Need a CoreXY, help me find one for around $2500

[Scott R]

Good day everyone!

I'm looking for a ready to print 400 x 400 x 400 print area. A removable flexible steel sheet, like the Prusa mk3s, would be nice. Heated bed is a must. I'm really looking for a workhorse printer. Something that will just work every time. I'm not totally sure if what i want exists for the price. 

Thank you everyone for your time.

[Kurt Wendt]

Aren't the RailCore type machines around that price point???

-K

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[TobyCWood]

Railcore is not that large. Not sure if there is a RTP 400x400x400mm CoreXy or any other method machine out there for $2500. RTP at that size will likely be more than $4K. Probably around $10K!

Which makes me wonder if there is a market for someone who can do it... to use an open source design and source and build and sell them RTP.

[Kurt Wendt]

RTP?

A Kit??

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[TobyCWood]

RTP= Ready To Print.

IOWs not a kit.

[Alan Biocca]

Is 400 a good size for CoreXY? Didn't the Voron folks decide that 350 was about the max, as belts get too long, etc, and the advantages of CoreXY are lost at some size. 

Also at some point the machine won't fit through a standard doorway and that can be problematic. More than one builder has made a machine that turns out to be stuck in the room it was constructed in. :)

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[LukeH]

CoreXY machines at 400x400 and beyond are fine. Because of the design of the belt paths, with two separate belt paths in in opposing tension to prevent backlash, long belts aren’t an issue. I would even go so far as to suggest that the CoreXY design is one of the few you should even consider making bigger than 300x300. It should scale up to 600x600x600 without many design modifications at all, then even bigger with some design changes to accomodate the weight of the Y-carriage and sagging of the bed and frame (on really big CoreXY, often the bed is fixed, and the entire X-Y carriage moves up and down in Z, rather than the bed, since the carriage will weigh less than a really large bed).

The biggest problem with building really big printers is the lack of off-the-shelf parts for the bed. It’s not like you can go to Amazon or AliExpress and buy a 500x500 PEI coated magnetic bed sheet. That is probably why Voron standardised on 350mm as sort of the “large” unit.

Your average doorway is about 950mm wide, so a printer could theoretically be very large before that become an issue, although if someone need a printer that big, then I think they should probably be looking at a CoreXY belt printer with infinite printing in one axis. Could you imagine if someone took the Voron design and adapted it as a belt printer? That would be in impressive piece of kit…

[Alan Biocca]

The Voron folks have built larger CoreXY printers, I don't recall the size but it was approaching doorframe limits (seems like it might have been 600mm/24"), and that was probably before they called it Voron, and they said it wasn't a good compromise and don't recommend going beyond 350 now. Nero talks about it pretty often and I recall it being discussed in some detail during an interview with Max. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion of course, but they backed away from it after having experience doing it. Long belts bring their own set of issues with resonance and so on. Not to say it can't be done, but many things need to be scaled up to compensate for issues, and advantages of CoreXY are reduced.

Glass beds are not hard to source at larger sizes, that seems to be standard on many of the larger machines. Whambam flexible surfaces are available to 510mm so that's not a problem either.

Standard residence doorway clearance here is 690 without removing the door, a 500mm printer might be a problem depending on the design.

The Voron 2.4 can be built to 350 within their recommendations (and can be scaled and built to other sizes), but the parts cost without labor is approaching 2k or more, depending on the quality of components. There will be some quality kits soon, probably in the 2k+ region, there are some bargain quality kits now for a bit less. The 2.4 is a moving gantry CoreXY so is well suited for big sizes, and I think some are building it for 400x400 but I don't know that any kits are that large (but I haven't looked for one). Of course there is no factory support, not the kind of thing you want to bring into a workplace as you will end up with the job of supporting it. So it is not a solution for this search.

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[Scott Wells]

I just got the Daedalus (Commercialized version of the Railcore from Project R3D). The print volume is 310 x 300 x 345. It's sub $3k with a magnetic bed upgrade. Unfortunately the UPS guy wasnt careful delivering it yesterday (I literally watched him roll it up to my door) and I have a busted limit switch, so I cant print with it yet, but everything else about it is very polished. Once Im up and running I can share more.

