roller bearing feedback, IRD Power Ratchet 11s options

[Chuck Anderson]

First time caller, Chuck from Brooklyn.

Recently received he Lightning Bolt frame (canti version) I'd been obsessing over for weeks, and looking to firm up a few decisions about bits & pieces.

[a] Headset.  I'd figured this was an easy one, especially since I hadn't seen an opportunity to save much on eBay or CL - get IRD's double roller bearing model, done.  Then in an email conversation, Matt from Crust mentioned that he's not fond of the feel of roller bearings in headsets.  Well, I'm not Matt, but I also haven't to my knowledge ever steered a bike with one, and hadn't previously considered that I too might not be a huge fan.  "A tiny bit of friction?  Sounds absolutely fine if not a mild improvement; I don't need my bars to swivel as if on ice."  Roller bearing headsets weren't on my radar until I read 58% of the internet gathering info for this quest.

So... anyone else find the feel of these things objectionable?  Anyone think the mullet "rollers on bottom, balls on top" as sold by IRD and Riv feels better, and is a comparably effective talisman against the evil shimmer?  Which I've never experienced, but the image of this happening while barreling down a sketchy shoulder of a notably hilly upstate NY highway with trucks passing way too close and way too fast, in the pouring rain and with tricky crosswinds - well, that haunts me a bit.  And yes, if I were smarter I'd avoid sketchy highway shoulders; but if I haven't gotten smarter in my first fifty-two years there's probably little hope for the second.

[b] Shifters.  Not a huge brifter fan.  Enjoy the "direct gear access" (more commonly written on the 'net: "ability to dump the whole cassette") with bar ends or even, on my tourer's alt-bar, the much-reviled twist shifters vs the morse code of taps "upshift, upshift, upshift, upshift, upshift... ah, just right" but not going with either this time.  Have been tempted by downtube shifters, like the good ol' days - unambiguously the functionally and aesthetically cleanest option from the machine's perspective - but for this middle-aged rider of dubious skills and reflexes, the "sketchy, rainy, trucky highway shoulder" scenario rears its head again.  I'd rather not count on reacquiring the skill well enough to always keep a perfect line while reaching down to shift, with just the one hand on the bar.

Fascinated by Dia-Compe's reissue of the command shifter; but there's no way a pair of these *and* a Swift Ozette will fit inside the bars.  Should've gone with a space-saving TARDIS rando bag, doh!

So... Gevenalle's or IRD's brake-lever-barend-double-decker.  The former has indexed & friction options for 11s; silver "Audax" friction version with Dia-Compe levers looks much nicer to me.  Anyone know if IRD's lever will fit & work with anything (Dia-Compe, Microshift, Shimano DA?) supporting 11s?

James @ Analog kindly suggested the 9 speed DA shifter in friction mode + one of those pull modifiers works well with it, and that's an option... but seems both pricey and complicated (IRD lever + Shimano adapter platform + DA shifter + cable pull modifier) to arrive at the same functionality as Gev's Audax.  If I were certain of strongly preferring the ergonomics, maybe; but it's hard to find examples of both (or double-roller-bearing headsets) to conveniently test-drive right about now.

Thanks for any insight, and thanks also for the pearls of wisdom these last few weeks while I've been reading.

[Murray Watson]

I have a Stronglight roller in my bike and never loved it until a recent service, reface and ream, and now it feels imo as nice as a good cartridge bearing, seems they may be more effected by misalignment? Not sure why Matt doesn't like them, but considering the report of shimmy in BQ on that bike, I would put a roller in it to be on the safe side. The Miche ones are good and usually pretty easy to find on ebay.

On dumping the whole cassette, this is possible with the better Campag brifters, I think ultrashift are the ones to look for, avoid powershift - though not sure about newer 11s stuff.

Murray Watson - Bungendore, Australia

[David Parsons]

On Wednesday, April 22, 2020 at 4:09:43 PM UTC-7, Chuck Anderson wrote:

 

[b] Shifters.  Not a huge brifter fan.  Enjoy the "direct gear access" (more commonly written on the 'net: "ability to dump the whole cassette")

Use di2;  you can program it to dump gears if you lean on the shifter lever.

   -david parsons

[Josiah Anderson]

My Canti Lightning Bolt has a Stronglight A9, and I like the handling. I've never felt much difference in steering between needle bearings and ball bearings.

