CoreXYZ

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Ryan Carlyle

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Jun 29, 2014, 7:00:53 PM6/29/14
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Here's the design for my CoreXYZ concept. It's an extension of the CoreXY belt path into 3 dimensions. See attachments for full theory write-up and Sketchup model. License CC-BY-NC-SA.  


The really cool thing about this design is the possibility of a CoreXYZZY variant. (Suggested by Joseph Chiu.) The entire printer can be flipped on its side to exchange the Y and Z axes. Naturally this will require rotating the extruder carriage, having two build plates, and doing some cleverness around tilt-activated relays to flip the endstops and such.

Design in progress.
CoreXYZ.pdf
CoreXYZ.skp

Gary Crowell

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Jul 25, 2014, 4:46:03 PM7/25/14
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Fascinating write-up.

I suspect you've already done this, but I couldn't help working out the logic for the XYZ - ABCD  translation.

ADIR = (XDIR & XSTEP) + (YDIR & YSTEP) + (ZDIR & ZSTEP)
BDIR = (XDIR & XSTEP) + (!YDIR & YSTEP) + (ZDIR & ZSTEP)
CDIR = (!XDIR & XSTEP) + ( !YDIR & YSTEP) + (ZDIR & ZSTEP)
DDIR = (!XDIR & XSTEP) + ( YDIR & YSTEP) + (ZDIR & ZSTEP)
STEP = XSTEP + YSTEP + ZSTEP

As a sanity check I fiddled that together in a simulator and it works just as expected.
NAND-NAND equivalent to AND-OR.



That's really just a handful of gates.  Half of those go away if you're just doing XY - AB.  20 years ago I'd have just done that in a single PAL/GAL chip, but I don't think those exist anymore.  While I've done some work with large FPGA's, I have no idea what the current solution is for small logic implementation.  I'll have to look around.  It may just be simplest to implement it in discrete logic; I count 4 cheap chips.

There is a gotcha there.  Since the XYZstep is part of the direction logic, it violates the set-up time of the driver.  It'll be necessary to delay the step signal to the drivers to meet the direction set-up.  I don't see any problem in doing that.

Gary

Ryan Carlyle

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Jul 27, 2014, 11:55:32 AM7/27/14
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I had gotten as far as a truth table and "most of" the gate schematic. (Just another iPad sketch.) But it's been about 10 years since I've done any gate-level logic design and I've forgotten how to most of it. So I was looking at something like, ehh, 10 ANDs, 5 ORs, and 12 inverters. A lot sloppier than your version. 

Seems like this would be pretty easy to wire up on a breadboard with a few hex-NAND DIPS. I suppose the delay requirement will depend on the stepper driver? The standard Makerbot/Clone driver is an A4982, which needs: 

So we'd need a min 200ns, max 800ns delay between a 1us input step pulse and the output step pulse? (How wide is the actual Mightyboard step pulse?) We're rapidly getting beyond my competence level here  :-)

Dan Newman

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Jul 27, 2014, 5:10:43 PM7/27/14
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On 27/07/2014, 8:55 AM, Ryan Carlyle wrote:
> I had gotten as far as a truth table and "most of" the gate schematic.
> (Just another iPad sketch.) But it's been about 10 years since I've done
> any gate-level logic design and I've forgotten how to most of it. So I was
> looking at something like, ehh, 10 ANDs, 5 ORs, and 12 inverters.

To which one then might apply a Karnaugh map and see if that results in a
simplification. But looks like Gary did a mental equivalent.

Dan

Joseph Chiu

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Jul 27, 2014, 6:33:10 PM7/27/14
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Make sure that there are sufficient cover-terms for de-glitching, if this is an asynchronous design!




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Gary Crowell

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Jul 27, 2014, 10:46:30 PM7/27/14
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I briefly looked at small programmable logic.  What I saw was based on the old 22V10 PAL cores that I was familiar with, but much expanded.  While inexpensive, $2-$5, the smallest package I noted was a 44-TQFP, and then it has to be programmed.  Unless there's other logic you wanted to add in, it looks like a gate level breadboard would be quick and easy.  I've added in a '123 for the delays which makes it 5 chips.  I think it came out with one inverter left over that I didn't show.

