Boulder Bicycles

[earlethomas]

I've been trying to get pricing on the Boulder 650b all road. Mike Kone's not replying to my email, so if anyone owns one,what did you pay and how long ago? He's not taking orders until January, which may be why he's not responding, or maybe issues w/tariffs. I'd like a ballpark so I can start planning now.

thomas

[earlethomas]

Thanks Igor, I tried that # again today,never a response. Tariff issues because though the bikes are made here it doesn't mean the steel is, could be applied to tubes sourced outside USA.

On Saturday, November 24, 2018 at 3:47:18 PM UTC-5, Igor Belopolsky wrote:

Call Mike.

(720) 532-3482

Also, Waterford used to be the builder. I don't know how up-to-date that message on the site is that you reference.

There wouldn't be any tarriff issues since this bike is USA made.

[Bob Lovejoy]

Hi Thomas,

I think that note on the Boulder site has been up for quite awhile and actually refers to (at least) last January.   Whatever happened with Waterford, be it pricing, tubing availability or turnaround time seems to have really have had an effect on designers and resellers who used Waterford as a frame supplier.  I wish I knew more of the story, only because I am curious, but I don't.  Maybe someone else knows and will provide more information.

Bob

[Matt Beecher]

I tried contacting them sometime last year and never got a reply either. I found that disappointing and a bad sign of their business practices. He should at least respond saying something about their Waterford issues. An automated response would be better than no response.

As an alternative, have you tried Jeff Lyon? He is building beautiful frames. I tried seeing if he would build me a lugged frame, but he is not building with lugs at the moment. His responses were quick though and his prices are very competitive.

Best regards,
Matt Beecher

[Reed Kennedy]

Mike Kone posted this strongly worded opinion piece over on Classic Rendezvous on November 9th of this year:

"The fake news bike media insists there is no performance loss when using wide tires such as 42mm or more - that is a crock. And I admit to complicity in promoting wide tires. For sure, bikes that see a lot of dirt, (or intended for use on exceptionally long rides), the comfort and stability gain of the wide tires is significant and may be the decider. But to argue that there is no performance loss, especially when climbing out of the saddle where there is more hysteresis loss, is without basis (show me some real statistics, not some exercise in confirmation bias with a sample size of N=3). It became so overwhelming trying to explain why 700c might still be the best choice for some people's rando bikes, that I put the Boulder Bicycle program on hold. I was having the same conversation with different folks every week and it was exhausting."

Bold at the end mine. Whatever you think of the rest, it does confirm that Mike still considers Boulder Bikes "on hold" as of earlier this month.

Best,

Reed

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[Lee Legrand]

Hi Reed,

I haven't been to the site but it is interesting that he holds that position on wide tires. Jan has posted studies on wide tires that are up to 42 mm using 650 wheel sizes comparing them to 700c with less than wider tires but similar rotation of inertia.  Is Mike performing similar bike test to show why Jan is wrong?  Experience is sometimes not the best way to compare this data without laying out all the facts.

[Steve Chan]

On Sun, Nov 25, 2018 at 12:03 PM Lee Legrand <krm...@gmail.com> wrote:

I haven't been to the site but it is interesting that he holds that position on wide tires. Jan has posted studies on wide tires that are up to 42 mm using 650 wheel sizes comparing them to 700c with less than wider tires but similar rotation of inertia.  Is Mike performing similar bike test to show why Jan is wrong?  Experience is sometimes not the best way to compare this data without laying out all the facts.

   Other people who are fans of Compass tires, and who are or have been on this list, have commented that skinnier 700c at higher pressure have less hysteresis losses when standing and they may prefer them for pure road rides. To be clear, Jan is quantitative, but his sample sizes are quite small. From what I've read, he is a lightweight, high cadence seated spinner with a very smooth pedal stroke - your results might vary if you stand up a lot, weigh more, don't spin as fast, etc...

[Lee Legrand]

Got it.

Thanks for the clarification.  I would agree that his sample sizes are small and he does not include the wide variation in cadence and pedal strokes.  It is something to look at. Hysteresis losses may be due to high-pressure tires maintaining a state of high stresses which minimizes losses versus wide tires that are not pumped to high pressure which is what he prefers.  I would like to see if the losses are the same if wide tires are pumped to high-pressure tires.  It may not be comfortable but it may show that the losses are due to pressure and not tire width sizes.

[Lee Legrand]

Just went to the website for Boulder parts store and Rene Herse which I know Mike Kone builds the frames and Boulder Frames.  Boulder parts store is still up and has a sign saying they are starting to send out parts November 27.  Boulder frames and which is linked to Rene Herse site looks like its down.  Maybe what you can do is send a message to Compass since Jan owns the rights to Rene Herse label and he can better tell you the situation.

On Sun, Nov 25, 2018 at 4:27 PM Igor Belopolsky <belopol...@gmail.com> wrote:

Thomas, is reads to me here that your search for a Boulder has come to an end, at least for now. What you could do is reach out to Waterford and see what they can do for you, seeing as they were the ones building the Boulder Bikes.

Alternatively, I, as well as others here, can recommend other builders for you.

[earlethomas]

Lee,thanks, I'll try Jan. Igor, who would you suggest? I've been looking at Gunnar and Milwaulkee, not looking for full custom, something lighter than Soma GR.

[Justin, Oakland]

Look at the Box Dog Pelican, Northern Lyon-built randos, hmmmm. Not custom but light has been the grail but is slightly difficult.

-J

[Reed Kennedy]

For the record, I'm not agreeing with Mike! I just wanted to let folks know what I'd seen recently about his plans for Boulder Bikes. Seeing as this is the 650b list, perhaps I should have... trimmed a bit more, and quoted a bit less.

As for other builders, I can highly recommend John Fitzgerald of Fitz Cyclez. I had a glorious ride today on my Fitz Custom, shod in 650x48 shoes:

https://photos.app.goo.gl/NHFkmxjWi6XAcWS97

He's happy to put up with terminal Luddites like myself, but gladly builds with disc brakes, TIG welding, and sloping top tubes as well. Give him a shout, and feel free to drop my name.

http://www.fitzcyclez.com/

Reed

On Sun, Nov 25, 2018 at 3:26 PM earlethomas <zek...@netzero.net> wrote:

Lee,thanks, I'll try Jan. Igor, who would you suggest? I've been looking at Gunnar and Milwaulkee, not looking for full custom, something lighter than Soma GR.

[James McKinley]

Three years ago I bought a 650B from Bantam Bicycles ( http://www.bantambicycles.com/ ). I wanted a couplered touring bike, and had the frame dimensions from my Boulder Bike build.  Bantam bike is lugged, made to measure, braze-ons for fenders, bottles, etc., frame and fork was $2250. Bike can be seen here: http://www.bantambicycles.com/bloggy-business/2016/6/26/650b-couplered-tourer-pt-4

Jim

On Saturday, November 24, 2018 at 2:39:55 PM UTC-5, earlethomas wrote:

[Reed Kennedy]

On Sun, Nov 25, 2018 at 3:26 PM earlethomas <zek...@netzero.net> wrote:

Lee,thanks, I'll try Jan. Igor, who would you suggest? I've been looking at Gunnar and Milwaulkee, not looking for full custom, something lighter than Soma GR.

Derp. Just realized that you said "not... full custom". Fitz bikes are definitely full custom, though they cost about the same as the Boulder Bikes if memory serves. I wouldn't consider Boulder frames "production", personally. Mike doesn't maintain a stock of frames, he just has Waterford build them when they're ordered. The slight savings comes from not having to draw up a new CAD.

As others have mentioned, light but production basically doesn't exist right now. The closest are the Rawland frames that are no longer for sale. The Nordavinden is the lightest (7/4/7 and 8/5/8), and is 650b in smaller sizes. (The larger Nords can be converted with a longer reach brake.) There's also the Stag which is just a bit heavier.

I have measurements of several of these frames up on my sheet:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1XeS2nJhBPSDRbqgG1-F2VOI_vK1QZnZmysARDJWyGps/edit?usp=sharing

Best,

Reed

[Daniel Jackson]

Reed:

What BB spindle length are you using on this bike? Did John have to crimp the rear fender at all as it passes through the chainstays?

Thanks,

D.

[nm matt]

thomas,
what size frame are you looking for? i have a small/54cm Rawland Nordavinden that will very soon be for sale.
best,
matt

[Reed Kennedy]

On Sun, Nov 25, 2018 at 5:55 PM Daniel Jackson <daniel.se...@gmail.com> wrote:

What BB spindle length are you using on this bike?

 

I originally ran an IRD QB-95 103mm BB, the shortest one made. That worked for a while, but once the crank settled the chainring contacted the chainstay. I removed it and reinstalled with a 2mm spacer on the drive side. It cleared, barely, but made funny noises intermittently. 

