Dead 12v battery on 2011 think

[Howard]

I left the key on for 8hrs +,   The 12v was absolutely dead,( ie no dash lights, no interior light)  the car was stuck in park (ie, no push out of the way) not finding any way to access the 12v battery I went to autozone on foot and found 2 accesory cables with plugs and connected the wires together and plugged one end into a jumper box and the other into the accessory outlet in the Think, the interior light came on.  There was not enough amps to activate the relay to emable me to move the shift lever.  After an hour (I believe the current was less than 2 amps) i was able to step on the brake and move the shift lever once and move the car out of the way so the ICE could leave the car port.  Still not enough power to operate the main contactors to "start " the motor and get the DC to DC converter operating.  Tried to plug in the j1772 to charge the whole thing .  Won't charge with the 12v down too far.  I will try to find a small charger that will work better through the accessory outlet.   More later !!!!!

[Steve Bartell]

Howard, I also left something on in my Think and drained the 12 volt
battery. I plugged in a cigarette lighter style plug-in into the
plug-in, in the jockey box area plug. I split the corner and attached
a trickle charger to the correct, positive (+) and negative (-) wires.
It only took 20-30 minutes to allow me to activate the controls and
then start the car. I spoke to our certified mechanic, Ken Trice, for
Eastern Oregon and he said, once the car is started, the main lithium
batteries will kick in and charged the 12 volt. I let the car run
for 15 -20 minutes, then plugged in the main car charger. It's been a
few days and everything seems to be operating fine. But, Ken Trice
did say, never try to jump the 12 volt battery, like you would do on a
internal combustion engine (although it would be extremely difficult
to do, considering it's location), always jump/charge through the
cigarette lighter. So, I'm building a jumper type cable that will
have cigarette style plugs on both ends so, that I will safely (!?)
jump/charge the 12 volt battery, from another car. I hope this will
help in the future if my 12 volt battery gets low again.
Steve

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[AaronW]

What logic would there be to not bringing the charing directly to the battery? If you want risk the current you are dumping through the cars circutry like you did is risky.

Aaron

Sent from my LG phone

Steve Bartell <mrbub...@gmail.com> wrote:

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[Oregontec]

Reasons for using the power port to charge the dead accessory or 12 volt battery!

1. It is the only factory recommended way to charge the 12 volt accessory battery when it's too low to bring the pcu and dc-dc converter online. 

2. The circuits for the power port are protected with a fuse, which in turn protects the entire car from layman mistakes of arcing jumper cables, reversed jumper cables, high inrush currents 

to the dead battery and PCU, which have been noted by the factory to have blown a few PCU's.  PCU's nor any of the other on board computers are covered under warranty if they go up in smoke due to ignoring the factory's recommended charge method.

3. The power port is capable of handling all the current needed to bring the system back online in a safe and controlled method.

Feel free to call if this still doesn't make sense

Ken Price

Pacific Repair Center

Authorized Service center for Think North America

703 C avenue

La Grande, Oregon,  97850

541-963-3175 office

541-910-2910 cell 

[Aaron Williams]

Ken,

 

You said "the only factory recommended way to charge the 12 volt accessory battery" but I looked it up in the owners manual and there is only one way listed, hooking up jumper cables from one battery to the other.  This is on page 4-31.  If the factory does not want the car jumped like they tell us to but expect us to do it differantly there needs to be information released to this effect.

 

If you are going to trickle charge only through the power port I agree that it is a way to charge.  But the origional comment was that it was being jumped from another car through the port.  When the other battery is connected to the dead battery it will dump amperage pretty quickly as the two batteries start to ballance out.  This is a large inrush to dump through some pretty small wires.  It is just as easy to connect wrong through the power port as it is to cross the battery cables.  If things are connected backwards damage will likely occure before you even see a spark, far faster than a fuse could react to. 

 

Actually, the longer a battery sits dead the harder it is on the battery.  While slow charging is great, it needs to happen after the battery gets an initial charge back into it.  Many modern chargers (smart chargers) will not excite if the battery is totally dead.  You need to dump amperage into the battery to get it excited and then slow charge them.

Aaron

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[Howard]

I charged most of the day with the jumper box and a cable with two plugs.  The battery has regained some of the charge but not enough to set off the main contactors . I got a 6 amp charger and another plug, changed out the 3 amp fuse for a 15 amp fuse in the plug and have the charger running for 3 more hours.  It is charging at 13+ volts.   Still no main contactors. The reduced power light is blinking but there is no "motor start" or any other clicks, wheers, whines or traction power.  I won't sleep well tonight.

 

Howard Haynes

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[Howard]

the power limit light is still lit and so is the12v battery light.    AAAARRRRRRGGGGG!!!!!!

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[Richard Samuels]

Do you know of an affordable charger that can be used to charge the battery through the power port. I'd like to have one on hand, just in case.

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[Howard]

It has gone to the Clinic for resuscitation.   Made use of all the yearly AAA Dues, today.

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[Steve Bartell]

Thanks, Ken
I think everyone needs to understand this and we all need to
develop a good jumper option to deal with the differences between our
electric cars and gas cars. Steve

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[Oregontec]

Aaron,  you are correct the only printed info as of now to the customers about charging the 12 volt battery is what you pointed out in the user manual.  

I am only sharing the information given to us techs by the Think technicians while they were in Portland doing heater retrofits with us.  Just sharing the insight.