You probably don't want to listen to any shifter advice from me, because my Lightning Bolt has a homemade rod-operated front derailer and an Huret Duopar operated by a 1960s downtube shifter in back. That being said, I don't see any reason to run Shimano bar-ends in friction mode on brake lever mounts, if that's what you're saying. Why specifically choose an indexed shifter if you want friction? My experience with Shimano bar-ends in friction mode is that they don't work as smoothly or lightly as a friction-only shifter. Maybe the new Silver 2 shifters would be worth a look? They're probably cheaper than NOS Dura-ace.

Good luck with the build!

Josiah
Tacoma, WA

[Tony Pappalardo]

I've used both of those IRD headset and am completely happy with the double roller but wouldn't get another with the balls in the upper. I originally put the combo headset on, it was before the double was available, but not only couldn't it be adjusted snug enough to stop the bike from shimmy but the upper cup/adjustable race seemed to be made from some sort of chromed pot metal and the sweat from my knee resting upon it while stopped pitted the heck out of the chromed outer surface. It got ugly. The bearings were all in fine shape and I used the lower roller bearing to replace the lower bearing on another bike that was indexed. And it's been working fine in that bike.

When the double roller came out I grabbed one up and mounted it on the bike and it does everything that the other promised. It's been on the bike for maybe 8/10,000 miles and still looks like new. Aluminum, not some chromed pot metal, and I was able to snug it up enough to stop the shimmy. Yeah, it's snug when it's in the stand and the stiffness can be felt while walking the bike and steering by the stem, but it feels fine while riding. But then, I'm not really the sensitive type.

The single(lower) roller headset just doesn't seem to have the bearing surface area to tame shimmy, but the roller bearings do a fine job of standing up to brinelling. Like I said the double roller headset has 8-10,000 miles on it and the single(lower) roller headset the rest of the 26,000 miles the bike has seen, and all of those roller bearings on both headsets are in fine condition.

On a side note, be aware that the double roller headset has a taller stack height than the single roller set. It wasn't a problem for me because I had spacers that I was able to shorten up to fit the taller headset in.

I really like the idea of roller bearing headsets and don't understand why they fell out of favor.

[Jim Bronson]

I don't have a problem dumping the whole cassette with garden variety Shimano brifters, you can even do it while braking by slow pedaling slightly.

That said I went to bar ends because they are cheap and so am I.

-Jim

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[Benz Ouyang]

[a] My Atlantis has the Stronglight A9 with upper and lower roller bearings. I haven't really noticed any difference between that and its predecessor – a Tange Seki traditional "All Balls" headset. I will say that I had a stiff headset on another bike once, and the only impact I could sense was harder riding sans hands.

[b] It appears that you're going with drop bars. Have you considered thumb shifters? They make thumb shifters with clamps for even 31.8 handlebar diameters. Especially if you're putting a Swift Ozette out front, you may not want to have derailleur cables flopping about with older STIs, Gevenalles, or IRD Power Rachet levers.

[satanas]

Needle bearing headsets do have a bit more resistance to rotation (aka drag) than do well-adjusted ball or cartridge bearing headsets, but it's not IMHO an immense or objectionable difference; I have several, the oldest since 1982. Be aware though that if anything is not perfect the headset is likely to bind, so IMO it's essential to mill and face the head tube and crown race seat on the fork, and it's imperative(!) that the steerer is not bent. The latter shouldn't be a problem with a new, uncrashed frame.

Also bear in mind that while a needle bearing headset might resist shimmy slightly, it's not a panacea; shimmy can still happen. It may or may not, but the only way to tell how efficacious the headset might be here is to do A-B testing, not something anyone is likely to do, and even so only valid for that particular bike, setup and rider.

If you're really worried about shimmy, things other than the headset are more important, like frame geometry, tubing and alignment.

Later,
Stephen

[Eric Nichols]

I’ve used both IRD headsets, and like Tony, found the single RollerDive to have a much less durable surface finish, pitting and tarnishing in short order. The Double RollerDrive has a much nicer (and more durable) satin clear anodized finish. Worth the extra cost, in my opinion.

Both headsets will reduce the tendency for a low-trail bike to shimmy, in my experience. They do tend to index over time, more rapidly than most headsets it seems. Somewhere around 10k miles they get bad enough for me to replace. Others might be more or less sensitive to the indexing, and get longer or shorter service.

In contrast, I’ve had at least one Chris King headset that probably has >50k miles on it, outlasting multiple bikes. But the bearings are so smooth that it offers no resistance to shimmy. I’ve never tried giving a Chris King headset a higher preload to see if that works. In a recent article about his mule bike, Jan H implied that worked for him. I might have to give that a try someday, even though it feels like bearing abuse to this engineer.