I recently decided I'm not a fan of bottom brackets with individual, replaceable sealed cartridge bearings on either side. I pulled the 103mm QB-95 and replaced it with a 107mm Shimano UN-72, removing the spacer. Did my first ride on that today (50 miles) and so far so good. Everything fits better too.

Please note two things:

1) I'm using a Rene Herse double, a very narrow crank that mounts relatively further out on BB spindles than some others.

2) I probably do not have the "correct" 43.5mm chainline to between the rings. I generally ride this bike as a 44t 1x with a bailout 28t. I have the 44t chainring centered on the cassette at around 43.5mm. That puts the 28t *way* too far inboard, but I only use it with the bottom 5 cassette cogs, so it works out.

Did John have to crimp the rear fender at all as it passes through the chainstays?

John massaged the chainstays such that the Honjo / Compass 62mm fenders *almost* fit without modification, but not quite. I ended up indenting the fenders very slightly. (John was planning to install them, but was unable to due to an injury. The fender line being slightly off is thus my fault.) These fenders aren't supposed to be used with 48mm tires, so if you indent them much at all you won't have any tire clearance, not to mention mud clearance!

Best,

Reed

[Reed Kennedy]

On Sun, Nov 25, 2018 at 6:39 PM nm matt <matt.br...@gmail.com> wrote:

thomas,
what size frame are you looking for?  i have a small/54cm Rawland Nordavinden that will very soon be for sale. 

I adore my Nordavinden and can't recommend it highly enough. Somebody snap it up!

Best,

Reed 

[Justin, Oakland]

There’s lots of 650b Pelicans out there Igor. You’re mistaken. Northern Lyon I’m not sure about.

-J

[Ken Freeman]

I have a Terraferma that isn't a good fit and is for sale.

ST 55 c-c

TT 56 

73/73

8 cm bb drop.

standard diameter OX Plat

CS 44 cm 

Fork offset 67 mm

Trail 35 mm with Hetre

OLD 130 mm

accepts 60 mm Compass fenders

1" headset 

On Mon, Nov 26, 2018 at 6:30 AM Justin, Oakland <justin...@gmail.com> wrote:

There’s lots of 650b Pelicans out there Igor. You’re mistaken. Northern Lyon I’m not sure about.

-J

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Ken Freeman
Ann Arbor, MI USA

[satanas]

Hmmm. I should probably just ignore this thread, but anyway...

1. Nobody knows everything
2. Someone may know what works for them, but that doesn't guarantee it will work for anyone else. Arguing the point more vociferously does not change this
3. Some people don't believe #1 or #2 apply to them
4. It's much, much easier to buy a frameset from a builder whose viewpoint is similar to yours - everyone will be happier ;-)

If it was me, I'd talk to people who might be sympathetic to what you're after, starting with the more local ones unless you're sure someone else will be a better fit; I'm off a new local builder's launch this Friday to find out where they're coming from.

Later,
Stephen

[Igor Belopolsky]

I'm not sure what you mean.

In that there are 650B Pelicans running about, sure. I know there is one for sale now on eBay. 

[Mark Anderson]

For a (sort of) comparison, my main rider is a Boulder Brevet (700c x 32) and it is by far the best riding bike I've ever owned. I also had Jeff Lyon put together a 650b L'Avecaise about a year and a half back. I run fenders and 650b x 42 on that bike. Both excellent bikes, but in different ways. So, a little backstory first:

My Boulder experience has been so good that I spoke to Mike a few years ago about building a "sister" frame for me in 650b. He was not encouraging and suggested that if I really wanted wider tires to go up in size from the 28's I was running to a larger size. Even then he was telling me that my experience would not be comparable for my riding (primarily country roads and country highway). I listened to what he had to say, but I am from Missouri, and as they say here, "Show me." I decided to test the waters and purchased a Cycles Toussaint, version 1. That bike sported 650b x 38 tires and they definitely did soften the road. I was torn on the ride quality of that particular bike though and sold it. Several frame conversions later, along with comparisons to my '71 International running 700 x 38 Compass tires, I again called Boulder. Unlike in the past where it was easy to get on the phone and just chat, there was no response. A lot of builder research led me to Jeff Lyon - who, incidentally, was a joy to work with.

So on to comparisons: My Boulder is the most responsive (to me) ride ever. It fits me like a glove and the geometry/points of contact are the benchmarks I shoot for whenever I set up other bikes for myself. No other bike has come close, and I've owned/restored/ridden (literally) hundreds of steel frames. If I'm going to be on pavement, especially with climbing and distance involved, it's my ride. When the roads get rougher and I'm not feeling like slamming, then I ride my Lyon L'Avecaise. It's like floating... but I don't feel like I'm spinning up nearly as quickly with the 42's. It's much more spritely on 38's, but then the trade off is noticeable over the rough stuff. Winters do a number on our roads in the Midwest, so pavement is a relative term. 

I think back to what Mike was trying to help me understand, that my attempt to compare a 700c Boulder to  650b version was likely to be apples and oranges. I think he was probably right to lead me that direction. And while I'm glad to have 700c and 650b to choose from when I ride, I wonder now if my personal experience with a Boulder Brevet would have tainted my opinion of the 650b Boulder. Perhaps someone who rides that bike might chime in. What I feel with certainty is that Mike was advising me based on his personal gut feeling about frame design and owner expectations. I love my bike and sure do hope the Boulder program continues.

Mark Alan Anderson

Liberty, Missouri USA

[Adam Paiva]

I am a 650B evangelist and fully bought into it with my Lyon.  It is my favorite bike.  But I have to admit I actually agree with this part.

For sure, bikes that see a lot of dirt, (or intended for use on exceptionally long rides), the comfort and stability gain of the wide tires is significant and may be the decider. ...700c might still be the best choice for some people's rando bikes

I am not a real randonneur (maybe next year I'll find time to) but just use my rando bike as a road bike and adventure machine.  On my mostly paved rides, I do think I'm a bit faster on my 700x30 mm bike.  I'm fast enough though on the 650x42mm and the overall ride qualities still win out for me in favor of the 650b, and on the rougher rides the advantage of the fatter 650b is obvious.  But I don't really believe there is zero tradeoff in efficiency.  I guess I do tend to stand up and mash sometimes so maybe that is part of it.  I take all the BQ findings with several grains of salt.

Kind of a bummer to read this about Boulder.  Going awol doesn't seem like a good business way of dealing with differing opinions in bicycle design.  Maybe there's something else to the story.  I hope Mike picks back up with the Boulder program.

[Alex Wetmore]

I believe that the Elephant NFE is available with ultralight tubing for an upgrade price if you ask nicely.  I know of 3 in the world (2 on my block in Seattle) and think it is being considered as a standard upgrade offering.  The standard frame tubing is already thinner than what Soma uses on the GR.

The NFE special/ultralight that I have rides beautifully.  The NFE is also switching to 12mm through axle as the normal offering for the fork, and the frame uses modular dropouts that can do either TA12 or QR9.

I think of lighter tubing as a right quality choice, not a finished bike weight choice.  The thin/hard steel is more expensive and more annoying to work with, so there are probably cheaper ways to save weight if that is your primary motivation.

alex

---

From: 65...@googlegroups.com <65...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of earlethomas <zek...@netzero.net>
Sent: Sunday, November 25, 2018 3:26:49 PM
To: 650b
Subject: Re: [650B] Re: Boulder Bicycles

 

Lee,thanks, I'll try Jan. Igor, who would you suggest? I've been looking at Gunnar and Milwaulkee, not looking for full custom, something lighter than Soma GR.

[Justin, Oakland]

That reply was to the Gunnar/Milwaukee comment. Sorry my bad!

-J

[Joe Bernard]

"Kind of a bummer to read this about Boulder. Going awol doesn't seem like a good business way of dealing with differing opinions in bicycle design. Maybe there's something else to the story. I hope Mike picks back up with the Boulder program."

It is indeed a bummer, but I suspect the business decision was that Mike kept getting to the end of long calls about tires without a bike sale in the pocket. For a personal comparison I've lobbied several times on Google Group forums for a disc brake Riv, but Grant doesn't want to do one. Fortunately I wasn't obstinate enough to call and lobby for this personally..at some point you just gotta buy the bikes they want to make, or go elsewhere. It sounds like Mike wasn't getting enough people choosing the former.

[Reed Kennedy]

On Mon, Nov 26, 2018 at 8:40 AM Joe Bernard <joer...@gmail.com> wrote:

At some point you just gotta buy the bikes they want to make, or go elsewhere. It sounds like Mike wasn't getting enough people choosing the former.

This times 1000. Almost every custom I've heard of (including my own) has had some sorta gotcha somewhere. And that's after picking a builder who likes building what I like riding. 