I'm not interested in arguing/debating the logistics or facts that were given to us by the company experts, you may do as you see fit in caring for your car,

but try not to bash others for their attempts in caring for their own cars. My customers here have taken action based on the info we have received from Think.  

If you feel there's a need to converse about this further my phone line is open!

[Aaron Williams]

I was not going to respond back but I am truely puzzled.  You said, "...but try not to bash others..."  I have reread every word I wrote and can't find any place where I "bashed" anyone.  I did ask why the person was jumping their battery through their accesory port.  My concern was the likely damage to the car from doing this.  In general concern is not considered bashing.  If it is, I openly apoligize to anyone who felt bashed. 

 

Back to the point, junping your car, any car, through an accesory port is a very bad idea.  You are asking for problems.  The amperage flow that happens when the batteries try to equalize is way more than should ever be done through such a small circuit. 

 

Similar but very differant, charging your car with a very small charger through the accesory port is an easy way to connect and likely will be no problem as long as the charger is lower than the amperage the fuse is capable of carrying.  Upsizing the fuse is never an acceptable solution to ge tthe undersized circuit to carry more current.

Aaron

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[Oregontec]

Thanks Steve, Oh and by the way, for those that are setting up a charge/jump cable or charger battery maintainer for their cars,  the power port circuit is fused at 15 amps so be sure your charger is 

less than that, I would shoot for 12 or 13 amps if it were me to keep from heating the wiring for that circuit much. Be sure not to change or replace that fuse with anything larger than a 15, that is the 

ampacity of the wiring used for it.       ciao

[Myles Twete]

I'd think that an Anderson 50-amp plastic DC connector (the gray ones) could
be mounted to the car somewhere accessible in the front that is directly
connected to the 12v battery. With that, you can modify a jumper cable to
include a mating Anderson connector at one end. You could also have
external chargers plug into this to charge at high rates and at the 14.7v
equalization voltage periodically.
Except for the battery access part of this, this would be easy to do.
-Myles

[Myles Twete]

Guess no one told you about THINK’s 24-hour warrantee towing program…

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[AaronW]

Like this. Make up a 2' pigtail and har wire it to the battery.

Sent from my LG phone

Myles Twete <mat...@gmail.com> wrote:

>I'd think that an Anderson 50-amp plastic DC connector (the gray ones) could
>be mounted to the car somewhere accessible in the front that is directly
>connected to the 12v battery. With that, you can modify a jumper cable to
>include a mating Anderson connector at one end. You could also have
>external chargers plug into this to charge at high rates and at the 14.7v
>equalization voltage periodically.
>Except for the battery access part of this, this would be easy to do.
>-Myles
>
>-----Original Message-----

>From: 2011-think-ev...@googlegroups.com
>[mailto:2011-think-ev...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Steve
>Bartell
>Sent: Tuesday, November 20, 2012 3:36 PM
>To: 2011-think-ev...@googlegroups.com
>Subject: Re: Dead 12v battery on 2011 think
>
>Thanks, Ken
> I think everyone needs to understand this and we all need to develop a
>good jumper option to deal with the differences between our electric cars
>and gas cars. Steve
>

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[AaronW]

I was wondering about this when the thread started. If something was left on by the customer it is not a waranty failure. Is think willing to pay for waranty on a customer caused problem? Some manufactures do and some do not.

Sent from my LG phone

Myles Twete <mat...@gmail.com> wrote:

>Guess no one told you about THINK's 24-hour warrantee towing program.

>
>
>
>From: 2011-think-ev...@googlegroups.com
>[mailto:2011-think-ev...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Howard
>Sent: Tuesday, November 20, 2012 3:06 PM
>To: 2011-think-ev...@googlegroups.com
>Subject: RE: Dead 12v battery on 2011 think
>
>
>
>It has gone to the Clinic for resuscitation. Made use of all the yearly
>AAA Dues, today.
>
>
>

>From: 2011-think-ev...@googlegroups.com
>[mailto:2011-think-ev...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Howard
>Sent: Monday, November 19, 2012 11:58 PM
>To: 2011-think-ev...@googlegroups.com
>Subject: RE: Dead 12v battery on 2011 think
>
>
>
>the power limit light is still lit and so is the12v battery light.
>AAAARRRRRRGGGGG!!!!!!
>
>
>

>From: 2011-think-ev...@googlegroups.com
>[mailto:2011-think-ev...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Howard
>Sent: Monday, November 19, 2012 11:48 PM
>To: 2011-think-ev...@googlegroups.com
>Subject: RE: Dead 12v battery on 2011 think
>
>
>
>I charged most of the day with the jumper box and a cable with two plugs.
>The battery has regained some of the charge but not enough to set off the
>main contactors . I got a 6 amp charger and another plug, changed out the 3
>amp fuse for a 15 amp fuse in the plug and have the charger running for 3
>more hours. It is charging at 13+ volts. Still no main contactors. The
>reduced power light is blinking but there is no "motor start" or any other
>clicks, wheers, whines or traction power. I won't sleep well tonight.
>
>
>
>Howard Haynes
>