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[Scott R]

thanks everyone for your response. looks like I'm building one then. don't really have the time, but I'll make time I guess. my I can claim Covid stress and get a few days off. LOL but back to the fun stuff. I was looking at the Daedalus, if it were available in the 400 x 400 x 400 I probably would have purchased it. So..... right now I've seen the RatRig V-Core 3 in the size I need, and you can spec out a Voron 2.4 in that size, I'm leaning toward the Voron as it stands. I do like the 30 series aluminum though that the Ratrig has. I'm trying to not make this into a giant project, I've been known for doing this, and to just get the pieces and assemble. Any suggestions would be great. 

thank you

[Edward Simpson]

I guess the bigest question is what do you need 400 x 400 x400 size for? There is a CR-10 variant that comes in that size, it'd be much slower than one of the Core-XY's metioned but it is nearly turn-key with only minor assembly required.

[Scott R]

I have doubts on the ability for Creality to make a turn-key printer. I'll be using this for some work projects too, and 400 gives me just enough room. 

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[TobyCWood]

Just imagine the forces on the Y axis for a Mendel that's got a bed 400mmx400mm!  Remember all that mass has to go back and forth.You'd have to go way slower then Mendels typically go which is 40-60mm/s.

[Kurt at VR-FX]

So - Andy - that CR-10 is a Mendel Variant??? I know - Bed-Slingers, gotta be careful how it runs - and speed, like REAL Speed is not an option!

Scott - too bad you don't have more like $200K to burn on your printer - otherwise - I got a REAL Suggestion for BIG and FAST!!!

Hint hint hint...

-K

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[FlowBot3D]

The Vivedino Troodon is exactly the machine you are describing. Voron style CoreXY in 400x400x500 configuration. I have 3 of them and they've been huge pains in the ass, but I got early release ones. There's a facebook group where they've put together some pretty serious modifications to bring it closer to the voron 2.4 spec, but with machined parts rather than 3d printed to account for the larger size machines. Klipper is also a popular mod, going away from the RepRapFirmware on the custom Duet inspired board. Tiny Machines will perform some of the mods and klipper install if you buy it from them and they have them in stock. I can't give a real solid recommendation based on my own experience, but I may be an exception. At that size you will 100% want the orbiter based direct drive extruder, as the bowden is just too long. 

[TobyCWood]

I took a look. Interesting. 

The Orbiter feeder is now std. I'd stick with RRF. 

[Mark Arlinghaus]

Hi Everyone,

I'm going to bump this thread a little bit because I am also looking for a large-ish 3D printer.  My minimum build size would be 300mm x 300mm in XY, and 200mm+ in Z.  I print mostly functional prototypes of various things and want them to be both relatively strong and able to survive outdoors for some period of time (i.e., I usually print with ABS and don't want to settle for PLA).  I'm a little worried that printing a large (300mm x 300mm) ABS part will require a heated chamber, as in actively heated (I think I've heard Ryan say 60C for ABS??) and not just passive bed heat captured in an enclosed chamber.  

To that end, I was initially trying to find a printer that had a true heated chamber (i.e., designed for a heated chamber, not just an add-on) and came across the Creatbot F430, has anyone heard of this?  So far, the lack of reviews from anyone that can be trusted (i.e., unbiased discussion in forums) is steering me away from that one, especially given the price (~$5k+ after duties, etc.).  I guess that defines my budget though, I'd be willing to spend up to $5k for a quality (i.e., no fuss), fully built printer that was ready to go out of the box with a legitimate heated chamber.   

Other than the Creatbot, I haven't found any 300x300mm printers with a heated chamber, although the Fusion3 F410 is close (thoughts on that one?).  So in that case, I'm thinking I will buy a printer with a non-heated chamber and add my own chamber heat.  Based on the earlier comments in this thread, it seems like both the Daedalus and the Voron seem to fit the bill.  Which one do you all think is the best (assuming that the Voron was assembled by someone who was patient and qualified).  Does one printer have a better design, or better components?  Would one printer be more conducive to being enclosed in a heated chamber?  Are there any other printers that would be better/comparable?