There are so many talented people building frames today. You really don't want to talk your builder in to doing something they aren't in to. Best case, they'll do it but won't really be excited about it. Worst case, it'll be the first time they've done such things, and yours will be the frame they learn on.

I'm always a bit bewildered by folks who want a frame build by so-and-so but with several design choices so-and-so doesn't do. What value is the designer providing, again?

As for Mike, I can only imagine it's rough advocating against 650b these days. Add in that he helped bring 650b back in the first place, and geez. I can only imagine he has a lot of feelings going on.

Reed

[Ryan Watson]

The Ocean Air Rambler is another excellent option if one of the stock sizes works for you and has the wheel size you want. (Larger ones are 700c) 

I actually traded my Boulder All-Road for one!

Ryan in Albuquerque 

On Nov 25, 2018, at 14:27, Igor Belopolsky <belopol...@gmail.com> wrote:

Thomas, is reads to me here that your search for a Boulder has come to an end, at least for now. What you could do is reach out to Waterford and see what they can do for you, seeing as they were the ones building the Boulder Bikes.

Alternatively, I, as well as others here, can recommend other builders for you.

--

[Steve Palincsar]

"Update 2/5/18 - Ramblers are on hold for a bit while we sort out how these will continue to be produced.  The Cottage model was not working out for a variety of reasons, and we are working on a solution that takes these past being a charity or not for profit so that we can keep getting this style of bike into the world."   Deposit page says "Sold Out."  So unless you can find a used one, that's not one of the choices.

-- 
Steve Palincsar
Alexandria, Virginia 
USA

[Ryan Watson]

D'oh! I guess I've been too busy enjoying my Rambler and unaware of what was happening at Ocean Air HQ. 

Never even heard of the Cottage model!

Ryan

On Nov 26, 2018, at 10:23, Steve Palincsar <pali...@his.com> wrote:

"Update 2/5/18 - Ramblers are on hold for a bit while we sort out how these will continue to be produced.  The Cottage model was not working out for a lvariety of reasons, and we are working on a solution that takes these past being a charity or not for profit so that we can keep getting this style of bike into the world."   Deposit page says "Sold Out."  So unless you can find a used one, that's not one of the choices.

[Michael McArthur]

Interesting info on the lighter-gauge steel option for NFE. Am curious if this something best suited to lighter riders. 

I struggle to imagine the same tubeset being right for a 150lbs rider and a 200lbs rider. So in recommending the ride quality of the lighter NFE tubeset, are you advocating for a certain rider type or ?

Another consideration is that the new NFE price is within ~$300 of a custom Fitz. If one adds much more this stock frame's price (ie via tubing upgrade), the OP may consider getting a custom...

[Bob Lovejoy]

I believe the "cottage" model was really in reference to "cottage industry", in this case Page Street Cycles.  I had always dreamed of having and riding an OAC Rambler and also had the same feeling about any bike that Joseph Ahearne had anything to do with.  That said, I could not pull off the purchase when the last 61cm was available.

I know the costs were probably getting pushed up by the small numbers as well as having basically a handmade frame from known and accomplished builders.  I know Rob would probably love to find a way to produce the frame, be able to sell it for an reasonable or attainable price and still make a few dollars on the sale and I  sincerely hope that comes to pass...

Oh, and for reference, at least for the last batch of Rambler's... sizes 51-57cm were 650B, the 59-63cm were 700c.  I am almost positive that had absolutely nothing to do with perceived speed or whatever.  Also, all sizes used Paul Centerpull brakes (brazed on mounts for these) and both the 650B and 700c models max'ed at 42mm tires, based, I believe, on the brake clearance.

Bob

[Stephen Poole]

FWIW, I totally agree with Mark Anderson's (and Mike Kone's) comments on 700c versus 650b. Both are good/useful, but IME lightweight 700c wheels are indeed more responsive when accelerating and climbing, especially out of the saddle.

There are a few factors at work here, including casing flex, tyre sag under applied load and moment of inertia. All else being equal, then lighter casing, smaller section/higher pressure, and a lighter wheel and (especially) tyre will be more responsive/less draggy - especially when out of the saddle. The Panaracer-made EL casings make a significant difference to both comfort and speed, again IME. Larger tyres with lower pressure might indeed roll as well or better, however, they will also deflect much more when out of the saddle.

FWIW, I've now used three 650b "road" tyres on the same wheels, and with the same Schwalbe XXLight tubes, GB Hetres (412g), Soma Green Label (300g) and GB Écureuil EL (240g). The Hetres and GLs felt much the same apart from some issues with the GL's "tread pattern." The Écureuils are noticeably lighter, faster, and more comfortable - and less annoying out of the saddle(!). I'm still inclined to think that narrower and more racy 700c tyres on suitably light wheels are and/or feel faster on good surfaces, however the difference has shrunk considerably, and the Écureuils are much more competent when things get rougher.

Wider tyres again will of course be better on really rough stuff, so it's a matter of striking the correct balance based on terrain, surface, riding style, load carried, etc. It really depends what matters to each individual, as usual...

Later,

Stephen

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[David Parsons]

On Monday, November 26, 2018 at 12:43:42 PM UTC-8, satanas wrote:

FWIW, I totally agree with Mark Anderson's (and Mike Kone's) comments on 700c versus 650b. Both are good/useful, but IME lightweight 700c wheels are indeed more responsive when accelerating and climbing, especially out of the saddle.

FWIW, I've now used three 650b "road" tyres on the same wheels, and with the same Schwalbe XXLight tubes, GB Hetres (412g), Soma Green Label (300g) and GB Écureuil EL (240g).

    There are skinnier 650b road tires than those.  The Confrerie (33-34mm, 310 gm) is a comfortably fast tire with enough float to survive on a (non-logging) gravel road, and the Schwalbe Ones (25mm, 220gm) are excellent if you don't go off paved roads or are willing to put up with inner tubes.  And 650b has the nice selling point that you can build a frame with clearance for fatter tires without making it into a monster truck, use the same machine with skinny tires if you're trawling for that sub-7 200k or fatter tires if you're wandering on forest or unpaved farm roads.

  -david parsons

[lj mangin]

I received my Boulder 650b about a year ago.  Mike was great to work with though he did indicate to me that there were some sourcing issues with Waterford.  He also mentioned to me that I may have received the last Boulder made by Waterford, though I can't confirm that.  My Boulder is the skinny-tubed version and is semi-custom in that the top tube was shortened for me.  I couldn't be happier with the results.  I am an avid rando rider and I put a lot of miles on the Boulder this year, including the Coulee Challenge.  It has treated me well.  I will mention that I also have a Fitz and a Yipsan (yes I am 650b spoiled!) and it is sometimes difficult to decide what to ride.  My Yipsan has seen the most miles and it is truly a work of art, as is the Fitz.  They are all fantastic rides.  I bumped into Mike in early November and I believe he mentioned that he may be looking for another source for Boulder frames, but would suggest getting that confirmed by him if possible.

Regarding the 650b vs. 700c debate, I can't say I can add much to the conversation.  I have a 1985 DeRosa that rides as nice as anything I have been on, 700x28s on that.  But it is not a rando bike for me over 200km, I am soft and like to be comfortable.  It seems to me the problem with the debate is having true data.  That will be difficult to come by, there likely isn't much of a "return on investment" to study this kind of topic and there are a high number of variables to account for.  That may be a point in support of Jan's efforts, based on what he controlled for he arrived at the results that we have seen.  I can't say I can notice the subtleties of higher suspension losses while standing (though this makes sense to me) and I stand alot when climbing (especially on Coulee!) but that's just me.  It would seem to me that is an opportunity for someone to study, but it seems that is where we are with respect to new frontiers in cycling.  I am likely in the camp of different configurations for different riders based on size, your riding style, preferences, etc.

John M in Loveland, CO

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[David Parsons]

On Monday, November 26, 2018 at 7:16:42 PM UTC-8, lj mangin wrote:

  It seems to me the problem with the debate is having true data.  That will be difficult to come by, there likely isn't much of a "return on investment" to study this kind of topic and there are a high number of variables to account for. 

Fortunately good narrow 650b tires now exist, so people can start riding them and see how they are compared to the fat tires that are under the majority of the randonerdish 650b machines.   I've ridden a small bunch of populaires & 200ks on 650x25 & 650x33 (Ones & Confreries) and they seem to be moderately faster than anything else 650b'ish I've ridden, but I suspect that's an artifact of the tire quality instead of the width because I've ridden brevets on GB Cypres & Riv Nifty Slothies and those suuuuuuuuuuucked dead bunnies through a straw, then ridden brevets on Pacenti flat magnets (38mm Pari-Motos) and clocked in 100k times competitive with Confreries and the platonic ideal of a rando tire (700x28c Resist Nomads).

