3D Printer Upgrade for Engineering Office

[Steve Blaske]

Long time Lurker here.

Right before I started 4 years ago, our Engineering office purchased a Makerbot Replicator Z18.  Since that time, I've been fighting the poor design inherent to the printer.  Last year, after one of other offices closed, we inherited an Afinia H800, which has worked adequately, though the slicing software leave a lot to be desired. 

Over the past few months, we've been using the Makerbot more and more, and the inadequacies in the design are causing more and more issues.  I think it's time for us to look at getting a better printer, as I'm tired of fighting the machine just to get average prints.  For comparison, I have a Pruse i3 Mk2S at home that I don't have to fight, that produces great prints.

I come to you all asking for recommendations on brands or printers that I could look, so I can make a recommendation to my manager about a new printer.

Some requirements that I'd be looking to meet:

1) Print in more than just PLA (which we're limited to on the Makerbot if we want to keep warranty).

2) Large build volume (at least 12x12x12) If one of the dimensions is smaller, we could make it work.

3) Relatively hands off printing.  We want a machine that will be robust and won't need constant tweaking to make work.

4) I don't have a budget as I'm just fact finding, but I think less than $10k would be doable.

I've taken a glance at what Raise3D and Ultimaker have.  I'm curious if I should stay away from those brands at all?  Are there any other brands I should be taking a look at?

-Steve

[Steven Butterfield]

Take a look at the fusion f400.

[Kurt at VR-FX]

Steve,

Normally  - I generally don't give 3DP purchase suggestions - since I know others here are WAY More versed on what's out there! But, I'm going to give it a shot - and my final suggestion - I think a number of others will wholeheartedly agree w/me - including Sir JetGuy!

As for being under a Rock around here - the Lurker that you are. Glad to hear from a Lurker!!! I actually ran into a former Lurker at MRRF earlier this year - although, don't remember exactly who that was - since I Suck with names...

So - you stated - you wanted essentially Hands-off printing. And, I would suggest the Mojo - especially considering what your co. may be willing to pay. However, its got Low build vol - which is not good - and, it doesn't do ANY other materials than what SSys can supply - and even those filaments are Pricey and Chipped!

As such - all this being said - here's my suggestion:    https://www.fusion3design.com/f410-3d-printer/

Its got Large build vol., enclosed, easy to use, no need to tweak, hands-off, wide range of materials, its like $4.6K -- and other folks on this forum LOVE the previous F400 printer - so this looks like a Great step Up!

So - there you have it!

-K-

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[Kurt at VR-FX]

Damn Steve - you BEAT by like 1 min in your reply. Mine was More
extensive though - and ALSO - no more F400 - its now the new F410 - and
it looks FAB!!!!! I want One!

-K-

[Lee]

Sheesh that is expensive. Why such a high price tag?

[Kurt at VR-FX]

Lee - are you serious on that question? In fact - for what you get - its NOT high!!!

Do yourself a favor - since it looks like you have NOT seen the prior forum threads around the original F400 machine, and all the praise people have given to Chris and his co./machines. If you look back - you will find I actually did a Video interview w/Chris - the co. CEO & one of the founders - when he originally release the F400 3DP at the Inside 3DP Expo in NYC at the Javitts Cntr a couple years ago.

If you do a little research here in the forum - and find and read some of the prior threads. You will then see that it is NOT so expensive. I will just say, though - its Pricey for a Hobby level machine - but, NOT for a Pro-Level type 3DP - and this machine is somewhere in between - albeit truly closer to Pro-level.

I hope that makes more sense now...

-K-

[scienteer]

You could consider the Robox Pro build volume is 210 x 300 x 400. Dual head so you can use 2 colours or disolvable support. Come with 3 different head types; fine(0.3mm)/draft(0.8mm);dual material; ruby for abrasives.

We use the smaller Robox Dual and it is totally plug and play. You loose out on some slicing flexibility and when the heads break they are pricey(but still cheaper than the makerbot smart extruder)

Our machine prints PETG, ABS and Nylon with ease. It should also be good for PC and Carbon filled materials.

[Lee]

Don't get me wrong, it looks good, but 6x the price of a prusa mk3?

[Lee]

Hard to tell from their gallery but there seems to be a lot of ringing on the prints?

On Mon, Aug 20, 2018 at 8:43 PM Kurt at VR-FX <vr...@optonline.net> wrote:

[Steven Butterfield]

Kurt, I had to respond quickly to make sure I beat you 😀

For an engineering application I have heard great things about the fusion printers. They work out of the box so you don't have to upgrade them. I've also heard that they have really good support for their machines. If you would rather spend your time designing instead of fiddling with the printer the fusion printers are the best for it's price that I know of. Let us know what you decide.

[Kurt at VR-FX]

Steven - you Crack me the God Damn Hell Up!!!! Its pretty funny - that
we both posted replies almost instantly - especially as we both spoke in
person recently. So - yeah - thanks for backing me up on my points here.
Seems the new F410 has just GOTTA Kick some Serious ASS!!!

And - alas - I still owe you an offlist reply... :-(

-K-

[Anna Kargu]

Hello!
We use SkyOne for prototyping in our office. And a lot colleagues use now these SkyOne printers for their own.

The main idea - it just prints, it doesn't need to fight or service or even maintain it. Just print details and we can concentrate on our main work.

Just check if the dimensions is okey for you.

As I understand, it is not very popular yet, as the brand is new. But we are satisfied with the quality.

https://3dlaboratorio.es/eng/index.htm

[Mark Napier]

I wouldn't have guessed that mechanism would be ridged enough but compared to 8 mm rods, why not.  Even more impressive that it is carrying a direct-drive extruder out on a long beam.  I honestly don't see how it doesn't shake.  Would like to see a test print to show ghosting artifacts.

The site does show some print examples but there is not a gallery of prints.  No other printer manufacturers do that either: have a gallery of the standard test prints showing what the printer can do at speed.

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[Jason Preuss]

I have a Raise 3D N2+ (not the new pro one) and after putting a Bondtech extruder on it the machine is a tank. I just completed a 250 hour print and it was nearly perfect. I don't have a total lifetime printing count but it is in the thousands of hours over the past 2.5 years. I would not get the new Pro version as the new features are untested and early feedback is not encouraging.

[Jetguy]

Correct, the Pro2 is on my do not buy list. Too many serious issues, thermal runaway is not resolved to my satisfaction, the company is dragging feet, the Pro2 hotends have issues, closed source firmware sucks, and the kicker?

Since all prints are streamed over USB to the closed source motion board, well guess what? users are choking on high res gcode curvy prints.

Now in fairness, N series will choke on the same gcode, but here's the difference, a Pro2 is closed source and no ports to add an additional directly attached SD card and LCD control. N series, the Marlin firmware already natively supports the LCD and SD card, you just plug in the $16 panel and bam- you can print from SD card when you need to and ALSO print from the front screen normally when you don't need direct SD card printing.

So again, Pro2 for all the supposed upgrades, well it sucks. It actually is about 2 steps back. Even if they fix the safety issue, that's the least of your total problems.

Again, Raise3D has screwed the pooch here. There is no recovery.

On Tuesday, August 21, 2018 at 8:32:23 AM UTC-4, Jason Preuss wrote:

[Jetguy]

Just posted today- all you need to see about a Pro2

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZOEWxFWa7cs&feature=youtu.be

[Steve Blaske]

Vrfx,

After looking at the Fusion3 F410, it looks like it fits the bill for us.  I think I'm going to make a recommendation to my manager that we look at buying it.  Thank you for the advice.

Jetguy,

What are your thoughts on a printer?

[Kurt at VR-FX]

Steve - Kurt/VR-FX here...

I know - its ODD that my name doesn't come up properly in the forum...

Am surprised that JetGuy only posted responses to highlight the downsides of the Raise Pro2 - but, did NOT give a Resounding Thumbs up on my reply re:F410. Hopefully he might now respond about that - considering your new reply!

-K-

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[Brandon A.]

Recommended the F400 to a professional acquaintance a year or so ago.  They got in contact with me a few months later to rave about how good it was and to thank me for turning them on to Fusion3.  

Wish I had direct experience with their machines, just figured I would offer up my limited experience.  Your use case sounds very similar to theirs.

[Gian Pablo Villamil]

Ask them for some sample prints, they provide them very quickly with a detailed info sheet.

[Gian Pablo Villamil]

The Stacker 4 looks interesting. I had a chance to inspect their prints, and they are remarkably good. Colorfabb uses them as one of their standard demo printers.

http://stacker3d.com/product/stacker-s4-industrial-3d-printer/

[Kurt at VR-FX]

Brandon - am thrilled to see your feedback - and that they really like the printer. Chris, the CEO - he's a really good dude. I met him a couple years ago at Inside 3DP Expo - and I did a short video of him introducing the new F400 when it was initially released. But, then again - you probably already know about that video...

-K-

On 8/23/2018 12:32 PM, Brandon A. wrote:

Recommended the F400 to a professional acquaintance a year or so ago.  They got in contact with me a few months later to rave about how good it was and to thank me for turning them on to Fusion3.  

Wish I had direct experience with their machines, just figured I would offer up my limited experience.  Your use case sounds very similar to theirs.

[Brandon A.]

I had totally forgotten about these guys.  I drive by them twice a day, it would be cool to arrange a visit to check out their tech.  My coworker was trying to convince me to upgrade our R2X to a Stacker a few years back and I wasn't convinced.  Good to hear some feedback on them.

[chrono144]

So,
I've got a Replicator 2x at the office (and one at home) Been using it a lot for prototypes, but would like to use a 3d printer for small scale manufacturing until we get a design far enough along to do a full injection mold.

Would you recommend the Fusion F410 over the Formlabs Form2?

Ease of use is pretty high on the list, as the more this project gets on, the more I need other people to work on the 3dp, and as far as the makerbot is concerned, it's basically just me that can really use it.

Are the prints from the F410 good enough to send out in a product?

Can the prints be made watertight? (this is one of the main benefits I see with SLA...)

I saw the form 2's at CES this year, and was really impressed with the quality of the final prints, but SLA looks like a helluva new headache....

[Kurt at VR-FX]

Yeah - Ur really comparing Apples to Oranges below of F410 vs. Form2. I've never really worked with SLA before - so, I can't really give much more input...

-K-

On 8/28/2018 4:06 PM, chrono144 wrote:

So,
I've got a Replicator 2x at the office (and one at home) Been using it a lot for prototypes, but would like to use a 3d printer for small scale manufacturing until we get a design far enough along to do a full injection mold.

Would you recommend the Fusion F410 over the Formlabs Form2?

Ease of use is pretty high on the list, as the more this project gets on, the more I need other people to work on the 3dp, and as far as the makerbot is concerned, it's basically just me that can really use it.

Are the prints from the F410 good enough to send out in a product?

I saw the form 2's at CES this year, and was really impressed with the quality of the final prints, but SLA looks like a helluva new headache....


On Monday, August 20, 2018 at 2:22:17 PM UTC-4, Steve Blaske wrote:

Long time Lurker here.

Right before I started 4 years ago, our Engineering office purchased a Makerbot Replicator Z18.  Since that time, I've been fighting the poor design inherent to the printer.  Last year, after one of other offices closed, we inherited an Afinia H800, which has worked adequately, though the slicing software leave a lot to be desired. 

Over the past few months, we've been using the Makerbot more and more, and the inadequacies in the design are causing more and more issues.  I think it's time for us to look at getting a better printer, as I'm tired of fighting the machine just to get average prints.  For comparison, I have a Pruse i3 Mk2S at home that I don't have to fight, that produces great prints.

I come to you all asking for recommendations on brands or printers that I could look, so I can make a recommendation to my manager about a new printer.

Some requirements that I'd be looking to meet:

1) Print in more than just PLA (which we're limited to on the Makerbot if we want to keep warranty).

2) Large build volume (at least 12x12x12) If one of the dimensions is smaller, we could make it work.

3) Relatively hands off printing.  We want a machine that will be robust and won't need constant tweaking to make work.

4) I don't have a budget as I'm just fact finding, but I think less than $10k would be doable.

I've taken a glance at what Raise3D and Ultimaker have.  I'm curious if I should stay away from those brands at all?  Are there any other brands I should be taking a look at?

-Steve

[Brandon A.]

Hey Chrono,

We picked up a Form1+ for work with the express purpose of creating transparent water/airtight prints.  It works very well for this.

If you indeed plan to use the machine for small scale manufacturing be sure to factor in the additional cost of the automated post processing machines or be prepared to spend ~30-40 mins per print cleaning up.

I think the biggest thing Formlabs has going for them right now is their excellent suite of engineering resins.  They can get pretty expensive ($300/L for castable $175-$200 for engineering variants) but the results are great.

SLA is a bit of a headache, you are correct, but if your FDM parts aren't cutting it, it might just be a magic bullet, and that's worth the hassle to me.

[chrono144]

Thanks Brandon!

I really appreciate your input!

How is the post processing with the post processing machines?
Does it cut the headache from SLA?
Is it a process that can be taught (For manufacturing) to non-3dprint minded people?

[Brandon A.]

I think that both the manual process and the Formwash/cure systems can be taught.

Washing consists of rinsing the parts with IPA with a squeeze bottle, 5 mins of agitation, 5 mins of soak, rinse again, transfer to a cleaner soak tank, 10 min soak, and compressed air dry to avoid spotting.  Nothing difficult or complicated, but it can be a bit of a time sink on a busy day.  The Formwash is stupid simple, insert full build plate, press start, walk away.

Post-curing is a bit more complicated.  Like ceramics SLA prints have a "green" state in which they are fully formed, but not considered a finished product with desired properties.  The standard modeling resins are very forgiving and can simply be sat in a window to post cure (possible but not recommended).  The engineering resins have specific cure requirements relating to time and temperature, and possibly intensity?  The cure station is the post machine I would invest in if you can only budget one, it has a screen to simply select the resin used and it will run the program.  Alternatively you will need to fab up a cure box with temp control and trust your operators to look up and set the correct settings for each print.

You will still need to slice all files, but once they are prepped they can be thrown in a queue on the printer so an operator can clean/swap build plate, swap resin cartridge/tank (if necessary) and select the next file in line.

I think the biggest headache associated with SLA is just the materials.  Liquid resin is no joke, get it on your hands and you're going to have a bad time, forget to clean it off your tools in a timely fashion and you're going to have a bad time.  The VOCs released by the resins can make people nauseous even with good air circulation and a lot of alcohol will be used.  Get a sealed container for waste IPA and look into hazmat near you (or burn it, I'm not your mom).

Beyond that you should establish a regular maintenance schedule for cleaning the optical windows of the printer/tanks and you should be good to go, who needs a carbon3D rental?

I think that covers it pretty well.  Good luck!  If interested you can request samples of FL resins on their site (I do this every time they release a new one even though us lowly Form1 users can't use most of them.)

[Steven Butterfield]

I'll second Brandon's comments. We had a form 2 and established similar procedures for safety and print quality. We tried the cure in sunlight on the window sill technique but found that it caused the part to warp from uneven curing. Once we started to use a uv light curing box that warping was almost eliminated.

[Kurt at VR-FX]

All this discussion of the FormLabs SLA printer - when nobody is discussing their FUSE printer? Honestly - I would MUCH Prefer the Fuse! You don't have all that nasty post process requirements. Sure - you have to do a clean up of the particles off the object and dig it out, but, they have a machine to help with that process. Personally - I would LOVE to get a Fuse printer - especially as I have a project that I would like to get back to - and doing it in Nylon on a Fuse would be the perfect solution for me!

Just sayin'...

-K-

--

[Brandon A.]

Hey Kurt,

I think there are a couple big reasons the Fuse hasn't been mentioned.

1.) Different process (so far one material, less precise, may be water-tight, but possibly not air-tight)

2.) Different price point (sure you are close-ish to the base Fuse if you buy all 3 of the SLA machines)

3.) Newness factor

#3 is the biggest issue, especially given the current consideration of bringing this online to function as low scale production.  The Fuse looks awesome, but beyond that it's all guessing.  To my current knowledge no consumers have their hands on a Fuse.  By comparison the F2 has been out in the public en masse and builds on the back of another fairly successful system.  It has a full material library that allows you to do just about anything you desire.  On top of that Formlabs has been notoriously slow with product roll outs (they are a small company with huge demand so they get a viable excuse, but that doesn't make the machines ship any faster).

Given the proposed use case, plunking down $10,000 on a pre-order of a brand new, untested machine that may or may not arrive by Q1 2019 isn't even a viable option.

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[Kurt at VR-FX]

What? I thought the machine was released into the wild a while ago - as
the original video that was posted was like a Year prior to my posting
about it a little while ago on here. Am Totally surprised that None of
the Fuse machines have shipped yet. Is that right - they really have not
delivered them to anyone yet?

If that IS The Case - I can surely understand your hesitancy.

I'm still skeptical about SLA type machines - for the reasons mentioned
by many others on here.

And - thanks SO MUCH for your extensive feedback here - I really
appreciate it!

-K-

[chrono144]

Honestly the thing with the fuse, is I've been a bit underwhelmed by even the stratsys sls machines at shapeways.
Specifically around printing threaded parts.
However the SLA prints I've gotten off the form 2 from people on 3d hubs always has impressed me.
It's pretty incredible how nice the parts come out and how watertight they are almost by definition.
That, and the form 2 with the post processing stations cost 5k, and the fuse costs 10k.
Right off the bat the fuse makes a few injection molding runs seem cheaper, because the return rate happens later for production for my companies finances.

So for me it's a multiple input question; price performance usability and repeatability.
The MakerBot rep2x has been a great thing so far, but there are clear limitations of it. What I'm not clear if those are just fdm limitations or just with my two machines.

Having said that I ordered some prints from the f410, looking forward to seeing what they look like!

[Gian Pablo Villamil]

If you are able to visit them, let me know what you think.

Is there a connection to Stratasys, any alumni there?

[Lorem_Ipsum]

Chrono,

I own a Form2 and have purchased one for work as well.  They are great machines for high detail prints.  We have six engineers and two designers that are trained on making parts with them.  Some are better than others (attention to detail).  Someone must take ownership of the system to keep it up to date, order materials, and correct other peoples mistakes.  To use the Form2 with easy, purchase a Formlabs washing machine and cure box.  We use the Wicked Engineering Cure Box.  I have the 2nd generation WE CB2, and it is great.

At work we have a Stratasys Fortus 360 MC.  It is a beast, all be it getting old.  The Fortus is an FDM machine and makes very accurate and strong parts, but they suffer from layer lines.  The FDM parts are NOT water or air tight.  You can seal them with paint or glue, but that isn't any fun.  We are looking at getting the F410 as well, because it costs the same as the annual maintenance on our Fortus.

At work, we realize that we need both the Form2 and an FDM machine.  They make different types of prints.  The Form2 makes very fine prints with unparalleled surface finish.  The strength of the parts is okay if cleaned and cured in the UV cure box.  They prints do get brittle over time.  The FDM printer is needed for large or strong parts.  Accuracy with FDM is great if you are measuring a flat surface and not concerned with the surface texture.

So get both, Form2 + washer + cure box = $4k + $1k + $1k = $6k.  The F410 + work stand = $4.5k + $1k = $5.5K.  Just budget for $13k for a new set of printers and materials.

[chrono144]

Thanks Lorem_Ipsum!

Your review is quite good for me to get!

That makes a lot of sense, however, you said you notice the parts from the Form 2 get brittle over time??
What from? UV?

[Steven Butterfield]

The resins we used on the form 2 all got more brittle over time.