Thanks,

Mark

To add a little background:  I bought into the 3D printing world back on 2012 with a wooden Replicator.  I was pretty disappointed at first but after upgrading the 5V regulator, extruder and HBP (thanks to the crowd support for those) it turned into a nice and reliable printer.  I later put the printer into a cabinet with a 100W incandescent lightbulb for a heater (and a nice light) and relocated the electronics and filament spool outside of the cabinet.  The chamber isn't super hot, but gets to be about 115F during a print.  I can print ABS parts that fill the build plate and keep them stuck down with no cracks, but I do see noticeable distortion in the Z-axis for prints that have long layer times.  Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think this happens because by the time the extruder comes around for the next layer, the previous layer has already solidified and shrunk, so the parts always get wider at the top.  For example, if you were to print a 6" x 6" cube the sides would go up at an angle rather than perfectly vertical, especially for the first 1/4" or so.  My thought was that with a bigger build plate, the layer times will be even longer, exacerbating that issue, hence the reason I was asking for a hotter chamber.

[bkaufm...@gmail.com]

Lots of people printing ABS in Railcore world. If you are just at 60 you don't need active heating. For another printer, I print ABS all the time in a passively heated external chamber and do not have issues. Given the fact that RC is a 110 heater and large, the frame-based enclosure should be even better. Just opt for the metal upgrades - at some of them do improve print quality. if you need preassembled then maybe look at Daedalus.

[Alan Biocca]

The Vorons print ABS just fine without heated chambers. The build plate heats the chamber quite adequately with a good enclosure. A Voron Trident or V2.4 model at 300x300 or 350x350  could do the job.

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[Kurt at VR-FX]

Mark - as I was reading your posting/reply - by the time I got down thru the 2nd paragraph - Immediately the Fusion3 printers came to mine. Then, on para 3 - Bingo - you mentioned them.

They are a SOLID Co. - w/Solid 3DP's - and are a truly standup group of folks. I DO know them personally. And, they also sometimes reply and post in this forum. So, YEAH - if their F410 fits your budget - HELL Yeah - GO FOR IT! Seriously!

I should post the video interview I did with them (its on YouTube) - and its when they 1st released the F400 machine at the Inside 3DP Expo in NYC (I'm now located in Cali - but, was living in NY back then) - and their machine was Awesome when I saw it released! Insanely Solid, Great design - I believe even some designs were implemented based upon chat in the prior forum, including input from Sir Jetguy - who was rather kinda famous in the 3DP world back then (more so than even ME) - even though he has now been silent for about 3 years now (very Unlike me!).

Should you Drop your Cash on an F410 - I'd LOVE to hear your experience with it!

-Kurt

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[Mark Arlinghaus]

Thanks for the replies everyone (apparently they were all going to my Spam folder).  Sounds like I have some soul-searching to do.  I think what I would ideally like to do is build a 350mm Voron and then add some liquid cooling and a chamber heater.  On the other hand, these days it seems like my time is more valuable than money, which makes the Fusion an attractive option.  Anyhow, thanks for taking the time to give me some advice, I appreciate it.

Mark

[Luke Hartfiel]

I haven’t built a Voron, but I have built plenty of other printers (CoreXY and Delta) from scratch and from kits before.

The bulk of the time is in design and logistics (ordering the parts), not in the actual construction of the device.

If you have all the parts, and have a proven design, then you can assemble and commission a printer in maybe 4 hours no problem. It is when you design as you build that it takes a long time (designing as you go is what we call “bad engineering”).

Given that Voron comes with a detailed parts lists, and assembly videos, it seems like a simple build.

If your time is short, then a Voron is still viable as long as you don’t try to start building before all of the parts arrive. For a 300x300 unit, you can just order the whole thing as a kit from several suppliers, and just assemble in an afternoon.