Karnaugh maps were in the back of my mind, but no, it wasn't that formal.  I do think that this is going to be as reduced as it gets though.

If the outputs from the microcontroller are well-behaved, i.e., all direction outputs are settled and remain so during a step, and only one step at a time, I don't see any potential for glitches.

A common​​ 74xx123 should work fine for the delays.  Proper choice of tolerance and stability on the RC's of course.  The actual values will change depending on the logic family used; the values shown give a 400ns delay for setup and a 1.3ms step.  Have to check what is needed for a DRV8825.



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Gary Crowell

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Jul 27, 2014, 10:53:05 PM7/27/14
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Sorry, the scope waveforms don't show up great on that .jpg, but they are there; thin red lines.

And ugh, do I have to drag out my old 16500 logic analyzer?  I think I'd rather spend a couple hundred and get one of the new little ones instead.

Gary

Joseph Chiu

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Jul 27, 2014, 11:41:54 PM7/27/14
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I use a LogicPort - 24 channel logic analyzer with protocol decoding... I wish it had a deeper buffer, but it's otherwise perfect. I love the fact that I can carry my logic analyzer in my carry-on luggage. :)


Joseph Chiu

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Jul 27, 2014, 11:42:44 PM7/27/14
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Err, 34 channels!


Gary Crowell

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Jul 28, 2014, 5:43:43 PM7/28/14
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On Sunday, June 29, 2014 5:00:53 PM UTC-6, Ryan Carlyle wrote:

Design in progress.

So, how much in progress?   If you want to try the XYZ>ABCD hardware conversion, I could cut a board easily...

Used DIPs 'cause SMT would require vias;  not complete is power and discrete R's & C's.  I have an LPKF pcb mill that would cut this easily.

Gary




Ryan Carlyle

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Jul 28, 2014, 7:35:04 PM7/28/14
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Man, you're awesome, Gary.

How would you feel about putting 4x stepper driver sockets on there, with pass-throughs from a ribbon cable to the existing mightyboard sockets for vref, etc? I can connect everything manually if you don't feel like doing that much work, but it'd be nice. Hmm. Adding another driver's worth of current probably justifies running dedicated wiring to the PSU for the sub-board. Lemme sketch something up.

I had back-burnered the CoreXYZ build due to wife aggro on 3DP parts purchases, plus the overall difficult implementation scope. So I've been tweaking/upgrading my CoreXY and gradually accumulating parts for a third bot. But if you're helping on the electrical design, I can get back on CoreXYZ and perhaps strip my CoreXY for the frame and electronics. Wouldn't take a lot of extra non-printed parts -- just the spectra line drive, some more rods, etc. Plenty of parts design to do but that's not difficult. Hard part has always been getting the stepper control sorted.

Ryan Carlyle

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Jul 28, 2014, 8:28:36 PM7/28/14
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Quick sketch attached, assuming it goes through from my iPad. This is pulled straight off the Mightyboard Rev E schematic. 

Need to pull these from the Mightyboard stepper driver sockets:
Either X or Y Enable (Not Z to avoid Z-hold settings)
Either X or Y VRef (4 symmetrical motion axes = same current to all, I say)
X-Dir
X-Step
Y-Dir
Y-Step
Z-Dir
Z-Step
+5v
Ground?

Need a separate screw terminal for +24v and Ground wired straight to the PSU with some decent gauge wire.
image.jpg

Gary Crowell

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Jul 29, 2014, 12:24:12 PM7/29/14
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Easzy Peazy.  Will have a sch tonight or tomorrow.  Layout and cutting will be no prob.

I have an ulterior motive.  I've got a Misumi2525 frame 300x300x600mm that I was planning to wire as CoreXY, but I haven't bought the Zscrews yet...
Err, 34 channels!







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Joseph Chiu

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Jul 29, 2014, 12:33:37 PM7/29/14
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But couldn't you have gotten by with, say, a direct belt drive on the Z stage, though?   The Phoenix 3D (Easy3D) guys have been doing that and seemed to have a pretty decent success with their machines operating that way?