>From: 2011-think-ev...@googlegroups.com
>[mailto:2011-think-ev...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Howard
>Sent: Monday, November 19, 2012 1:06 PM
>To: j...@hawthorneauto.com
>Cc: 2011-think-ev...@googlegroups.com
>Subject: Dead 12v battery on 2011 think
>
>
>
>I left the key on for 8hrs +, The 12v was absolutely dead,( ie no dash
>lights, no interior light) the car was stuck in park (ie, no push out of
>the way) not finding any way to access the 12v battery I went to autozone on
>foot and found 2 accesory cables with plugs and connected the wires together
>and plugged one end into a jumper box and the other into the accessory
>outlet in the Think, the interior light came on. There was not enough amps
>to activate the relay to emable me to move the shift lever. After an hour
>(I believe the current was less than 2 amps) i was able to step on the brake
>and move the shift lever once and move the car out of the way so the ICE
>could leave the car port. Still not enough power to operate the main
>contactors to "start " the motor and get the DC to DC converter operating.
>Tried to plug in the j1772 to charge the whole thing . Won't charge with
>the 12v down too far. I will try to find a small charger that will work
>better through the accessory outlet. More later !!!!!
>
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[Howard]

I thought about that but decided to go with AAA because I spend a good chunk each year on dues!  (I know that system better.)  Got a note from Hawthorne Auto clinic.    I fried the PCU leaving it on all night.  Replacement is coming! SOOOOON!   It may cost me $1700 to get it fixed - MY Bad!

lesson learned - don't leave the key ion over night!   (ICE - this fries Points or computers in ignition as well as battery!)  (Think - fries PCU)  I hate being the beta tester!!!!!

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[Bryce Nash]

Be careful with something like this! A large wire straight from the battery (especially without any fuse) can be a real fire hazard if you're not extremely careful with your wire routing and clipping. In my opinion, the risks and hassle would definitely outweigh the benefit, but to each their own, of course.

Bryce

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[Howard]

I took a 12v plug with an integral fuse and wired insulated alligator clips
to it (Red + and Black -) these I could attach to the 6 am battery charger
(carefully red to black )it worked to recharge the battery but the damage
had already been done to the PCU.

--

[Myles Twete]

Sure...I'm 31 years post-EE degree and have worked around electricity and
electronics for decades. I converted my boat to electric, have been
restoring a 1920 Milburn Light Electric car and R&R'd its drum controller.
And I've been involved in OEVA for 19 years and have been working with EV
folks much of this time.
The charging plug arrangement I'm talking about is nothing new and isn't
anything significantly challenging.
I didn't mention a fuse simply because I wanted to be brief. But as you
would notice on my boat, my antique EV and conversions that others have done
in the OEVA over the years, we know to pick the right gauge wires, know to
choose the right size fuse and know the importance of proper mounting and
restraints.
But thanks for the warning :-)
-Myles
www.evalbum.com/492
www.evalbum.com/348
www.evalbum.com/1018
etc..

-----Original Message-----
From: 2011-think-ev...@googlegroups.com
[mailto:2011-think-ev...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Bryce
Nash

--

[Myles Twete]

Is there a warning in the manual not to leave the key ON all night with a charger slow-charging the 12v battery?  If there’s no such warning against doing this because it will void the warrantee, I wouldn’t accept anything short of a free PCU.  It shouldn’t cost you anything.

Looking at the manual, I do see in the Warnings section “To ensure safety, the vehicle must only be charged from a

grounded power supply. No other connection must be used.”

 

But that is referring to charging the main pack.  I see no other related warnings, but maybe I’m just blind…

 

-Myles

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[Bryce Nash]

Myles,

This is a mailing list and many (most?) of the members of the list don't have your level of experience, thus the warning to those who may not have considered or understood the risks.

No need to be snippy, I'm just trying to be helpful.

Bryce

> --
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[Howard]

what I did was- Charged the traction battery until it finished charging.  Turned the key on to check the state of charge and shut the door to tend to something else.  Shut off the lights and went inside.  Next morning I was wondering (brain fade ) where my keys were?  Finally found them in the Think in the on position.  Now, I cannot remember if the I had "started" the car or just left it in the on position.  The battery was so discharged that there was no response at all. NO LIghts anywhere in the car.  I used the battery Jump pack with 12v out let and  let it "charge" for a while.  Got lights when turning on the key but was getting power limit and battery low lights and no start.  I kept on charging most of the day but could not get the car to "Start" or to charge on the traction battery.   Tested the 12v battery voltage and finally got 12.56v.  Still no luck on the start and the Power limit and battery lights were still lit.

 

No amount of warnings would have prevented stupidity.   These are so new that all of us are really Beta Testing.  All the in house testing of a product cannot replace the stupidity of the final user.  We can find things to do that the testing engineers cannot even imagine.( ie, if you want to test the durability of a product, give it to a 5year old) . As it stands now,  Think will replace the PCU but it looks like I may get to foot the Labor. 

 

I don't really want to think what the Think engineers were saying after hearing this tale of Stupidity on the part of the owner. 

 

"If you make anything truly Fool Proof, then only a fool would want to use it!"

 

 

 

Happy Thanksgiving day.  May you all remember all the things you really do have to be thankful for.

 

Howard Haynes

Independence

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[Myles Twete]

Thanks for the clarification Howard…I hadn’t read your chronicle close enough earlier but now get the picture… J.

So what I’m gathering is that your recharging had nothing to do with bricking your PCU.

