3D Printing Today #375 The CR30 and Naomi Wu.

[Joseph Larson]

I didn't see a topic thread for #375, so I'll start it. At least for this topic. I was listening to the podcast today ( bit behind) and when yawl (Andy and Whitney) asked why Creailty is deciding to embrace open source. You batted around a couple of reasons, but somehow managed to ignore the very real, and very obvious reason why Creality has decided to take up the cause of Open Source with this printer.

Naomi Wu.

Naomi is a champion of Open Source in China. You can see her in this presentation before she was hired by Creality talking passionately about why adhering to all the tenants of Open Source is good for manufacturing in China.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mt1OLgGIqhc

You're talking about NAOMI WU's Printmill CR30 3D printer, and you somehow managed not to mention her at all. Why? You were even going so far as to ask questions about the feature where the answer is literally "Naomi Wu" and neither one of you could say it. Why? She has been very public (as she always is) about the fact that Creality didn't want to open source these designs that they were (for once) counting the R&D cost into the cost of their printer, and how she had to fight them to get them to even agree to release them at all, let alone when they met a certain funding goal, and you seemed entirely unaware of that. There a Naomi Wu shaped blindspot in your vision.

Listen, I get it. She doesn't look like any of us. She doesn't think like us. She can be abrasive and loud. And when she wants something, she don't stop and doesn't care what she's got to do to get it. But, then again, if we weren't so quick to dismiss her because of the way she looks, maybe she wouldn't have to act the way she does.

Naomi is an asset to our community. At least she can be, and she should be, and we need to stop treating her like she doesn't exist. The problems not her. She did her part. She did a fine job of it too. She's proven herself time and time again. (She's also made an ass of herself, but who here hasn't?) She deserves recognition. She deserves her props.

[Ray Price]

+1 well said Joe

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[markni...@gmail.com]

Yep, Naomi is DEFINITLY an asset to our community.

[jst...@gmail.com]

Was thinking about this too when I was listening to the episode this morning. 

[TobyCWood]

I never mentioned it for a couple of reasons. First off I know first hand that Creality has ALWAYS supported open source. How do I know? 13 Ender 3s told me(and a CR-6SE and 2 CR10s). Next reason was IMO Bill Steele is more closely involved in the actual design and  as such deserves more recognition. Third I have seen the vids and pics with the actual design team and she aint there. 

The only thing that I see that she has done for the CR30 was getting the word out. OK... I grant that she did well with that. Perhaps she actually did do the convincing of the Creality management to try to produce the CR30.Do I feel I need to talk about it? No. There's more important things to talk about related to the Engineering of 3D Printing then Naomi Wu.

I DO find it intriguing how you Joe... another Youtuber... seem to be so infatuated! You think she deserves recognition and props (whatever that is)? Well Joe,  you have your YouTuber show... you talk about it! We have also never mentioned any other Youtuber (including YOU) on our podcast. Interesting how you never bothered to say anything about that before! 

[markni...@gmail.com]

It seems to me Bill Steele is trying to be printer agnostic.

He is after all selling the 3D Chameleon, usable on either.

He also offered the same help to the dip shits at iFactory, who still haven't shipped my printer, despite apparently having enough cash to hire half of Europe.

The CR30 would never have happened without Noami Wu.

[TobyCWood]

That might be true about her pushing to get Creality to do the CR30, but it could also have been the other way around. 15 years of daily interaction with Chinese electronics producers has taught me the culture's skills in duplicity are unrivaled. If you fully believe everything you see and everything they tell you then it's on you. But for sure the CR30 would definitely not have happened without Bill Steele's license to his patents. Which he tells me he grants openly. (BTW, he also tells me he has no ambition to turn the 3DChameleon into a high volume product.)

It's also worth noting that there is no guarantee at all that Creality will maintain the CR30 as an ongoing product. At $1000 a pop, it's their most expensive machine and the demand may not meet their criteria as a product regardless of what a Youtuber says. I did notice that at least one other Youtuber was not all that kind in his review of the CR30. My time with the iFactory demonstrated known issues with leading and trailing edges which significantly limit the breadth of use cases a Belt machine can do well. Objects that are higher in the X axis are a real challenge for it due to the issues of leading and trailing edges. If the Belt printer cannot meet the market need as the Ender 3 did it will not be able to maintain sales and if sales are slow the $1K CR30 will likely vanish. There are hints that Creality may see this. For example, unlike other KS campaigns and producers of new 3D Printers, I see little to no talk at all for how the CR30 will evolve. We've already seen how some Chinese based companies can turn on a dime and stop selling a product for whatever reason(e.g., the Predator). So lets say Creality sees the gamble of the CR30... It then makes perfect sense to find someone else who is outside of Creality to take the blame for the failure.

[TobyCWood]

Another sign of potential problems with selling a Belt/Infinite Z 3D Printer...

Go search for Conveyor belt 3D Printer in Aliexpress. Nuthin.

[LukeH]

This episode never showed up in the Apple podscast app where I live. I had to go look for it elsewhere.