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Ryan Carlyle

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Jul 29, 2014, 1:30:38 PM7/29/14
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Ah-hah. I've been looking at a 300x300x1000mm frame for CoreXYZ but haven't bought it yet. Trying to find a good option for supported rails to suit -- I was thinking about using 2040 or something similar to mount supported rails to. I doubt 4x unsupported 10mm rods will be stiff enough when the carriage is slinging around at mid-span. Might just give up and use the extrusions themselves for Z rails though. It's a little more complex than you might think, because gantry skew is how you tram, so some angular play is required where the XY gantry meets the Z rods.

One thing I haven't sorted out yet is how to do the spectra drive. For the first rev, I'll probably just print smooth pulleys and use fisherman's knots to make loops that can roll over grooved pulleys without issues. Maybe steal some Tantillus/Ingentis parts.

Ryan Carlyle

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Jul 29, 2014, 3:27:07 PM7/29/14
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Issue with direct drive belts on Z is the minimum step size being kind of large for low layer heights. (With normal 1.8 degree steppers and ~18t pulleys.) The Z resolution may be too rough unless you use a gearbox or pulley arrangement to "gear down" the Z axis.

Yes, this is an issue with CoreXYZ too. The X,Y,Z resolutions are necessarily equal. And the Atmega is very limited on clock cycles to handle high steps/sec rates. So fast XY motion means rough Z resolution, and high Z resolution means slow XY motion. I haven't worked through all the implications of doing a "gear reduction" for CoreXY. It should be easy enough to put a loop in the Z-legs to give them a 3:1 mechanical advantage relative to XY, but I haven't worked through all the possible implications of that. (It should tilt the planes defined by each belt from 45 degrees to 15 degrees or something like that.)

One alternative that crossed my mind is using the stepper multiplexer circuit to double-step on XY moves and single-step on Z moves. That doesn't actually increase the Z resolution but it does reduce the processing load on the Atmega to fire the stepper interrupt for X and Y, which means on net the total XYZ resolution can be made finer. Same basic outcome. I think I'll build the symmetrical version first to see if it performs ok as-is, then try the 3:1 Z, and then save the electric fix as a last resort.

Vernon Barry

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Jul 29, 2014, 8:22:06 PM7/29/14
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Just jumper the microstepping in the drivers since you are breaking it out.
 
Just saying 1/8 stepping is plenty and leave 1/16th for Z.
 
Makes the whole setup a lot easier.

Ryan Carlyle

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Jul 29, 2014, 10:03:02 PM7/29/14
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I wanted to do that too, but it won't work here. All four CoreXYZ steppers have to fire during every Cartesian move. What determines carriage direction is what direction combo they fire in, not which steppers fire.

I'd love a system that changed the microstepping level depending on which direction it was stepping, but (didn't you tell me this?) the drivers lose microstep position registration when switching stepping levels. So the shortcut is double-stepping X and Y to make effective 1/8th stepping. Or just use the gantry pulleys.

Ryan Carlyle

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Aug 1, 2014, 12:30:45 AM8/1/14
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Alright, I'm buying parts now. Just ordered a Misumi frame kit and all the linear motion hardware for a 5:1 pulley reduction Z motion implementation. With 18mm diameter smooth stepper pulleys, this will give ~57 steps/mm on X and Y and ~285 steps/mm on Z. In other words, a fast bot for large prints.

I'll start modeling up the motion mechanism parts over the weekend. There's actually only a few CoreXYZ-specific parts to model -- the carriage, the X ends, and the Y ends mainly, then a few angled pulley mounts to attach stationary pulleys to the 2020 frame. Should be pretty easy.

Most everything aside from the motion mechanism is just going to copy my CoreXY bot. HBP, electronics, extruder, etc all the same.

Ryan Carlyle

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Aug 1, 2014, 7:38:13 PM8/1/14
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Work in progress...