On 15 Sep 2021, at 11:33 pm, Mark Arlinghaus <markarl...@gmail.com> wrote:

Thanks for the replies everyone (apparently they were all going to my Spam folder).  Sounds like I have some soul-searching to do.  I think what I would ideally like to do is build a 350mm Voron and then add some liquid cooling and a chamber heater.  On the other hand, these days it seems like my time is more valuable than money, which makes the Fusion an attractive option.  Anyhow, thanks for taking the time to give me some advice, I appreciate it.

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[Alan Biocca]

I've seen live videos of most of the Voron model builds (and many others) and the build time is 8-24 hours or more. The 0.1 and 2.4 models are harder than usual to build, the 0.1 due to the small size and constrained parts, and the 2.4 due to the complexity of a moving CoreXY Gantry. The Switchwire (a bed slinger) and Trident would be faster. I think the best choice at least for my purposes is the Trident which is CoreXY with three-leadscrew moving bed Z. Collecting parts is a challenge, there are shortages all over, and shipping times are not all short, at least for better quality components. Printing good quality ABS parts for the Vorons can be a challenge if you don't have a suitable printer. There are some kits and partial kits that help on the procurement side, but they are often in short supply as well.  The Prusa MK3 is also about an 8 hour build, and that printer is simpler than most from-parts builds. Many available printers have shorter builds but they come partially or mostly pre-assembled. I don't think I've seen any complete build from parts that was anywhere near as short as 4 hours. The wiring often takes as long as the mechanical build, so having a prebuilt harness is a huge time (and error) saver. If there are any problems in the configuration or the electronics the debugging can take awhile as well, and may lead to waiting for replacement parts. If your time is valuable and you want to avoid schedule risk you will need to choose your printer from a well supported (near-local) source that can respond quickly and that includes shipping replacement parts as well as responding to support requests. 

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[Mark Arlinghaus]

Are the kits a good way to go? I thought I read in other forums that they sometimes contain low grade part substitutes and they suggested to source your own components, which sounded onerous.

Mark

Mark

[Luke Hartfiel]

Obviously kit quality varies from supplier to supplier, but often they use lower quality parts to save on cost, which is why people tell you to source components from elsewhere.

Almost all kits, if assembled correctly, will work and print, but the problem is reliability. I’ve had kits where parts started to fail in the first week, and after a year or so, all that is left of the kit is some aluminium extrusion, a few stepper motors and some fasteners - all the rest has been replaced due to failure.

I’d also say that no matter how “complex” a CoreXY motion system seems, they really aren’t. Sure they have more parts than a bedslinger, but that is just “more”, not “more complex”.

If a person can assemble an IKEA bookshelf, then they have all the skills they need to assemble a 3D printer. I’ve been assembling computers and other devices my whole life, but I’ve seen a 10-year-old assemble a CoreXY printer in a day, so it isn’t that big a hill to climb :)

On 16 Sep 2021, at 7:47 am, Mark Arlinghaus <markarl...@gmail.com> wrote:



[Alan Biocca]

The kit's quality depends on who puts it together and what components they sourced to include and how well they understand the tradeoffs. LDO kits have been well received and so are hard to find. So far only the 0.1 LDO has been released and they sell out instantly. The 2.4 LDO is reportedly coming soon, and the Trident shortly after. 

The unknown vendors who grab the BOM list from the website and stuff whatever they can find from the marketplace in China in a box and call it a kit are not the ones to consider.

One way to approach a kit is to change the parts you don't like. It saves time and money compared to sourcing a full collection. Kit quality has reportedly been improving. I'd consider Kits from vendors who put their name and reputation behind them before no-names.

Even the folks who say the kits are no good are generally buying smaller kits of parts to save time and money. 

If you want a kit from a company that will support you perhaps the Railcore is something to consider. I think the Voron designs are a bit more polished, but the Railcores are very solid machines, and generally more off-the-shelf with top of the line parts, and less dependence on printed parts.

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[Mark Steele]

I just completed my Voron 2.4 as a kit from Formbot and a wire harness from Linneo. Well under the $2500 price mark. All the parts were of good quality and fit. 

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[Alan Biocca]

Good to hear specific results. I think Tom Sanladerer had a Formbot kit as well. Also I think Nero evaluated the components in one during one of his youtube videos.

Any estimate of time to assemble, calibrate and get fully operational?

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