Eric Nichols
Newfields NH

[satanas]

^ Some needle bearing headsets - including Stronglight, Miche and Primax - have separate stainless steel bearing surfaces both above and below the actual bearings, i.e., between these and the cups and cones; these SS parts move slightly in use. These headsets last indefinitely, in my experience, as long as they are regreased occasionally. I've owned and fitted many, and spare bearings plus the SS parts they bear against were available in kits, and may still be. I haven't needed any since 1982, but have some put away.

Other needle bearing headsets, made in Asia - not Europe - have the bearing surfaces integrated into the cups and cones, rather than being separate. These are heavier than the European brands due to some races being solid steel, and they can wear out or pit; I've always avoided these. On the plus side, there are fewer parts so they are easier for some people to understand.

Later,
Stephen

[Cary Weitzman]

Eric Nichols wrote:
> In contrast, I’ve had at least one Chris King headset that probably has>50k miles on it, outlasting multiple bikes. But the bearings are so smooth that it offers no resistance to shimmy. I’ve never tried giving a Chris King headset a higher preload to see if that works. In a recent article about his mule bike, Jan H implied that worked for him.

I've been playing with headset preload with my Canti Lightning Bolt and
an FSA Duron X cartridge bearing headset since I built it up a month ago.

Increasing the preload beyond where I think is correct does make a
noticeable difference in damping the front end.

Mind you, I've yet to have the bike shimmy (a size medium), but the
front end can feel a bit sketchy on fast downhills with a strong side
wind. More preload seems to have fixed that issue.

Got a couple of replacement bearings on order as I'm sure I'm reducing
the lifespan of the bearings, but that seems to me to be a reasonable
tradeoff.

Cary
PTBO.ON.CA

[Chuck Anderson]

Hey, wow, that's some tremendous feedback: thanks all!

I will proceed with a double roller headset, and will strongly consider sourcing a Miche or Stronglight. I don't question anyone's preferences - we can all be uncommonly sensitive to / picky about certain things - but good to hear roller bearings at least aren't a super common allergy.

Nice variety of suggestions on the shifting front. Knee-jerk reactions to some:

- Campagnolo's ultrashift looks pretty good ergonomically, but the big ol' bag occupying most of the space between the bars seems like it'd interfere with the broader movements to shift multiple cogs.
- Di2 is intriguing, but would blow my budget - I recently sold my old car and if I keep the bike costs around that total, it's easier to justify the project as obeying conservation of both vehicles and cash. Also ambivalent about adding that much tech: my adult reentry into the bicycle world was delayed for years as I enjoyed the zero-tech world of distance running. With a career in software, it's a nice escape to engage with the real world and with the relatively simple & direct two-wheeled machine. But cheap eTap without the very limited batteries (dyno, solar, wind, and/or kinetic powered?) would have a certain appeal, no doubt.
- "My Lightning Bolt has a homemade rod-operated front derailer and an Huret Duopar operated by a 1960s downtube shifter in back" sounds AWESOME, maybe something for me to aspire to in a future build which isn't my first. Or maybe the rod derailleur in front and solar eTap in back? :-)
- Grant closes his writeup of the "Silver2" with "These will shift up to 10 speeds and no more." Looking at http://blog.artscyclery.com/science-behind-the-magic/science-behind-the-magic-drivetrain-compatibility/ confirms that the "big 3" all require more cable pull for 11 than 10... though it's so close for Campagnolo, you'd just about think a hypothetical friction shifter with at least the 25.2mm of pull for 10s (2.8mm * 9 cog changes) *might* have that little bit extra in reserve for 11s's 26mm (2.6mm * 10).
- I had not considered thumb shifters, and have not previously used them. Wasn't aware folks use 'em on drop bars. Any drawbacks? Not sure they'd fit where the 21st century iteration of the command shifters wouldn't, unless mounted elsewhere (than just inside the brake levers).

I think the Gevenalle Audax unit has a pretty fair lead over the field at this point; one temporary drawback is they're out of stock and said to be shipping some time in May. I'm waiting at least a couple weeks on some other bits, so that's not a biggie unless May becomes July.

[alight]

I'd like to know more about the rod operated front derailleur. Is it a modified cable derailleur or completely homemade? Any photos of it? I have a bike with a single downtube shift mount and thinking about going 1x to a double. Rod shifted front sounds perfect.

