Voron tool changers

[bron...@gmail.com]

have you guys looked at any of the voron tool changers

they have some very well thought out fast tool changers

one for the Trident is very similar to to the Prusa XL called the Dakash v2

but the voron 2.4 has a solid mounted bed and the carriage moves in xyz with belts in all axis to prevent vibrations from warped screws and its crazy fast

here is the Github for the tap changer

https://github.com/viesturz/tapchanger

thought there might be some useful info in this community that could help along the way with the prusa XL

some people have as many as 6 tools on their machines and they seem to be adopting Orcaslicer   which is of course a Prusa slicer and bambu studio derivative 

I think this will be my next build 

[Scott Wells]

I think this is a separate project, been watching this guy slowly do his voron TC

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NjSd5Up5yBA

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[bron...@gmail.com]

that looks like similar hardware design but its Marlin rather than Klipper

[bron...@gmail.com]

this is the Dakash v2 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FFkFk6G2nl0

I was going to try and adapt this to my railcore but I am just going to build another machine its time I upgraded anyways

[John Mueller]

Thanks, I need to work on my 2.4 it will no longer home correctly. So this might be a good excuse! 

[Rob Hall]

You should look at the tap changer then. 

Unless you want to sell your voron 

[John Mueller]

When it works it is a really good machine, the linear rails alone cost more thelan my house! Probably... Lol 

[vrfx]

Funny Stuff John - sell your Rails and you can finance a NEW HOUSE!!!!!!

[3D Printing Tips and Tricks]

Awesome!

If there’s more like this than Toolchangers won’t fade away the way belt printers did.

[Rob Hall]

Tool changers aren't going to fade away they are going to be the future of 3d printing hopefully prusa sticks with their tool changer platform  as long as they have the mk3 

Companies like Prusa and Duet and E3d are making the hard stuff simple and doing the development for the others who are probably going to cost down the systems like creality and bambu.  

And groups like the voron team. Which I really should have paid more attention too. They are making alot of interesting stuff.  

It's the best way for multiple color/materials even 2d printers use multiple heads for each color. It's just finally get to the point where people have built the systems to make it do able.

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[John Mueller]

I do have actual need for tool changers, shocked I don't have one yet. I probably need to purge a few machines off!

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[vrfx]

Yeah Rob - Voron team is COOL - I went out to Dinner with them - and my buddy Vishal - after OC Maker Faire this past fall. GOOD Stuff indeed!!!

The 3D Printing will just Keep moving forwards - due to folks like the Voron people and even folks like Andy - with this forum of his and his podcast!

The Momentum WILL NOT STOP!!!!!!!!!!!!

-K

[bron...@gmail.com]

I built my rail core a few years ago and figured I was good had my core xy machine and not much else was going on they have been working with alot of companies and getting some interesting stuff done

[bron...@gmail.com]

so I found a Voron 2.4 on Facebook market place for Cheep

so I have been printing parts to build a tool changer pretty stocked I should have 2 tools up and running soon and adding tools via canbus makes it really easy to add more  loooking at doing 5 maybe 6 tools

eventually parts are on order for the first 4  looking at around $50-100 depending on choices per tool

 

[John Mueller]

That looks like a proper barn find! I hope you scold the previous owner for that. Should be fully against the law. 

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[Rob Hall]

He has 2 more trident 350 vorons for sale 

Super nice guy.  Gave me a bunch of extra parts with it. 

I couldn't fund purchasing all 3 so I just bought the one I wanted 

[John Mueller]

Nice find! 

[bron...@gmail.com]

I didn't scold him but I told him I am going to build a tool changer and that there is tool changer designs available for the Tridents as-well 

[bron...@gmail.com]

https://youtube.com/shorts/HB455huATts?feature=share

hers a update I got it to dock properly waiting on parts to build a second tool

[Rob Hall]

https://youtube.com/shorts/epu75GypBBo?si=8NzgvgCGaA4roGEI

Next update. We have tools changing 

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[3D Printing Tips and Tricks]

Watched ur vid. Yeah the E3d takes less time, but so what. If this works it’s freakin awesome!

Looked at the other vid with the Bambu. Why are you doing a prime pillar and a prime wipe?

[Rob Hall]

Not sure what you mean I don't do prime pillars 

On any of my bambu stuff. 