[jst...@gmail.com]

 "First off I know first hand that Creality has ALWAYS supported open source. How do I know? 13 Ender 3s told me(and a CR-6SE and 2 CR10s). "

They weren't though, there was that whole boycott for a couple weeks over them not being open source. That's when Naomi literally negotiated with Creality  to get them to be open source-ish. You guys have this weird chip on your shoulders about people on youtube. Failing to acknowledge her existence because she's a youtuber and probably at least a bit because she dresses the way she likes, really feels pretty off-putting and sexist or something. Just give me a bad vibe. I'm not trying to be an ass or rude, just sharing the way it comes across. 

[markni...@gmail.com]

As with any new innovation, it takes time to trickle down.

If you take a look at all the various types of conveyor belts used every day, from the check out counter at the grocery store to the luggage conveyor at the airport, many types are made in huge quantities. Many are made in China.

The iFactory boys just took an off the self Tronxy core X Y printer and converted it to belt use.

It is absolutely true that it could not have been done without the pioneering work of Bill Steele, and others, but it's always like that. We all stand on the shoulders of giants.

Look at 20mm Chinese linear rod and any other "custom" components in the iFactory. It's all basic off the shelf hardware from the China catalog.

It's just a matter of time until low cost belt printers are available from China. It is inevitable.

[TobyCWood]

Sorry you have "a bad vibe". Again we never name or talk about any you tubers... for that matter we never talk about any other podcasters either! I admit we may mention something that is on Cable TV every now and then like Battlebots, or the TV show Brooke Drumm was in. I recall also mentioning Forged in Fire once or twice and I'd love to talk about Tim Allens new show, Assembly Required. We did do a joint segment with a couple of guys out of a Chicago Makerspace at MRRF in 2019... but other than that we keep our focus on news information outlets and our own hands on experiences. When we do talk about a Maker it is related to what they have contributed to the public with sources such as Thingiverse or GitHub and based on that I see nothing that motivates me to feature Naomi Wu (or whatever her real name is) on our podcast. If that annoys you or gives you a bad vibe well I cannot help that.

[TobyCWood]

I really hope that you are correct. While I have seen and experienced first hand the underhanded duplicity of some producers in China as well as extreme hubris, and resistance to admit or fix mistakes... I DO have GREAT respect for the culture's industriousness and production brilliance. I know from first hand experience with these producers that if they see something they know works and can make a buck they will jump on it real fast. 

The majority of HW components for a Belt based 3D Printer are easily all available off the shelf. The belts however have to be custom ordered in qty and it's the supply chain for the custom sizing that is the bottleneck. We saw this back in 2019 with the sheet steel belt for the White Knight. The iFactory people say the belts are their trickiest bottleneck. Add to that the fact that we do not actually have long term durability information on the belts. IME the place where the belts are bonded is a weak point and any wear I saw was on the threads at that joint in the belt.

OTOH... I don't know if the episode has hit the feed yet but for one of them we featured a Belt 3D Printer which used a sanding belt and it looked very viable to us.

Then there's SW... There's three Slicer SW apps that support Belt machines and they are available for free. You can easily get Reprap FW or Marlin 2 to support it so it's not a FW issue.

So... if just about everything can be had right now for it then what's holding it back from taking off as a product that is available by any of dozens of inexpensive 3DP knockoff producers? IMO, and based on my experience my bet is they are all holding back and waiting to see; A. how many Creality sells and B. How the community overcomes it's limitations. Solving the tricky issues so the machines can be easily setup and used without expensive support is a significant risk and I'd bet none of them want to take the gamble of losing face by jumping on a possible fail. 

Low cost Belt Printers from China are only inevitable if the Belt 3D Printers are profitable. At $1K per sale they already know that they are not likely to sell very many of them compared to the Ender3 or the CR10.

[Joseph Larson]

Andy, it feels like you're getting a bit heated. I can understand that. I did kind of attack you in my first post. I apologize. It simply seemed odd to me that neither you nor Whitney seemed to be able to find an answer when the answer seemed obvious to me. And I hoped I would be able to help you get over a bias that is all too common in our community and is, I feel, holding us back. 

I do have to correct one thing. You say you never mentioned me on your show? But I've actually been on your show. Remember? You had me do a segment, and you kindly even aired it, even though I don't think it was very good. That was super nice of you. I also remember you talking about the experiments that either Tom Salander or Stefan did in relation to 3D printing strength. I don't remember for sure, but you know your catalog better than I do. The 3D Printing youtube scene is an active resource for people, it's kinda hard not to talk about them from time to time.

Now, I appreciate the suggestion that I talk about Naomi on my channel. I have mentioned her a few times in the past in a few videos, and even dedicated a chunk of a blog post about her when she got doxed by a news agency. https://www.3dpprofessor.com/2018/04/11/anet-a8-fire-risk-and-marlin-upgrade-video-savethesexycyborg/

I also recently jumped on a chat with Geeky Faye and Billie Ruben and spoke at length about many topics including OddJay's amazing success and getting on the cover of Make Magazine and, yes, I believe Naomi Wu got a mention in there, too. We also talked about how STEAM is generally denied to girls and minority groups and explored the reasons for that. It was a very enlightening discussion.

https://youtu.be/j9JQehUXtWQ

When I get my CR30 built, I suspect she'll defiantly get a mention. But not because she's a fellow youtuber, but for her work on the design and admiration side of the printer's production, same as I'd talk about Brook Drumm or Karl Brown.