Austin in Portland, OR

[satanas]

If you decide to get a Duopar (why?) you should avoid those with toothless jockey pulleys; these are much more likely to suddenly destroy themselves, and I'm unfortunately speaking from personal experience here. (I had it happen twice, and I'm careful and not normally hard on anything.) I'd strongly suggest instead using any index-compatible rear derailleur, all of which should shift better and be more durable than any Duopar. The Duopar was state of the art in 1978, but things have moved on since then.

Later,
Stephen

[Josiah Anderson]

Hi Austin,

Yes, it's a converted cable derailer, a Shimano 600 Tricolor (fd-6401). I removed the spring and bolted on an aluminum rod where the cable anchor normally is. I picked this derailer because it was bolted together rather than riveted, to facilitate spring removal, but it turns out that the pivot bolts all loosen now. I have to loctite them and check them regularly. 

Here are a couple of photos of the derailer on my Lightning Bolt: https://photos.app.goo.gl/ncANbDsRWUihgsCK6

I've done one other rod-operated derailer, a Suntour cx-5000 iirc. That one was riveted, so I just unhooked the spring and let it sit there, which was much better than the loosening bolts. I only replaced it because I was running a very narrow chainline and it didn't reach far enough inward. I might give it another try on the Lightning Bolt, which has a more standard chainline. 

The lever is a piece of a broken aluminum bottle cage with the end flattened and drilled, although pretty much anything should work as a lever. The right length will depend on the derailer you choose, chainline, number of chainrings, and probably some other things too, so a lot of trial and error. This whole thing is a pile of kludges, but it works surprisingly well. If you decide to try it, let me know how it turns out, because I haven't heard of anyone else with this setup. Good luck!

Josiah

Tacoma, WA

[Josiah Anderson]

I didn't, and wouldn't, recommend a Duopar to anyone else, but I think they shift great, look nice, and are durable enough for my own use. All of mine do have toothed pulleys, thankfully.  However, it might tell you something that even I, the crazy Duopar fan, have a Suntour rd on my most-abused bike.

Josiah

Tacoma, WA

[satanas]

After the second Duopar broke I replaced it with a Suntour VX-GT rather than risk getting stranded. That survived many thousands of km of touring without giving any trouble whatsoever, though downshifts did require a little more anticipation...

[Benz Ouyang]

On Friday, April 24, 2020 at 3:08:13 AM UTC+8, Chuck Anderson wrote:

 

- Campagnolo's ultrashift looks pretty good ergonomically, but the big ol' bag occupying most of the space between the bars seems like it'd interfere with the broader movements to shift multiple cogs.

The amount of space required to shift multiple cogs isn't much, as the throw per shift is modest. I have fairly narrow handlebars on one bike I use my Berthoud handlebar bag on. There's maybe a couple of inches of space between the hood and the handlebar bag, and that's enough space for the Ergopowers to operate without issue. The bag's not rigid anyway, if it comes to that. Actually, if you're worried about operating space, you really should reconsider the Gevenalle Audax, because that crossover shifter cable housing will make the handlebar top area way messy.

 

- Di2 is intriguing, but would blow my budget - I recently sold my old car and if I keep the bike costs around that total, it's easier to justify the project as obeying conservation of both vehicles and cash.  Also ambivalent about adding that much tech: my adult reentry into the bicycle world was delayed for years as I enjoyed the zero-tech world of distance running.  With a career in software, it's a nice escape to engage with the real world and with the relatively simple & direct two-wheeled machine.  But cheap eTap without the very limited batteries (dyno, solar, wind, and/or kinetic powered?) would have a certain appeal, no doubt.

I have eTAP on my S&S bike, and I'll caution against it if you're not the kind who keeps up on maintenance. The eTAP batteries are quite small and do not offer anywhere close to the amount of shifts as Di2 or EPS. However, since the batteries are identical and they probably won't both go out at the same time, in a pinch, you can switch the battery with energy to the derailleur you want to shift. The big advantage of eTAP is no wires except to brakes or auxiliary shift buttons. Di2 install is messy if your frame and associated parts (like handlebar) aren't made for it. Think of installing wired cyclocomputers, except now you have wires going everywhere.

- I had not considered thumb shifters, and have not previously used them.  Wasn't aware folks use 'em on drop bars.  Any drawbacks?  Not sure they'd fit where the 21st century iteration of the command shifters wouldn't, unless mounted elsewhere (than just inside the brake levers).