And I only have 2 vids on YouTube maybe a video I posted from someone else

My voron hasn't printed anything yet. And my Bambu rarely does multi color stuff as it's painfully slow. Hence why I am building a tool changer

If your E3d is faster that's awesome I have not tweaked it at all its just at the point of functional so I am hoping to get a tool change to around 10 seconds.  But before I worry about that I need to make it work next thing to do is set the offsets for all the 2 tools and then get each tool calibrated and printing. Parts for more tools are on the way.  Should have 4 by the end of the month.   Also the black tool has a full NEMA 17 pancake motor on it and needs to have it's dock moved to the left side of machine so that I can get the docks closer together with out contacting the motor.

And I have lots to learn about the klipper configs there is alot here I just implemented and don't understand yet.  

Which is probably a good thing meaning that this is doable for other people too 

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[3D Printing Tips and Tricks]

I see now a bunch of other vids come up with yours.

Like the E3d, the approach you’re taking with the Voron does not hamstring the user with sensors. As such you’ll be able to take a tool out of a parking place by hand while printing. This comes in very handy in practice. The XL  won’t let you do that.

[Rob Hall]

Yes.  But at the same time the machine knows what tool head is on the gantry

Which is very nice and it will pause for certain problems regarding docking

I am very impressed at how much work has gone into the this setup.  I wish I could take credit for it. I am just building someone else's design and documenting a little and talking about it to help others that want to go down this path if I can do it anyone can

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[Rob Hall]

I st a update docks for tools 3 and 4 are mounted tools are built and assembled

Justin st need to be wired and setup in klipper

[3D Printing Tips and Tricks]

Looking awesome. Thanks for sharing!

[Rob Hall]

There are designs available for the Trident aswell

Look up the dakash v2 tool changer 

It works very similar to the prusa xl

With the 2.4 it is utilizing the Gantry to make the tool change happen.

On Fri, Mar 29, 2024, 6:05 PM Bryan Murphy <bmurp...@gmail.com> wrote:

Looks great. I'm really interested in this.  Any reason why a Voron 2.4 over a Trident?  I would think the time saved raising/lowering the bed on the Trident would be significant.  Either way I'm jealous.

Bryan

On Sat, Mar 23, 2024 at 4:29 PM bron...@gmail.com <bron...@gmail.com> wrote:

https://youtube.com/shorts/mAYET8Me65Y?si=UVPdiCQphSyoAKE_

more progress I am going to start calibrating soon

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[Kurt The 3D Printer GUY!]

Yeah - I think its Way Cool that you did each tool in a different color - certainly adds FLAIR!!!

-K

[Rob Hall]

It's mostly to keep track of the different types

Every tool has a different hotend and one has a different extruder

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[Kurt The 3D Printer GUY!]

Makes Perfect sense to me Sir!

[Bryan Murphy]

Looks great. I'm really interested in this.  Any reason why a Voron 2.4 over a Trident?  I would think the time saved raising/lowering the bed on the Trident would be significant.  Either way I'm jealous.

Bryan

On Sat, Mar 23, 2024 at 4:29 PM bron...@gmail.com <bron...@gmail.com> wrote:

https://youtube.com/shorts/mAYET8Me65Y?si=UVPdiCQphSyoAKE_

more progress I am going to start calibrating soon

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[bron...@gmail.com]

there is a version for the Trident called the Dakash v2 basicly the same as the prusa xl and there is work on a lift bar setup for this style to work on a trident aswell which I am watching closely as it might be a good candidate to work on my railcore machine I chose the 2.4 because theres a bit more flexibility with tools the dakash v2  only has one type of setup  where as I am using 4 different hot ends and 2 different extruders for testing I will probably change a few things.  I have already found a issue with the Bambu hotends they are too short for probing to be reliable 

[bron...@gmail.com]

https://youtube.com/shorts/HL83Ed7rsv0?feature=share 

well we have it printing 2 colors lots of tuning to go but its getting there

Andy can you share some of your macro's for the tool changer would be good to maybe convert them to work with Klipper

I am starting to get to know Klipper a bit better I still prefer the reprap firmware but I defineatley see the advantages to Klipper allowing for

very complicated and distributed systems

I would like to find a way to purge all hotends that will be used at the start of the print so that they are all ready and setup with the same retraction as the slicer does when it disables the tool

I know klipper can do this as it heats up only the hotends in use just not sure what code does it

[3D Printing Tips and Tricks]

Which Macros are you thinking about? If I post them all it'll take up a lot of space.

Actually, your best bet is simply to dig around the E3D resources for their TC. All is there. As far as the Prusa XL, most are hidden in the FW. So much for Open Source.