 

What killed the PCU is a known issue and risk: Letting the 12v battery get depleted---and there’s no warning we’ve received either from the manual or from THINK’s representatives (only thru the Yahoo THINK Group grapevine) about this risk.  Well, there is one more place---the news media: The City of Evansville Indiana were donated 5 THINK electrics in 2011 and 4 of them got bricked sometime before April of this year.  They had been charging them via the 110v EVSE (Leviton, Clipper Creek ?).  They had been plugged in without monitoring for some time.  Well, at some point, someone checked on these cars and found that 2 of the cars wouldn’t start, wouldn’t take a charge and after being sent to the service center they found that the PCU’s had been bricked.  The news article informed that this was due to chronic 110v (level 1) charging.  But as folks who commented to the article noted, Level 1 charging wasn’t to blame.  What was to blame was that the car had either failed to start charging or had started, then stopped, but with THINK’s PCU/charging system still drawing power from the 12v system.  At some point, the battery got depleted and the PCU got bricked.  This is not a new issue and it’s a known risk.  You’ve just shown another way (and a faster one) to get there.  With such a huge risk, wouldn’t you expect THINK, their agents or service centers to issue a BIG WARNING against leaving the key in the car overnight?

 

Now, in your case, you couldn’t have turned the key to the start position.  Why?  Had you done that, the 12v battery would have been fully charged, not depleted---though the traction pack would have drawn down some overnight.

 

With such a huge and costly risk, why doesn’t THINK come out publicly with a warning note, or better, a fix?  Leave the key in the ignition or lights on overnight with an ICE car and the most you’d find is that the battery needs to be jumped for a minute, then you start up.  But in the case of the 2011 THINK City, the risk is a $1700 repair job?!?  That’s a design flaw that the manufacturer has chosen not to completely mitigate.  THINK has addressed one vector to this risk by ensuring that charging won’t suddenly stop inappropriately overnight (the issue I had with mine).  But as you have experienced, there are other vectors.  Leave lights ON overnight…dead battery…dead PCU?  Leave key in ignition and turned to the 1^st or 2^nd  position overnight…dead PCU.  That’s a harsh penalty for User OOPS.  Maybe if there were MAJOR WARNING notices about this, but we haven’t seen that!

 

Again, this issue isn’t new, so we’re not Beta testing on this issue.

 

Best of luck with this Howard...  THINK should issue widely a warning that a dead 12v battery can brick the PCU.  They should include a list of all the known ways that cases this can happen, what our liability is in regard to any of these, and what, if anything, they are planning to do to mitigate the risk.

 

I’m very thankful that this, my only car these days, is functioning very well.  If the PCU SW upgrades that are beginning to be deployed out there around the country pans out, I’ll like this car so much more after getting that SW upgrade since with it the car won’t slow to 52mph going up Sylvan anymore.

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[Richard Samuels]

What causes the PCU to brick? I don't understand why a dead battery would do it. The average life of the 12v battery is probably about 3 years. Will we need to replace our batteries before they show any sign of failure or risk bricking the PCU?

I plan to have my non-technical wife use the Th!nk primarily as it is better suited to her driving than mine as the Leaf is a much better freeway car and I do much more freeway driving than she does. She is probably no more likely to kill the 12v battery than I am, but she would be at a loss if it wouldn't start.

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[Myles Twete]

Who knows?  It’s a black box.  Get me a schematic and I could probably offer my educated guess.  Assuming the PCU needs replacement, it must be more than just embedded firmware losing its memory---unless boot loader segment goes with it... Evidently the PCU doesn’t shut off its energy draw at 10.5v or some other reasonable low 12v battery voltage but instead it just keeps drawing power---I’d guess at some point a hardware latch-up occurs.

 

I’ve not heard anyone with contacts on the THINK end explain why this happens…so we’re just left with vectors that can cause the death scenario and knowledge that the risk is high if the battery gets depleted while the PCU is drawing power from the 12v battery.

 

-MT

 

From: 2011-think-ev...@googlegroups.com [mailto:2011-think-ev...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Richard Samuels
Sent: Thursday, November 22, 2012 10:54 AM
To: 2011-think-ev...@googlegroups.com
Subject: RE: Dead 12v battery on 2011 think

 

What causes the PCU to brick?

[Jim Houser]

Hi Richard, et al,

As I understand it, turning the key to the first "on" position, basically the accessory position, energizes some components of the PCU without the simultaneous activation of the PCU cooling system that would occur with the key� in the second, or "running" position. It is the prolonged energizing of the PCU (like o/night) without cooling it that causes the damage. The draining of the 12V battery occurs later in the process and is coincidental to this issue. I will reach out to TH!NK tech support to obtain confirmation of my understanding of the issue at hand.

Regards,

Jim

-- 
Jim Houser
Hawthorne Auto Clinic, Inc.
4307 SE Hawthorne Blvd.
Portland, OR 97215
503-234-2119
503-234-4230, fax
www.hawthorneauto.com
j...@hawthorneauto.com

On 11/22/2012 10:53 AM, Richard Samuels wrote:

What causes the PCU to brick? I don't understand why a dead battery would do it. The average life of the 12v battery is probably about 3 years. Will we need to replace our batteries before they show any sign of failure or risk bricking the PCU?

I plan to have my non-technical wife use the Th!nk primarily as it is better suited to her driving than mine as the Leaf is a much better freeway car and I do much more freeway driving than she does. She is probably no more likely to kill the 12v battery than I am, but she would be at a loss if it wouldn't start.

On Nov 22, 2012 10:39 AM, "Myles Twete" <mat...@gmail.com> wrote:

Thanks for the clarification Howard�I hadn�t read your chronicle close enough earlier but now get the picture� J.

So what I�m gathering is that your recharging had nothing to do with bricking your PCU.

