Complete 650b Tire Spreadsheet Q3 2021

[randal...@gmail.com]

I made this a few weeks ago to compare how the new American Classic 650b models stacked up wrt to weight. Finally got around to cleaning it up and making it worthwhile to share. This is a listing of every in production 650b road/all-road tire I could find, with weight, size, and tread description. Also includes a couple honorary MTB tires like the Thunder Burt. Comment if there's anything you think should be added or if you see any errors. Thanks for checking it out.

Google Sheets Link

Randy Daniels

Atlanta, GA

[ThermionicScott]

Very nice, I like when people compile all the options that are out there.

One correction:  the Panaracer Col de la Vie is often listed as weighing 500g, but the 2022 Panaracer catalog puts the 650B version at 400g even.  (This is roughly what my 650*A* Col de la Vies weigh, so I've always wondered how/why the 650B version would weigh 100g more!)

HTH,

- Scott

[Andy G]

Add it to the list of other sheets!

Tyre Actual Measurements https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1dyYRfhNdFUIbeF1BiQpMyQnhbepy6nxK9DDgd7BhYSk/edit#gid=0

584/650B/27.5 tires https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Ov1A4hPz0wM2rzRso9HVoQEu7ElxM_8YsI-VOoBukMI/edit#gid=0

650B Tires Outer Diameter https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1CLk7d2owTdj8ETTA20tfUc7hTwq5nLbp-qDG9DKWz-U/edit#gid=0

Andy in NH

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[Brad]

You might add the Serfas Drifter  https://www.brandscycle.com/product/serfas-drifter-city-27.5-inch-tire-392790-1.htm?variations=1473591,1473447&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIvtHQ7Mas8wIVSMvICh1YlANkEAQYASABEgLSQPD_BwE

[Harry Travis]

After you've done so much valuable work,I'd request easy formatting changes to make it more usable: narrowest possible columns, redundant data to the far right (eg. 2nd size spec)

Because it is hard to hide columns and keep them necessary model label on same screen.

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Harry P Travis

15.0

On Oct 2, 2021, at 1:24 PM, Brad <riendeau...@gmail.com> wrote:



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[randal...@gmail.com]

Thanks for the notes everyone, I've updated the weight and size description for the Col de la Vie and added the Serfas Drifter and Drifter CTR sizes. I also changed the formatting slightly to make it easier to see the most interesting bits first. Keeping size/etrto together since some brands appear to be adopting the 1990s designating style of having the casing width provided by the 650b "size" and the ETRTO providing the actual knob width. The new American Classic tires are like this, my examples are 47-48mm at the casing and 50-51mm at the knobs. I'll be adding new models from time to time so feel free to drop a note if there are more tires you want me to add.

[satanas]

Conti have just announced new 30/32mm 650b tubeless tyres (280/300g) which are officially compatible with hookless rims up to i25 (max. 73 PSI):

https://bikerumor.com/2021/10/04/faster-lighter-continental-gran-prix-5000-s-tr-brings-tubeless-to-the-races/

These should be really useful, filling a significant gap between the previous 25 & 28mm tyres and the plethora of 38+mm options.

Availability is said to be this month, but we'll see.

Later,

Stephen

[ThermionicScott]

Somewhat tangentially, I dig your commitment to the terms "balloon" and "demi-balloon".  It's classy, and I'm thinking about adopting it when referring to the 650B bikes in our household.

Was there a related term for the skinnier tires (28-32mm) that survived longest when 650B originally fell out of favor?  (Attempting to tie my tangent into Stephen's part of the discussion...)

Thanks,

- Scott in Cedar Rapids

[randal...@gmail.com]

I started using the terms after seeing them in Fred Blasdel's posts which really motivated me to try 650b and low-trail. In the dark dusty corner of my memory I maybe recall BQ mentioned the terms when they did their issue with historical wheel/tire size rundown several years ago. I think the narrower tires were called "middleweight" but I'd need to dig into my back issues to be sure. I like the terms myself, in real life people sort of intrinsically know what they mean when they first hear them - especially when I was riding a bike with a 650bx48 slick in the front and a 650bx38 slick in the rear so there was an instant example they could see. 

I'll have to add the Continental releases to the list, there are also apparently some new sizes/models from Panaracer coming so things are still exciting in the 650b world.

Randy Daniels

Atlanta, GA

[jemima]

You might be interested in listing the 27.5 Kenda Sabre Pro TR widths and weights. 

Another low-knob like the ThunderBurt so I suppose it could be put in the all-road category. 

