Voron 2 R2 kit or Injection Molding machine?

[Dan Flemming]

This may not be the forum for this question, if not please let me know.

I'm in a position where I need some good quality product.

I have around 50 parts I'm gearing up to sell (my own inventions).

I've looked at 2 types of machines for creating plastics and I'm thinking the Voron 2 R2 might be the best bet.

Mainly because I can print anything on them I might need in the future.

Injection molding machine is fairly cheap, but is restricted to 47g shot max.

But molds are expensive to make (even DYI) for the quantities I need.

If I decide to go with a Voron 2 R2 kit, is there a preference who the vendor kit is from?

I'm thinking 350x350 kit (300x300 are only 100-200 cheaper).

Thanks,

D

[Vishal Pai]

Have you considered a desktop Resin printer like the one from Nexa 3D ?

I ordered some test parts from them and they came out as good as injection molded. 

Worth taking a look if you have the budget.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "3D Printing Tips and Tricks" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to 3d-printing-tips--...@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/3d-printing-tips--tricks/b7b422ab-eec8-49c0-812a-fb112ad39871n%40googlegroups.com.

[EricA]

Based on what I have read, the LDO kits seem to be highest quality you can get. I am in the process of building a Voron, but I self sourced the components since I need a non-standard size. I am using LDO linear guides and motors and they seem to be good quality.

[markni...@gmail.com]

If you go the injection molding route, you can quickly change between delrin, ABS, polypropylene, nylon etc., easily, without worrying about layer adhesion.

You can't easily print any of the above plastics without a heated build chamber.

Injected parts, generally speaking, look and function better than FDM parts, and are stronger than resin printed parts.

[Dan Flemming]

I don't think resin will be a choice, but thanks.

Injection molding would be the way to go, but my costs would be staggering for all my products.

I'd have to find a backer, I'd rather do it myself if I can until I can make enough to afford other options.

So I think the Voron would be my best option to get started.

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/3d-printing-tips--tricks/aa763298-dd65-4d98-9028-660ebfffd6b6n%40googlegroups.com.

[Juan Posada]

How big is the largest part you intend to make?

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/3d-printing-tips--tricks/CAAKGtWp-R0nOUzsUpvwqxf%2BX9DyrmtL-Z2_wWfi9tBR1-6nRzg%40mail.gmail.com.

[Dan Flemming]

The largest part is about 175mm long x 60mm round.

[Kurt at VRFX]

Dan - I know this may be a stretch - and I agree - IM IS Pricey! But, have you considered doing it as a KickStarter - and build into the campaign Min. IM Qtys???

-K

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/3d-printing-tips--tricks/CAAKGtWp-R0nOUzsUpvwqxf%2BX9DyrmtL-Z2_wWfi9tBR1-6nRzg%40mail.gmail.com.

[Dan Flemming]

Kurt,

I don't have a clue about kickstart or what all is involved.

I need money no doubt, but I thought if I got everything ready to "go live", I could get the money quickly.

I've been working on the project for almost 2 years!

Here what I've done so far.

I bought an Enders v2 then upgraded it.

I modeled the parts, printed them and fine tuned them until I'm satisfied with them.

Wrote a website, got a shopping cart and got everything ready to click a few buttons to start this business.

I started a clamshell vaccum machine build but stalled (too many things happening), just need to order a few items and finish it.

I've got 135 items packaged (in sandwich bags) ready to sale.

I've shown many of my products to locals to get a feel of their value.

I day I showed one on my products to the 1st 2 people I walked up to, they each bought one, so I'm very confident my products will sell.

Ant that product I didn't think would be the BIG seller!

I've got a few that will go viral (in my opinion)...

I'm ready to start production, just ran out of funds for a company to IM.

DIY IM would take all the money I have left (and then some).

So my next steps have to be carefully thought out.

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/3d-printing-tips--tricks/5d532602-451f-ba1d-ed76-b96f878be347%40optonline.net.

[Juan Posada]

What do you think your monthly sales volumes will be? Do you think your products will sell once per customer, or is it a "consumable" that needs to be replaced over time? Or will you be able to sell updated versions to repeat customers?

If the quantities are there I agree this sounds like a good crowdfunding candidate. 

Little keyboard, big typos!

---

From: 3d-printing-...@googlegroups.com <3d-printing-...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Dan Flemming <newmi...@gmail.com>
Sent: Thursday, July 14, 2022 5:48:41 AM
To: Kurt at VRFX <vr...@optonline.net>
Cc: 3D Printing Tips and Tricks <3d-printing-...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: Voron 2 R2 kit or Injection Molding machine?