�

What killed the PCU is a known issue and risk: Letting the 12v battery get depleted---and there�s no warning we�ve received either from the manual or from THINK�s representatives (only thru the Yahoo THINK Group grapevine) about this risk.� Well, there is one more place---the news media: The City of Evansville Indiana were donated 5 THINK electrics in 2011 and 4 of them got bricked sometime before April of this year.� They had been charging them via the 110v EVSE (Leviton, Clipper Creek ?). �They had been plugged in without monitoring for some time.� Well, at some point, someone checked on these cars and found that 2 of the cars wouldn�t start, wouldn�t take a charge and after being sent to the service center they found that the PCU�s had been bricked.� The news article informed that this was due to chronic 110v (level 1) charging.� But as folks who commented to the article noted, Level 1 charging wasn�t to blame.� What was to blame was that the car had either failed to start charging or had started, then stopped, but with THINK�s PCU/charging system still drawing power from the 12v system.� At some point, the battery got depleted and the PCU got bricked.� This is not a new issue and it�s a known risk.� You�ve just shown another way (and a faster one) to get there.� With such a huge risk, wouldn�t you expect THINK, their agents or service centers to issue a BIG WARNING against leaving the key in the car overnight?

�

Now, in your case, you couldn�t have turned the key to the start position.� Why?� Had you done that, the 12v battery would have been fully charged, not depleted---though the traction pack would have drawn down some overnight.

�

With such a huge and costly risk, why doesn�t THINK come out publicly with a warning note, or better, a fix?� Leave the key in the ignition or lights on overnight with an ICE car and the most you�d find is that the battery needs to be jumped for a minute, then you start up.� But in the case of the 2011 THINK City, the risk is a $1700 repair job?!?� That�s a design flaw that the manufacturer has chosen not to completely mitigate.� THINK has addressed one vector to this risk by ensuring that charging won�t suddenly stop inappropriately overnight (the issue I had with mine).� But as you have experienced, there are other vectors.� Leave lights ON overnight�dead battery�dead PCU?� Leave key in ignition and turned to the 1^st or 2^nd �position overnight�dead PCU.� That�s a harsh penalty for User OOPS.� Maybe if there were MAJOR WARNING notices about this, but we haven�t seen that!

�

Again, this issue isn�t new, so we�re not Beta testing on this issue.

�

Best of luck with this Howard...� THINK should issue widely a warning that a dead 12v battery can brick the PCU.� They should include a list of all the known ways that cases this can happen, what our liability is in regard to any of these, and what, if anything, they are planning to do to mitigate the risk.

�

I�m very thankful that this, my only car these days, is functioning very well.� If the PCU SW upgrades that are beginning to be deployed out there around the country pans out, I�ll like this car so much more after getting that SW upgrade since with it the car won�t slow to 52mph going up Sylvan anymore.

�

-Myles

�

From: 2011-think-ev...@googlegroups.com [mailto:2011-think-ev...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Howard
Sent: Thursday, November 22, 2012 8:21 AM
To: 2011-think-ev...@googlegroups.com
Subject: RE: Dead 12v battery on 2011 think

�

what I did was- Charged the traction battery until it finished charging.� Turned the key on to check the state of charge and shut the door to tend to something else.� Shut off the lights and went inside.� Next morning I was wondering (brain fade ) where my keys were?� Finally found them in the Think in the on position.� Now, I cannot remember if the I had "started" the car or just left it in the on position.� The battery was so discharged that there was no response at all. NO LIghts anywhere in the car.� I used the battery Jump pack with 12v out let and� let it "charge" for a while.� Got lights when turning on the key but was getting power limit and battery low lights and no start.� I kept on charging most of the day but could not get the car to "Start" or to charge on the traction battery.�� Tested the 12v battery voltage and finally got 12.56v.� Still no luck on the start and the Power limit and battery lights were still lit.

�

No amount of warnings would have prevented stupidity.�� These are so new that all of us are really Beta Testing.� All the in house testing of a product cannot replace the stupidity of the final user.� We can find things to do that the testing engineers cannot even imagine.( ie, if you want to test the durability of a product, give it to a 5year old) . As it stands now,� Think will replace the PCU but it looks like I may get to foot the Labor.�

�

I don't really want to think what the Think engineers were saying after hearing this tale of Stupidity on the part of the owner.�

�

"If you make anything truly Fool Proof, then only a fool would want to use it!"

�

�

�

Happy Thanksgiving day.� May you all remember all the things you really do have to be thankful for.

�

Howard Haynes

Independence

�

From: 2011-think-ev...@googlegroups.com [mailto:2011-think-ev...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Myles Twete
Sent: Wednesday, November 21, 2012 3:44 PM
To: 2011-think-ev...@googlegroups.com
Subject: RE: Dead 12v battery on 2011 think

�

Is there a warning in the manual not to leave the key ON all night with a charger slow-charging the 12v battery?� If there�s no such warning against doing this because it will void the warrantee, I wouldn�t accept anything short of a free PCU.� It shouldn�t cost you anything.

Looking at the manual, I do see in the Warnings section �To ensure safety, the vehicle must only be charged from a

grounded power supply. No other connection must be used.�

�

But that is referring to charging the main pack.� I see no other related warnings, but maybe I�m just blind�

�

-Myles

�

From: 2011-think-ev...@googlegroups.com [mailto:2011-think-ev...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Howard
Sent: Wednesday, November 21, 2012 11:56 AM
To: 2011-think-ev...@googlegroups.com
Subject: RE: Dead 12v battery on 2011 think

�

I thought about that but decided to go with AAA because I spend a good chunk each year on dues!� (I know that system better.)� Got a note from Hawthorne Auto clinic.��� I fried the PCU leaving it on all night.� Replacement is coming! SOOOOON!�� It may cost me $1700 to get it fixed - MY Bad!

lesson learned - don't leave the key ion over night!�� (ICE - this fries Points or computers in ignition as well as battery!)� (Think - fries PCU)� I hate being the beta tester!!!!!