The thumb shifters are mounted on the drop bar "flats", next to the stem, like this. Advantages include cleaner cable management, and shifters in a convenience place for cruising about (i.e., not on the drops). They're also affordable, and you can get them in many speeds (or friction) and from many brands.

[Stephen Poole]

I was deliberately avoiding getting caught up in arguments about shifters, however, in 2015 I had Ergopower v3 levers, 3T Merckx bend bars of ~41.5cm c-c at the ends and ~40.5cm c-c at the hoods, and a GB22 bar bag. The main Ergopower paddles snagged in the bar bag pockets sometimes, and on one or two occasions got stuck there; reefing them out while riding wasn't IMHO fun. I wouldn't buy Ergos again as they caused me hand problems, but if you're thinking of using them, it would help to have 1) no side pockets, or 2) very high bars so paddles are well above the pockets, or 3) very wide bars if they're not so high up.

You have been warned...

Later,

Stephen

[Chuck Anderson]

Yeah, I expect to use bars with ~390mm c-c at the hoods, so that's more like 365 interior space.  The Ozette eats up 280 of that -> around 40mm / inch and a half on each side, less if I use the pockets.  And I can't rule out that the next size narrower bars might actually be a better fit for my build, in the long run.  If I had the clearance to confidently use these brifters, seems like it'd also be enough to use the appealingly eccentric (and functional-seeming - reachable from all the major hand positions) "wing shifters" - http://www.diacompe.com.tw/product/ene-wing-shifter/

Hadn't mentioned it before, but I'm also a bit leery of hand/wrist issues from the repetitive motion.  Might not be an issue for any single ride, but long day after long day for a couple weeks of touring - the thought concerns me a bit.  I've had a bout or two of non-bike-related wrist tendon issues, and also bike-induced handlebar palsy (numb fingers).  My take is that paying close attention to fit / grip / bar height should be my primary defense against the latter, but also it'd be good to generally try and stack the odds in my hands' and wrists' favor.

Benz, I appreciate your point about cable management - and it would be nice to route everything under the bar tape, if not eliminate cables altogether.  But that's not among my higher priorities.

[alight]

Hi Josiah,

Thanks for the pics and info, it looks great! I'm hoping to set up a low q double as a 1x + bailout, so will probably have the same chainline issues. Will lookout for a unit that disassembles for spring removal... I think Mavic front derailleurs assemble with circlips, so maybe that is another option.

Do you have any trouble with the single bolt attachment for the rod loosening?

Austin in Portland, OR

[Josiah Anderson]

Nope, no problems with the lever loosening. I don't think I even have loctite on that bolt, I just got it pretty tight and it stayed that way. Your suggestion of a derailer with circlips would probably be ideal, so that you can take it apart but not have to worry about loosening pivots.

Josiah

Anderson

[Brad]

Your insight suggests that somehow ball bearings are more tolerant of misalignment.

Could be. 

[James / Analog Cycles]

You don't need the shimano adapter for the IRD levers.  They work fine without it.  I've been doing it for years.  I have a pile of bar con pods that are orphaned as a result.

You just need the levers and the shifters.  You can also mount 11 speed dura ace index shifters.  They just won't friction shift.  I don't know why you'd need a cable pull modifer, unless you wanted to match a SRAM GX 10 speed rear mech to a 9 speed Dura ace shifter and have it friction or index 9 speeds.  Which is super worth it, btw, as you can have a 9 speed drivetrain with a clutch rear mech.  

The microshift shifters are not a good option, in my opinion.  They don't index properly, you have to over shift then walk the shift back, like old campy friction shifting.  That's not what indexing is about.  The friction shifting lacks a ratchet, which leads to a vague feel when shifting.  Shimano does a lot of dumb crap, but their bar cons are great.  The Audax shifters use the same miserable underpowered ratchet inside that Riv's shifters use.  They slip under load.  

Roller bearing headsets need, more than any other headset, a good headtube facing.  Needle bearings need to be in perfect alignment or they bind.  Angular contact bearings can be run semi out of alignment, which makes them run smoothly even if you don't face your headtube.  And face your crown race sittin' spot.

Speaking of headsets, Monday we're hosting another instagram live clinic at 8pm EST on headset and BB install.  Candice is gunna go over facing and chasing and install and adjustment.

-James / Analog Cycles / Tanglefoot Cycles / Discord Components / Fifth Season Canvas