CR30 eval

[TobyCWood]

Looks like I'll be getting a CR30 for a podcast eval... this Sunday! We were lucky cause buying one may be problematic for awhile at least.

[TobyCWood]

Getting ready for the CR30... watching YouTubes of adjustments and some tuber reviews. Reading all the FB posts in the two groups (interesting how one of them is a closed group). Lots of the usual things here and there that can always go wrong (I ignore those) but also quite a bit about low belt adhesion. I note that the adjustments look a heckalot more complex than the iFactory was. Lots of people post about issues that are more from their lack of experience(or simply skill)... I also see this from one of the more popular youtubers which then led me into a dive into what this person's actual background was to see if they had any Engineering, tech or Manufacturing experience. I found ZERO credentials beyond media. No surprise. 

[TobyCWood]

Id say they put the stickers in the right place!

[TobyCWood]

16 bolts later...BAM! 

The thing practically built itself! OK Im exaggerating. The toughest part though was reaching the T-nuts on the spool holder.

I need to take the wife shopping. I'll continue later today.

[TobyCWood]

After a few moments of confusion about the leveling knobs... they're pointed down Vs the typical pointing up from underneath... I got the PLA to stick and I am printing the first file on the SD card. I haven't a clue as to what it is but it's sticking to the belt and printing nicely. Right now it looks like a simple cube. We'll see.

So first blush experience with the CR30... Awesome. 

Compared to the iFactory 1. Way less belt width as well as way less belt adhesion. However, the build experience compared to iFactory? well it took me a week or two with the iFactory thanks to the craptastic parts they sent me Vs the CR30's "some assembly required". The CR30 took me about 20 minutes or so to get from the box to printing.The belt came already adjusted so I have zero perspective as to how to do the myriad adjustments for the belt... assuming one will ever have to. is it worth $1000? I'm not too sure of that. I'd have preferred a wider belt, i.e. more build area, Quite a bit more printing to do on it before I can answer if it's worth $1000. My gut tells me it's worth about $750. Perhaps in Oct thats what it will be! 

[Kurt at VR-FX]

Yo dude - I gotta say - I am THRILLED to hear that its printing nicely Right out of the Box - and also, that the assembly was Super Easy! That truly Bodes well for me - as I do NOT Like complicated Messy Printer builds!!! I may seriously consider getting one of these machines - based upon your further feedback.

-K-

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[markni...@gmail.com]

Andy,

From looking at CR30 pictures, it looks like Creality makes wide use of connecting hardware out of the standard Chinese hardware catalog.

For example, the upper corner brackets look like powdered coated metal, either steel or aluminum, where iFactory used easily breakable laser cut acrylic.

The lower brackets, connecting the 90 degree core XY stage to the belt carriage, look like 135 degree angle brackets, which appear to be screwed into the 2040 extrusions, which clearly must be threaded.

I guess the question I'm asking is, does the CR30 seem to be more solidly put together than the iFactory, due to Creality's use of metal connectors rather than iFactory's choice of 3d printed or acrylic connectors at critical vertices?

[TobyCWood]

"more solidly"? Oh yeah! BUT... does all the over Engineering actually add value? My impressions so far are no. First batch of demo (off the SD card) prints are optimal. Next I'll be doing some from the Tverse and possibly a sword. 

Regardless... David lost and Goliath won.

[TobyCWood]

So time to do my own slicing. Ideamaker set with the correct build area dimensions generated an object that scaled incorrectly (way small) when printed.

CrealityBelt will not work at all on my MacPro.

Fail!

[markni...@gmail.com]

Looks like it's finally available on the Creality site: https://www.creality3dofficial.com/products/cr-30-infinite-z-belt-3d-printer

$1049.00 USD

[TobyCWood]

The CR30 is leaps better in terms of QA than any other Creality 3D printer. Fit and finish is optimal and demonstrates that they CAN make a VERY respectable product Vs a slap it together cheap Mendel. If they had brought this level of quality to the CR5 then they would be only helping themselves to way more market share even at a higher price. It's worth it.

I wonder why two of the more popular tubers as well as a well known blogger were less enthusiastic if not down right negative about it. Perhaps the tuber who many out there attribute the printer to inhibited their judgement? I would not be surprised. 

Some things I see...

1. The X/Y steppers are full sized and not the typical mid sized laminates. Why? Possibly because they used a GT2 belt which looks like 9mm Vs the typical 6mm (I can't measure it right now it's printing) and they needed more torque at a lower current. Just guessing.  Sure looks beefy!

2. The belts' subsystem which includes the adjustable extrusion end caps with the bearings and the rollers, the two adjustable plates one of which has the HBP and the extrusion assembly are all factory assembled which means it's spot on... it also means I have no idea how it all works together. With the iFactory I built it and I saw exactly what went where and why and how to tram and adjust without needing to adjust again unless I have to disassemble  it which since I built it I knew how to do. The Creality does that for you which is great if you are the kind of user that wants it to work like a toaster. Not so great if you're a user that knows you'll eventually need to disassemble and or adjust things.
3. The belts' texture is way less aggressive than the iFactory which is good for a relatively clean print surface where it meets the belt (the foot). As such better tolerances for prints! but it also means it's trickier to get it to stick reliably. I found that if I adjust the level screws on the HBP mounted plate underneath while the print is doing it's' prime line I can dial in the stick on the fly no problem.

4. I used the white PLA they provided with the printer to do the first batch of sample, presliced prints(in the pic). The white plastic made it real easy to see that black material from the belt comes off on to the print which means the belt is a consumable! Which means that... yes the user WILL need to eventually disassemble it!

5. I like how they routed the belts across the Y axis in the front bottom which in turn kinda hides the two GT2 belts within the cross brace. See the pic...

6. No chintzy craptastic plastic parts! The entire gantry is very rigid. Awesomeness.

7. Yeah,... it's slooooow! It is what it is.. a belt based 3D Printer where every tool path prints on to the bed/belt.

8. Prints fall off the belt no problem, long prints do not warp at all. All the prints so far are spot on and optimal. See pic...

9. I want one. I don't need one, but heck I want it!! If only they had made the belt wider and had used linear guides!!!

[TobyCWood]

I guess one more thing... a bottomline...

So why not just have one of these as your go to machine. NOPE!

Yes, it's 45 degree tool path DOES open up options, but it's very slow speed and the fact that they used a teflon lined extruder makes it way less useful then it could be. Yeah... sure... one can upgrade the extruder.But... for more then ONE THOUSAND DOLLARS US one should NOT NEED TO DO THAT!!!

[TobyCWood]

One more...

The belt's seam... It's WAY more clean then the iFactory belt. WAY better! It is barely noticeable on the part at all. and most importantly, there are no threaded seams which wore every time they were printed on. 

So a question to those who backed the KS... What was the cost of shipping for the KS reward?

[jmpr...@gmail.com]

I backed the kickstarter, super early bird. I think shipping was around $40-50.

[Todd Chretien]

How slow are you printing with belt printers?  I'm up to setting 80mm/s as my default print speed and 20mm/s at the belt wall.  I find printing with more walls and no infill has help to make these style printers my main printer for production.  They are faster, use less material, and I don't have to monitor it for print removal.  I've always advised people to download the belt slicer and slice the parts they make most often and really study the sliced model preview and look for unsupported overhangs and layer separations.  You have to play around with the slicer because you won't have all the tools that you may be used to when using traditional machines.  If you can live with that, it can be a viable machine.

[TobyCWood]

I do not recall saying that it was not a viable machine. However, it is yet to be seen if Creality will continue to produce such an expensive machine. Remember they made their business take off with machines costing less than $250. I suspect they require the kind throughput they get with the lower priced 3DPs. I hope they continue with it. Regardless, someone will come along with a well designed alternative. Frankly I would be willing to pay more than twice the price of the CR30 for a wider X axis, linear guides, an all metal direct drive extruder and an easier to work with belt tensioning and replacement subsystem.

I use Ideamaker. It's default speed is set to 80mm/s. However, the wall speed, which is the speed at the belt, is 10.mm/s. 

Whoops! 

I just took a look while writing this. The "Enable Belt Wall" setting was Disabled! I guess going from machines that start at 150mm/s makes any other printer seem extremely slow. LOL!

[Todd Chretien]

I have a feeling there is some firmware settings that also slow down the printer.  In Cura there is a maximum belt speed is set extremely slow (it impacts if you turn on z-hop and moving from layer to layer).  I added that option back in (it is a code in the Cura Script) and cranked it up.  It limits the speed right up front in the gcode.  I'm not sure if Ideamaker  has the same limit setting.  There are other firmware based limits that probably keep these printers from really attaining high speeds.  I've switched my belt printers to Duet controllers, so making changes to acceleration and max speed settings are easy.  Also, the web interface shows requested and actual speeds (which is cool).  These are core xy machines, so they should be capable of high speed.  Not sure if the Creality V rollers can handle it.  I've got the iFactory machine and I've gotten it to move pretty quick when testing the board, but haven't done much straight up speed testing.  I might do a quick cube print when I'm done with orders.

[TobyCWood]

I would agree about the rollers. iFactory's, or I should say TronXYZ's, steel rollers and convex rails are as good as industrial linear guides. Way superior to Delrin/POM rollers.

Looking back at the White Knight... I wonder if one could buy a belt, like the CR30's Nylon belt, sized for the White Knight? Now that would be a nice machine!

[Todd Chretien]

Lots of places make custom belts.  I don't think anyone is using any proprietary "secret" belt material.  I bet you could find a similar belt material and have a belt made.  

After the podcast where you guys talked about the belt sander belt printer, I immediately thought about a local company that makes custom grinding belts. Once you put one of these printers together, it makes it easy to experiment.

I ran across someone who is using high temperature laminated canvas as a belt.  It is smooth and he uses glue stick to help with bonding.  

[tray]

Just needs to be propped up to fit the automated Aquanet spritzer underneath.

[tuchr...@gmail.com]

Exactly!  His current design doesn't have a heated bed, but his belt is impressive.

[TobyCWood]

Purty slick!