-david parsons

[al lin]

Piggybacking on Alex's excellent Elephant NFE rec..

I ride a stock medium NFE (batch 5, 2016) and my experience with the bike has been fantastic. It's light enough for my needs that an upgrade thinner tubing would be for the most discerning of riders. The current NFE generation with through-axles seem even more deal and that's one thing I'm envious about.

My short list these days would be Elephant NFE, Fitz Cycles, or the Lyon x Norther collab depending on which aesthetics you prefer.

al

sf/ca

[Derek Z]

“My short list these days would be Elephant NFE, Fitz Cycles, or the Lyon x Norther collab depending on which aesthetics you prefer.”

With all sincerity, I’m a little confounded why one would go the Norther Lyon route over a L’Avecaise other than the possibility of a shorter lead time? I just received a fully custom L’Av with filed fillets and slotted dropouts - and tubing spec, dimensions, braze-ons, fork crown & blades & color all spec’d by me for only $350 more than a NortherLyon. Yes $350 is not nothing but that’s for a fully custom frameset with several options that any builder upcharges for. Delivery was 6 months from the first phone call to Jeff.
Derek Z

[Steve Palincsar]

On 11/27/18 8:17 AM, Derek Z wrote:
> “My short list these days would be Elephant NFE, Fitz Cycles, or the Lyon x Norther collab depending on which aesthetics you prefer.”
>
> With all sincerity, I’m a little confounded why one would go the Norther Lyon route over a L’Avecaise other than the possibility of a shorter lead time?

Possibly because Jeff isn't building L'Avecaise right now, devoting his
time to the Norther + Lyon collab?  At least, that's what I'd read when
the collab was first announced.

> I just received a fully custom L’Av with filed fillets and slotted dropouts - and tubing spec, dimensions, braze-ons, fork crown & blades & color all spec’d by me for only $350 more than a NortherLyon. Yes $350 is not nothing but that’s for a fully custom frameset with several options that any builder upcharges for. Delivery was 6 months from the first phone call to Jeff.
> Derek Z
>

[Derek Z]

Steve,
This isn’t the case. Jeff told me directly that he currently is and will continue to accept custom orders. I’m aware that Norther has publicly said otherwise and I certainly don’t want to step on any toes here but that is what I was told.
Additionally, I ordered my frameset just a few days before the NortherLyon collaboration was announced. That collaboration must have been well in the works when Jeff accepted my order.
I received my frame yesterday. I’ll be building it up at the end of this week and will share photos with the list. It exceeded my expectations.
Best,
Derek Z

[ilter]

Derek,
Did Jeff install fenders, racks or lights on your L'Avecaise?
If the answer is no, that's one reason to go with the Norther Lyons.
Ilter

[Derek Z]

He built my frameset around a Compass M13 canti rack which he had on hand during the build, no fenders or lights. I’m sure he would have if I had asked.
Derek Z

[p k]

This has been my growing feeling as well. 700x32 are really great for smooth road rides. 650bx42 are great for chipped and cracked city roads. 

I find myself in your position as well. I'm finding 650bx38 for road rides to have that spirited ride feel, while also being fairly comfortable on rougher roads. I break out the hetres if the roads are on the rougher side.

[Andy Bailey Goodell]

I haven't done enough A B A testing to know for sure, but I did really enjoy my time on 700x32. That's when I was riding a lot of brevets, fast group rides, and occasional races, plus a fair bit of gravel. I didn't mind underbiking when the opportunity arose, and even 32mm can handle most anything except really big gravel, though maybe not ideal. By the time I got a proper 650b bike, the extra width going 38-42-47 made the ride super comfy, but did initially feel a tad slower in 47 so I went back to 42 (also because I added fenders). I can only imagine there must be more going on behind the scenes to make a builder decide to shut down than just fielding questions about wheel size. If he really doesn't want to make 650, is it that tough to say they only build 700?

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[Eric Keller]

On Tue, Nov 27, 2018 at 11:12 AM p k <phili...@gmail.com> wrote:

This has been my growing feeling as well. 700x32 are really great for smooth road rides. 650bx42 are great for chipped and cracked city roads. 

I find myself in your position as well. I'm finding 650bx38 for road rides to have that spirited ride feel, while also being fairly comfortable on rougher roads. I break out the hetres if the roads are on the rougher side.

Seems to me that roads are getting rougher and rougher over time.  I sometimes ride with someone that is about the same speed as me, and he often pulls away on rougher chipseal.  He uses 650bx42, and I use 32mm 700c.  This summer in UP Michigan, I wished I was on bigger tires.  Ride was in late August, I still have slight numbness in two fingers on my left hand.  

Eric Keller

Boalsburg, Pennsylvania

[Eli Naeher]

For a long time I was really looking at a Boulder Road Sport to run 700x32s. It is kind of a sweet spot for me (I have a fixed-gear in that size which I love, but I don't have the legs--or knees--to do hilly 200ks fixed). I ended up getting a Look 585 for a steal, which satisfies my need for a light go-fast bike, but it only takes skinny tires and if money were no object I'd love a light road bike for 32s.

-Eli

New York

[Joseph Bernard]

"If he really doesn't want to make 650, is it that tough to say they only build 700?"

If you're in a situation where every damn phone order turns into a debate about building a bike you're not into, yes I can see how that could become exhausting to the point of "I give up." Nobody is getting rich designing and selling bikes, so there better be some level of enjoyment in it. 

[Adam Paiva]

Great to hear Jeff is still taking orders on customs.  I dream of a 700c 32mm 7/4/7 tubed di2 weight weenie version of my 650b bike to keep each other company.  Maybe someday.

[Lee Legrand]

Hello All,

Jan has posted today an email topic in which this thread began on (hysteresis loss and rider weight but not standing up while climbing).  I suspect he is reading this post.😂

On Tue, Nov 27, 2018 at 12:09 PM Adam Paiva <adam....@gmail.com> wrote:

Great to hear Jeff is still taking orders on customs.  I dream of a 700c 32mm 7/4/7 tubed di2 weight weenie version of my 650b bike to keep each other company.  Maybe someday.

--

[Steve Palincsar]

On 11/27/18 9:48 AM, Derek Z wrote:
> Steve,
> This isn’t the case. Jeff told me directly that he currently is and will continue to accept custom orders. I’m aware that Norther has publicly said otherwise and I certainly don’t want to step on any toes here but that is what I was told.

Good to know!

> Additionally, I ordered my frameset just a few days before the NortherLyon collaboration was announced. That collaboration must have been well in the works when Jeff accepted my order.
> I received my frame yesterday. I’ll be building it up at the end of this week and will share photos with the list. It exceeded my expectations.

I've seen a couple in person, and have always been impressed by them.  A
former club member who moved away to Florida has one and a Boulder Road
Sport.  Last time I saw the L'Avecaise, at Bike Virginia this summer, it
had been outfitted with Rene Herse cranks and brakes, and oh my what a
beautiful thing it was to behold!

[Derek Z]

Spoiler alert - mine will have Herse cranks and Herse canti brakes :)

Derek Z

[Steve Palincsar]

An excellent choice in every possible way!

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[Edd Bread]

What's the ST length? I'm keen :) 

On Monday, 26 November 2018 13:39:10 UTC+11, nm matt wrote:

thomas,
what size frame are you looking for?  i have a small/54cm Rawland Nordavinden that will very soon be for sale.  
best,
matt

[earlethomas]

I'd love to bite, but I think 54cm a bit large for me. For years I rode a 56cm Elance 400 in my ignorance, and have a 56cm Lyon bike that's simply too big. Long story, and I like the Nord, but I ain't buying another bike too big for me. 5' 6.5"  standover is 29" Probably looking at 50 to 52 cm seat tube.

thomas

[nm matt]

thomas,
i feel ya. i have about the same inseem/PBH and the nordavinden is a very french fit...fistfull of post. i do, however, have a longer torso so the custom i had made to replace the nord has a slightly longer top tube. i am also selling soon a discified rawland csogn that has a sloping top tube, but it is not skinny tubed or thin walled. i can conjure a picture if you have any interest.

[earlethomas]

Not sure what you mean by french fit, but regarding your csogn, again, I like the Rawlands but am a bit of a luddite per disc, I don't like the weight or the aesthetic, haven't tried them so I keep a somewhat open mind, but won't purchase untried. When I first renewed my interest in cycling about 1 1/2 yrs ago I was enthralled with disc brakes and carbon forks, but have since moved to a more traditional view.

thomas

[Max]

I think the tire sizing calculus is simpler than many make it out... For the most part, the larger the outer circumference, the better and faster the ride. But there are practical limits. So...

