Printing really thin elastic parts

[Graham Holt]

Hey everyone. I was hoping I could get your thoughts on the best way to approach a problem.

I have a device that is made of an elastic material that is 0.2mm thick. Sometimes it breaks and I don't have a good way to repair it. I would love to 3D print replacement parts, but I am not sure that an FDM machine can do the job.

The material is thin and stretchy, like a really thin rubber band. I don't know the durometer of it, but I will likely purchase a meter to find out. I am assuming it is under the 95A TPU that I currently have (and have never used.

Is SLA a better approach for this project?

I am also trying to source a sheet of material to try to cut and or lasercut.

I may try a drag knife adapted to one of my printers.

Any other ideas are welcome. Thank you.

[vr...@optonline.net]

Good morning Graham,

Either in this forum, or the prior version (which is still active as an Archive and is searchable) - but, there was a talk about "Living hinges". That may apply to what you're trying to do. 

However, let's stay on topic of TPU. I think it MAY be Viable to do. The standard nozzle tip is a 0.4mm, but, I believe if you got something like a 0.3 or 0.2 orifice tip (I think those sizes exists) - you may have a better chance of doing what you want. Keep in mind, it can be VERY Tough to do layer heights less than 0.1mm - especially on 1st layer - and also depending how well tuned is your printer, how old is the bed, and flat is the bed - also size of part. The bigger the bottom surface area of the part, the more of the bed is covered, and that causes chance of success to go down - depending on flatness of your bed. So, if you printed like 0.1mm on 1st layer, then 0.05mm on the next 2 layers, that MAY get you what you need. 

Would you be able to share a pic of this item you want to print? OR, do you even have an STL of it??

 

-K

 

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[James Fackert]

If it's unidirectional stretch and you can match the durometer and orient filament runs in the stretch direction you might get it to work. Very stretchy not easy to find.

Swivel knife cutter plotter and sheet stock might be more likely due to wide range of durometer materials and thicknesses of sheet stock, though knife cutting stretchy but tough soft durometer rubber can be challenging.

Die cutting sheet stock might work much more cleanly and  custom steel rule dies are quite inexpensive as are craft level die cut presses.

 Customshapepros.com

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[vr...@optonline.net]

By the way, I first read your posting too quickly. For some reason, I thought you had mentioned PLA. But, now I see you wrote SLA. I recently saw there are resins available that are TPU type materials for resin printing. So, if you know someone with a Resin printer - maybe you could get them to print a test part is a TPU type resin. 

-K

 

------ Original Message ------
From: graha...@gmail.com
To: 3d-printing-...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Thursday, November 2, 2023 10:07 AM
Subject: Printing really thin elastic parts

 

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[jfka...@gmail.com]

Ninja flex is super strong and flexible, but not as stretchy as a rubber band would be. You really need a direct drive extruder to run it so a lot of cheap Creality type printers are out unless you modify them. After that it is super easy to print and sticks to most bed surfaces with no problems, I just used a little thinned out elmers glue. 

The stuff is very tough, a few years ago I designed a replacement pad for a car lift for a local shop. The stock rubber pads tear up easy and chemicals eat them up. But the NinjaFlex pads I made are still near perfect 5 years later. 

[mark.he...@gmail.com]

I use TPU often and sometimes print membranes. I don’t particularly like the 95A. I use ninja flex 85A. It has some color variety and is very durable. 

For small membranes you may have to add extra material to the print just to get the material flowing - which can be cut away of course. Or do a healthy skirt

I also do multi material prints with TPU membranes embedded into PLA or nylon

You have to print slow with TPU of course and for smaller tall parts you have to move the nozzle away periodically due to heat deformation. Sometimes this is a simple as printing multiples and spacing them. Usually that method requires some post processing - trimming the cob webby stuff. 

I only print FFF so can’t speak to the SLA solution. 

Sent from my iPhone

On Nov 2, 2023, at 12:19 PM, vr...@optonline.net wrote:



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[Graham Holt]

Pictures, yes that would help.

I have a glass bed, so that should help. MakerGear M2 if that helps.