Ryan Carlyle

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Aug 2, 2014, 3:54:29 PM8/2/14
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X ends and Y ends done:

Ryan Carlyle

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Aug 3, 2014, 12:02:58 AM8/3/14
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Motor arrangement, tensioning, and tramming sorted:



(the idlers on the 2020 rails near the motors will be "loosen, slide, tighten" to adjust line tension)

Gary Crowell

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Aug 3, 2014, 2:36:22 AM8/3/14
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Looking really interesting.

Here's the schematic for the XYZ-ABCD converter board.  
  • I've got a breakout board for the MIghtyboard Botstep sockets - it uses a 10-pin header/cable to bring the signals to the converter board (I've got a bunch of 10-pin cables here somewhere).
  • I added step select jumpers for AB, and CD.
  • There are jumpers to reverse any ABCD direction.
  • Sockets to mount the ABCD Botsteps.
  • Mightyboard-type Molex 0.156x4 headers for motor connection.
  • On-board 5V generated from 24V.
I have the board routed except for a few impossible routes and some cleanup.  Not too late to make changes though, if you have any other ideas.

Gary


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CoreXYZsch.pdf

Ryan Carlyle

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Aug 3, 2014, 1:40:12 PM8/3/14
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Looking really good. Here's a few thoughts:
  • The step select jumpers are great. Caveat is that I think all the drivers have to be at the same microstepping level. If you put two drivers at 1/8th and two at 1/16th, motion won't be Cartesian any more. So you probably ought to use the same pair of jumpers for all four motors rather than breaking out two separate pairs. (Just dummy-proofs it a little.)
  • Is there any risk from having two different 5v regulators in the system? Versus pulling the main 5v leg off a board driver socket. IE someone connects the two 5v legs together somehow. Not sure how the risk tradeoff here plays out since the board 5v is under-spec'd on the older hardware. I don't have the answer, just asking the question.
  • The direction reversal jumpers are a really good addition. (Much easier than rewiring the steppers.) And now that you have those jumpers, you have the option to simplify the stepper header traces. Specifically where OUT1B and OUT1A cross to go to stepper header pins 3 and 4. If you de-cross that wiring, it will flip the stepper direction. Then the direction jumpers will flip it back. 
  • I don't think it matters in the slightest to the function, but the OUT1 and OUT2 phases are reversed against header pin numbers 1,2 and 3,4 compared to the Rev E Mightyboard. You have OUT2=1,2 whereas MBI has OUT2=3,4. Again, doesn't hurt anything, but I figured I'd mention it in case you're picky about consistency. Yeah, this is kind of the opposite of the last bullet, I know.
On Sunday, August 3, 2014 1:36:22 AM UTC-5, Gary Crowell wrote:
Looking really interesting.

Here's the schematic for the XYZ-ABCD converter board.  
  • I've got a breakout board for the MIghtyboard Botstep sockets - it uses a 10-pin header/cable to bring the signals to the converter board (I've got a bunch of 10-pin cables here somewhere).
  • I added step select jumpers for AB, and CD.
  • There are jumpers to reverse any ABCD direction.
  • Sockets to mount the ABCD Botsteps.
  • Mightyboard-type Molex 0.156x4 headers for motor connection.
  • On-board 5V generated from 24V.
I have the board routed except for a few impossible routes and some cleanup.  Not too late to make changes though, if you have any other ideas.

Gary
On Sat, Aug 2, 2014 at 10:02 PM, Ryan Carlyle <temp...@gmail.com> wrote:
Motor arrangement, tensioning, and tramming sorted:



(the idlers on the 2020 rails near the motors will be "loosen, slide, tighten" to adjust line tension)

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Ryan Carlyle

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Aug 3, 2014, 1:58:10 PM8/3/14
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On the mechanical side -- I'm designing it for: 
  • Misumi 2020 frame 340x340x580 to match my existing CoreXY lasercut parts, but size is very flexible. Main thing is the corner bracket style. The Y-end alignment and pulley size match Misumi HFS5 brackets since I'm using them to hold the Z pulleys. It could be modified for another bracket style or for a printed corner bracket without too much trouble.
  • 12mm linear rods on Z, mounted with VXB shaft end flanges. Wouldn't be too hard to redesign for supported rod or extrusion slide. 
  • 8mm linear rods on X and Y
  • These V-groove pulleys from Robotdigg: (need 52 = 9 sets) http://robotdigg.com/product/72/Fishing-Line-Pulley-Bearing
  • Pretty much all M4 hardware
I'll provide Sketchup files and BOM/PNs for anyone who wants them. Depending on the motion parts you end up wanting to use, I can make alternate versions of printed parts. It's just some modelling work to change pocket sizes for bearings and stuff.

