Voron & Prusa had a baby

[Jeff Ratner]

I bought a new printer called a Zaribo Level Cube or "ZLC". It's kind of like if a Voron 2.4 and a Prusa i3 MK3S had a baby. Stationary 110 volt heated bed, corexy belt system, linear rails for z travel, Misumi rods for x and y, large touchscreen, etc. Please take a look and let me know what you think of this printer. 

 https://zaribo.com/zaribo-level-cube-3d-printer/545-zaribo-level-cube-qgl-quad-gantry-leveling-core-xy-3d-printer.html 

[3D Printing Tips and Tricks]

Looks nice. Post some print pics!

[Jeff Ratner]

I'll have to take some better close-ups next time I print something. I do have a dark blurry picture and movie of a wheel chair I designed for a disabled kitten a few months ago. I'll add the movie in a follow up post (file is too large to include)

 

[Jeff Ratner]

Having trouble posting an 8 mb movie. So here are a few screen shots. 

[Gary Tolley - Grogyan]

Just from the pic,
Why would you go to all the effort with linear slides on the Z axis, and not the Core X-Y?

If anything you need the linear slides on the Core X-Y and linear ball bearings on the Z

Seems rather back to front engineering.

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[James Fackert]

And only $1700.

Parts? Support?

I would buy a Bambu carbon x1.

More for less.

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[Gary Tolley - Grogyan]

I'd just build a regular voron, but use Marlin instead of klipper than build this.

Just my opinion 

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[LukeH]

I think this looks like a solid, albeit slightly over engineered printer.

The fixed bed and use of rods in the X and Y axis would make it a highly scalable design. You could probably move to a massive build volume and still maintain print speeds that are the same or better than a Voron (depending on the processor in the control board, since it is Marlin and not Klipper or RRF).

I’m not a fan of sticking the power supply and control board under a 220VAC or 110VAC bed, since those are the bits you need to keep cool), and it would become especially problematic if you put it in an enclosure like they show on the web site.

Still, it looks the business. Is it worth the expense, compared to other options? I don’t know. Certainly, once you start getting towards $2,000 for the fully optioned version, you are kind of at the point where for just a little more you could pick up a low-end or quality second hand professional/industrial machine, and be out of the open source/consumer space altogether.

[Kurt at VRFX]

Hey Luke - I'm really curious about this one comment you made - which I
highlighted below (ignoring for now the rest of the replies - not that I
disagree with the rest of your reply, in fact - I'm totally onboard!).

So, yeah - I'm curious why it seems like you would Lean Away from the
"open source/consumer space"? Is it purely because of the solid
reliability of industrial machines? Hell - if you know me - you KNOW I
agree on that, considering my StrataSys Mojo machine I own (although,
SADLY - I have NOT Powered it up in over 4 years - being that its in my
Storage Chamber back in NY). Of course, sometimes - with Pro Machines -
you have some limited options. Like, My Mojo would print GREAT - but,
Slow as Shit! Which I would at times find annoying. But, the prints were
WAY Superior to what I would get on my CupCake, My Super-CupCake and my
WanHao D6. Still, in the Hobby world - you CAN Control more slicing
paramaters - to push things to move Faster. And, I love to push the
envelope of 3D Printing, using tricks in the slicer, pushing machines to
go faster - but, also - Designing speicifically for 3D printing, designs
that take advantage of ways to print faster. Like designing to avoid
usage of Supports.

There was a project I did about a year ago at Essentium - I should
really share a bit of that project here. Because it was about how my
co-worker changed a client design - in order to TRULY Optimize how to
print the part. Literally - a design that allowed the part to print in
like 2 days instead of like nearly 11 days (that may be a bit off - but,
you get the idea).

Anyway - back to your comment. So - definitely hit me back here - as I'm
truly curious...

-K

On 12/31/2022 2:11 PM, LukeH wrote:
> ...for just a little more you could pick up a low-end or quality

[Luke Hartfiel]

Hi Kurt,

Just to be clear, I’m definitely not against open source machines. As an engineer, the only 3D printers I have at home these days are ones I have built myself from scratch using open source technologies and a combination of open source and proprietary components.

That said, there are lots of 3D printing ideas and technology that can produce printed objects faster and better than open source, but they are currently protected by the companies that invented them (or at least own the IP on the invention). They might not produce better prints than an open source machine (operated by someone who knows what they are doing), but they will almost certainly be more reliable (in general - my home built machines are super reliable, although I must admit the first machine I ever built was garbage), and have ease of use features unavailable to open source.