1) Figure out the approximate size of surface irregularity on your typical rides
2) Run a tire that has enough height (volume) that it will not bottom out when hitting said irregularity
3) Run a rim size that will allow you to have a bike frame of reasonable dimensions, fender accommodation, and q-factor

... I can see how for some, riding in a sporting style with significant out-of-saddle efforts will feel better with a tire pumped to higher pressures. That can be accomplished in principle with a fat tire also, with the benefit of reducing pinch flats, but at the same time pressure on rim side-walls scales with tire cross-section, and together with breaking heat can cause blowouts and sidewall failures. Well, plus the weight of a larger tire, etc. So... compromises were made over the ages, depending on discipline. Most of us would benefit tremendously from adding safety and comfort of balloon tires, so why not?

- Max “to each their own” in A2

[p k]

French fit meaning, you ride the biggest frame possible - biggest seat tube size as possible, so the top tube is higher up, so you can get your bars higher up on horizontal top tube bikes. French fit doesn't care at all about standover height. However, it doesn't really work for most modern bikes since the top tubes are too long. 

I rode a 52cm BDB Pelican which had a 54.5cm top tube with a 70mm stem. However, I got sized at Grand Bois, who does French fit. My seat tube was closer to 55cm, with the top tube being 53.8cm, with a 70mm stem. I feel less stretched out, and more comfortable. Ikuo at Grand Bois asked me "Warning, you will have no standover, it's French fit". To which I replied, "That's the whole reason I came to you".

[CJ Arayata]

A buddy in NJ was trying to get a Boulder for awhile last year, but after a lot of back and forth with Mike about 700c vs. 650b, he was eventually turned down because the Waterford relationship ceased. I'm going to assume he's currently on the hunt for other framebuilders to partner with, but don't know anything more about the 'future' of Boulder.

On Saturday, November 24, 2018 at 2:39:55 PM UTC-5, earlethomas wrote:

I've been trying to get pricing on the Boulder 650b all road. Mike Kone's not replying to my email, so if anyone owns one,what did you pay and how long ago? He's not taking orders until January, which may be why he's not responding, or maybe issues w/tariffs. I'd like a ballpark so I can start planning now.

thomas

[William Lindsay]

Derek Z said (with all sincerity): "I’m a little confounded why one would go the Norther Lyon route over a L’Avecaise other than the possibility of a shorter lead time"

I'm one who put a deposit down on a Norther Lyon.  My reasons included:

1. I've long admired Jeff's work, have done some business with Jeff, but never on a frameset. This opportunity made it easy

2. I had heard excellent things about Norther, and I like supporting a small business that serves the niche that I occupy.

3. I'm a very easy to fit 'off the rack' kind of body type. I know my numbers well, and the 58 looked just right.

4. the spec as described in the Norther/Lyon was pretty much what I would have spec'd anyway

5. The price was good, especially the presale price

6. I generally like paying people to do what they want to do. I presumed that Jeff wanted to batch a few frames and have Norther deal with the customers for him. I don't mind paying for him to do that, and I hope it makes things easy for him

7. The lead time was not a consideration for me, but it would be nice to have mine by my 50th birthday in February :)

I hope my Norther/Lyon and Derek Z's L'Avecaise are both lovely bikes and I hope we are both equally happy riding them, and equally happy having spent our discretionary cycling dollars on them. It does not confound me in the slightest that Derek Z chose to buy a full custom L'Avecaise over a Norther/Lyon. I hope my choice is less confounding.

Bill Lindsay

El Cerrito, CA

[Derek Z]

Haha! Great Response Bill! Thanks for sharing this, you make some very clear and obvious (even to me) points. I look forward to seeing your bike...

Peace,

Derek Z

[William Lindsay]

I look forward to seeing my bike, too!  :)

BL in EC

[mitch....@gmail.com]

On Monday, November 26, 2018 at 9:54:26 AM UTC-7, Reed Kennedy wrote:

On Mon, Nov 26, 2018 at 8:40 AM Joe Bernard <joer...@gmail.com> wrote:

At some point you just gotta buy the bikes they want to make, or go elsewhere. It sounds like Mike wasn't getting enough people choosing the former.

This times 1000. Almost every custom I've heard of (including my own) has had some sorta gotcha somewhere. And that's after picking a builder who likes building what I like riding. 

There are so many talented people building frames today. You really don't want to talk your builder in to doing something they aren't in to. Best case, they'll do it but won't really be excited about it. Worst case, it'll be the first time they've done such things, and yours will be the frame they learn on.

I'm always a bit bewildered by folks who want a frame build by so-and-so but with several design choices so-and-so doesn't do. What value is the designer providing, again?

As for Mike, I can only imagine it's rough advocating against 650b these days. Add in that he helped bring 650b back in the first place, and geez. I can only imagine he has a lot of feelings going on.

Agree with all you've said, but in this context it's quite understandable for any prospective buyer to assume Boulder likes building 650B bikes for wider tires. They were offering these early on in the 650B revival both in their Boulder and their R.Herse lines, participated in making 650B tires more available and better, and have been allied with Jan in the R.Herse line. Most of the Boulder bikes I see photos of here or on Flickr are 650B wide tire bikes. Anyone calling to order a Boulder 650B would have been surprised to hear the Boulder designer trying to talk them out of it just because a lot of their riding would be on pavement. I was surprised to read his comments on CR back in early November, though in general not really surprised to find CR backlash against wide tires that don't fit in Masi frames, and may have affected (or seemed to affect) overall N.American niche interest in vintage narrow-tired racing steel.  From his comments, it sounds like Mike regrets his role in building interest in 650B, how big the 650B thing has become in this tiny niche, and how it eclipsed 700C interest at least reckoning from his prospective customers on the phone. I can't blame anyone for getting tired of having the same conversation over and over on the phone, and builders and bike-designers routinely say the phone aspect of the business is the most tedious part of it, even those who are patient and good on the phone. That's why I've always tried to minimize my expectations there with builders. 

For the record, Mike was great in working with me on a 2015 two-bike order from Boulder (both 650B skinny tube lugged custom bikes) and the bike has become my favorite by far. I still take out my light gauge classic racing bikes with narrow tires, just for comparison if nothing else, and I never feel I'm faster on the narrow 700C, nice as the bikes are to ride, and never feel slower when back on 584x42 EL. I'm out of the saddle a lot for accelerations and during climbs, and although I can see and feel the BSPs deforming more than a narrow tire when I stand, that has never seemed like a bad thing, and certainly doesn't seem slower. 

Also for the record in this discussion in general, Jan's BQ research testing did not conclude 42mm tires are just as fast as narrow 700C tires on pavement. It concluded that wider tires are faster than narrower tires up to about 26 or 27mm wide (assuming supple casings for both, etc.). Secondarily, it found that as tires got wider they didn't go appreciably slower up to the 42mm that was their testing limit at the time. He published the numbers and some graphics that show small decreases in speed in the wider tires, and concluded that they were small enough to be hard to notice riding. (The speed difference that might be hard to accurately notice while riding--the feel difference would be very easy to notice whether you like it or dislike it.) Jan has also consistently pointed to his conclusions as having most relevance at rando speeds and below, and explained why rolling resistance is more critical to riders who have much lower average speed than a pro racing peloton. 

Here's hoping Mike wants to make some more 650B bikes some day,

Mitch

in Utah

[Max]

Good looking bike, Mitch, and a good summary. 

I'll pontificate, too.... As our paved road quality deteriorates and drivers become increasingly distracted, the local dirt loops are becoming more and more popular. I now see more folks running 40-50 mm tires to clear the potholes and fenders to keep the dirt off their backs and drivetrain. For smaller than 56 cm frames, the 650b implementation of that just makes more sense than 700c. 

I ride 58-60 frames, so I could easily go 650b or 700c. In fact, I've got two bikes set up nearly identically, one a 650b and one 700c. The differences in speed that I've seen in my riding was mostly attributable to the different mindset and purpose I bring to a ride. I used to race, so 700c is for going fast, just mentally for me, just like having a drop-bar on a bike means (again, to me) that it's got to have clipless pedals or toe-clips. A swept-back bar's got to coordinate with platform pedals, didn't you know? :-P

Anyhow, I ride in MI, where sloppy conditions are far from rare. There's huge appeal for fenders in Seattle and Portland. But in locales where it's dry most of the time and few riders run fenders, or they ride paved roads, or they want to keep up with pals on testosterone-fueled club rides, or want to get the bike to 17 lbs or less, etc. -- well, there I can see how showing up in "breeks" and platform pedals is a stylistic faux-pas, so mentally, a 700c implementation with a drop bar and clipless pedals is the "uniform", along with the mindset. 

- Max "change your mind, the rest will follow" in A2

[earlethomas]

A hearty thumbs up to that last sentiment, Mitch, I'm hoping so too...