 

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/3d-printing-tips--tricks/CAAKGtWroMoGzv3B8Opwr9zcMdm26HF2uiB0J3Ourn1LfJxGOKA%40mail.gmail.com.

[Dan Flemming]

Juan,

Sounds like a good question.

Some are consumable that wear out over time.

Others will only be a 1 time sale.

Quantities?

My expectation are high, in reality some items could flop and not sale very many.

I have 25 products.

Not including Tshirts (T's should sale, I've already sold 10+ by just wearing them to local events).

Add in 8 basic colors for each item and there's 200 products.

Then there's my android apps (3 of them, only 1 ready to sale at this time, 2 under construction).

And a few other "specialty" items I may offer (but don't expect much sales).

I'm planning to tour around to local locations, walk in and show what I've got and what they can do for them.

From a few local reactions I've show some of my products to, they will sale like hot cakes!

I'm hoping for millions, but I'd settle for 10's of 1000's...

[markni...@gmail.com]

Buster Beagle 3D has a great DIY injection molder that can be put together inexpensively: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HoSVPHVESiE&t=1102s

It seems to me that you will need both a 3d Printer, and an injection molder at some point.

If you watch all of Buster Beagles videos, you will see that he also makes his own molds using an inexpensive desk top CNC that can be bought off Amazon for a few hundred dollars.

The 3D Modeling is the hang up for most folks. If you're past that bottle neck you can also generate CNC Gcode from your existing solid models for molds.

[Juan Posada]

The problem with these machines is that the shot size is relatively small. Note that Dan is talking about ~50oz shot size. These "benchtop" machines are generally ~1oz. Some hobbyists run smaller "real" machines such as a Boy 15 or some of the smaller Arburgs in a home shop or a garage. 

Dan - one of the people who fit the description above is John Socha-Leialoha. John is highly technical and knows IM well. May I suggest you get in touch with him and get his input on what you are trying to accomplish. 

I know you said hundreds of thousands/millions. If you really are expecting sales quantities of each of your products to be in the thousands or higher, you really should not waste your time with 3D printing and figure out how to go with IM. There, I will suggest that you resist the urge to go to China and work with a local company who will respect your IP unless you have protected it and have the resources to defend it. 

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/3d-printing-tips--tricks/bc7ccc5b-959f-4bdf-8508-966f41a40653n%40googlegroups.com.

[Kurt at VRFX]

Hey Dan,

Am glad to see Juan agrees with me. Also, you mentioned you already have a website with a shopping cart, you should feel free to share that with us here.

Also, in regards to the KickStarter - it seems you've already done a lot of the leg work. Considering you've looked into pricing for IM.

Now, as for KickStarter - here's a short intro on it...

So, years ago it didn't exist. Now, let's say you're 20-something, and you got a band. In order to cut an album, you would need to pay to get recording studio time, a recording engineer, cut a master CD - then produce like a set of 1000 CD's of your album. And, maybe that cost might set you back $60K. And, back then - you had to cough up ALL that Cash to get it done. But, along comes KickStarter - and you No longer need to cough up that cash. You create a campaign, post some teaser MP3 files of your songs, and try to get backers. Your project goal would be $60K. In return, the backers would get a CD, or a set of 10 CD's, or maybe at "Exec Producer level" - the backer gets 100 CD's AND their name on the album as "Exec Producer".

But, understand - with KickStarter - its ALL or None. If you do NOT make your Goal - the campaign fails, and you get NO Money. However - if you make or Exceed the Goal, then you get the money and the project moves forward. Although, there are other platforms - like IndieGogo - which I believe you can get funding without reaching a full Goal. But, there Are caveats to that - which is more on your side of things...

Now - one more mention. As I did a KS campaign some years ago, which failed epicly! I later realized, its ALL about Social Media Marketing. Since, in most cases - simply posting a campaign on KickStarter - will NOT automatically get you backers. Unless, of course, its a 3D Printer campaign. So - you MUST Spread the word about your products in advance - via Social Media - build up a big SocMed campaign - and have several thousand followers - and only THEN should you launch your KS campaign.

Of course, these are my own insights. Others on here will probably chime in - and give more feedback...

-Kurt

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/3d-printing-tips--tricks/MW3PR16MB3867E8A86D1689542114FAC1A4889%40MW3PR16MB3867.namprd16.prod.outlook.com.

[Juan Posada]

There are of course now all kinds of services/companies/consultants that have popped up in the Kickstarter ecosystem that help people run successful campaigns. 

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/3d-printing-tips--tricks/03e183fe-10fa-88a0-03cc-8eac7ada2e0a%40optonline.net.

