) for wet, hilly Seattle commutes. I loev the bike, but I'm not feeling the shofter, brakes, or bars.

To be honest, I kind of feel like I'm going to endo when I get into the drops on a steep downhill. Since I'm swapping to STIs and hydros, I was thinking I might try some dirt drops like Cowchippers for a more upright feel. Then I remembered that SRAM makes flat-bar shifters and brakes, so I thought about trekking bars, which I love. But I'm worried about affecting handling, especially with the longer stem the trekking bar option might require. 

Any thoughts on dirt drops or trekking bars with a low-trail bike?

On Thursday, August 20, 2015 at 12:41:17 PM UTC-7, Irving Pham wrote:

[Alex Wetmore]

There is no problem with flat or trekking bars and low trail brakes.  I personally really like Nitto Jitensha bars (MAP/Ahearne bars are similar) for city riding on low trail bikes.

If I bought an xSogn I'd probably put a pair of those on, use the existing brakes, Avid SD7 brake levers, and the appropriate SRAM shifter.

I built a very similar bike for my wife using an Elephant NFE frame and it's a really great ride.

alex

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From: 65...@googlegroups.com <65...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of cfo...@algorithmia.io <cfo...@algorithmia.io>
Sent: Thursday, January 24, 2019 8:47:27 AM

To: 650b
Subject: [650B] Re: Wide Handlebars and Low Trail Geometry?

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[Marvin D]

With the longish reach on the Xsogn I would be very tempted to run trekking bars like the Modolo Yuma https://www.modolo.it/products/trekking-handlebars/modolo-yuma-1/

Glad that Nashbar discontinued their version as the square ramps kinda defeated the purpose of trekking bars.

Semper Birotas!

Marvin D

--

- Marvin Davis

  Semper Birotas

[Nick Favicchio]

I like wide and low trail. I'm running 50cm VO Rando bars now and eyeing the Crust towel rack in 615mm when they get a new batch from Taiwan.

[mitch....@gmail.com]

I'm also enjoying wider bars for low trail than the BQ recommendation. On my 30mm trail bike I have had 38cm wide drop bars and 44cm wide drop bars on it and enjoyed both and felt no change in how steering geometry worked, just the different fit and ergonomics. As a result I choose bar width only for comfort/fit and for accommodating bag width. Both my wide and narrow bars were a couple inches below saddle height and pretty long reach so there was plenty of leverage for weighting the front wheel. That would have been my only concern with wider or flat bars and low trail--keeping weight on the front wheel. So it's useful to hear that wide flat bars and trekking bars can work fine too, even if they are higher and weight further back. There are plenty of trail situations where I'd want less weight on the front wheel, or the ability to weight/unweight it more than a trad rando-road position invites.

Mitch

in Utah