Love the bike, thanks for the share,

thomas

On Saturday, December 1, 2018 at 6:00:24 AM UTC-5, mitch....@gmail.com wrote:

[Randall Daniels]

Here's the direct link to his post:

https://groups.google.com/d/msg/classic-rendezvous-lightweight-vintage-bicycles/nu50NjCBdjk/u7SaomhwBQAJ

I agree with his all his points. I was perplexed when my switch to 650bx42 precipitated a direct decrease in speed over both short and long segments but I chalked it up to seasonal change (this was Sept/Oct a few years ago) and declining fitness. All the BQ tests I was reading told me the tires were as fast or faster than 700c racing tires. When spring rolled around and I started getting beat in sprints and missing bridges during group rides I started getting frustrated and switched back to 700c - suddenly I was much faster and back in my normal place in the group ride hierarchy. 

Jan gets an unfair share of the blame, the bicycle rolling resistance test website and Josh Poertner from Silca have probably had as much influence for the more modern normcore population of riders tired of road racing bicycle analogues pressed into riding on open American roads. I've had more than one conversation about how the 60mm G-One cannot be as fast as a 25mm racing tire - despite what BRR says. 

Wide, supple tires have been a boon for my personal cycling enjoyment but that's mainly because I've learned to decouple fast from fun and moved towards a more mixed terrain riding style. As more and more people try out the wider tires there'll be an inevitable correction - it might not be founded on repeatable, regressible data testing done with small sample sizes but enough riders will figure out that if they've ridden up the same hill a couple hundred time and all the sudden their new wheels and tires are x seconds slower or they go a whole season without setting a PR, something's up. 

I find it absolutely fascinating that one of the major players for randonneuring bikes has essentially shut down due to stress from customer wheel size consternation. I feel empathy for Mr. Kone, but that's amazing.

Randy 

Atlanta, GA

On Sunday, November 25, 2018 at 12:58:19 PM UTC-5, Reed Kennedy wrote:

Mike Kone posted this strongly worded opinion piece over on Classic Rendezvous on November 9th of this year:

"The fake news bike media insists there is no performance loss when using wide tires such as 42mm or more - that is a crock. And I admit to complicity in promoting wide tires. For sure, bikes that see a lot of dirt, (or intended for use on exceptionally long rides), the comfort and stability gain of the wide tires is significant and may be the decider. But to argue that there is no performance loss, especially when climbing out of the saddle where there is more hysteresis loss, is without basis (show me some real statistics, not some exercise in confirmation bias with a sample size of N=3). It became so overwhelming trying to explain why 700c might still be the best choice for some people's rando bikes, that I put the Boulder Bicycle program on hold. I was having the same conversation with different folks every week and it was exhausting."

Bold at the end mine. Whatever you think of the rest, it does confirm that Mike still considers Boulder Bikes "on hold" as of earlier this month.

Best,

Reed

On Sat, Nov 24, 2018 at 3:58 PM Bob Lovejoy <boblo...@gmail.com> wrote:

Hi Thomas,

I think that note on the Boulder site has been up for quite awhile and actually refers to (at least) last January.   Whatever happened with Waterford, be it pricing, tubing availability or turnaround time seems to have really have had an effect on designers and resellers who used Waterford as a frame supplier.  I wish I knew more of the story, only because I am curious, but I don't.  Maybe someone else knows and will provide more information.

Bob

[etorg...@yahoo.com]

This is great; we have a significant difference of opinion regarding the performance change in going from narrow 700 to moderate width (38-42mm?) 650b on relatively smooth roads when climbing, some or all of which may be out of the saddle.

You can see I am pretty close to writing down the null hypothesis here.

The debate emerges not only from 70s thinking being (re)challenged in the present day, not only from some postulated scientific arguments regarding suspension losses climbing, and not only from a conflict of expert opinion, but also from the qualitatitive, and perhaps semi quantitative impressions of this community.

The question then is...who is willing to take on this experiment? Who, if not this group?

I guarantee you would be published, scorned, and celebrated, no matter the outcome.

Eli
In Albuquerque

[Ryan Watson]

I definitely got faster when I went from skinny (25mm +/-) 700c to 38-42mm 650B.

Perhaps my 650B frames (which included a Boulder All-Road) planed better than my previous bikes?
Perhaps I just got in better shape because riding became even more enjoyable?
Perhaps I put more effort into finding the best tires?
Or maybe they really are faster?

I suspect the answer is "all of the above"

Even if you could scientifically prove than skinny 700c is faster and paid for me to "upgrade" all my bikes, I wouldn't go back. There is simply zero downside to wide tires for me.

If Eli's experiment involves me having to ride skinny tires again, count me out!

Ryan, also in snowy Albuquerque :-)

[Steve Palincsar]

This doesn't have to be an either/or proposition.  Even if there may be
roads where the 700C might be superior, I'm confident there are also
going to be roads where the 38-42mm tire will be better. So why not have
both?  Pick and choose based on where you're riding.  That's what I do.

Now as to whether there's a definitive holds-true-for-all-riders answer,
maybe not.  I think there's a world of difference between bikes with
32mm tires and those with 23-28mm -- and yes, I'll group them that way:
to me, the 28 is the end-point of the "narrow" range, not the start of
the "medium-wide".  I imagine it's likely that for someone weighing
40-50% less, that 28 mm tire could feel to them the way a 42mm tire does
to me.

Regardless, I'm thrilled to see 32mm back on "normal road bikes".  When
I came into it, 27 x 1 1/4" -- 32mm -- was the "normal" road tire.  I
saw the transition to 1 1/8", but frankly was shocked in 1991 (when I
ordered a custom Ti bike from Tom Kellogg) to see that 23mm had become
the norm.  I felt like Rip Van Winkle: they held a plebiscite on tire
width and I slept right through it.   Sure, I needed 120 psi with 23mm,
and I even let them convince me it was a "normal" thing to do.

Times have definitely changed for the better (and saner).

On 12/2/18 11:17 AM, 'Ryan Watson' via 650b wrote:
> I definitely got faster when I went from skinny (25mm +/-) 700c to 38-42mm 650B.
>
> Perhaps my 650B frames (which included a Boulder All-Road) planed better than my previous bikes?
> Perhaps I just got in better shape because riding became even more enjoyable?
> Perhaps I put more effort into finding the best tires?
> Or maybe they really are faster?
>
> I suspect the answer is "all of the above"
>
> Even if you could scientifically prove than skinny 700c is faster and paid for me to "upgrade" all my bikes, I wouldn't go back. There is simply zero downside to wide tires for me.
>
> If Eli's experiment involves me having to ride skinny tires again, count me out!
>
> Ryan, also in snowy Albuquerque :-)
>
>
>> On Dec 2, 2018, at 08:27, etorgesonus via 650b <65...@googlegroups.com> wrote:
>>
>> This is great; we have a significant difference of opinion regarding the performance change in going from narrow 700 to moderate width (38-42mm?) 650b on relatively smooth roads when climbing, some or all of which may be out of the saddle.
>>
>> You can see I am pretty close to writing down the null hypothesis here.
>>
>> The debate emerges not only from 70s thinking being (re)challenged in the present day, not only from some postulated scientific arguments regarding suspension losses climbing, and not only from a conflict of expert opinion, but also from the qualitatitive, and perhaps semi quantitative impressions of this community.
>>
>> The question then is...who is willing to take on this experiment? Who, if not this group?
>>
>> I guarantee you would be published, scorned, and celebrated, no matter the outcome.
>>
>> Eli
>> In Albuquerque
>>
--

[Randall Daniels]

Just to be clear I'm not limiting myself to climbing, flat riding is/was slower as well. It's the first place I noticed the loss of speed. I went from 700x25 to 650bx42 and then 650bx47. Slower on smooth to moderate pavement and smooth dirt.

Randy 

Atlanta, GA

[David Parsons]

On Sunday, December 2, 2018 at 7:27:51 AM UTC-8, etorg...@yahoo.com wrote:

This is great; we have a significant difference of opinion regarding the performance change in going from narrow 700 to moderate width (38-42mm?) 650b on relatively smooth roads when climbing, some or all of which may be out of the saddle.

You don't even need to go to 700c to test narrow tires.  There's a tiny selection of sub-30 tires available for 650b, and it's possible to compare their speed to wider tires on the same bicycle: for example, on my bicycles 650x25 Schwalbe Ones are slightly faster than 650x33 Confreries & 650x38 flat magnets on hard-surfaced and smooth dirt roads, but slower on gravel.   Since a small but significant amount of my riding is on gravel I tend to stick with Confreries, but if I was chasing speed on brevets I'd switch back to Ones like a shot.

-david parsons

[Stephen Poole]

Interesting...