[markni...@gmail.com]

I agree with everything Juan stated.

To throw more than an ounce generally requires an extruder screw rather than a straight smooth ram.

Also the screw extruder is then actuated with a hydraulic system  rather than a hand operated lever.

Also considerable clamping force is needed with large throw molds.

A lot of useful work can be done on a 1 ounce throw, manual machine however.

[James Fackert]

Time is money, so it doesn't take much volume if it is predictable or guaranteed, to make injection molding the winner.

As an engineer, I am expected to guarantee cost and performance.

The sales department should have to guarantee sales numbers too, but nooooo....

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/3d-printing-tips--tricks/bc7ccc5b-959f-4bdf-8508-966f41a40653n%40googlegroups.com.

[Dan Flemming]

Wow,

I'm blown away at all the feedback and useful help!

Thanks!

I have contacted Buster Beagle 3D about his MX3 injector kit, it's right on the threshold for my biggest product (47g+- shot).

Most of my other plastic product would work well with it.

I have a compressor, drillpress and a welder (basic stuff to build anything I need for my project).

Also looked at the 318 cnc with an upgraded Makita for making aluminum molds (in my opinion 3D printed molds just are too much work).

I've used Autocad since 1989, way before windows came along.

I'm an engineer (without a degree) and have many years of experience in all kinds of metal design, mostly Structural & Misc Design & Drafting.

I wrote all my own design software!

I'm a trouble shooter, and most of my last 5+ years have been nothing but custom designs.

I've used Freecad for all my product modeling, Cura for Slicing & Octoprint for printing.

Even if I had enough money right now it would still take me 6 months to get everything completed and ready to sell!

This is a lot to do.

I'm 75% done, just need some luck to get it all finished...

Currently I only have enough money to buy either a Voron 3D printer OR injection molding machine (with a cnc, buy blank molds, pellets and other items needed).

I want the IM, but dang...

I'll have 2-3 more things I'll have to learn by trial & error!

I'm mentally exhausted!

It's like having Secretariat and don't have enough money to run in a race!

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/3d-printing-tips--tricks/CAN%2By%3DG1az9F2O%2Bq3neBBQcThGwZ2JW-xAJyZ0R%3Da3Xq2Y7izcg%40mail.gmail.com.

[Dan Flemming]

Oh I forgot,

The MX3 IM is air powered phuemactic cylinder, not a hand lever.

I also have a friend that owns a hydraulic business.

Might be a good choice, just a heck of a lot more work up front.

[Dan Flemming]

Agian my mind slips a gear...

Bet you can guess what type of products I'm doing now!

https://blindsquirrelbilliards.com/

All my plastic products are "turned off" in my shopping cart, until I'm ready to sell them.

I think there are currently 315 products in the shopping cart.

I bought a tshirt designer but couldn't get it to work (beyond my programming capabilities).

Be sure to read some of my pool stories!

Some are just hard to believe...

[Dan Flemming]

Sure got quite all of a sudden...

Some of my products will change the way pool is played forever!

A few are so good, I state "you just can't miss" if you follow instructions.

Yeah,

That's a BOLD statement!

The proof is in the product...

I use my products at home everyday and my pool game is very good, good enough it's hard to find local action.

If they know me, they won't gamble (there are a few exceptions, the pro level players, and they aren't sure if they'll win).

[LukeH]

Like any developmental project, I get that money is probably not an unlimited resource, and decisions have to be made between what is the optimal solution and what is actually needed to get to minimum viable product. 

Injection moulding is going to be fast, and the look of the product is going to be what customers expect in the market today. For plastic parts that are produced in quantity, it is, and will remain for at least the next decade or more, the fastest, highest quality (in terms of repeatable Quality Control), most cost effective solution.

A 3D printer is going to allow you to iterate and develop your product faster, and you can maybe hide the “3D Printed” look by using CF or glass fibre infused filament (I don’t think personally it makes the parts all that much stronger, if at all, but it hides the layer lines and improves dimensional accuracy).

I know 3D printing enthusiasts tend to try to 3D print their way out of every problem, and often that works, even if it is a little clumsy.

In the end the decision is yours. Maybe you can’t go with both pneumatic injection moulding and and a high-end Voron. Maybe you can. Maybe it is one or the other. Maybe it is manual Injection moulding and an Ender 3 (or an Elegoo Mars). Nobody on this forum is going to be able to give you a definitive answer to that conundrum.

[Kamesh M Sundaram]

In my opinion a couple of sidewinder x2 or kobra is much better than a Voron.

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/3d-printing-tips--tricks/a1dfc79e-b146-4081-8d56-f8d84357a143n%40googlegroups.com.