(PS Props (n) - [Slang] Due sense, credit, respect. https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/props )

[markni...@gmail.com]

In my prior post, I wasn’t randomly speculating on the wide availability of conveyor belts.

I was thinking of self-sourcing a belt printer and bought the following belt from eBay: https://www.ebay.com/itm/Ammeraal-Beltech-Inc-Transfer-Short-Conveyor-Belt-16-4-x-14-46079/161210963084?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649

If you look carefully, it appears to be the identical belt or very similar to the one in Andy’s iFactory picture he posted.

Now I had no way on knowing what belt they would choose, but after listening to one of the iFactory creators go on about what a difficult engineering problem he solved with his belt choice, it made me wish I’d just sent him my eBay link.

The Kickstarter raised 172,588 euros, which is $203,196.48 US Dollars. Now if they pay their 11 employees $31,200.00 per year, that equals $343,200.00. That is about $140,000.00 more than they raised.

Call me skeptical if you will, but in my experience, when Kickstarter creators burn through cash like $h*t through a tin horn, they often run out of money before filling all Kickstarter rewards.

If that happens, here’s what you need: a Tronxy x5sa pro;  https://www.amazon.com/Printer-Structure-Industrial-Linear-Integrated/dp/B07WVHYWGG/ref=sr_1_2?crid=VAACV3TG2XE6&dchild=1&keywords=tronxy+x5sa+pro&qid=1616713205&sprefix=Tronxy%2Caps%2C194&sr=8-2

Some nice eBay 20mm rail for the rollers: https://www.ebay.com/itm/SBR20-1000mm-20mm-Fully-Supported-Linear-Motion-Rail-Shaft-Steel-Rod-Slide-Rods/131646303929?hash=item1ea6bb2eb9:g:ywEAAOxyW1NREV5d

Belt from above or other source.

I may do a build along with Mark video series, and post it to Youtube, since that seems to be Andy’s favorite medium for entertainment content.

[jst...@gmail.com]

I'm having a "don't meet your heroes" moment here. I know the show, I've been an avid listener for years. I know your limits. I still listen to "Makers on Tap" based on your episode/s at MRRF. Nobody has asked you to feature her. Just acknowledge. You blew her off months back on a segment where there was a question of her being on the box, then again today. Naomi (who cares if that's her real name, she's Chinese, they all have their made up American names. That doesn't make her any less of a human) fights her own battles, and I'm sounding like the white knight here... so I'm signing off. I'm just disappointed about common knowledge being ignored for no good reason. 

[Joseph Larson]

So, this conversation has generated a lot of offline discussion from a lot of people, and there's some definite misunderstanding going on. So, to avoid misrepresenting myself here, let me say a few things.

Growing up I had to put up with being the outsider, the weirdo, the one who was excluded from the clubs and groups and cliques. I know what loneliness feels like. And I know a lot of people in this community come from the a similar place. Now, for some that may become an excuse to make your own space and treat it with exclusivity, to be able to shut out others the way they were shut out. But for me, I decided I would never let anyone else feel loneliness I felt when I was excluded. I made it a goal in my life to be open and welcoming, to never gatekeep, except to keep that gate open.

Now, for the record, Naomi's content is not really my thing. Big 'ol store bought bolt-ons in tiny bikinis... no thank you. But just because it's not for me doesn't mean she's bad and doesn't mean I get to mumble about her behind her back. And, in fact, I didn't. I talked to her about it, and in talking I actually built a friendship with her. She knows I don't approve of her videos, but she also knows I don't judge her for it and I will still welcome her with open arms. Her, or anyone else wants to be a part of this community regardless of race, gender, creed, or orientation.

This community will only benefit from more diversity. I walk into a monochromatic room and lament the voices I'm not hearing. That means I sometimes have to follow people whose content I cannot stand to watch or whos personalities I clash with. And maybe that's partially because I consider myself a leader in this community, and I can't afford to ignore someone just because I don't like the way they look or I might miss when they do something noteworthy and important. I'm not saying most of you have to follow her if you don't like her. But I feel I am richer for it.

[markni...@gmail.com]

Well come on Joe, now that you've teased us, what was the issue?

Was it because you were a nerd? Many of us can relate to that.

Was it because your mom sewed your pants out of old flour sacks? That's little more serious.

Come on, spill the beans.

[TobyCWood]

Could you start a new thread with this?

[TobyCWood]

Wow. Reads like a knee jerk to me!

Exactly what common knowledge are you referring to???  I do not watch her vids although I have seen a few moments of one or two. Not something I see value in. A lot of unboxing stuff(while wearing racy clothing in the 2 vids I looked at). So I looked up all her posts on Thingiverse. Some fashion related stuff, (along with some vids that a teenage boy would love) but nothing that I see as high value. I did like the shoes, those were cool.
I've never seen a forum post from her. Never heard of anything we all would use that was invented or codeveloped by her. So jstmnl, ENLIGHTEN ME!