Ryan Carlyle

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Aug 3, 2014, 4:24:25 PM8/3/14
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Lots of parts are coming directly from my CoreXY Cube build. Find the BOM for that here: http://www.thingiverse.com/thing:393155
  • Extruder carriage in its entirety
  • All the electronics
  • Lasercut panels to hold electronics

Gary Crowell

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Aug 3, 2014, 6:12:45 PM8/3/14
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Current layout for the ABCD converter.  100% routed, even passed DRC for clearance.  I'll still be tweaking for awhile to shorten traces and increase spaces where possible.  Trying to get a better grid on the 5V/Gnd but I think it's about as good as it's gonna get.  Layout may look odd in some respects 'cause it's done for a milled board.  There's no thru vias except where a component pin or added wire goes thru the hole (and that pin must be soldered both sides).  You can't put a topside trace to a component pin where the body of the component covers the pad (connectors, headers, etc.) 'cause you can't solder the topside on those.  The body of the screwterm stepper output overlaps the molex connectors, so that's an either-or case.


Inline image 1


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Vernon Barry

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Aug 4, 2014, 9:09:13 AM8/4/14
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Gary, I'm glad youa re doing this as a routed board, FYI James Armstrong who is also here in Charleston also has a PCB mill and can cut these for me as well.
 
Sorry, that I've been quiet on this thread, just trying to get a few other major projects done in the very limited spare time that I have free right now.


Ryan Carlyle

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Aug 4, 2014, 9:45:10 AM8/4/14
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You going to build one too, Vernon? 

I would be knee-deep building mine already if I didn't like my CoreXY too much to strip it for parts. As it is, I have a lot of stuff to source.


On Monday, August 4, 2014 8:09:13 AM UTC-5, Vernon Barry wrote:
Gary, I'm glad youa re doing this as a routed board, FYI James Armstrong who is also here in Charleston also has a PCB mill and can cut these for me as well.
 
Sorry, that I've been quiet on this thread, just trying to get a few other major projects done in the very limited spare time that I have free right now.
On Sun, Aug 3, 2014 at 6:12 PM, Gary Crowell <garyacr...@gmail.com> wrote:


Current layout for the ABCD converter.  100% routed, even passed DRC for clearance.  I'll still be tweaking for awhile to shorten traces and increase spaces where possible.  Trying to get a better grid on the 5V/Gnd but I think it's about as good as it's gonna get.  Layout may look odd in some respects 'cause it's done for a milled board.  There's no thru vias except where a component pin or added wire goes thru the hole (and that pin must be soldered both sides).  You can't put a topside trace to a component pin where the body of the component covers the pad (connectors, headers, etc.) 'cause you can't solder the topside on those.  The body of the screwterm stepper output overlaps the molex connectors, so that's an either-or case.


Inline image 1
On Sun, Aug 3, 2014 at 2:24 PM, Ryan Carlyle <temp...@gmail.com> wrote:
Lots of parts are coming directly from my CoreXY Cube build. Find the BOM for that here: http://www.thingiverse.com/thing:393155
  • Extruder carriage in its entirety
  • All the electronics
  • Lasercut panels to hold electronics

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Vernon Barry

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Aug 4, 2014, 12:20:38 PM8/4/14
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Maybe one day after Maker Faire.
 
I have only a few weekends left to get the big machine up, running, tuned, and cleaned up for September.


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Chris P

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Aug 5, 2014, 5:22:08 PM8/5/14
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Ryan, your idler pulleys and motor drive pulleys strongly imply you're going cable drive on this one...  Two reasons I can think of are a) cost vs open ended belts and b) easier to route cable drive through the system, do plane changes, etc, vs a belt.  Did I miss any?