Have a 2.4" TR incoming to try in the fork. Hopefully it is as supple and good rolling out front as it looks. 

[ericni...@gmail.com]

Thanks Randy that is super helpful.

I was curious about width vs. weight, so added a column showing the nominal width as a number, so it could be plotted. Here's a plot of nominal width vs. weight.  The trendline can be thought of as sort-of an average weight for a given tire width.  Tires above that line are heavier than average (and potentially more durable, slower rolling, etc.), tires below the line are lighter (and potentially more supple, faster rolling, etc.). 

Would be happy to share this modified spreadsheet back to you.

Eric in NH 

[randal...@gmail.com]

Good catch - it comes in 27.5x2.05 / 52-584 so it would be a good knobbie option under fenders, it's also only 490 grams which is great. I'm poking around in the XC tires now so I will add the Kenda and a few others that are in the same style. Thanks for the note.

Randy Daniels

Atlanta, GA

On Friday, October 8, 2021 at 3:42:40 AM UTC-4 jemima wrote:

[randal...@gmail.com]

I would be interested to see, if you're willing to share. The American Classic tires, which inspired me to complete the listing, have thrown me for a loop. They're very heavy, with thick sidewalls, but seem to roll fast and are reasonably supple - PSI to sag 20% is about the same as GravelKings. 

Randy Daniels

Atlanta, GA

[jemima]

Back again with a stupid-light suggestion: Maxxis Maxxlite [One70] 27.5. Around 330gm or so.  

The one I measured came up around 49mm on a 22mmInner rim.  

Most supple tyre I have ever been on. So supple, you need to have the pressure up a bit from where you'd normally set it.  
Good thing is, at higher pressures, because of its suppleness the hits still get absorbed.  

Due to the grip pattern, ideally you want to limit running it in the dry across packed-dirt offroad.  

Any loose surfaces and things start getting sketchy out front. 

On Saturday, 2 October 2021 at 00:16:49 UTC+8 randal...@gmail.com wrote:

[satanas]

I'd be wary about the Maxxlites. I had the 26" version which came in at 43mm across the casing on a Mavic 231 rim (~i18-19mm), and while it was light and fast - when inflated - it suffered from a truly incredible number of flats, both from pointy things and from impact punctures. On a totally dry, smooth course with no rocks (or pebbles) it might be okay, but I flatted in almost every event where I used it. IME something with both more volume and more puncture resistance is much more useful off-road. On the road an Écureil is significantly lighter and I'd say at least as comfortable on chip seal, but it's hard to compare as the Maxxlite was on MTBs and the Écureil was on a steel rando bike.

There's an old saying, IIRC from Formula 1: "First you have to finish, before you finish first." An inflated tyre - even a Marathon Plus - is much faster than any flat tyre, no matter how light or supple.  :-(

Later,

Stephen

[jemima]

Measured a new 27.5x2.0 InnovaPro CobraSkin Superlight today on a 20mmInner. 
Waay undersize at 42.5mm. 382gm and 408gm.  

Could be a low-height tread option for someone. 

[Yellowsheep]

Hi Randy,

Thanks for sharing the list.  There is a Schwalbe Marathon Mondial tire in ETRTO 50-584 (27.5 x 2.00Inch) not listed.  It's a kevlar folding tire which measures closer to 48mm than 50mm.  Black sidewalls with reflective trim.  Weight is 780 grams.  It's not light or supple but the tire is very puncture resistant and the treads last a very long time.  This is the tire of choice for loaded RTW touring bikes.  Tread pattern below:

https://www.schwalbe.com/en/tour-reader/marathon-mondial

[Harry Travis]

The  47mm - 6% short of 2" - Gravel King tire is considered a fast tire with minimal tread. It weighs about 470g.

Any tire weighing 20% less is going to make it up the old fashioned way - for those who remember weight-weeniism of 1970-2000, when every fast tire for road bikes had to be at least 10g lighter than the most fastest and lightest. The casing and tread will be narrower.

23mm tires measured 20mm, and Specialized even dared a 28mm paint label on a Panaracer-made tire labeled 25mm in the mold. That 28mm tire mounts @ 23mm. 

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Harry P Travis

15.1

On Nov 26, 2021, at 10:03 PM, jemima <tanger...@gmail.com> wrote:

Measured a new 27.5x2.0 InnovaPro CobraSkin Superlight today on a 20mmInner. 