I haven't tried anything in 650b narrower than the nominally 38mm Écureuil ELs (240g and ~36.5mm on PL23s), but they have been both faster and more comfortable than Hetres and Soma GLs on smooth tar, and especially on chipseal. On dirt I suspect results will vary depending on how rough things are, still I doubt they're much, if any, slower than better 700c tyres, but are much, much more comfortable when things aren't dead smooth.

However, I have lots of mileage on narrower 700c tyres, from 18mm (ouch!) up to ~28mm. IMHO, anything narrower than 25mm or so is just making things less comfortable, though they may be more aero on narrower rims.

Differences in tyre weight can be felt, with perhaps the fastest tyres on climbs being some old ~20mm Mitsuboshis with very light casings; they flatted easily though. ~23-28mm has been where most of the better quality tyres have been available, and even pro cyclists seem to be running 25+mm now. Rims have got wider, and Conti are offering up to 32mm in their new GP5000.

A question for those who've tried 30-32mm 650b tyres: Are these noticeably more comfortable than 28-622 on firmer (but not necessarily smoother) surfaces?

Thanks,

Stephen

[Lee Legrand]

That is a good point you bring up Stephen and should be reiterated that you do not have to get 700c bicycles to experience narrow speeds tires (not practical).  Just buy whats available with lower width 650B tires.  I am sure if another test is confirmed to be the case that narrow 650B tires (assuming 35 mm) is equivalent to narrow 700c narrow tires for speed tires suppliers will make it available in the market.

--

[Chris Cullum]

On Sun, Dec 2, 2018, 16:28 Stephen Poole <nsc.e...@gmail.com wrote:

Interesting...

I haven't tried anything in 650b narrower than the nominally 38mm Écureuil ELs (240g and ~36.5mm on PL23s), but they have been both faster and more comfortable than Hetres and Soma GLs on smooth tar, and especially on chipseal. On dirt I suspect results will vary depending on how rough things are, still I doubt they're much, if any, slower than better 700c tyres, but are much, much more comfortable when things aren't dead smooth.

However, I have lots of mileage on narrower 700c tyres, from 18mm (ouch!) up to ~28mm. IMHO, anything narrower than 25mm or so is just making things less comfortable, though they may be more aero on narrower rims.

The most aero wheels these days use rims that are wider at their widest point than the tires. Rims are toroidal shaped with the tire tucked in the the airflow behind the rim. At some point there has to be an aero penalty for wide tires. At that point it would be a trade-off between speed and comfort. I'm not sure where the cross over is. It would depend on road surface. I don't think rim diameter has much bearing in this case, all things being equal. The 700c and 650b are close enough to not make much difference other than actual differences in tires. We know that rolling resistance goes down with width (up to a point, where is that point?), there is hysterical losses somewhere in there (how large, at what width?) and then aero drag (again, no firm data there). There's weight too but generally in terms of speed it's far less of a time penalty than people assume with rolling resistance and aero much more important as long as we're talking about grams not multiple kgs.

[David Parsons]

On Sunday, December 2, 2018 at 4:28:54 PM UTC-8, satanas wrote:

A question for those who've tried 30-32mm 650b tyres: Are these noticeably more comfortable than 28-622 on firmer (but not necessarily smoother) surfaces?

The Confrerie is nominally 32mm, but on my machines it measures 33-34mm.   More comfortable that 700x28c ?   It depends; /tubeless/ Confreries are in the same ballpark as the Resist Nomad 28 (an /excellent/ t(i|y)re and the first one I ever rode that was actually good on gravel!) and much better than various armoured/puncture resistant 28s I've ridden.   I don't know if there are any others marketed as 30-32mm, but in the department of slightly narrower tires, GB had one that I think was 29mm, but which had a dead ride feel and the sort of distressing feel of having the bicycle sliding sideways off the tread when the pressure got low, and Ritchey has a 28mm Tom Slick that is apparently puncture resistant but channels the mighty banana slug in the process.

-david parsons

[Stephen Poole]

Thanks David - I was wondering about those GB Cypres. Schwalbe make a 30mm G-One Speed (Performance, not Evolution) but it weighs 320g, versus 240g for the Écureuil, and I imagine the casing is stiffer. There's 25+28-584 Conti GP5000s too, or should be soon; it's a pity they aren't offering something wider.

@ Chris: As far as I know, nobody is making a dimpled and/or toroidal aero rim/wheel that will be wider than a quite narrow tyre, though there are plenty of fancy carbon gravel wheels out there. Josh Poertner from Silca has said that ideally the rim should be 105% of the tyre width, which means typically a 25-28mm tyre section is the limit. Wider, deeper section (or Kamm tail?) rims with fewer spokes are probably more aero even with wide tyres, but this might not have been tested seriously; wider rims and tyres are typically MTB items, so grip, impact resistance and no-burps probably matter more there. (And the rando/BQ market isn't predisposed to buy aero or carbon anything.)

Later,

Stephen

[David Parsons]

On Sunday, December 2, 2018 at 6:06:27 PM UTC-8, satanas wrote:

Thanks David - I was wondering about those GB Cypres. Schwalbe make a 30mm G-One Speed (Performance, not Evolution) but it weighs 320g, versus 240g for the Écureuil, and I imagine the casing is stiffer.

If it's at all like the 38mm G-One, it's a bit stiffer (at least a bit stiffer than a flat magnet) but I wonder if the weight increase is more because of all the little nubs on the tread?    I'd not consider the G-One to be a good comparison to a road slick or semi-slick, because those little nubs generate a noticable amount of road buzz.

-david parsons

[etorg...@yahoo.com]

Hi Stephen.
I do not have the same experience with the GB Cypres tire. I have used both the wire and the kevlar bead, and I thought they were comfy if not extraordinary, but a big step up from either my 700c 28mm Hutchinson Sectors (which I think ride as if they are too hard or flat) or my 25mm IRC Roadlite, which is better but still not great. My best feeling and I think? fastest 700c tires have been my Deda Giro di Italia's or Corsas, both of which are narrow. I rode the Cypres tires for 500 miles of training and competed in Crusher in the Tushar and other gravel races. If I could have fit a wider rear tire, then I would have, and maybe the magic of the bike made it hard to detect tire deficiencies, but I liked that tire just fine. I also remember there being a construction change in the Gran Bois tires 10 years back. Is it possible I have ridden the green labels, and the others were....Black label? (Am I confusing Whiskey with Tires?). The other ones were noticably inferior I recall.

David, I don't think you can conclude that narrower is faster because your skinny Schwalbe ones are faster than wider Confreries. Wasn't that the original objective of Jan's tests: to compare different tires? Maybe I misunderstand the comparison, but you need the same casing in two different widths to make a meaningful comparison.

Eli
In Albuquerque

[David Parsons]

On Sunday, December 2, 2018 at 7:05:32 PM UTC-8, etorg...@yahoo.com wrote:

 

David, I don't think you can conclude that narrower is faster because your skinny Schwalbe ones are faster than wider Confreries. Wasn't that the original objective of Jan's tests: to compare different tires?  Maybe I misunderstand the comparison, but you need the same casing in two different widths to make a meaningful comparison.

I don't know what the details on the casings are for each of those tires, but the Ones are stiffer than Confreries (and MUCH stiffer than a flat magnet) are.   So ¯\_(ツ)_/¯; until I win the lottery and can pay for runs of Resist Nomads in 650x28, 35, and 45, I have to compare what I can get and find comfortable to ride in all of those sizes.

-david parsons

[Stephen Poole]

Thanks Eli,

The GB Cypres comes in both standard and EL casings IIRC, and I'd be surprised if the ELs were slow, based on the Écureuils; maybe David had the standard casing?

Re G-Ones: I have a 70-584 Allround and a 60-584 Speed (both Evo), and the S has more of a textured surface, as opposed to small knobs on the A; the casing seems a bit suppler too, both inder the tread and in the sidewalls. They seem quite different, but I haven't ridden them yet.

Later,

Stephen

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[Steve Chan]

On Sun, Dec 2, 2018 at 1:48 AM Randall Daniels <randal...@gmail.com> wrote:

Here's the direct link to his post:

https://groups.google.com/d/msg/classic-rendezvous-lightweight-vintage-bicycles/nu50NjCBdjk/u7SaomhwBQAJ

I agree with his all his points. I was perplexed when my switch to 650bx42 precipitated a direct decrease in speed over both short and long segments but I chalked it up to seasonal change (this was Sept/Oct a few years ago) and declining fitness. All the BQ tests I was reading told me the tires were as fast or faster than 700c racing tires. When spring rolled around and I started getting beat in sprints and missing bridges during group rides I started getting frustrated and switched back to 700c - suddenly I was much faster and back in my normal place in the group ride hierarchy. 

   Didn't JP Weigle like to ride the 38mm Pari-Motos more than Hetre ELs and BSP? Maybe a tire like the Pari Moto is about as heavy as you can get away with in a 650B and still keep the same kind of speed and feel as a nice 700c tire?