�

From: 2011-think-ev...@googlegroups.com [mailto:2011-think-ev...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Myles Twete
Sent: Wednesday, November 21, 2012 11:06 AM
To: 2011-think-ev...@googlegroups.com
Subject: RE: Dead 12v battery on 2011 think

�

Guess no one told you about THINK�s 24-hour warrantee towing program�

�

From: 2011-think-ev...@googlegroups.com [mailto:2011-think-ev...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Howard
Sent: Tuesday, November 20, 2012 3:06 PM
To: 2011-think-ev...@googlegroups.com
Subject: RE: Dead 12v battery on 2011 think

�

It has gone to the Clinic for resuscitation.�� Made use of all the yearly AAA Dues, today.

�

From: 2011-think-ev...@googlegroups.com [mailto:2011-think-ev...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Howard
Sent: Monday, November 19, 2012 11:58 PM
To: 2011-think-ev...@googlegroups.com
Subject: RE: Dead 12v battery on 2011 think

�

the power limit light is still lit and so is the12v battery light.��� AAAARRRRRRGGGGG!!!!!!

�

From: 2011-think-ev...@googlegroups.com [mailto:2011-think-ev...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Howard
Sent: Monday, November 19, 2012 11:48 PM
To: 2011-think-ev...@googlegroups.com
Subject: RE: Dead 12v battery on 2011 think

�

I charged most of the day with the jumper box and a cable with two plugs.� The battery has regained some of the charge but not enough to set off the main contactors . I got a 6 amp charger and another plug, changed out the 3 amp fuse for a 15 amp fuse in the plug and have the charger running for 3 more hours.� It is charging at 13+ volts.�� Still no main contactors. The reduced power light is blinking but there is no "motor start" or any other clicks, wheers, whines or traction power.� I won't sleep well tonight.

�

Howard Haynes

From: 2011-think-ev...@googlegroups.com [mailto:2011-think-ev...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Howard
Sent: Monday, November 19, 2012 1:06 PM
To: j...@hawthorneauto.com
Cc: 2011-think-ev...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Dead 12v battery on 2011 think

�

I left the key on for 8hrs +,�� The 12v was absolutely dead,( ie no dash lights, no interior light)� the car was stuck in park (ie, no push out of the way) not finding any way to access the 12v battery I went to autozone on foot and found 2 accesory cables with plugs and connected the wires together and plugged one end into a jumper box and the other into the accessory outlet in the Think, the interior light came on.� There was not enough amps to activate the relay to emable me to move the shift lever.� After an hour (I believe the current was less than 2 amps) i was able to step on the brake and move the shift lever once and move the car out of the way so the ICE could leave the car port.� Still not enough power to operate the main contactors to "start " the motor and get the DC to DC converter operating.� Tried to plug in the j1772 to charge the whole thing .� Won't charge with the 12v down too far.� I will try to find a small charger that will work better through the accessory outlet.�� More later !!!!!

--
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--
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--
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--
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--
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[Richard Samuels]

Thanks Jim. That explanation makes sense. We'll be careful not to leave it on.

When you talk to them, can you see if we can get more technical information about our cars. We have a number of owners who have technical expertise and could take advantage of it.

On Nov 22, 2012 11:40 AM, "Jim Houser" <j...@hawthorneauto.com> wrote:

Hi Richard, et al,

As I understand it, turning the key to the first "on" position, basically the accessory position, energizes some components of the PCU without the simultaneous activation of the PCU cooling system that would occur with the key  in the second, or "running" position. It is the prolonged energizing of the PCU (like o/night) without cooling it that causes the damage. The draining of the 12V battery occurs later in the process and is coincidental to this issue. I will reach out to TH!NK tech support to obtain confirmation of my understanding of the issue at hand.

Regards,

Jim

-- 
Jim Houser
Hawthorne Auto Clinic, Inc.
4307 SE Hawthorne Blvd.
Portland, OR 97215
503-234-2119
503-234-4230, fax
www.hawthorneauto.com
j...@hawthorneauto.com

On 11/22/2012 10:53 AM, Richard Samuels wrote:

What causes the PCU to brick? I don't understand why a dead battery would do it. The average life of the 12v battery is probably about 3 years. Will we need to replace our batteries before they show any sign of failure or risk bricking the PCU?

I plan to have my non-technical wife use the Th!nk primarily as it is better suited to her driving than mine as the Leaf is a much better freeway car and I do much more freeway driving than she does. She is probably no more likely to kill the 12v battery than I am, but she would be at a loss if it wouldn't start.

On Nov 22, 2012 10:39 AM, "Myles Twete" <mat...@gmail.com> wrote:

Thanks for the clarification Howard…I hadn’t read your chronicle close enough earlier but now get the picture… J.

So what I’m gathering is that your recharging had nothing to do with bricking your PCU.