[Rob Hall]

Ok I will dig around 

A bit I think I found a way 

To make what I want happen in the start g code 

I am hoping to find a way to do it completely from klipper or mostly anyway I like to keep my start gcode in a macro on the machine to make it easier to switch slicers 

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[Rob Hall]

I was able to print this 2 color test I made up 

It's hairy and that needs to be tuned up

Any suggestions for files and procedures will definitely be helpful 

But I plan on spending a fair amount of time on temp settings and retraction 

[3D Printing Tips and Tricks]

What slicer are you using?

You should try to retract out of the melt zone when the tool is parked and disabled. Also, it looks like the two objects overlapped each other. You don't want to do that. You want them to be two completely separate objects that do not overlap.

[bron...@gmail.com]

I am retracting out of the melt zone although I can probably pull up a bit more or a bit faster and they are seperate objects one is slightly shorter than the other its just 2 test cubes merged in prusa slicer wasn't a very serious test just working on making sure tools change reliably

I am sure most of my problem here is temps being way to high and once I get the stoppers for the nozzles made that will help to one advantage to this is it lowers the tool into the parking spot so a small silcone pad on spring steel can be put under the nozzle 

[3D Printing Tips and Tricks]

IME... nozzle blockers or stoppers don't work to prevent drooling at all. If there's any material within the melt zone it will drool down and when the tool unparks it will leave a string as it pulls away from the stopper.

[Rob Hall]

This is the exact same gcode file only change is the nozzle stoppers 

It's still in progress and I know it's not the same red filament I ran out of that 

But there is 0 stings on either color

I am shocked I didn't think they would have that much of a effect.  

I am not sure what caused the shift at the bottom though as it's still printing fine and there have been no tool change issues at all

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[Rob Hall]

Andy I strongly suggest you reach out to some of the guys on the stealth changer discord or even the voron tool changer discord.

https://github.com/DraftShift

Here is the GitHub link for probably the most active group of guys building tool changer stuff it's also a group of people not just one guy. So it's making amazing progress.

The discord is very welcoming and helpful.

If you want more info or details about my build please ask.

 I know your doing a segment on voron tool changers. I really would love if you could also. Ask people to comment on the Orca slicer GitHub and get them to add multi tool capabilities we have a open issue about that just trying to get support for it

Prusa Slicer is on Cura is workable but every slicer seems to have something missing that another slicer has but none of them can get it all together.   

Tool changing is the future of FDM I think and it would be great if we can show the devs of these otherwise great tools there is a user base interested in this and these tools are needed

[Rob Hall]

https://github.com/SoftFever/OrcaSlicer/issues/2050#issuecomment-2075216212

Here is the link to the Orca slicer GitHub issue 

[Ed Street]

I just reviewed the segment today discussing the Voron tap changer.  In fact, I did several and think I am caught up now. I have to say I think there is a lack of understanding of the printer design due to the comments in relation to Z.

I also had trouble following along with the full contact supports in f360 and blender segments, but then I was powder coating while listening to the episode.  Are there any plans for a video segment on that?  Any plans to list it for shapr3d, or onshape?  (it should be the most simple of all of the programs)

[Rob Hall]

I also found it a little bit lacking 

But maybe they recorded it when I made my first post. There is some very interesting stuff going on in the voron tool changing world

There is a tool changer for the Trident that's faster than the Prusa XL and uses a similar lock system as the XL. 

The XL really looks like it was based on the voron Trident anyway 

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[Ed Street]

XL based on the Trident? Quite possibly, many things have been based on the Trident, e.g., Bambu X1C. There is the Daksh, which is an outstanding project. I also have seen a tool changer on a V0 that used the classic CNC tool changer setup.  Also, Ankur said he based it around the XL locks.

As you are well aware, the 2.4 has a very special gantry.  I think they may have overlooked the default settings of max_z_velocity: 250, max_z_accel: 1000 (you should easily be able to double those.

[Rob Hall]

Yes he did say he based his Daksh v2 around the XL 

There's a few guys that are super smart working on this 

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[3D Printing Tips and Tricks]

Ok… what is that lack of understanding? The Voron tool changers have to go all the way back up to change tools.

[3D Printing Tips and Tricks]

What? Are you saying the Bambu and the XL are based in some way on the Voron trident? If so that’s quite incorrect. There’s very little overlap in any of the three completely different printer designs. For a Voron based TC to be faster than an XL that Voron z axis travel would have to be so fast that the momentum would make it hazardous. The Voron needs to travel in all three axes, the XL design only two. Add to that the needed maneuvering around the parking place to attach/detach. The travel has to be slowed down for that to work reliably.

Not that the Voron approach is bad. If it works reliably it’s great, but no… it can’t be faster and the XL in no way is based on a Voron design.

[Kurt The 3D Printer GUY!]

Ed - I hear you - in regards to your comment of " I also had trouble following along ...  I was powder coating while listening to the episode." 

I have the same problem. Since, I may listen to the podcast, while I am at work  - and trying to get work done. And, some segments - you truly need to concentrate fully on the podcast to fully understand certain topics discussed by Andy & Whitney. 

I also appreciate that about the podcast - that at times - it really makes me Think!

-K

[Rob Hall]

I think you do some looking into things. 

The voron Trident is a much older design than the Prusa XL. And it's very similar design tool path etc. 

Your starting to sound like a Prusa fan boy yourself.  

The voron Trident tool changer Daksh v2 which is based on Prusa XL ideas. 

Sorry guys.  This episode was a bit weak and not very well informed.  It might be my fault for only posting my own machine and my experiences.  

Here is the stealth changer GitHub 

https://github.com/DraftShift

The tap changer GitHub 

https://github.com/viesturz/tapchanger

Daksh v2 GitHub

https://github.com/ankurv2k6/daksh-toolchanger-v2

https://youtube.com/@ankurv2k8?si=2jycaOIsuHSqk1_f 

Here is Arkurv's YouTube channel 

https://discord.gg/xmDWrYGwVJ

Voron tool changer discord

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLqU7kX5nUJDRDw5z0NLwJ22OkV6fbjnSW

Tap changer YouTube

Stealth changer discord 

https://discord.gg/jJs73c6vSc

I strongly suggest you stop by the discords

There are some great guys there. 

And here is the voron GitHub

https://github.com/VoronDesign

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[Ed Street]

>> The Voron tool changers have to go all the way back up to change tools.

Ok, no it does not!!!  Well, it can if you want it to.

Uhm let me put it this way: please watch the video here it is a 2 1/2-minute clip of the voron tap changer in action. 

We can all agree that this is printing and changing on the slow side, and the color changes are around 1.5 seconds.  In my free time today, I asked various Discords on voron tool changers about speeds and timing.  So we have several factors that will come into play with the speed of a tool change, acceleration, and velocity being big factors; you also have voltage and stability.   The floating/flying gantry can do the job alone because you can easily drop 48v+ to the motors, and 4 of them, you can hit 350mm/s EASILY on Z for movements.  Scary? Perhaps, but also, isn't the X and Y also 'scary' at this speed?  Please do not put your hands inside the printer when operating.  End of the day, one person said he was getting around 1.5 seconds at the most on a tool change and it was stable and good overall.  We can also agree this is much faster than anything Bambu has produced to-date.

The thing about the Voron is this.  It is not a 'KIT' or a ''DIY' or just one thing only from a GitHub somewhere.  It is a group of groups working on projects.  There are guides to follow for various things, and yes, some people do have part kits in various flavors for things as well.  All of the gripes we hear about on the podcast are most often implemented in the ecosystem, those that are not can be 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IVhQJohzZ84

[Ed Street]

Ok, I forgot one. ... there are options ;)  Three of them are listed here.   https://github.com/viesturz/tapchanger/blob/main/Dock/Dock.md

[bron...@gmail.com]

I am in the process of redoing all of my tools and switching from tap changer to stealth changer

Andy I strongly suggest you stop by the draftshift discord and chat with some of us there  https://discord.gg/VgrFPDkQ

your input on slicing and such would probably be pretty valuable you have been doing this a while.

yes on the tap changer and the stealth changer you need to come all the way up on the voron 2.4  

 but on the Dakash v2 system which is based on a trident its a open source system inspired by the XL

and there is more than one lift bar in development as well

but there are some people in the stealth changer group that have tool changes to under 10 seconds I think I have even heard 5 seconds which is pretty fast even having to go all the way back up

the tool changing system

I suggest taking one of your spare raspberry pi's and put Klipper on a ender or any of your 8 bit machines

you don't need a different controller board most of the time. most of the boards that run Marlin can be flashed to support Klipper

its also a very compelling project with some of the benifits of reprap firmware no re flashing for updates and config changes etc etc 

in many ways it is equal to it or better its not 100% better there are still a few things I prefer about Reprap firmware on my duet 

but there's a lot of flexibility in Klipper you can run multiple controller boards if you want more inputs or outputs  etc etc

I also am willing to do any tests on my machines that you might want could possibly even let you into my lan via vpn to cruise around in my install

I have this work in progress and my railcore duet machine and the Bambu x1c currently.  

Andy I have been a listener for as long as you guys have been sharing the show and while I probably wouldn't be a great guest on the show I would be happy to share what I have to let you research the topics a bit more

and help with some of the unknows  feel free to pm me we are in the same timezone I would totaly be open to a phone call even

[3D Printing Tips and Tricks]

Wow. Good stuff.. Thanks!

I’ll take a look at the discord channel. I would already have done the klipper thing to an ender3 except that the ender3 that I have has a replacement board and when I last looked there wasn’t support for it. That may easily have changed by now so I’ll look into that as well.

imo it’s no biggie if a toolchange takes more time than the 2-3 seconds the XL does. The E3d takes quite a bit more time, mostly because I do a priming string. It’s still way way faster than an auto loader approach. Please report here on your projects progress.

I’m hopeful that these open source TCs will get popular and continue to develop.

[Evan]

Do you mind sharing the link to the voron 0 one?

I'm going to rebuild my V0 soon.

[Niels Wullems]

I've been experimenting with Stealth changer.
While I like the simplicity, I don't like the results both during probing and during printing.
I see the same quality of print issues with the prints in the Discord group. So I'm not impressed.
The tool head pivots to much over the carriage giving issues on the Z-height readings.

The design lacks rigidity to withstand these forces giving inaccuracies. 

Op donderdag 27 juni 2024 om 15:45:17 UTC+2 schreef Evan:

[Rob Hall]

Have you adjusted the preload screws on the tool plate

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[Niels Wullems]

Yes,
But that doesn't solve the inherent issue with the changing mechanism.
And I get it is based on what was the best probing solution available when development started.

Op donderdag 27 juni 2024 om 18:29:13 UTC+2 schreef Rob Hall:

[Rob Hall]

They are working on other stuff v2 is slowly coming together. Have you tried v1.1 yet. 

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[Niels Wullems]

No, and I won't.
My mate has tried V1.1 and it didn't solve any of my issues.

Like I already said, the issues are inherent to the design.
And I totally get it since it was build on Tap which was the best option at the time.

Op donderdag 27 juni 2024 om 19:12:01 UTC+2 schreef Rob Hall:

[Rob Hall]

Had a chat with softfever of orca slicer 

There will be support for multiple tools in the future as he is building a voron tool changer 

Now.  No time line or anything but it's a good sign 

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[bron...@gmail.com]

Ok I know I am dragging up a old post but Andy I would suggest you give orca slicer a try

It supports the prusa xl 5 tool now as well 

There is a script online for converting prusa profiles to orca as well 

I can remember where it was but somewhere on github

[3D Printing Tips and Tricks]

OK... But lets bump it ok?

I try to DL it and the linux version is in the Mac OS version link. The MacOS version is in the Linux version link. Not a good start.

[3D Printing Tips and Tricks]

Oops! My Mac OS does not support it.

Seems they compiled it for the latest OS only and I'm not buying a new Mac until probably Black Friday.

[Rob Hall]

I have been loving it on Linux since before Bambu had a Linux version 

And I have finally moved my other printer into 

It from super slicer

It handles multiple machines better than prusa 

But you still need to watch your settings 

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[Ed Street]

So, what Mac version are you using??

Minimum System Requirements:

• Operating System: macOS 10.13 High Sierra or later
• Processor: Intel Core i3 or equivalent
• Memory: 4 GB RAM
• Graphics: Metal compatible GPU
• Storage: 500 MB available space

Also, with Orca, you can download the maker work stuff and use it to export the STL.

Next, let me open a can of worms on this one. ;) It would stand to reason that in light of the current lawsuit, which includes things like prime towers, etc. (uhm, software-related), that Orca slicer may/would/should/will (?) be included in that as well or at least caught in the crossfire, considering Orca is a derivative of Bambu Studio. 

[3D Printing Tips and Tricks]

I forgot that I had already tried to use it awhile back and that my Mac couldn't run it.

My olde "trashcan" MacPro 2013 is still on Monterey, 12.7.6. What is a bit mind boggling to me is how really powerful the thing still is yet Apple has stopped support for it. So the day after turkey day I'll be a hunting for a new Mac Studio for the podcast and for all my 3D work. Fusion360 will soon no longer operate on anything less than OSX 10.13 and I am sure the same will happen soon for LogicPro. So even though this Desktop computer has ample resources to do the work, Apple moved to their own processors and stopped support on Intel making the thing useless. :-(

After that I'll give Orca a try for sure.