[David Parsons]

On Sunday, December 2, 2018 at 9:13:45 PM UTC-8, satanas wrote:

Thanks Eli,

The GB Cypres comes in both standard and EL casings IIRC, and I'd be surprised if the ELs were slow, based on the Écureuils; maybe David had the standard casing?

   Oh, I definitely tried a set with the standard casing.  But I don't know if the EL casing would make them feel much better; they might not feel so dead, but the "sliding sideways off the tread" feel would, if anything, feel worse. 

  -david parsons

[Stephen Poole]

IME, the EL casing feels much better, especially on high frequency stuff like chip seal. I don't understand the steering issues; I've had none with Hetres or Écureuils, but plenty with the more-or-less slick Soma GLs - those were diabolical. :-(

Later,

Stephen

--

[Randall Daniels]

The Pari Moto is a ludicrously thin tire, the tread + casing combined is 1.5mm. Something like the GP4000SII is 3.25mm and the Hetres ~4.0mm+ depending on how you consider the tread.

They felt a little faster than Hetres/BSP but they overlapped enough that I didn't see any difference in speed on pavement. Definitely slower on rough gravel and dirt. I only rode my set for about a month, the front bead failed early and after equivocating about the thinness of the tires for a little while I sold the remaining pair I had been riding and went back to Hetres. To be able to see any difference I think the change in tire width/height needs to be at least 20% (assuming same construction/suppleness). But I think that's missing the point, at the right pressure Hetres and BSPs feel just like a good 700cx25 racing clincher and even better once it gets rough. The issue is that, for whatever reason, they're just not as fast on pavement.

I will also add that roads in parts of Georgia I ride, to include quite a lot of the low-traffic country roads, are in a much better state than they were 5 years ago. There's been a huge amount of new paving and whatever asphalt technology they're using puts it down like glass, it's quite incredible. 

[Steve Palincsar]

That's not what he said in the BQ article about his trip to Japan with the screaming yellow bike -- that started them thinking about the CdM --  which he described as a "hot rod" and that Jan said "felt like a racing bike".  It had 38mm BSPs.

[Steve Palincsar]

Sorry - those Compass "Pass" names - the 650Bx38mm version is called the Loup Loup Pass.

[p k]

I believe for the Concourse JP built a 650bx38 bike. His flashy neon yellow/green bike was also 650bx38. I think it's safe to assume he likes the 650bx38 format, and doesn't feel 42s are quite necessary. Jan also compared his neon yellow bike to this mule. He said JP's bike felt like a comfortable and refined race machine that tells you to keep going, while his mule felt more like a fast touring bike with a stately ride.

On Monday, December 3, 2018 at 1:08:32 AM UTC-5, Steve Chan wrote:

[Steve Palincsar]

On 12/3/18 9:02 AM, p k wrote:

I believe for the Concourse JP built a 650bx38 bike.

Yes, the BQ article on the CdM discusses his thought process:  the tires are lighter and Jan is easy on wheels.

His flashy neon yellow/green bike was also 650bx38. I think it's safe to assume he likes the 650bx38 format, and doesn't feel 42s are quite necessary.

Not entirely accurate.  As you'll see in his Flickr photostream, although he had 38mm LLPs on his current rider ("Shrinko") at the Classic Rendezvous weekend and during most of the summer, he switched to 42mm BSPs for the Deerfield Dirt Road Randonnee and the Nutmeg Noreaster, both of which feature rough gravel roads.

Jan also compared his neon yellow bike to this mule. He said JP's bike felt like a comfortable and refined race machine that tells you to keep going, while his mule felt more like a fast touring bike with a stately ride.

On Monday, December 3, 2018 at 1:08:32 AM UTC-5, Steve Chan wrote:

On Sun, Dec 2, 2018 at 1:48 AM Randall Daniels <randal...@gmail.com> wrote:

Here's the direct link to his post:

https://groups.google.com/d/msg/classic-rendezvous-lightweight-vintage-bicycles/nu50NjCBdjk/u7SaomhwBQAJ

I agree with his all his points. I was perplexed when my switch to 650bx42 precipitated a direct decrease in speed over both short and long segments but I chalked it up to seasonal change (this was Sept/Oct a few years ago) and declining fitness. All the BQ tests I was reading told me the tires were as fast or faster than 700c racing tires. When spring rolled around and I started getting beat in sprints and missing bridges during group rides I started getting frustrated and switched back to 700c - suddenly I was much faster and back in my normal place in the group ride hierarchy. 

   Didn't JP Weigle like to ride the 38mm Pari-Motos more than Hetre ELs and BSP? Maybe a tire like the Pari Moto is about as heavy as you can get away with in a 650B and still keep the same kind of speed and feel as a nice 700c tire?

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[etorg...@yahoo.com]

Sorry I am a few posts behind....
The two Gran Bois I was thinking of were the White label and the Green Labels. There preceded any EL versions, and I think preceded JPs respirator shaved Hetres too.

Attached is Jan's original analysis. The White label is long discontinued so I am hoping this small reproduction of BQ is OK.

David's point about the different widths, however, is even more interesting as he is associating a stiffer casing with a faster tire. That is the reverse trend for Jan's reasoning, but goes very well with the idea of a slower tire emerging from suspension losses that are generated by the rider: mashing, climbing, or sprinting.

Stephen, I have a pair of the 38mm Écureuil ELs as well as Hetres ELs en route. I am excited to compare these two on and off road, including when the going gets rough. Were your impressions of the regular Hetres or Hetre ELs?

Eli, in Albuquerque

[Steve Chan]

On Mon, Dec 3, 2018 at 6:18 AM Steve Palincsar <pali...@his.com> wrote:

Yes, the BQ article on the CdM discusses his thought process:  the tires are lighter and Jan is easy on wheels.

His flashy neon yellow/green bike was also 650bx38. I think it's safe to assume he likes the 650bx38 format, and doesn't feel 42s are quite necessary.

Not entirely accurate.  As you'll see in his Flickr photostream, although he had 38mm LLPs on his current rider ("Shrinko") at the Classic Rendezvous weekend and during most of the summer, he switched to 42mm BSPs for the Deerfield Dirt Road Randonnee and the Nutmeg Noreaster, both of which feature rough gravel roads.

   I think this just supports the idea that for riding on mostly roads, JPW likes the 650x38 over other sizes (and I'm sure he can have whatever tire he wants - he could obviously make the bike to fit whatever tires he wants), but if things are mostly gravelly, he would go up one size.

   I wonder if JPW notices the hysteresis or the added inertia/momentum more? Its not his thing, but if it were the momentum, carbon rims and disc brakes could compensate for the additional mass of the tire.

[Steve Palincsar]

You're right, neither is his thing.  Of course, any owner could add wheels with carbon rims - even though they would look hideous, totally out of place - but I can't imagine him ever building a bike with disc brakes.

Incidentally, compared to the brakes he's using now (Rene Herse cantilevers) disc brakes would surely add a considerable amount of mass.

On 12/3/18 11:47 AM, Steve Chan wrote:

   I wonder if JPW notices the hysteresis or the added inertia/momentum more? Its not his thing, but if it were the momentum, carbon rims and disc brakes could compensate for the additional mass of the tire.

-- 
Steve Palincsar
Alexandria, Virginia 
USA

[Stephen Poole]

Carbon rims aren't necessarily lighter, but should be stiffer. The really light 650b rims are hookless, intended for very low pressure MTB use. There are few (if any) lightweight 650b rims compatible with non-disc brakes in any case. The lightest rims I'm aware of with a hook bead are Stans Crest MK3 (341g in 650b); I have some to build up soon. There are light 700c rims for narrower tyres.

Later,

Stephen

[David Parsons]

On Monday, December 3, 2018 at 3:00:02 PM UTC-8, satanas wrote:

Carbon rims aren't necessarily lighter, but should be stiffer. The really light 650b rims are hookless, intended for very low pressure MTB use. There are few (if any) lightweight 650b rims compatible with non-disc brakes in any case. The lightest rims I'm aware of with a hook bead are Stans Crest MK3 (341g in 650b)

The DT Swiss Xr 331 isn't far off that (355gm) and it has the decided advantage of being rated for higher pressure tires.   (I have a pair of Stans Ztr 355 -- 50psi absolute max pressure -- and they really aren't good for anything other than paved roads and smooth dirt.)

-david parsons

[Stephen Poole]

The XR 361 is perhaps a better comparison as it's i22.5/390g versus the Crest's i23; the XR 331 is i20. The carbon rims with bead hooks from LB et al are a similar weight to the XR 361...

Later,

Stephen (who's easy on wheels, and is unlikely to exceed 50 psi)