 

What killed the PCU is a known issue and risk: Letting the 12v battery get depleted---and there’s no warning we’ve received either from the manual or from THINK’s representatives (only thru the Yahoo THINK Group grapevine) about this risk.  Well, there is one more place---the news media: The City of Evansville Indiana were donated 5 THINK electrics in 2011 and 4 of them got bricked sometime before April of this year.  They had been charging them via the 110v EVSE (Leviton, Clipper Creek ?).  They had been plugged in without monitoring for some time.  Well, at some point, someone checked on these cars and found that 2 of the cars wouldn’t start, wouldn’t take a charge and after being sent to the service center they found that the PCU’s had been bricked.  The news article informed that this was due to chronic 110v (level 1) charging.  But as folks who commented to the article noted, Level 1 charging wasn’t to blame.  What was to blame was that the car had either failed to start charging or had started, then stopped, but with THINK’s PCU/charging system still drawing power from the 12v system.  At some point, the battery got depleted and the PCU got bricked.  This is not a new issue and it’s a known risk.  You’ve just shown another way (and a faster one) to get there.  With such a huge risk, wouldn’t you expect THINK, their agents or service centers to issue a BIG WARNING against leaving the key in the car overnight?

 

Now, in your case, you couldn’t have turned the key to the start position.  Why?  Had you done that, the 12v battery would have been fully charged, not depleted---though the traction pack would have drawn down some overnight.

 

With such a huge and costly risk, why doesn’t THINK come out publicly with a warning note, or better, a fix?  Leave the key in the ignition or lights on overnight with an ICE car and the most you’d find is that the battery needs to be jumped for a minute, then you start up.  But in the case of the 2011 THINK City, the risk is a $1700 repair job?!?  That’s a design flaw that the manufacturer has chosen not to completely mitigate.  THINK has addressed one vector to this risk by ensuring that charging won’t suddenly stop inappropriately overnight (the issue I had with mine).  But as you have experienced, there are other vectors.  Leave lights ON overnight…dead battery…dead PCU?  Leave key in ignition and turned to the 1^st or 2^nd  position overnight…dead PCU.  That’s a harsh penalty for User OOPS.  Maybe if there were MAJOR WARNING notices about this, but we haven’t seen that!

 

Again, this issue isn’t new, so we’re not Beta testing on this issue.

 

Best of luck with this Howard...  THINK should issue widely a warning that a dead 12v battery can brick the PCU.  They should include a list of all the known ways that cases this can happen, what our liability is in regard to any of these, and what, if anything, they are planning to do to mitigate the risk.

 

I’m very thankful that this, my only car these days, is functioning very well.  If the PCU SW upgrades that are beginning to be deployed out there around the country pans out, I’ll like this car so much more after getting that SW upgrade since with it the car won’t slow to 52mph going up Sylvan anymore.

 

-Myles

 

From: 2011-think-ev...@googlegroups.com [mailto:2011-think-ev...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Howard
Sent: Thursday, November 22, 2012 8:21 AM
To: 2011-think-ev...@googlegroups.com
Subject: RE: Dead 12v battery on 2011 think

 

what I did was- Charged the traction battery until it finished charging.  Turned the key on to check the state of charge and shut the door to tend to something else.  Shut off the lights and went inside.  Next morning I was wondering (brain fade ) where my keys were?  Finally found them in the Think in the on position.  Now, I cannot remember if the I had "started" the car or just left it in the on position.  The battery was so discharged that there was no response at all. NO LIghts anywhere in the car.  I used the battery Jump pack with 12v out let and  let it "charge" for a while.  Got lights when turning on the key but was getting power limit and battery low lights and no start.  I kept on charging most of the day but could not get the car to "Start" or to charge on the traction battery.   Tested the 12v battery voltage and finally got 12.56v.  Still no luck on the start and the Power limit and battery lights were still lit.

 

No amount of warnings would have prevented stupidity.   These are so new that all of us are really Beta Testing.  All the in house testing of a product cannot replace the stupidity of the final user.  We can find things to do that the testing engineers cannot even imagine.( ie, if you want to test the durability of a product, give it to a 5year old) . As it stands now,  Think will replace the PCU but it looks like I may get to foot the Labor. 

 

I don't really want to think what the Think engineers were saying after hearing this tale of Stupidity on the part of the owner. 

 

"If you make anything truly Fool Proof, then only a fool would want to use it!"

 

 

 

Happy Thanksgiving day.  May you all remember all the things you really do have to be thankful for.

 

Howard Haynes

Independence

 

From: 2011-think-ev...@googlegroups.com [mailto:2011-think-ev...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Myles Twete
Sent: Wednesday, November 21, 2012 3:44 PM
To: 2011-think-ev...@googlegroups.com
Subject: RE: Dead 12v battery on 2011 think

 

Is there a warning in the manual not to leave the key ON all night with a charger slow-charging the 12v battery?  If there’s no such warning against doing this because it will void the warrantee, I wouldn’t accept anything short of a free PCU.  It shouldn’t cost you anything.

Looking at the manual, I do see in the Warnings section “To ensure safety, the vehicle must only be charged from a

grounded power supply. No other connection must be used.”

 

But that is referring to charging the main pack.  I see no other related warnings, but maybe I’m just blind…

 

-Myles

 

From: 2011-think-ev...@googlegroups.com [mailto:2011-think-ev...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Howard

Sent: Wednesday, November 21, 2012 11:56 AM
To: 2011-think-ev...@googlegroups.com
Subject: RE: Dead 12v battery on 2011 think

 

I thought about that but decided to go with AAA because I spend a good chunk each year on dues!  (I know that system better.)  Got a note from Hawthorne Auto clinic.    I fried the PCU leaving it on all night.  Replacement is coming! SOOOOON!   It may cost me $1700 to get it fixed - MY Bad!

lesson learned - don't leave the key ion over night!   (ICE - this fries Points or computers in ignition as well as battery!)  (Think - fries PCU)  I hate being the beta tester!!!!!