Expensive open source printers are expensive because the printers and components are artisanal, hand built creations that are expensive because of the time and effort involved, not because they have some higher intrinsic value. Cheap professional printers are cheap (comparatively, given high-end professional printers can go beyond $500k in price) because their production is automated.

Of course that all depends on the model and manufacturer.

The point I was trying, perhaps too indirectly, to make is that I think the printer in this thread is nice, but way too expensive for what it is, probably because of production costs, and not because it is a $1,000 better printer than a Voron kit you buy if AliExpress.

TLDR;

Nice printer. Too expensive. Where is the value add?



> On 1 Jan 2023, at 9:28 am, Kurt at VRFX <vr...@optonline.net> wrote:
>
> Hey Luke - I'm really curious about this one comment you made - which I highlighted below (ignoring for now the rest of the replies - not that I disagree with the rest of your reply, in fact - I'm totally onboard!).

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[Joseph Larson]

Very interesting. As I dig into this, it seems to be like a very "but" machine. Everything has a "but". Like:

300x300x300 CoreXY is awesome. We need more bigger 3D printers. BUT why only 300 tall? Why not push that to be taller? Surely it wouldn't have increased the price much to make it 400 or 500 tall? In my experience things I want to make that are that big usually push the height. 

Linear rods, BUT only on the Z? And do my eyes betray me or are all 3 axises belt driven, including the Z? The last printer I had that had belt driven everything was the $100 EasyThree K7.

I like the extruder system. No BUTs. Lightweight LDO motor, I trust it. And that filament out sensor is always good to see. BUT... dang it there was a but. BUT why doens't it have a nozzle that's easy to swap. I would prefer that over a dragon high flow. My Adventurer 3s and the Revo upgrade on my Prusa has spoiled me. I never want to unscrew a nozzle ever again. BUT At least with this one I won't need to brace the heat block. (Was that a double but?)

It's got Klipper... wait, does it have Klipper? It looks like it has Klipper BUT it doesn't say it had Klipper. It shows both a Marlin interface and a Klipper interface. Does that mean it doesn't have Klipper, but it could if you wanted to add it yourself for additional expense and time and, do they even give you instructions on how to do that? Listen, all I want to know is if it can do input shaping. No point having a highflow dragon nozzle if you're not going to go fast with it, and there's no point to going fast without input shaping.

Here's the thing, large format printers like this are far too uncommon and they almost always come at a significant price. You can't compare this to a Bambu X1 because it's build volume just doesn't reach this size. So, over all, there's a lot to like about this printer, and if you need solid quality and a large build volume, quite frankly I don't know where else you could go. BUT if I'm going to shell over more than $2k, I'm gonna nitpick the heck out of this thing.

[3D Printing Tips and Tricks]

Why not point some of those buts at Bambu? Great looking automation, but only comes in small build area. Great looking tech, but why single extruder?

There’s plenty of buts to go around!

[James Fackert]

The max build volume of a printer is determined by the target market.

As mentioned earlier, mid size volume is by far the most popular. The Bambu is pretty much at the max of parts we print, and most are much smaller.

Large build size volume printers are pretty rare, and that would indicate that the market for them is not very large. Prusa XL is pretty much out in left field build volume wise, and price wise. Not their current market.

Same for multiple print heads. Bambu has chosen to solve multiple filament builds with their quite capable filament swap and purge system.

I would be interesting to look at the cost of wasted filament purging in a multicolor print on bambu vs a multihead printer. Is the complexity and cost of multiple heads worth the savings? With one head you have simpler leveling and less issues from extra heads sitting around hot, ready to go, but doing nothing. You really gotta purge them anyway!

And then there's speed...again, single head swap and purge on bambu may well be faster and more reliable than multihead.

Anyone equipped to do a drag race?  Could do it virtually in slicer,I guess.

Prusa again chose multihead with XL.  At a high cost and complexity, abandoning filament swap system optional on mk3.

How fast will it really be?  nobody knows....

My dream printer is a belt printer 100mm wide belt, auto level and extrusion set up and test ad perfect belt adhesion with no cleaning or priming.   I could mass produce small parts quickly and reliably.

Although for 10 to 25 or more parts in a run, Bambu does this very efficiently by "step and repeat" small parts filling the bed. Very fast, very reliable, no scrap parts, no interference.

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[Jeff Ratner]

Thanks all for your comments. This Zaribo printer originally came with a Dragon HF but a few of the initial customers had clogging issues. I think Revo is now available from Zaribo. I put on an E3D V6 because I am not doing anything super high speed and don't do a lot of nozzle size changes. They do have a belt version available but this isn't something I thought I would ever need.   

[Joseph Larson]

On Monday, January 2, 2023 at 10:09:49 AM UTC-7 3D Printing Tips and Tricks wrote:

Why not point some of those buts at Bambu? Great looking automation, but only comes in small build area. Great looking tech, but why single extruder?

There’s plenty of buts to go around!

I didn't point any buts at BambuLabs because this is a Zarbo thread. I didn't even mention BambuLabs, so why even bring it up?

Andy, I think you've got BambuLabs envy.

[Luke Hartfiel]

It might be controversial, but I don’t necessarily see Revo nozzles as an “upgrade” in all circumstances, since they have a maximum flow rate only slightly higher than V6. Why would t they have been used in this case? Because it would have limited the maximum print speed, even with a fat nozzle (especially since Revo only seems to go up to 0.8mm nozzles?).

The fact that they chose to use belts and rails for the Z-axis doesn’t bother me. Lead screws might have been better, but given the bed is fixed and the only weight the Z-axis will ever have to lift is the X-Y gantry, it would be totally fine (and the same as every Delta printer in existence). 

I totally agree though that this unit could have been a lot bigger for very little additional expense (some additional linear rails and slightly longer belt length). It isn’t limited by lead screws that will start to wobble when they get too long, so why stop at 300mm build height?

On 3 Jan 2023, at 2:02 am, Joseph Larson <joeal...@gmail.com> wrote:

Very interesting. As I dig into this, it seems to be like a very "but" machine. Everything has a "but". Like:

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[3D Printing Tips and Tricks]

Perhaps it’s the right size for a hobby printer but certainly not for production or prototyping. It’s not just about the part size, it’s also about flexibility in positioning and part quantity on the plate. Also… as I have posted here repeatedly multiple extruders do not purge. They may prime, but not purge. There’s quite a bit of a difference. Single extruder solutions must purge all the material out of the entire extruder on every material change. Multiple extruders only need to make sure the material is contiguous all the way to the tip of the nozzle. There’s still issues for belt printers that have never fully been solved. Perhaps an idex, belt printer with dense support can solve the leading and trailing edge issues for every use case, but right now there are no idex belt printers.

Btw Joe…we’re talking to Bambu about loaning us an eval machine after we almost ordered one to do a deep review on the podcast. I hope they lend it to us because I really do not want to actually purchase one. It’s way too small and only has one extruder. Two factors which now disqualify a 3d printer to me. These days I require a min size of 300x300x300 and no less than two independent extruders. Also, I keep seeing posts about all the fancy automation in the Bambu not actually working. We want to test it for ourselves. We did order a hotend btw.

If I want one I can buy one and yes I still have the XL on order. I won’t be buying a ZLC.

The only 3d printer envy I would ever have is a stratasys polyjet. Yeah… now that’s a machine!

[Gary Tolley - Grogyan]

Wait a minute there, i'm just looking through the photos, the feet are nowhere near good enough for a printer this size

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[Jeff Ratner]

The feet mine came with are 30mm diameter Misumi under the 30mm square frame rails. Maybe there are some older photos or graphics still on the Zaribo website showing smaller feet..

[Kurt at VRFX]

OMG - the belt system in that pic reminds me of the Failed ABP unit on my original CupCake! Of course, Andy knows that was a Fiasco and useless. Not saying this one is - just its a reminder...

-K

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[Kurt at VRFX]

Hey there Luke,

Thanks for that Extensive reply. Sorry for my own Slow Arse Response -
but, alas - it WAS the Holidays...

Thanks also for the clarifications. Since, Yeah - I have had Solid
printing Hobby Level printers - as well as Pro-Level printers. And, like
you - my 1st printer I built from ALL Parts - but, my CupCake was a Kit
- not sourced parts like yours.

Yes, I have to say - if a Co. can produce parts FASTER and BETTER - to
be quite Honest -- I believe they SHOULD protect their IP. Even at
Essentium -  I believe STRONGLY in their machines, but, am working to
make them Better and perform reliably! I believe that the Tech within
them is indeed Superior to what's out there. But, we need to make them
more reliable - which is part of my job. Even a co-worker suggested
printing a part on an Ender 3 we have at work, and then shoot to produce
parts of same quality with our Essentium printers. But, of course, when
you go MUCH Bigger and Must Faster - its a different ball game all
together...

And, yeah - our printers have Artisanal parts (an interesting term you
used - I like it - it really does kind of fit!).

In the end, thanks for the clarification. Yes - I totally agree - the
printer in this thread - seems Over Priced without true reason like
increased performance or better prints - or better yet - more exotic
capabilities!

For instance - I paid a VERY HIGH Price for my SSys Mojo - but, for VERY
Obvious good reason!

-K

[brian wise]

Kurt you work @ a like real 3d printing company due I am so jealous that's awesome. Whats it like? Are they fun to play with? Do you get to take them apart? Dude I have so many questions.  Civil Engineering SUCKS.

[Kurt at VRFX]

Brian - you REALLY MADE ME Chuckle with your posting! AT first - I thought - did you only send the reply to me. But, alas - no, its to the forum. So, here goes...

Some of what I will say will be a repeat for folks. But, you DID ask for it!

Yes, working at Essentium is truly my DREAM JOB - as I have been obsessed with 3D Printing since 2011 - when I built my MakerBot CupCake - and started my Deep Dive into the world of 3D Printing. Its not only cause its SO COOL - and I get to work with a bunch of REALLY Smart Engineers - and that we are trying to push the envelope of 3D Printing - and that the co. is actually Developing 3D Printers and really COOL Tech - and that I get to work with 3D Printers EVERY DAY - nor that I get to print my own Personal Projects - if they are VIABLE Tests for things like a new S3D Profile (for instance - PCTG as the Model, its like PETG - and then PLA as the supports - and, they Created this profile because of me suggesting it - based upon Andy's experiments and HIS Podcast) - but, its also cause - working at my job is like One Big Family! Seriously! Not joking! Almost every other month we have a BBQ - and we ALL Cook stuff together - and have Drinks (yeah - even cooked Corn Bread and MORE in the printers). But, we are ALL Friends together - and we ALL Believe in the Common Goal of making Essentium Printers KICK ASS!!!

In effect, and I know it MAY sound Weird - but, we are kinda like David & Goliath! We are the little guys - hoping to make Tech that is potentially BETTER than the Big guys - like StrataSys!!! We DO have a SSys printer - and, even today - my Mgr suggested I print one of my personal project pieces on our SSys printer (as I already did the piece on our Ender in the shop) - and shoot for producing the SAME Piece on our Essentium printers!

This week - I started doing deep diving into several of our printers - doing fixing and replacing of parts, and IO Boards, and even the main Print head (no - I don't mean the Nozzle - which in our case is called the Hozzle - as its a combo Hot End and Nozzle together - and, yeah - this stuff is on our website - I'm telling NO Co. Secrets here). So, yeah - the main print head of the machine does the driving of the filament into the Hozzle - and has multiple fans - like a hobby level printer - for cooling the parts - but, also cool of part of the Hozzle so you don't have heat creep upwards!

So, yeah - its exciting work. Every day working with printers. And, also - dealing with challenges to make the printers better, test out new Eng. designs, but - also for me - PUSHING PRinters to PRINT FAST - and to print BIG!!!

Actually - this weekend - I may be going into work - to do another Re-print of my Dragon head! But, unlike the time I had a dude from the forum here print the head in 5 parts - I will instead print it in TWO Parts - head top - jaw bottom - so that I then assemble in teeth and tongue - and THEN put the top and bottom parts together! And, in this case - I'm looking to print in a Natural or semi-white ABS, with the plans to DYE the parts afterwards into another color! Yes - you CAN Dye ABS plastic using Nylon Clothing Dye. I've done it before!

So, yes - to answer your question - I did indeed get to take the printer apart a bit, but, mostly I do it for repairs or re-assembly. Feel free to bring on More questions!

That being said - I'm going to Change the Posting Subject - so I don't Hi-Jack the original Thread...

-Kurt the Dragon-Meister!

P.S. Brian - check out the website:   Essentium.com

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