The parts are going to be patches to the item pictured. Each patch will be a variation of the sketch and need to be made in different lengths. I would probably print several at a time, potentially connected by thin pieces so they can be cut off as needed for a particular size. Maybe a 40mm x 50mm shape would  let me get 4 onto a plate.

I have done 0.1mm layer height across this bed with PLA before, not sure if TPU is going to be harder. I do think I have a 0.2mm nozzle in my stash, but I will need to check.

[Graham Holt]

At present I don’t know anyone with a liquid resin printer. I think that I need to make some new friends.

Acquiring one for this project isn’t out of the question, but I would need that test to know it was going to work first. I know there are some maker spaces in the area…

[vr...@optonline.net]

Maker Spaces are a Great Options!!!

-K

 

------ Original Message ------
From: graha...@gmail.com
To: 3d-printing-...@googlegroups.com

Sent: Thursday, November 2, 2023 7:14 PM
Subject: Re: Printing really thin elastic parts

At present I don’t know anyone with a liquid resin printer. I think that I need to make some new friends.

 

Acquiring one for this project isn’t out of the question, but I would need that test to know it was going to work first. I know there are some maker spaces in the area…

On Thursday, November 2, 2023 at 12:19:16 PM UTC-4 vr...@optonline.net wrote:
 

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[jfka...@gmail.com]

Recently Formlabs has been promoting their 100% silicone 40A "resin". Looks interesting.

https://formlabs.com/blog/silicone-3d-printing-material-silicone-40a-resin/

[vr...@optonline.net]

Yeah - maybe that was the pop-up ad I recently saw about a TPU resin.

-K

 

------ Original Message ------
From: jfka...@gmail.com
To: 3d-printing-...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Friday, November 3, 2023 12:19 AM
Subject: Re: Printing really thin elastic parts

Recently Formlabs has been promoting their 100% silicone 40A "resin". Looks interesting.

 

https://formlabs.com/blog/silicone-3d-printing-material-silicone-40a-resin/

 

On Thursday, November 2, 2023 at 10:07:51 AM UTC-5 Graham Holt wrote:
 

 

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[darrel...@gmail.com]

thanks for the link--interesting that the features size limit for silicone 40a is only 0.3 mm. Usually you can go much smaller with resins.

Even so, it looks impressive. It probably opens up some new markets, like custom watchbands. Too bad it' only one color so far. You could also do weird things, like scan your head and then print it in silicone. 

[Graham Holt]

Formlabs is nearby. Maybe I should bother them about this. Bummer about the .3mm limit and the color choice. Black is kind of a bummer as the original device is clear or frosted (yellowing over time).

40A may be too soft for a watch band, but I suppose that depends on how you like your watchbands.

I have talked to a colleague and we are going to go down this rabbit hole together.


GH

[jfka...@gmail.com]

Adult toy "prototyping" :-)

[vr...@optonline.net]

Yeah Darrell - agreed - a 0.3mm layer height seems like No Bueno for resins!

When I worked at EnvisionTec, and I went to Michigan for training - on the 1st day one of my coworkers handed me this one print. I was immediately blown away by how utterly Small the print was. I think the full height of it was a little taller than the diameter of a quarter. The details in it were Amazing! I am attaching 3 pics. The one is the supports that were removed. Will admit - the pic of the back of the character looks a little bad - due to all the Dimples where the supports were connected! But, still - the front looks really cool!

-K

 

------ Original Message ------
From: darrel...@gmail.com
To: 3d-printing-...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Friday, November 3, 2023 11:19 AM
Subject: Re: Printing really thin elastic parts

thanks for the link--interesting that the features size limit for silicone 40a is only 0.3 mm. Usually you can go much smaller with resins.

 

Even so, it looks impressive. It probably opens up some new markets, like custom watchbands. Too bad it' only one color so far. You could also do weird things, like scan your head and then print it in silicone. 

 

On Thursday, November 2, 2023 at 10:19:47 PM UTC-7 jfka...@gmail.com wrote:
 

 

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[vr...@optonline.net]

Hey Graham - that's cool that you're close by to FormLabs. 

Truth is - may times, some of the co's will send a potential customer a test print - as its truly a sales pitch for the printer. So, in theory - you could maybe ask them to print a test piece for you!

 

Have Fun going down that Rabbit Hole!

 

-K

 

------ Original Message ------
From: graha...@gmail.com
To: 3d-printing-...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Friday, November 3, 2023 11:32 AM
Subject: Re: Printing really thin elastic parts

Formlabs is nearby. Maybe I should bother them about this. Bummer about the .3mm limit and the color choice. Black is kind of a bummer as the original device is clear or frosted (yellowing over time). 

40A may be too soft for a watch band, but I suppose that depends on how you like your watchbands.

I have talked to a colleague and we are going to go down this rabbit hole together. 


GH
 

On Friday, November 3, 2023 at 12:19:03 PM UTC-4 darrel...@gmail.com wrote:
 

 

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[vr...@optonline.net]

Hey there Mr. Kansas - I like where you're going with that suggestion!

Although - when I saw what you wrote, I was Sure it was in response to something I wrote! I say this for obvious reasons (or, obvious to those that know about some of my posts going back MANY Years!)...

-K

 

------ Original Message ------
From: jfka...@gmail.com
To: 3d-printing-...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Friday, November 3, 2023 11:32 AM
Subject: Re: Printing really thin elastic parts

Adult toy "prototyping" :-)

 

On Friday, November 3, 2023 at 11:19:03 AM UTC-5 darrel...@gmail.com wrote:
 

 

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[vr...@optonline.net]

Hey Graham - since you mentioned "Acquiring one for this project isn’t out of the question..." - I figured I would also mention another option. But, I don't know enough about it to know for sure if it fits your needs of low layer height and part flexibility. But, there is also the Fuse printer by FormLabs. You might consider asking for them to print a test part for you on both their Resin printer - and on the Fuse printer. It's just a thought...

-K

 

------ Original Message ------
From: graha...@gmail.com
To: 3d-printing-...@googlegroups.com

Sent: Thursday, November 2, 2023 7:14 PM
Subject: Re: Printing really thin elastic parts

At present I don’t know anyone with a liquid resin printer. I think that I need to make some new friends.

 

Acquiring one for this project isn’t out of the question, but I would need that test to know it was going to work first. I know there are some maker spaces in the area…

On Thursday, November 2, 2023 at 12:19:16 PM UTC-4 vr...@optonline.net wrote:
 

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[Graham Holt]

Acquiring a $3,000 printer isn’t out of the question, but it is still a big ask. $20-30k is out of the question and I wouldn’t even have a place to put it. Asking for a test print in SLA is probably a more reasonable ask.

[vr...@optonline.net]

Dang - I didn't realize the Fuse was that expensive! I know of the Fuse - but, only looked at it years ago - and didn't remember the pricing for it. 

Also - FYI - there are less expensive Resin printers than the FormLabs units. I believe some folks on here have experience with resin printers. Not sure if Andy does - but, I believe he does. 

My exp. w/resin printers is fairly limited - although I did work with some of the EnvisionTec printers, I have not really worked with any of the more hobby level printers. There was one at Essentium, I think it was hobby level. A dude there worked with them, and he has several resin printers. Maybe I should reach out to him and steer you in the right direction...

-K

 

------ Original Message ------
From: graha...@gmail.com
To: 3d-printing-...@googlegroups.com

Sent: Friday, November 3, 2023 4:45 PM
Subject: Re: Re: Printing really thin elastic parts
Acquiring a $3,000 printer isn’t out of the question, but it is still a big ask. $20-30k is out of the question and I wouldn’t even have a place to put it. Asking for a test print in SLA is probably a more reasonable ask.

 

On Friday, November 3, 2023 at 2:11:56 PM UTC-4 vr...@optonline.net wrote:
 

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[James Fackert]

Die cutting is looking better and better...

How much does the replacement part cost from manufacturer?

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[jfka...@gmail.com]

Depending on the actual part design it might be possible to design/print a 2 piece mold and then use some off the shelf 2 part silicone product. 

It might take a couple tries to get the thickness right. I used some carbon/abs filament then smoothed/sealed with some acetone products to make some custom hot end insulators. 

I wouldn't want to mass produce like this, but for a few here and there it worked great. 

[vr...@optonline.net]

Great idea Mr. Kansas. I actually replicated a coaster of mine many moons ago. I 3D Printed some, then used one to make a mold. Then made copies of the coaster with that mold. It might indeed work for Graham. 

-K

 

------ Original Message ------
From: jfka...@gmail.com
To: 3d-printing-...@googlegroups.com

Sent: Friday, November 3, 2023 6:08 PM
Subject: Re: Re: Printing really thin elastic parts
Depending on the actual part design it might be possible to design/print a 2 piece mold and then use some off the shelf 2 part silicone product. 

 

It might take a couple tries to get the thickness right. I used some carbon/abs filament then smoothed/sealed with some acetone products to make some custom hot end insulators. 

 

I wouldn't want to mass produce like this, but for a few here and there it worked great. 

 

On Friday, November 3, 2023 at 5:57:25 PM UTC-5 James Fackert wrote:
 

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[jfka...@gmail.com]

This is the top and bottom of the mold. 

[Graham Holt]

Replacement parts are unavailable, so you have to buy a new one after the warranty period is over. A replacement is $4k.

There are very few groups that are maintaining the equipment the way I do and there isn't a big enough market to justify providing parts.

[Graham Holt]

Here is a bit of a refinement on the shapes. These are only 0.2mm thick, so I am pretty sure I will have a hard time injection molding. What about a 3d printed mold, put silicone in the top and scrape off the excess?

Any recommendations on a pourable silicone? I haven't used that before,

I have purchased a durometer to narrow down the silicone.

[jfka...@gmail.com]

You aren't really injection molding, it is a pour mold into a cavity. Something that thin may not even need a lid, just have a pocket at the top of a mold and you can probably just sqeegee off any excess silicon. Something like this. 

SmoothOn has a wide range of silicon products and you can add a little of their silpig dye to get the color you want. Try to get something with a short cure time like 20 min. https://www.smooth-on.com/products/mold-star-trade-31t/

[jfka...@gmail.com]

I would probably make the pocket .4mm deep and then sand down to the final depth. Before sanding, smooth the ABS with acetone. You can put Acetone into a nylon spray bottle and spritz the top surface so it all kind of naturally self levels. 

[vr...@optonline.net]

Ouch - that sucks Graham! In fact, a buddy of mine down in San Diego was working at a Bio-Tech company, and was using a machine that also was no longer supported. It squirts plasma - and was setup to have 10 racks and 5 funnels in each rack. I re-created in 3D those funnels and racks - and he was THrILLED with what I did. I should share that here - although, I don't have the pics on this computer...

 

I did indeed share it in the past. But, will share again now (I hope you don't mine me hi-jacking this thread a little)...

So - a pic of the rack (its printed upside down for obvious reasons) - and, yeah - although this print was a BAD one - I got the print issues resolved and DID deliver the dude some great parts:

 

And, here's a Messed up pic of some of the funnels. This is what happens what you don't have your post processing routine dialed in. The Acetone vapor processing was running TOO Long - and this was the outcome:

 

But, I did manage to dial it in:

 

And, for the delivery - he needed 50 funnels:

 

 

-K

 

------ Original Message ------
From: graha...@gmail.com
To: 3d-printing-...@googlegroups.com

Sent: Tuesday, November 7, 2023 2:21 PM
Subject: Re: Re: Printing really thin elastic parts
Replacement parts are unavailable, so you have to buy a new one after the warranty period is over. A replacement is $4k.

There are very few groups that are maintaining the equipment the way I do and there isn't a big enough market to justify providing parts.

 

On Friday, November 3, 2023 at 6:57:25 PM UTC-4 James Fackert wrote:
 

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[vr...@optonline.net]

Mr. Kansas - good on you for quick reply with SmoothOn. I was indeed going to suggest them.

Honestly - I think he could print a 2 part mold - and then he would pour in the SmoothOn resin! I think that could work. May be the cleanest and easiest way to do it. Will admit - in the past when I made my coaster replications using SmoothOn - I did do the pocket kinda thing!

 

I had a further - Out_of_the_Box thought on this. Although, I think its tougher to explain...

 

That being said - Graham - I'd enjoy chatting wit you about my thoughts on this via phone. So, if you want - feel free to ping me via DM and maybe we can coordinate on a quick chat!

 

-Kurt

 

------ Original Message ------
From: jfka...@gmail.com
To: 3d-printing-...@googlegroups.com

Sent: Tuesday, November 7, 2023 3:14 PM
Subject: Re: Printing really thin elastic parts
I would probably make the pocket .4mm deep and then sand down to the final depth. Before sanding, smooth the ABS with acetone. You can put Acetone into a nylon spray bottle and spritz the top surface so it all kind of naturally self levels. 

 

On Tuesday, November 7, 2023 at 2:06:09 PM UTC-6 jfka...@gmail.com wrote:
 

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[jfka...@gmail.com]

I'm thinking just pouring in to cavity and squeegeeing off the top just to prevent having to trim a bunch of flashing that will fill the gaps between the 2 piece mold.

Some experimentation on thickness will need to be done as the silicon will shrink a little when curing. I'd start out with a .4mm pocket and grind that perfectly flat with sandpaper on a flat piece of glass. Mix up a little and let cure then see what you end up with. If it is too thick then sand the mold down a bit and try again. 

[vr...@optonline.net]

After reading this - it makes more sense what you meant. I somehow thought previously you meant sanding down the part - not the mold. But, I see what you're getting at!

 

------ Original Message ------
From: jfka...@gmail.com
To: 3d-printing-...@googlegroups.com

Sent: Tuesday, November 7, 2023 4:09 PM
Subject: Re: Re: Printing really thin elastic parts
I'm thinking just pouring in to cavity and squeegeeing off the top just to prevent having to trim a bunch of flashing that will fill the gaps between the 2 piece mold.

 

Some experimentation on thickness will need to be done as the silicon will shrink a little when curing. I'd start out with a .4mm pocket and grind that perfectly flat with sandpaper on a flat piece of glass. Mix up a little and let cure then see what you end up with. If it is too thick then sand the mold down a bit and try again. 

 

On Tuesday, November 7, 2023 at 2:34:56 PM UTC-6 vr...@optonline.net wrote:
 

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[Maad Maat]

Some thoughts on the 2-part silicone molding. We've been doing a similar process with Smooth-on silicone to prototype grommet-type parts. 0.2mm is REALLY thin, and your parts are comparatively long, so that makes a pretty thin aspect ratio. You're going to have a hard time pushing that silicone thru that thin and long section without having it flash everywhere in the parting line. We often ended up with flash thicker than 0.2mm in our process. If you do want to pursue that path, I'd actually suggest a grade with longer pot-life (30-40min) and cure-time since you're not concerned with throughput here. A vacuum chamber to degass the mixed silicone prior to molding is recommended. Be sure to include a vent in your cavity. If you're printing the cavity with SLA, note that some resins will inhibit the curing of the silicone, especially on a 0.2mm section. Platinum cure aka addition cure silicones have better mechanical properties but are more susceptible to cure inhibition than tin cure aka condensation cure silicones. That being said, the 2-part silicones will never have as good strength, elongation, and tear resistance as the original material. 

I'd recommend having the shapes cut from a 0.2mm sheet of an equivalent material.  

[Maad Maat]

Also, about scraping off the excess of an open cavity, imagine doing so with water and consider that the mixed silicone also has its own viscosity and surface tension. That 0.2mm deep open cavity is more likely to give you an elongated blob of silicone than the shape you want ;-)

[jfka...@gmail.com]

I was also thinking of the possibility of using strips of thin steel rule sharpened to make a die cutter. 

Silicon at that thickness probably isn't going to be strong. Maybe get a thin sheet of Buna-n and 3d Print a piece of plastic with a groove to insert a die blade, sharpen if needed and then with a quick hammer strike a rubber piece could be cut. 

[James Fackert]

custom steel rule dies are very inexpensive but must be precise/

the steel rule itself is sharp and cheap.

modern die holders are cut precisely by laser out of plywood with a backing board..

tap the rule in, add a backer.

watch some you tube videos,  and get a quote!

pushing it all at one with a press will be most accurate for flexible materials.

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[markni...@gmail.com]

Grahm,

What you want to do is super easy and cheap.

Use DIY leather cutting dies: https://www.amazon.com/Leather-Cutting-Stamping-Punching-Handmade/dp/B0B4MZ9RKS/ref=sr_1_5?keywords=leather%2Bcutting%2Bdies&qid=1699473382&sr=8-5&th=1

Use round leather cutting tube dies, to put the holes in the barbell ends.

You'll need to find out if the material is, neoprene, flexible urathane, or just what. Then buy rolls or sheets of it in the thickness you need.

Both types of the above dies can be smacked with a big wooden mallet, or buy a cheap Harbor freight shop press.

[Graham Holt]

This is what I was thinking, though I have had mixed experiences attempting this in the past, all be it with different casting materials.

[Graham Holt]

That is an impressive set of things you make and I thank you for keeping equipment like this going. It is sad when support for products happens, but 3D printing is the perfect remedy.

I have done some acetone smoothing in the past and have some ABS that I could use if it came to that. With a 2mm thin part, I worry that it will just dissolve into nothing.

[Graham Holt]

Indeed the thickness is an issue and I don't think that I would be able to get injection molding to work here. I would also need to talk my way into a vacuum chamber of some sort.

All signs point to die cutting a sheet of material just like how the original is made.

[Graham Holt]

Right idea, but I definitely need to go the custom route since these won't have the right sizes for my needs. Looking at the costs of those, the custom ones should be reasonable.

At one point I was told how strong the press was that they used to make these. I am guessing it was complete overkill for the material though and they were just bragging about the process using an n ton press. I did not like that general manager.

[Graham Holt]

I am hoping to be able to reach out for a quote today pending any major disasters here at work. Thank you.

[Graham Holt]

Playing around with PLA until I can sort out some settings. Then I will try it with the TPU I have on hand. 

[vr...@optonline.net]

You're quite welcome Graham. But, I would suggest printing your part in ABS - since it won't have the flexibility that you require.

-K

 

------ Original Message ------
From: graha...@gmail.com
To: 3d-printing-...@googlegroups.com

Sent: Thursday, November 9, 2023 7:44 AM
Subject: Re: Re: Re: Printing really thin elastic parts
That is an impressive set of things you make and I thank you for keeping equipment like this going. It is sad when support for products happens, but 3D printing is the perfect remedy.

I have done some acetone smoothing in the past and have some ABS that I could use if it came to that. With a 2mm thin part, I worry that it will just dissolve into nothing.

 

On Tuesday, November 7, 2023 at 3:28:26 PM UTC-5 vr...@optonline.net wrote:
 

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/3d-printing-tips--tricks/f7ca3f57-87b7-4763-91af-57cb1ec536afn%40googlegroups.com.
 

[Graham Holt]

So many good ideas it is hard to keep things straight. I was thinking about printing a positive, smooth it and make a mold of that to cast a flexible material. 

[vr...@optonline.net]

That was a Typo I made in my prior reply (rectified in Red below). But, yeah - now I see - you were NOT looking to print the Parts in ABS - but, a Mold for making the parts. That does make sense, and smoothing the mold with Acetone Vapor I am sure will help. 

 

------ Original Message ------
From: graha...@gmail.com
To: 3d-printing-...@googlegroups.com

Sent: Monday, November 13, 2023 2:13 PM
Subject: Re: Re: Re: Re: Printing really thin elastic parts

So many good ideas it is hard to keep things straight. I was thinking about printing a positive, smooth it and make a mold of that to cast a flexible material. 

On Thursday, November 9, 2023 at 11:22:27 AM UTC-5 vr...@optonline.net wrote:
 

You're quite welcome Graham. But, I would NOT suggest printing your part in ABS - since it won't have the flexibility that you require.

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/3d-printing-tips--tricks/66b43bcb-b369-483f-aa35-e7d02300c4dan%40googlegroups.com.
 

[Graham Holt]

A quick update. I have gotten some good prints with 95A TPU. 0.2mm in 2 layers. It is extremely tough, but the shape recall isn’t good. As you guys said, it isn’t great at stretching. In the second photo you can see the middle piece stretched out well past its original length.

Will a softer TPU be better with the stretching? 85A or softer?