 

From: 2011-think-ev...@googlegroups.com [mailto:2011-think-ev...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Myles Twete
Sent: Wednesday, November 21, 2012 11:06 AM
To: 2011-think-ev...@googlegroups.com
Subject: RE: Dead 12v battery on 2011 think

 

Guess no one told you about THINK’s 24-hour warrantee towing program…

 

From: 2011-think-ev...@googlegroups.com [mailto:2011-think-ev...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Howard

Sent: Tuesday, November 20, 2012 3:06 PM
To: 2011-think-ev...@googlegroups.com
Subject: RE: Dead 12v battery on 2011 think

 

It has gone to the Clinic for resuscitation.   Made use of all the yearly AAA Dues, today.

 

From: 2011-think-ev...@googlegroups.com [mailto:2011-think-ev...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Howard
Sent: Monday, November 19, 2012 11:58 PM
To: 2011-think-ev...@googlegroups.com
Subject: RE: Dead 12v battery on 2011 think

 

the power limit light is still lit and so is the12v battery light.    AAAARRRRRRGGGGG!!!!!!

 

From: 2011-think-ev...@googlegroups.com [mailto:2011-think-ev...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Howard
Sent: Monday, November 19, 2012 11:48 PM
To: 2011-think-ev...@googlegroups.com
Subject: RE: Dead 12v battery on 2011 think

 

I charged most of the day with the jumper box and a cable with two plugs.  The battery has regained some of the charge but not enough to set off the main contactors . I got a 6 amp charger and another plug, changed out the 3 amp fuse for a 15 amp fuse in the plug and have the charger running for 3 more hours.  It is charging at 13+ volts.   Still no main contactors. The reduced power light is blinking but there is no "motor start" or any other clicks, wheers, whines or traction power.  I won't sleep well tonight.

 

Howard Haynes

From: 2011-think-ev...@googlegroups.com [mailto:2011-think-ev...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Howard
Sent: Monday, November 19, 2012 1:06 PM
To: j...@hawthorneauto.com
Cc: 2011-think-ev...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Dead 12v battery on 2011 think

 

I left the key on for 8hrs +,   The 12v was absolutely dead,( ie no dash lights, no interior light)  the car was stuck in park (ie, no push out of the way) not finding any way to access the 12v battery I went to autozone on foot and found 2 accesory cables with plugs and connected the wires together and plugged one end into a jumper box and the other into the accessory outlet in the Think, the interior light came on.  There was not enough amps to activate the relay to emable me to move the shift lever.  After an hour (I believe the current was less than 2 amps) i was able to step on the brake and move the shift lever once and move the car out of the way so the ICE could leave the car port.  Still not enough power to operate the main contactors to "start " the motor and get the DC to DC converter operating.  Tried to plug in the j1772 to charge the whole thing .  Won't charge with the 12v down too far.  I will try to find a small charger that will work better through the accessory outlet.   More later !!!!!

--
 
 
 

--
 
 
 

--
 
 
 

--
 
 
 

--
 
 
 

--
 
 
 

--
 
 
 

--
 
 
 

--
 
 
 

--
 
 
 

--
 
 
 

[Howard]

I can picture the PCU techs doing an autopsy and scratching their collective head while saying "What The F.......?"   I don't know who makes the PCU but they may be saying to them selves   ???????    I assume? that Think has a source that supplies the PCU and they are asking the source "why?" It does take a while (months, years, eons ) for the process to travel up and down the chain.  Pointy haired managers cause the process to last longer!!! Or short circuit it altogether.  Right Miles?

 

With only 1000 units out there the weak links have yet to be found.  I am very pleased with my blue car.  Kicking myself for lapses of memory.     At least we haven't put out 80,000 to 120,000 for these cars!!!

 

From: 2011-think-ev...@googlegroups.com [mailto:2011-think-ev...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Myles Twete
Sent: Thursday, November 22, 2012 11:14 AM
To: 2011-think-ev...@googlegroups.com
Subject: RE: Dead 12v battery on 2011 think

 

Who knows?  It’s a black box.  Get me a schematic and I could probably offer my educated guess.  Assuming the PCU needs replacement, it must be more than just embedded firmware losing its memory---unless boot loader segment goes with it... Evidently the PCU doesn’t shut off its energy draw at 10.5v or some other reasonable low 12v battery voltage but instead it just keeps drawing power---I’d guess at some point a hardware latch-up occurs.

 

I’ve not heard anyone with contacts on the THINK end explain why this happens…so we’re just left with vectors that can cause the death scenario and knowledge that the risk is high if the battery gets depleted while the PCU is drawing power from the 12v battery.

 

-MT

 

From: 2011-think-ev...@googlegroups.com [mailto:2011-think-ev...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Richard Samuels
Sent: Thursday, November 22, 2012 10:54 AM
To: 2011-think-ev...@googlegroups.com
Subject: RE: Dead 12v battery on 2011 think

 

What causes the PCU to brick?

--
 
 
 

[bill dvorak]

Jim,
If the cause of the bricked PCU is overheating then what about the 5 donated Thinks? My understating that this one circumstance would have been less likely cause for the 4 Thinks in Evansville.

Is there a collection of various ways to brick a CPU?
Bill

[Leon G]

can  the PSU generation 1 still be replaced? i here that unit is no longer available?

Op maandag 19 november 2012 22:05:50 UTC+1 schreef Howard het volgende: