Hill 253.5 Mine Attack/Def Fire Sequence of Events

[btrap2930]

Monty!

My experience in scenarios with mines is admittedly very limited..so pardon if this is covered elsewhere or is nonsensical.  

Bottom line: How do we execute defensive fire vs a moving infantry unit that enters a mine hex, receives mine attack (for entry), and immediately exits the mine hex receiving a second mine attack (for exit).

1. Rules

a. Rules Convention [16B, 55B] says "Once a moving unit (infantry or vehicle) is fired upon, the defender forfeits all additional fire opportunities at that unit in the target hexes occupied prior to the initial fire."  (BT- I'll assume "fired upon" equates to "mine attack" or "minefield assault")

b. Rule 55.2 says to immediately execute minefield attack when unit moves into mine hex.

c. Rule 55.21 says units can continue moving after first "minefield assault" entry attack.

2. Situation:  Moving play moves an infantry unit X amt of hexes and then into a mine hex, causing, per 55.2, an immediate mine attack. 

Particular questions:

a. Can the defender "move back" the infantry unit to a hex moved into prior to the immediate mine attack, and attack the unit with Def Fire prior to resolving the known immediate mine attack?  But now the moving player knows that prior hex was targeted and will probably avoid that hex (ASL residual fire-ish..and SL allows one attack for all infantry units that moved through a particular hex).  This also reveals possible mine hexes along the route of movement for that unit.

b. Once the initial mine attack happens, does the Defending player get a chance to Def Fire into the mine hex prior to the moving unit leaving the mine hex?  Does the moving player have to announce he is continuing to move that unit, and give the defender a chance to Def Fire into the mine hex before the moving unit exits the mine hex? Same issue with the moving player now knowing the FP of attack into the hex and may avoid a planned movement of different units.

c. Once the "exit" mine attack (assault) happens, the moving unit can't be moved back into the mine hex for Def Fire, correct? This Q may be answered above!

I may have missed a few situations, but I think the above covers the main issue of the timing and execution of Def Fire vs a moving unit entering a mine hex. 

So what is the sequence of resolving Def Fire vs a moving infantry unit that enters a mine hex?

Thanks!

Brian

[Squad Leader Tournament & Ladder]

That is a sticky one.  The question is does 16.3 apply to Minefields?  it is not addressed in the rules at all.

a. Can the defender "move back" the infantry unit to a hex moved into prior to the immediate mine attack, and attack the unit with Def Fire prior to resolving the known immediate mine attack?

I don't think so,  unless optional defensive fire rules are in play.  All fire combats against infantry still need to occur in the defensive fire phase after Movement.

b.   Once the initial mine attack happens, does the Defending player get a chance to Def Fire into the mine hex prior to the moving unit leaving the mine hex?

I don't think so, at least there is no rule that specifically allows that.

c. Once the "exit" mine attack (assault) happens, the moving unit can't be moved back into the mine hex for Def Fire, correct? 

Same as b.

My Opinion...

Generally, all the rules have to work taken as a whole.  A Fire Combat is not a Minefield Assault (as 55.21 calls it), they are resolved differently, one against a hex and the other against a unit.  Finally, when in doubt, the disadvantage goes to the attacker (in this case the moving player).  

This means in practice, you can (must) move them back for defensive fire.  If the defensive fire has no affect they continue moving forward for more df until they reach their final hex.  If they break from df, then movement stops there and the mine attack results are ignored.  

This is slightly awkward because defensive fire may leave a unit KIAed in a minefield instead only broken in a prior hex.  A unit may also reveal a minefield only to break in a prior hex and never actually enter it after defensive fire.

There is no prefect answer, but I think it better to follow the rules taken as whole and live with the anomalies than to house rule things.

It is Monty's Tournament

It is Monty's tournament, so he has the final say on how to handle. it.

[Squad Leader Tournament & Ladder]

Just one more thing...

This follows the ESB's 79.12, where any defensive fire after the break down hex is ignored.  That feels like something to hang your hat on.

[Monty Jasper]

Hi Brian,

I wish there was a better answer, but at the Squad Leader level the answers to your questions are:

a. Can the defender "move back" the infantry unit to a hex moved into prior to the immediate mine attack, and attack the unit with Def Fire prior to resolving the known immediate mine attack?  - No.  Unless the optional 16.1-16.9 defensive fire rules are in play, you have to be able to move the unit back, negating a "mine assault" and revealing a mine hex during the Defensive Fire Phase.

b. Once the initial mine attack happens, does the Defending player get a chance to Def Fire into the mine hex prior to the moving unit leaving the mine hex?  - No.  For the same reason.  Defensive Fire happens in the Defensive Fire Phase and the unit has to be moved back.  

c.  c. Once the "exit" mine attack (assault) happens, the moving unit can't be moved back into the mine hex for Def Fire, correct? - See above.

In this situation, I personally like the optional Defensive Fire Rule solution, but it might be a pretty rare occurrence.  Without those rules in play, there are some interesting situations that can occur.  If the mine assault is successful in breaking or eliminating the unit, you may not want to bring the unit back on the board for a DF.  If the mine assault has no effect, you may want to shoot at the moving unit prior to entering the hex.   

Monty

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[btrap2930]

Thanks Monty- is definitely a rare-ish situation, unless mines are in a scenario, of course!

So to sum it up:  a moving unit triggers an immediately executed "minefield assault" in Movement Phase. Regardless of the minefield assault results, in Def Fire Phase the defending player now has the opportunity to attack that moving unit and can return that moving unit back to a prior hex (including minefield hex and hexes prior to minefield) for Def Fire attack(s) per usual 16.1.

Good stuff!  Thanks again everyone!

Brian