Ryan Carlyle

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Aug 5, 2014, 7:22:20 PM8/5/14
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It's mostly the non-planar turns. You'd have to put a 90 degree twist in the belts between the Y ends and X ends.

Plus yeah, spectra drive is WAY cheaper with this many idlers.

Ryan Carlyle

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Aug 10, 2014, 11:20:47 AM8/10/14
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Gary,

What sort of stepper headers are you intending for this board? I see two rows of pads for different pitches?

I was thinking of using these, which I believe will match stock Mightyboard RevE:


On Sunday, August 3, 2014 5:12:45 PM UTC-5, Gary Crowell wrote:


Current layout for the ABCD converter.  100% routed, even passed DRC for clearance.  I'll still be tweaking for awhile to shorten traces and increase spaces where possible.  Trying to get a better grid on the 5V/Gnd but I think it's about as good as it's gonna get.  Layout may look odd in some respects 'cause it's done for a milled board.  There's no thru vias except where a component pin or added wire goes thru the hole (and that pin must be soldered both sides).  You can't put a topside trace to a component pin where the body of the component covers the pad (connectors, headers, etc.) 'cause you can't solder the topside on those.  The body of the screwterm stepper output overlaps the molex connectors, so that's an either-or case.


Inline image 1
On Sun, Aug 3, 2014 at 2:24 PM, Ryan Carlyle <temp...@gmail.com> wrote:
Lots of parts are coming directly from my CoreXY Cube build. Find the BOM for that here: http://www.thingiverse.com/thing:393155
  • Extruder carriage in its entirety
  • All the electronics
  • Lasercut panels to hold electronics

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Ryan Carlyle

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Aug 10, 2014, 4:56:41 PM8/10/14
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Actually, now that I'm thinking about it, I'd like to go ahead and order everything I need to get this working. All the rest of the necessary CoreXYZ parts are on their way now. Are we at the "release a BOM and fab some boards" stage?

Ryan Carlyle

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Aug 12, 2014, 10:58:05 PM8/12/14
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Build update: most of the parts are in. I have:
Frame kit
Electronics (FF mightyboard etc, PSU)
Linear rods and bearings
Spectra line
Stepper line pulleys
Most of the spectra idlers
Steppers
Most of the printed parts (all the gantry components)
Extruder & hot end
Tons of M4 hardware

On the way / in progress:
Lasercut structure plates
More spectra idlers
HBP
Gary's kick-ass stepper multiplexing board
Some more printed parts (stepper brackets)

Hoping to get the frame and 3-axis gantry put together this weekend.

Ryan Carlyle

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Aug 14, 2014, 8:39:13 PM8/14/14
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Latest render. Changed the motor arrangement and line path around to make mounting the HBP and electronics easier. It's not super pretty, but it's the least-bad routing I've come up with (of like five different options).

Dan Newman

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Aug 14, 2014, 9:24:23 PM8/14/14
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On 14/08/2014, 5:39 PM, Ryan Carlyle wrote:
>
>
> Latest render. Changed the motor arrangement and line path around to make
> mounting the HBP and electronics easier. It's not super pretty, but it's
> the least-bad routing I've come up with (of like five different options).

Well, three points do define a plane. But you need to add leveling feet to those
three stepper motors ;) (Also, I want to see rainbows shooting out of the extruder
and maybe a my little pony on the build plate. You know, to appeal to the bronies.)

Dan

Ryan Carlyle

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Aug 14, 2014, 9:58:17 PM8/14/14
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Ask and ye shall receive.

Friendship is magic!

Dan Newman

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Aug 14, 2014, 10:01:46 PM8/14/14
to Ryan Carlyle, 3dp-...@googlegroups.com
On 14/08/2014, 6:58 PM, Ryan Carlyle wrote:
> Ask and ye shall receive.
>
> <https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-TKa6tsHEKR0/U-1pA7onyAI/AAAAAAAAAic/lMFmJ1TPlik/s1600/Capture.PNG>
> Friendship is magic!

Now that's a serious printer. Sign me up!
(P.S. we're they printed without support?)

Dan

Ryan Carlyle

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Aug 14, 2014, 10:04:13 PM8/14/14