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[Stephen Poole]

The 48mm Gravel Kings are disproportionately  heavy compared with the 38 & 42mm versions, and stiffer too; there's not a lot of love for them online. At the other end, IME the 50mm (48mm actual on i23 rims) Schwalbe G-One Speed in Classic Skin were one of the two most easily punctured tyres I've ever had the misfortune to use; Hetres were way better.

The Mondials are decent, and should withstand most things, some Ladakhi thorn bushes excepted. They're not going to be light or supple, but for expedition touring those are non-issues; grip, wear and puncture-resistance are way more important IME. A bit more width (55-60mm) wouldn't hurt though...

Later,

Stephen

[randal...@gmail.com]

Modern manufacturers seem to favor cheating with shorter tires as often as they favor narrower tires. Everybody measures width now, almost nobody measures height. The nominally 700cx38mm gravelkings are between 38-42mm wide but are never going to be 38mm tall, often topping out at 35mm and even then only near max pressure. The tread, as you noted, is also very thin, 1.8mm at the thickest spots and 1.5mm at the thinnest. Of the half dozen or so I've used, I've worn the rear to the cords at between 1400 and 2200 miles, not a problem when they were 2/$73 but now that they're $45+ each I've sought other brands and styles. The 650b sizes are similar, my 650bx42 pair was 36mm tall, compared to Hetres at 41mm and BSPs at 40.5mm. And it's not just Panaracer, I just dumpstered some nominally 700cx37 WTB Riddlers that I was suffering unending pinch flats, I measured height and they were barely 30mm tall, useless. Turns out I am fairly skilled as eyeballing width, but terrible at height. These measurements are on generously wide rims, 22mm-25mm inside width.

Oddly enough I've got a pair of "700cx23" Schwinn Pro Circuit that measure 18mm wide (@125psi) but also measure 18mm tall, on 14mm inside width rims!

Thanks for everyone who posted additional tires, I'll add them shortly. The spreadsheet has already proved helpful in assisting a fellow rider looking for some mud tires after a wet and slippery gravel race last month. 

[Harry Travis]

Thanks for this.

I earlier meant my introduction of the Gravel King to be directed to the comment referring to an under-width tire that was suspiciously light.

You make a point differently that I've harped on over the years: We really should know the bead-to-bead width of tires but do not.  If the tire carcass is undersized, the circumference is also- by definition. Add for tread thickness and and more for knobs. 

Gravel Kings, Pacenti, and Soma tires

are all by Panaracer. In 38mm size, I cannot tell that the carcasses of different widths.

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Harry P Travis

15.1

On Nov 29, 2021, at 6:19 AM, randal...@gmail.com <randal...@gmail.com> wrote:

Modern manufacturers seem to favor cheating with shorter tires as often as they favor narrower tires. Everybody measures width now, almost nobody measures height. The nominally 700cx38mm gravelkings are between 38-42mm wide but are never going to be 38mm tall, often topping out at 35mm and even then only near max pressure. The tread, as you noted, is also very thin, 1.8mm at the thickest spots and 1.5mm at the thinnest. Of the half dozen or so I've used, I've worn the rear to the cords at between 1400 and 2200 miles, not a problem when they were 2/$73 but now that they're $45+ each I've sought other brands and styles. The 650b sizes are similar, my 650bx42 pair was 36mm tall, compared to Hetres at 41mm and BSPs at 40.5mm. And it's not just Panaracer, I just dumpstered some nominally 700cx37 WTB Riddlers that I was suffering unending pinch flats, I measured height and they were barely 30mm tall, useless. Turns out I am fairly skilled as eyeballing width, but terrible at height. These measurements are on generously wide rims, 22mm-25mm inside width.

Oddly enough I've got a pair of "700cx23" Schwinn Pro Circuit that measure 18mm wide (@125psi) but also measure 18mm tall, on 14mm inside width rims!

Thanks for everyone who posted additional tires, I'll add them shortly. The spreadsheet has already proved helpful in assisting a fellow rider looking for some mud tires after a wet and slippery gravel race last month. 

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[ThermionicScott]

Given that some amount of a clincher tire's cross-section is obscured below the top of the rim, I don't necessarily feel cheated when a tire's height is a bit less than its width.  Sometimes that's actually helpful when converting a tight 700C frame. :^)

I think for reasonably supple tires, the thickness of the tread cap is the only "lever" the tire makers have to control the height.  Maybe a focus on tire height might help encourage them not to go too thin, but I also wouldn't want them to turn all of our tires into Schwalbe SmartGuards or Soma Everwears!

- Scott